Words and perceptions and usage

[ShaiHulud]

Seeing some posts lately about old necker use and now cunt and other words..when is it enough? How much do we want to follow current rl trends of appropriations? When will it end? Can I say dick, bitch, cunt, whore anymore? How far is the rl safety, politically proper talk gonna go? I hope that we all are aware of things in rl, but to enforce every measure in this game..is something I don't want to see. Arm becoming disney pg is what some maybe want. I don't. This is an adult game, and adults know how to deal and handle this without crying some real life association.
If this is the direction of the game...to limit expression for safety of a few..let me know now.
I digress, you discuss.

[Brytta Léofa]

I like playing with you, man.

I think this is an issue that's really hard to discuss right now.

Broadly speaking I trust the staff to issue reasonable (maybe not perfect but also not catastrophically terrible) guidelines on this.

[Khorm]

armageddon explores things like racism and slavery and rape.

i do not believe the game could continue to function without an evolving response to what is or is not culturally appropriate. people just flat out would not play the game. people wouldn't staff the game. it would turn from a heavily niche experience to a near impossibly niche experience and it would just die.

these thematic elements still exist even if you cant use the world necker. they are ideas that continue to be central to the identity of the game and whether or not someone uses cunt pejoratively doesn't change that.

i do not buy the argument that changing these things makes it more soft or pg or whatever else threatens the experience of the game. nothing is lost if tomorrow someone will have to think up something other than cunt to insult you. you potentially gain a more engaged player or players who do not feel like they're playing with people who are stuck in an outdated mental space.

[Pariah]

I am unabashedly on the side of no censorship.

But be that as it may, I described why and debated this point in another thread and it was cut out and pruned.

I'm honestly not sure if we are allowed to talk about things that upset people if you don't agree with them.  And that makes me sad.

[Inks]

I am very pro cunt, as I play my rinthis like English chavs or ocker Australians in speech style (which is pretty much lore it has been going on so long, and amazing).

That being said I can understand the point of Delerium.

Necker was stupid anyway, and was always being used like nigger as time went on, and I always prefer sharps anyway. Gyppo absolutely had to go too, any real life racial stuff can get fucked.

But these are both on the same announcement, so I am open to clarification for sure. Among the top 30 swears in English, about 28 are references to private parts.

So I am pro cock, cockhead and cunt. If it is changed I am not about to start torching the place, but I feel limiting rp in this way does more harm than good overall, in terms of realism and flow.

Cunt is a pretty common word here between mates. "Ow ya going cunt?!" Is not uncommon to be shouted across the street to a male friend. Really only Boomers and up are even offended by it here.

Imms should clarify, and Delerium has every right to bring it up unless there is a later post retracting it, or clarifying.

[Maso]

*sigh*

I'm also on the side of no censorship. I think it just hinders creative expression and that is really what this game is all about. Vulgar and obscene characters are part of that. When words like cunt, twat, cock and dick become banned from all forms of creative media (e.g. books.. and films etc) then sure, we should probably follow suit.. At this juncture, I think it's a bit overboard.

We are also a multi-cultural game, the idea of a word like 'cunt' being a gendered insult is, as far as I can tell, broadly an American thing. These words, while they may have double meaning, are so far culturally and etymologically removed now from being gendered that I find it impossible to even try and be insulted by them in that sense. I also take full credit for inventing the word 'twat' when I was five.. while I was trying to look for something LESS offensive than "prat" or "twit" and put the two together. Whoops.

At this point I would consider any of the above swear words to be homonyms rather than gendered insults. Again, maybe cultural, but I don't think I've ever actually called a woman a cunt.

Anyway, from Wiki:

Cunt (/kʌnt/) is a vulgar word for the vulva or vagina and is also used in a variety of other ways, including as a term of disparagement. Reflecting national variations, cunt can be used as a disparaging and obscene term for a woman in the United States, an unpleasant or stupid man or woman in the United Kingdom, or a contemptible man in Australia and New Zealand.[1][2][3] However, in Australia and New Zealand it can also be a neutral or positive term when used with a positive qualifier (e.g., "He's a good cunt").[4][5] The term has various derivative senses, including adjective and verb uses.

