Words and perceptions and usage

[Armaddict]

As noted in previous threads on topics similar to this:

"No sexual discrimination in game" does not mean that the Zalanthan populace is woke as fuck.  It means that systemically, there is nothing that promotes an idea that men are better than women or that homosexuality is a character flaw.  The key word is systemic.

The idea that there will be no misogyny, or that there will be no people with varying levels of comfort with different things, or that everyone empathizes with the evils of slavery (not brought up here, but it's actually in the same category) is a mischaracterization of what discrimination actually is.  Characters have flaws, and some of them will likely have THOSE kind of character flaws.  The beauty of this is that it allows for these 'misuse' slipups in our transference between the vocabulary and usage in different worlds, and that we we don't have to learn a different language AND attach the same feeling to that different language that we have in ours.

So...that dude over there, might say some awfully sexist things.  But it's likely to draw irritation from people around them (which I see happen often enough), and it's never going to be a viewpoint that is mirrored by any group, government, or movement.  There will never be (or shouldn't be) any armageddon model that says men can progress further than women, or women further than men, or attain things that the opposite sex is just not allowed to do.  But that doesn't mean that Joe Schmoe over there can't decide he doesn't want a bunch of women sitting with him because their voices irritate him, or from Plain Jane deciding that all these dudes are just brainless horndogs and doesn't want them around.  The majority of people will think anything approaching sexism is a really really strange mindset.  But those approaches will never inflict any hinderance on people's characters, but that doesn't mean weird mindsets don't exist.

ETA:  I'd actually love for an actual discrimination group to rise as a group of fanatics, a bunch of incel men or some shit.  Not because it needs representation or anything of that nature, but just because I'd be eagerly awaiting my smugface as a Lady Templar arrived to drop fireballs on their heads and send them scattering to the winds.  Tek loves women, they drop his fireballs just as much as men do, and you can't argue with that.

[Dan]

a vulgar female part

a vulgar female part

jfc I'm done.

Some of you I believe are well intentioned and just genuinely don't get it but I give up.

I really just give up.

Have fun y'all.

I mean, 7DV also included vulgar male part in his response, which you decided not to quote and his words were obviously not intending to be offensive if you go by the definition of the word vulgar. "Making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude."  I thought that was what we were discussing, and I think most people seem to be coming from a place of good intentions.

I think there is a place for vulgarity.  Vulgarity does not automatically include sexual discrimination.

[Ender]

I think there is a place for vulgarity.  Vulgarity does not automatically include sexual discrimination.

Yes, but the two insults 7DV came up with are NOT equal when it comes to how those sort of insults have been used within our real life culture.  One is directed at a gender that has been systematically repressed and using their gendered body parts have been used to dehumanize and make less than for hundreds of years.  Using those insults that are DEEPLY STEEPED in hundreds of years of misogyny and just asking people not to take them as misogynistic is a monumental task that is simply unfair to ask.  Asking for equality in gendered insults is what is missing the point entirely. 

In our society calling someone a dick is punching up, calling someone a pussy is punching down due to the way our society has treated women and men differently and still treats them differently.  It all together sucks that it's not equal, but it's the way it is.

So in Arm I see lots of arguments about how gendered insults could have developed, BUT THEY DIDN'T is the simple answer.  Currently as is gendered insults are against the rules laid out by Nergal and not on theme for Armageddon.  That means that despite the fact that gendered insults COULD be a thing in Zalanthas, THEY SIMPLY AREN'T is the answer.

[Armaddict]

I find it incredibly ironic how the defense of the differences between being called a 'dick' and a 'cunt' outside of direct anatomical references can in itself come off as misogynist.

So in Arm I see lots of arguments about how gendered insults could have developed, BUT THEY DIDN'T is the simple answer.  Currently as is gendered insults are against the rules laid out by Nergal and not on theme for Armageddon.  That means that despite gendered insults COULD be a thing in Zalanthas, THEY SIMPLY AREN'T is the answer.

Kind of a giant leap for the sake of an argument.  Censorship baaaad.

[Ender]

I find it incredibly ironic how the defense of the differences between being called a 'dick' and a 'cunt' outside of direct anatomical references can in itself come off as misogynist.

So in Arm I see lots of arguments about how gendered insults could have developed, BUT THEY DIDN'T is the simple answer.  Currently as is gendered insults are against the rules laid out by Nergal and not on theme for Armageddon.  That means that despite gendered insults COULD be a thing in Zalanthas, THEY SIMPLY AREN'T is the answer.

Kind of a giant leap for the sake of an argument.  Censorship baaaad.

Wow, getting called a misogynist for trying to explain than sexism is a thing that existed and still is pervasive in our society and still causes disparity in how we communicate with each other.  That's new.  Did I unlock some kind of achievement?  "No the people trying to point out how the systemic oppression of women over countless generations causes gendered insults to carry the weight of that systemic sexism and misogyny are the real misogynists."

[nessalin]

Trimmed, unlocked, and moved back to General.

Will be locked and moved for further trimming if things cannot be kept both civil and on topic.

[triste]

In our society calling someone a dick is punching up, calling someone a pussy is punching down due to the way our society has treated women and men differently and still treats them differently.  It all together sucks that it's not equal, but it's the way it is.

Punching up/down discourse is terribly divisive, how about (1) No punching at all (2) Everyone roll with punches equally. Saying "that's the way it is" literally will change nothing. Refusing to have an egalitarian mindset will never win us egalitarianism, so check language like this punching up / punching down crud.

In the thread that got deleted before, Ender and I had a discussion where we agreed everything that was complained about by OP could have been handled by existing rules and complaint mechanisms. Ender agreed with this, but said this discussion served as a larger call out / message to the community. So what is our goal? Adding these genital words to https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular ? I sure hope not, I don't think that reflects well on game / search results. Is our goal here to debate if sexism is bad? I think we all agree, but remember any statements like "Group X is better than Group Y" is bigotry and sexism itself, don't do that or imply differential treatment is needed, that's counterproductive. I would like us all to be more egalitarian, but in general we all seem to agree sexism is bad.

Looks like perhaps our goals are accomplished here, what's still in question?

[Halcyon]

I am not any sort of protected class, but, I find insults interchangeable.  What matters to me is the level of vocal inflection or threat, and the how likely the speaker seems to an act of violence.

Would it be less jarring to agree on ten or so nonsense words in order of level of offense intended?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh, I've got my solution.

I won't use certain words, and will only insult people with their own gender, if I bother using gender at all. I'm pretty secure in feeling as though I don't engage in sexism in any way as a character.

The rest of this, I'll leave it to be. In the end, I do agree that I want Delirium and other people dealing with the same issues she's facing to have fun and play, and if I can get that out of them, I'm good. I probably won't be perfect in their eyes, but that's alright; I'll concede a little and they will too, and we'll get by.

[Pariah]

I would like to say that issues should be solved at the lowest level possible.

If I say something on one of my dudes that pisses you off personally as the player, and you drop an ooc about it, I'm more than not going to stop doing said thing.

Give people a chance to correct their behavior and stop wishing for staff to act as a security blanket.

We are all probably WELL over 18 who are commenting here so we don't need staff to decided everything for us.  They got better shit to do than referee personal feeling disputes.

It's the same as when you have a job and one of your coworkers pisses you off or bothers you in some way.  First step should be to tell them it bothers you.  If you run to a manager or boss every time you get offended you're going to be a perpetual state of offense.

I'm not dismissing that it might be a real feeling and bother you, but I am saying you need to own it and not expect the world to change without any effort on your part.

If that same scenario from earlier happens and you ooc me that I'm upsetting you or whatever and I snub you or dismiss it, then do a player complaint and let staff have a conversation with me.  That's when you need a third party, not before.

[creeper386]

If I say something on one of my dudes that pisses you off personally as the player, and you drop an ooc about it, I'm more than not going to stop doing said thing.

Based on responses I've seen on GDB and on Discord. I don't think this is a good idea.

But also based on response from staff I don't think the other way is a good idea either. So probably I'll just stop playing with people that in my opinion would rather be offensive then actually get creative

[hyzhenhok]

The trope that a vulgar cuss word is "uncreative" isn't very helpful in this discussion. It's something conservative parents tell their 9 year old to discourage him from cussing.  There is literally no word you can create on your own that packs the punch of actual English swear words, because the impact depends on what the listener understands it to mean. Like any other, they're used because they express and are understood to have a particular meaning. You can't "creative" your way into making someone else feel what you actually meant by an insult you just made up on the spot.

I mean, look at the "Zalanthan cusswords" proposed in the other thread. They're mostly just variations of shit and fuck. If you want to translate a swear word into English, you use an English swear word!

Now, it can absolutely be true that these words make some of our players uncomfortable and are misused by people who are violating the no-sexism rule to the point that banning might be a reasonable choice. That might be true without having to cast aspersions that someone running a character with a potty mouth is necessarily prejudiced, ignorant, or uncreative.

I think after these discussions I'm leaning more towards the harsher ban side of things than I was originally, but please stop the bad linguistics takes about cuss words. They make me sad.

[Medivh]

There is literally no word you can create on your own that packs the punch of actual English swear words, because the impact depends on what the listener understands it to mean. Like any other, they're used because they express and are understood to have a particular meaning. You can't "creative" your way into making someone else feel what you actually meant by an insult you just made up on the spot.

I mean, look at the "Zalanthan cusswords" proposed in the other thread. They're mostly just variations of shit and fuck. If you want to translate a swear word into English, you use an English swear word!

I do think that slurs like stump or sharp hit all of that; they are creative, insulting, and perfectly Zalanthan. These also aren't made up on the spot; they are many years old.