Feminist writer and English professor Germaine Greer argues that cunt "is one of the few remaining words in the English language with a genuine power to shock"

Mostly the last line is what I found most poignant. We shouldn't be so quick and blasé about limiting our vocabulary. Removing cunt would be, per Germaine Greer, removing one of the few remaining words with the genuine power to shock.. and well.. our creativity needs that option. Whether it is a well-spoken character at the very fucking obscene end of their tether or it is the day to day language of an extremely vulgar character.


Edited for typos, I'm still pre-coffee.

[hyzhenhok]

Just to shortly make the point I made in the other thread -- a lot of words and phrases have multiple meanings. As Maso points out, the usage of "cunt" even IRL is not a monolith, it's not always negative, and it's not always an insult that operates by implying simply being a woman is bad or contemptible. It absolutely can be the latter way IRL, but it's not the only way the word is used and interpreted.

In Zalanthas, we should be able to use words such as these with the assumption that, because there is no sexism in Zalanthas, such words will never be meant or interpreted ICly in a way that infers sexist intent or a sexist insult. So if I see the c-word, I know that what is meant cannot be "insult suggesting being a woman is bad" and is instead "insult suggesting person is annoying, stupid, or stubborn" or "non-insulting but vulgar term meaning 'person.'"

If a player's conduct suggests otherwise, they can be dealt with accordingly. But just using the word itself shouldn't be enough.

[tiny rainbow]

I really don't like that after Delerium wrote really well thought out replies on the other thread, and they got wiped as well as insulting stuff to be fair, and then it's the same again...

For every person willing to argue on a forum about something, there's maybe nine others that are going to look at it and think "I'm not going to get involved..." (I remember a very popular online game did a study on the actual % of people actually used forums) but DO get turned off visiting a place after they get called sexist crap...
And it stands out a lot more because the background story of the world specifically says that there's uncontroversial equality, so it just seems more obnoxious when people let gross stuff from RL seep in that many people are already sick of seeing.

In both Australia and the UK it is NOT used by most people, and the way it is used as an insult IS 100% misogynistic and it means exactly the same female body parts and condensed hundreds of years of hate... There is no getting away from that, and that's why it doesn't fit with Zalanthas... REGARDLESS of all the political arguing, it's just against the actual setting to be using gendered insults...

[Maso]

In both Australia and the UK it is NOT used by most people, and the way it is used as an insult IS 100% misogynistic.

I'm sorry. But honestly, I think this statement is simply not true. It may have been misogynistic in the 13th Century... but 900 years later it has evolved somewhat. It just happens to be a homonym.

When a person in the UK says, "You're such a fucking cunt." - they mean.. from their heart "I'm really fucking angry at you right now and you're being an awful horrible person." they do not mean "You're being such a despicable, disgusting woman." When an Aus person says, "Shit, that guy was such funny cunt." (we also do this in the UK tbh) they mean "That person was really funny" they do not mean "That dude was such a funny awful, despicable woman."

It just.. doesn't track.

It is, however, EXTREMELY rare... for the words 'cunt' or 'twat' to be actually be used (in the UK) in reference to a woman's body parts. That only really comes into play if someone is actually trying to be really super filthy, dirty.

Honestly, I barely barely ever use these words at all RL, but they may come out in extreme circumstances, and I'm not sure I have ever used them IG (because my characters are all sweetness and rainbows.. obviously).. but I just can't not defend the freedom to use the full breadth of language within a creative environment.

[valeria]

I find the current prevalence of people in the game calling other people cunts jarring, not because I get insulted by these words on an OOC level or because I think nobody should be allowed to say "dick" in game, but because the context of the way these words are currently being used is not consistent with the setting.

It's inappropriate to call someone in game a pussy, because it doesn't make sense with the game's theme.  Women are just as capable as men.  It's inappropriate to call someone a faggot, because homosexuality is not taboo or viewed as some moral vice.

But lately, I've been seeing this forumlation a lot as an insult: "Quit being such a cunt." or "You're such a cunt."  Or simply just, "Cunt," said in an angry and insulting situation.  I haven't seen cunt used in some positive fashion, like someone joking with a friend that they're a cunt.  I haven't seen this formulation used with the word "cock" instead.

If "quit being such a pussy" isn't setting appropriate, why is "quit being such a cunt?" 

It's jarring to me in the same way that someone saying "I was gone fishing" instead of "I was krathstruck" is jarring, or the way someone saying "I could really use a sandwich" is jarring.  Not because of the RL nature or the word cunt or because someone might be offended behind the keyboard, but because the way people are currently using it doesn't make sense as an insult within the setting.

[Inks]

It is used in so many ways here, much less so in the upper middle and higher classes, sure. Almost always whether endearment (more common than an insult from my experience) or a challenging insult, it IS directed at other males, sure. Whatever the etymology of the word the way it is used by men here is so far detatched from denigrating an actual vagina.

Personally, if Imms could clarify current policy it would help get the aggressive vitriol that everyone seems to be moving towards under control.

Anyone who is denigrating Delerium for talking about something she feels very strongly about doesn't care about free speech at all.

Again, I remember ignoring the cunt/cock bans when Nergal made this sudden announcement with no follow up all those years ago, but knowing that the no real world racial language stuff was not on. I have seen plenty of animations even back then that continued to use it. In my ideal world these swear words will be clarified by Imms as being fine to use.

Peace guys. Don't attack each other just debate your point. Cheers m8.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've used cunt one of two ways in the game. 1. to insult a person, and 2. during erotic scenes, after the other person used it. I've used cock in precisely the same way, though when I use it during erotic scenes, I don't wait for the other person to do it.

I've always assumed that cunt is worse than cock in terms of how players could perceive it, but I've never thought it to be a mysoginistic tool, in the game. I'm aware that I am a male, and possibly simply don't understand, yet, there are females in this thread who also don't really think of it in the mysoginistic manner.

But.

Despite the idea that it's just a word, and despite my desire to not see the use retarded, and despite my hatred of censorship, more important to me is that my players, who I crave and want to play with, who I have spent 20+ years with, can find some comfort here in the midst of our MCB. Like Triste says, maybe it's really just about us collectively, and maybe we'll just be alright if it goes away. Maybe that is the greater good that keeps us all killing one another out in the sands.

SO, I propose that rather than simple censorship, we just look for new lingo, and we use it, and maybe cunt dies it's own natural death. I honestly think it's not such a bad idea to find setting appropriate material for "cursing". A lot of people willingly gave up karma a few years back to encourage the idea of mundane-ness. Can we willingly create setting appropriate cursing?

I think we can. I think we can do it without censorship, frankly, if we want to. I will work towards it, because Delirium's (and others') feelings are more important than my desire to use an insult is.

Also - we really suffer when we struggle to communicate in good faith. Mind the personal attacks when we discuss things. I hate seeing discussions ruined by barbs and jabs. You don't have to agree with someone to be relatively civil. And we're grown, so ...

... We can do that too.

[mansa]

I find insults like cuck and faggot to have no place in this community.

Other banned words should be a squaw, a kike, a tranny, and more.

Players should be able to play our game and interact with our community without having to be ashamed/threatened by others within the playerbase.

[WarriorPoet]

I am keen for a free for all as far as curses insults go. BUT, if me avoiding cunt and necker make others feel more comfortable, it is the smallest of sacrifices.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I find insults like cuck and faggot to have no place in this community.

Other banned words should be a squaw, a kike, a tranny, and more.

Players should be able to play our game and interact with our community without having to be ashamed/threatened by others within the playerbase.

I've never heard of squaw being offensive, but ... now that I read up on it, hmmm. I've also never seen it used in the game, nor have I seen the others mentioned here.

[Riev]

I am keen for a free for all as far as curses insults go. BUT, if me avoiding cunt and necker make others feel more comfortable, it is the smallest of sacrifices.

[Pariah]

It's such a slippery slope right.

Say we ban cunt because it could be referred to as a weakness of female blah blah.

What about when I see someone in pain in game and decide to call him a sissy.  Is that now some horrible thing because people could use it to describe gay folks?

Context is a thing right. How about we stop trying to neuter language and assume positive intent till proven otherwise then just player complaint if need be?

I've known English people who use cunt as a noun, verb and adjective.  It's the same way as saying that "That's gay." It's being used as a pejorative for bad.  Does that mean that saying that in that sentence means, I hate gay people or down with gay people! Absolutely not.

Stop trying to police others use of words please.