This is just one of those hard to do things that needs time to happen. Someone has to push fitting, catchy slurs onto people IG. Tuluki from that cussword thread is pretty good, but a lot of the other ones are too long.

I'll start throwing the N'Wah, S'Wit, and Fetcher out if you do. 

[creeper386]

To me though, there is more then just words. As someone who regularly pissed people off without ever trying to, tone plays a huge role in it, so does body langauge. Using these combined with probably anything you say, you can probably get your point across. Sure it isn't as easy as just using an English curse word.

But for the most part, I don't see a lot of god damns or jesus christ despite those being pretty common at least in America. We already take measures to use Zalanthan themed stuff. Disparaging words based on gender is not Zalanthan.

I've been told in a request that staff look into other players word usages that I was bringing RL baggage into the game(Which by the way staff. Pretty rude way to word things) I think if you are using any word as an insult because of it's real life shock and awe value, the user of the words are just as much bringing real life baggage into the game.

[oggotale]

Did you read my post above? These insults are in context because they reference the genitals, a taboo subject in Zalanthas (which is also the reason they are swear words in real life). It has nothing to do with sexism why these are still relevant.

Except for bitch which makes no sense. Sorry about the length.

I skimmed it but I'm not convinced.

wrt to the reason I'm not convinced - I do believe the IRL usage of the word is based on some amount of gendered expectations/stereotypes that would NOT exist in Zalanthas and I find your theory of the same exact thing emerging from this alternative non-gendered route to be a stretch (maybe it's more applicable to the modern usage of the word cunt, less so dick and definitely not bitch, as you already mentioned)

I mean, consider that "nudist" barely has the same derogatory connotation (relatively speaking) even though people do disapprove of nudity deeply.

Here's another steaming hot take: We're used to it now, but the word "fucked" in much of it's usage is ALSO non-sensical in the Zalanthan gender-neutral context.

[oggotale]

As noted in previous threads on topics similar to this:

"No sexual discrimination in game" does not mean that the Zalanthan populace is woke as fuck.  It means that systemically, there is nothing that promotes an idea that men are better than women or that homosexuality is a character flaw.  The key word is systemic.

The idea that there will be no misogyny, or that there will be no people with varying levels of comfort with different things, or that everyone empathizes with the evils of slavery (not brought up here, but it's actually in the same category) is a mischaracterization of what discrimination actually is.  Characters have flaws, and some of them will likely have THOSE kind of character flaws.  The beauty of this is that it allows for these 'misuse' slipups in our transference between the vocabulary and usage in different worlds, and that we we don't have to learn a different language AND attach the same feeling to that different language that we have in ours.

So...that dude over there, might say some awfully sexist things.  But it's likely to draw irritation from people around them (which I see happen often enough), and it's never going to be a viewpoint that is mirrored by any group, government, or movement.  There will never be (or shouldn't be) any armageddon model that says men can progress further than women, or women further than men, or attain things that the opposite sex is just not allowed to do.  But that doesn't mean that Joe Schmoe over there can't decide he doesn't want a bunch of women sitting with him because their voices irritate him, or from Plain Jane deciding that all these dudes are just brainless horndogs and doesn't want them around.  The majority of people will think anything approaching sexism is a really really strange mindset.  But those approaches will never inflict any hinderance on people's characters, but that doesn't mean weird mindsets don't exist.

ETA:  I'd actually love for an actual discrimination group to rise as a group of fanatics, a bunch of incel men or some shit.  Not because it needs representation or anything of that nature, but just because I'd be eagerly awaiting my smugface as a Lady Templar arrived to drop fireballs on their heads and send them scattering to the winds.  Tek loves women, they drop his fireballs just as much as men do, and you can't argue with that.

Nah this aint it.

Insults are built by social games with wide participation. Not by individual's deviating from the norm in the society.
Let us accept that the following sentiment may realistically exist for some individual people in Zalanthas "i hate woman in particular, more than men, I believe (for whatever reason) that women morally ought to do X and men Y" - even if such is the case, it justifies RPING misogyny which would be this individual's actions/thoughts, it does NOT justify the presence of socially recognized/known gendered insults that everyone understands (e.g. bitch in a deregotary term - realistically this is akin to your character saying "You female dog!" it would  be nonsenstical for him since, even though HE is misogynistic, society is gender neutral, hence bitch never took on those meanings in Zalanthas - or shouldn't have"

Now your point was that "but this sentiment exists and we're just using a real-life term that reflects the same sentiment, if we can't use this term, we can't express that sentiment" AND THAT'S RIGHT THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE.
For e.g. in a society with NO RACISM, you would NOT have a concept of any "racist slang", any bigotry would have to be communicated using known words without insults (since those insults would not exist)

Based on the post what you seem to WANT is - person uses IRL misogynistic insults to express misogyny - society disapproves

But step 1 itself should not be possible since the person has no reason to attach those misogynistic sentiments to that word without the wider social game.
And if he comes up with his own "similar" insults, everyone else should be confused first and disapproving second (assuming they gaf)