[Pariah]

I don't think I've ever used the word, in game, so as Triste and others are saying it probably won't be gamebreaking if it does hit the list of "banned words".

It just feels super silly to me to limit profanity.  I've always personally hated the people who play every character like they got shit in their mouth. "Oy ya fuckwit, whot ya thunk doin my ead in." But I don't make posts trying to get their horrible made up accents pulled from the game, I just try my best to decipher it and roll my eyes ooc.

Being offended is alright and part of life.  People offend me every day, don't need to start a crusade to stop all things offensive because of it.

[Halaster]

This is a good discussion.  As long as we keep it civilized I think it's worthwhile to have.

My person, NON-STAFF view, is that we're limited by the English language as that's the primary language of the game.  I think that if someone calls me a cunt in game they're using that word (as you do with all curse words) for emphasis or to make a point.  To spice up their language for effect.  Ideally if everyone were perfect role-players they could use the word tregil or something like that instead and it would have the same affect on me.  But me as a player, I don't view the word "tregil" as impactful as "cunt".  So when the other person uses "cunt" it grabs my attention more than "tregil".  Now if I were a perfect RP'er, I'd pick up on the emotional impact of "tregil".  But I'm not, and I don't.

What's my point?  This is a good opportunity for character development.  Decide "ok, these Armageddon words are really triggers for my character.  If someone calls my Amos a tregil, I'm going to have him go bonkers". Or ,"when someone mentions 'cock', my character will go into a fit of laughter".

At least, that's what I'm personally going to take from all this - another idea I can think of to further develop my characters.

[Ender]

So I have been thinking about this issue a lot and I think there is a clear disconnect.  No one is asking for a blanket ban against these words as far as I can tell.  What we are asking for is a reaffirmation of this rule:

stop using sexist insults framed against people (e.g. bitch, dick, cunt).

I am not saying we should ban words, I am saying we should ban the use of specifically targeted sexist insults.  "Oy cunt give me that wrench."  perfectly fine, "I won't listen to you because you're just a cunt." said to a female leader: sexist and not theme appropriate.

I recently saw the latter usage of that sort of insult absolutely framed against a female leader PC by a male leader PC to denigrate her, and I didn't put in a player complaint because I was a 3rd party to it, but maybe I should have.

Currently there is a lot of concern about censorship in Armageddon, but the reality is we censor anything that is not theme appropriate or anachronistic already.  And one theme of armageddon is there is no sexual discrimination in game, and such the language used by the characters in this world needs to reflect that. 

[Pariah]

Another suggestion I would give if something is really upsetting you in game is possibly throwing out an ooc please don't say x, it is hurting my feelings.

I see folks ooc misspelled words or misdirected emotes.

I would not purposely keep calling you a cunt if you OOC'd me about it.  Not because I think it's not warranted to call you one icly.  But because oocly I try not to be an asshole if I can help it.

I feel that the banning of a word is a mechanism for tattling on your fellow player base.  Oohhh pariah said cunt, wish all Pariah said CUNT, get him!

We are all better than that.  And in response for the using it to describe a woman only, well that sounds like a player complaint and not a world altering ban conversation.

[Ender]

If we just have a blanket ban on cunt without targeting the ACTUAL problem (roleplayed misogyny), some player who actually is misogynist or playing a setting defying misogynistic character might start saying to females, "I don't listen to fat, stupid chaltons like you," or "Why don't you go off to a pen you breeding sow." None of these phrases use banned words, but smack of misogyny. TLDR a ban of the word cunt would accomplish nothing (besides harming the playerbase as a whole by applying an arbitrary limitation).

As per Nergal's rule, your examples would already be against the rules.  It's a ban specifically on gendered insults, not a word ban.  Those are two very separate things and seems to be the core of the misunderstanding between both sides arguing right now.

I think almost everyone can agree that targeted misogynistic insults should remain banned.

This whole argument has been brought up because of seeing an uptick in a lot of players using targeted gendered insults, enough that maybe it was time to reaffirm that these sorts of insults are not setting appropriate and let them self correct rather than going through the bureaucracy of putting in multiple player complaints.

[tiny rainbow]

The word means the same thing in the UK and Australia, it's just a reflection of how many hundreds of years this kind of thing has been going on, and that a VERY SMALL amount of people are accepting of it now. It's not normal... It means disgusting BECAUSE it means "something disgusting", because it's from the mindset that female genitalia is disgusting, that's literally the whole meaning and everyone knows it and uses it to mean both things, especially when it comes to sex stuff.

That a VERY SMALL amount of people tolerate it being used as an insult is just a nasty reminder of for how many literally centuries women were treated as property with no votes until the last 100 years...  It's NOT commonly used by MOST people in UK or Australia and it just make no sense that it'd catch on in Zalanthas without that kind of history...

[Bebop]

I feel like there's a lot of commentary here from the male persuasion that doesn't know what it's like irl to be disparaged and undermined daily due to your gender.  It's not something I want to experience IG.

It stands to reason that since we live in a sexist world it makes roleplaying characters that are not sexist intrinsically difficult on all of our parts —- if not impossible.

However, using a woman's genitalia to demean her in the context Ender mentioned is arguably sexist which is against documentation.

There's a million different ways you can insult someone without giving an inkling of sexism.  It's not hard.

I have had powerful, warrior women in full armor have their rivalries described as "quirri fights" and seen many techniques designed to minimize and undermine women in real life used subtly in game.  It's never going to be perfect.  But it can be better and discussions like this are relevant and necessary to ensure that people can play women characters without being undermined on the basis of their character's gender.

At the end of the day Armageddon has always been rated R but women being equal in the world is also an intrinsic part of its composition.  We can have both.  If you think we can't you aren't arguing for a grittier Armageddon you're taking a stance in your ability to be casually sexist.

Right now a lot of you are discussing how to regain and retain players.  It stands to reason that making the game less sexist is one such way to succeed to that end.  If all you have to do is call someone a fucking boot heel instead of genitalia... seems like an easy choice.  Or we could just complain about censorship I guess.

[mansa]

Now, tell your story on how censorship helps player retention, please?

I don't want rape back in the game.

[tiny rainbow]

When it's used as an insult, it definitely does not mean nice sexy happy thing and that's pretty obvious...

And the endless posts that spam out peoples' replies that don't want to have a huge argument just seem the same way Delirium was shouted down... A lot of people don't want to be around those kind of people, and will just leave, and will not argue for hours with people like this on threads like this. And you end up with 3 gross people, 1, that thinks nothing is wrong, and 1 nice person that earnestly believes they are in fact doing the right thing but enables them...

[Bebop]

Now, tell your story on how censorship helps player retention, please?

I don't want rape back in the game.

...but I also don't like to police what people can and cannot do on a game.

Then I'd like my next sorc to have a Mercedes Benz.  Rules for RP exist in the game to create an atmosphere.  That's not policing.

[mansa]

...So why are we pedalling backwards on free expression?
...

ArmageddonMUD is not freedom of expression.

It is an online, multiplayer, text-based MUD that is co-owned by the producers.  It's a private server.  We only play and collaborate together because we agree upon certain rules that have been defined by the staff.

There has never been free expression in the gamespace.   There has always been restrictions of what you can play and how you can play.  This game isn't free speech, and never will be.

[Wday]

I am a little lost. But we all know I can't read or write i just play this game. But use of words such as cunt or calling someone a dick in a harsh world is normal. Yes both sex is equal here but still curse words used in slang is to anger someone. Get someone angry they make rash moves and maybe mistakes which very well can be a plotted plan. Now if you are playing with a group and can tell they do not use such a word, then limit it as you would in real life around groups. But to ban a word sounds a bit tough. (this is on words to do with body parts of any sex)

[Brokkr]

My personal, NON-STAFF, view is this:

I have no problems with people cursing in real life interactions.  I curse in real life interactions.  However, real life in person interactions typically have immediate feedback, primarily through non-verbal reactions, allowing you to read the room and adjust behavior based on cursing.  It is also not one sided, there can be consequences.  People get shunned for persistent behavior around cursing.  I'm sure we've all seen real life fights start because one person was cussing at another.  Feedback and consequences keep a lot of people from going too far, and for the people it doesn't, they are still impacted by other people taking decisions to remove or limit interaction.

We do not have that here.  Player to player it is mostly one sided (you can't react in a way that has immediate, RL impact to the player cursing), we don't have the ability to read the room because our interaction is at the character reaction level and not the player reaction level, and we have a small enough community and anonymity between characters that makes removing yourself from that player not realistic.

And we have some players that are complete assholes.  The kind that will keep doing something repeatedly that annoys or angers others because it annoys or angers others.  Which leads to the need for very clear black/white rules, rather than rules where people are asked to abide by the spirit of something.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Bottom line, I don't mind finding non-gendered words for things. I like the thematic aspect of this.

I also don't like the idea that a curse word might be banned, but more than that, I don't like the idea that a player really feels jarred by seeing it. So I'd rather take a shot at easing that word out of the vocab than losing the player.

Nobody is going to quit playing because they can't say cunt. People might very well stop playing because they're around people who say cunt. And I'm far more concerned about the latter than the former.

Rather than a ban, I'd rather see a concerted attempt to discourage it, though.

[Veselka]

I've used the word a lot on previous PCs. It was probably Deadwood that inspired me to do so. For some reason it felt like low hanging fruit when I made nasty Southerner PCs because it felt analogous to idiotic westerner dinguses who aren't smart enough to be eloquent in an insult.

I will refrain from using the word on future PCs. I don't mind offending PCs, but I do mind offending players inadvertently.

[Pariah]

While some of this has been actual fruitful, good commentary, the whole trend is described below.

[Veselka]

While some of this has been actual fruitful, good commentary, the whole trend is described below.

Just because you don't see something as being an issue doesn't mean it isn't an issue for others. If you've said your peace, you can just back away gracefully.

[650Booger]

I recently played a female character, and my PC clanmates took to calling me derogatory sexxist names, cunt, bitch, etc, because they didn't like my PCs attitude.  that is inappropriate.  I didn't report them though, I simply stored my PC and rerolled to play in another area of the game.  those are words that reflect a toxic and immature mentality, by the players, and I don't want to be around people like that.

[Aruven]

It is blowing my mind that this type of argumentation has pervaded down to a text-based game.

It seems inescapable in life.

I will only type 'Damn' or 'Fuck' as curse words, because I don't know what else isn't allowed. My dialogue is tailored with much focus to make sure I don't offend anyone.

I'd like not to see censoring of anything, but the country I live in, is in a real struggle with some of its foundations and concepts right now. This is a societal thing.

[Aruven]

Currently there is a lot of concern about censorship in Armageddon, but the reality is we censor anything that is not theme appropriate or anachronistic already.  And one theme of armageddon is there is no sexual discrimination in game, and such the language used by the characters in this world needs to reflect that.

This.

[mansa]

... I don't know what else isn't allowed.
...

I think Ender said it well enough:

So I have been thinking about this issue a lot and I think there is a clear disconnect.  No one is asking for a blanket ban against these words as far as I can tell.  What we are asking for is a reaffirmation of this rule:

stop using sexist insults framed against people (e.g. bitch, dick, cunt).

I am not saying we should ban words, I am saying we should ban the use of specifically targeted sexist insults.  "Oy cunt give me that wrench."  perfectly fine, "I won't listen to you because you're just a cunt." said to a female leader: sexist and not theme appropriate.

...

Currently there is a lot of concern about censorship in Armageddon, but the reality is we censor anything that is not theme appropriate or anachronistic already.  And one theme of armageddon is there is no sexual discrimination in game, and such the language used by the characters in this world needs to reflect that.

One simple question:
Am I insulting someone's gender?

[Cabooze]

If someone can't separate the IC from the OOC, finding offense IRL for something insulting in-character, that's really their own problem that they need to work out. Projecting can be a useful roleplay tool, but there's such thing as taking it too far or taking it too personally.

If you're finding real-world impact by something said or done virtually, you need to take a step back and realize that it's not the same reality. If a character wants to actively discriminate against the opposite sex, it shouldn't be translated to real-world misogyny or misandry. It's just the character and how the player is choosing to represent their creation.

[Delirium]

It is a higher standard of roleplay to properly reflect the gameworld and use gameworld-specific insults.

Insinuating that anyone who dislikes the use of gendered RL insults can't separate character from reality is insulting at best.

You lose nothing by being OOCly considerate of your fellow players while still playing a character who is insulting and mean.

It's the same reason we have consent. Why it's a good idea to not let scenes where you have the power trap another character in place, because it traps the player, as well, and they may very well not have the "log in" stamina you do. It's why we say "of course" if someone low-ranked says they have Gate. It's why we try and throw out an emote to enliven a scene or hint at the reason for the death when we have someone mort'd. Why we use the arrange command to add color to the otherwise basic code. Why we should try not to dominate a scene and ensure other players have a chance to participate and reflect their part in it. Why we often hemote or emote/say less during crowded RPTs so that the purpose of that RPT can continue uninterrupted without making it overly drag on. I could think of many more examples. It's just plain old good manners to try and make sure you are working with with your fellow players instead of trying to win.

In short, we're trying to tell collaborative stories while reflecting a despotic, grimdark world where men and women are equally powerful, and it is entirely possible to add flavor to your dialogue and emotes without breaking immersion with terms that are loaded with RL connotations that do not fit the stated theme of the game.

Again: you lose nothing by being respectful of your fellow players by avoiding gendered insults.

If you feel you do, examine why.

I don't have it in me to retype / repost everything else I said yesterday.

[hyzhenhok]

One simple question:
Am I insulting someone's gender?

It's not simple. The question is whether by simply using a gendered insult, are you actually necessarily insulting their gender?

And IMO, the correct, linguistic answer to that question is no.  Whether "cunt" is necessarily an insult to gender has been addressed already. The idea that "dick" is always an insult to a man about his gender is laughable.

Personally I don't use these words IG because I'm a profanity prude. I won't be terribly upset if the rule is "these words are very triggering and OOCly hurtful to some of our players, so we won't allow them." If that's the logic to the rule, fine. But we don't need to insist that the reasoning is this linguistically false notion that a word is necessarily sexist just because it is gendered, or that anyone who has used or uses these words are being actively sexist.

[Delirium]

The word cunt is far more loaded than the word dick. Cunt implies bitchiness/weakness; dick implies offensiveness/strength.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and uninformed at best.

I can't help but note nobody seems to have much of a problem avoiding the use of dick as an insult, and rarely see it IG.

[Cabooze]

The word cunt is far more loaded than the word dick. Cunt implies bitchiness/weakness; dick implies offensiveness/strength.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and uninformed at best.

I can't help but note nobody seems to have much of a problem avoiding the use of dick as an insult, and rarely see it IG.

Sigh. I guess we can't have this discussion because everyone who disagrees with you are liars or stupid. I don't have anything else to add.

Personal definitions are definitely playing a part in people's perceptions. Dick/Cunt carries the same level of connotation in my experience: It implies the target of the insult is intolerable in one way or another, or is generally rude.

Again: you lose nothing by being respectful of your fellow players by avoiding gendered insults.

If it's an insult or level of disrespect that would be given by the character, the player shouldn't have to censor or change their character to accommodate someone else's IRL sensitivities.

[Brokkr]

One thing I find interesting is that somehow there is a presumption on the part of some people that cunt is a word that can be used.  The "of course its okay!" attitude.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Which kind of infers that everyone actually is ok with limiting which words are used, on some level.  That there is just something in some people's heads that triggers a "but I should be able to use this word" response, for whatever reason.  Which is on you.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, sure, Bro.

But it's being used in the game on purpose, to be vulgar and shock people. To be the dirty hateful people we're trying to portray. So of course we lean heavy on stuff like that to depict ourselves.

IRL, we usually care more about people's perception of us.

[Cabooze]

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

If there was a circumstance that enabled such terminology to be seen as acceptable without eluding to the IRL aspects of where they originate, I can see some iterations sneaking their way ingame. Holmie seems like it could fit, if a stretch.

[tiny rainbow]

There's no reason misogynistic words would be so highly charged if not for the hundreds of years of fucked up institutionalised abuse, torture, murder and sexual imprisonment - Zalanthas went through a different trouser-leg of time where that stuff happened more equally, it makes 0 sense for it to be a go-to word, it's just bad roleplay...

[Delirium]

The word cunt is far more loaded than the word dick. Cunt implies bitchiness/weakness; dick implies offensiveness/strength.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and uninformed at best.

I can't help but note nobody seems to have much of a problem avoiding the use of dick as an insult, and rarely see it IG.

Sigh. I guess we can't have this discussion because everyone who disagrees with you are liars or stupid. I don't have anything else to add.

I didn't call you stupid. I called you uninformed. I called anyone else who takes this stance the same.

As for you, personally, I don't think you are coming from a bad place, but there are other posters who obviously fit in the disingenuous category. Or the deluded. I'm not going to be shy about saying that because I have zero fucks left to give.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being uninformed as long as you're genuinely willing to learn.

I grew up in a racist, misogynist, homophobic family and had to unlearn a lot of things I simply thought were okay.

Things I had no idea were any of the above; I simply didn't make those connections before I learned otherwise.

You can do it too.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I disagree it's bad roleplay. I DO agree that it might never have evolved as a word, but assuming that somebody using it is engaging in bad roleplay is unfair. We use the tools we have, and sometimes it makes sense to us OOC to use them.

If, after a conversation like this and hopefully, a generally-agreed-upon solution, we still do it, fine. But until things like this get brought  to our attention and we understand the justification, it's just a faulty tool.

[Bebop]

I recently played a female character, and my PC clanmates took to calling me derogatory sexxist names, cunt, bitch, etc, because they didn't like my PCs attitude.  that is inappropriate.  I didn't report them though, I simply stored my PC and rerolled to play in another area of the game.  those are words that reflect a toxic and immature mentality, by the players, and I don't want to be around people like that.

I didn't want to go into it at the time but a big part of the reason I left for a year and stored my last leadership PC was in part due to the sexism I felt I experienced IG and OOC from multiple angles.  I still don't want to go into it.  I am very interested in Tuluk, potentially returning and have had a year to decompress.

However, it's worth noting that now three people here are saying they are witnessing sexism, two of which nudged them completely out of their roles and even the game.

Women feeling safe here on an OOC level and being able to have characters that will not be discriminated against based on gender is absolutely a player retention issue.  A lack of sexism is thematic to the game and is not required for it to be cutthroat and brutal.

[Cabooze]

somehow magical doublepost after/during editing. Must of misclicked quote. Woops.

Regardless, I think language use should be as free form as possible without restricting players too much in how they are able to portray their characters. Certain words should remain banned as they make direct correlations with IRL, but ones that point at the genitals and share similar definitions shouldn't be taken so seriously.

[hyzhenhok]

One thing I find interesting is that somehow there is a presumption on the part of some people that cunt is a word that can be used.  The "of course its okay!" attitude.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Which kind of infers that everyone actually is ok with limiting which words are used, on some level.  That there is just something in some people's heads that triggers a "but I should be able to use this word" response, for whatever reason.  Which is on you.

It's not that surprising. Vulgar labels to declare that the speaker dislikes someone or thinks that they are a jerk are very common type of cursing, and are culturally universal. "Holmes" is not like that. Surely there are curse words that are used like c/b/d in sirihish and allundean and bendune, though they might not be gendered.

The problem here is in English, almost all of the relevant vulgar terms are gendered--even "asshole" is gendered male to my ear. So to translate such insults from sirihish, we have to use the gendered terms or just not use equivalently shocking insults at all. Arm-specific stuff like "tregil face" aren't real replacements; they're more comical than shocking.

Giving up the shock and literary (yes, literary) value of true curse words isn't nothing. I'm not saying it's a huge loss--like I said above, I'd be fine if they are officially banned to accommodate players that find them jarring or always sexist and/or in recognition that they are often used IG by players who are violating the no-sexism rule. But we can make that change without impugning the motives of people who disagree and without misrepresenting linguistic reality.

[Brokkr]

If you are trying to shock the player behind the character, rather than their character, maybe you are doing it wrong.

[Delirium]

If you are trying to shock the player behind the character, rather than their character, maybe you are doing it wrong.

Exactly.

In response to cabooze/Hyz, rather than try to explain it in another way in hopes of being understood, I will repeat myself:

In short, we're trying to tell collaborative stories while reflecting a despotic, grimdark world where men and women are equally powerful, and it is entirely possible to add flavor to your dialogue and emotes without breaking immersion with terms that are loaded with RL connotations that do not fit the stated theme of the game.

[hyzhenhok]

If you are trying to shock the player behind the character, rather than their character, maybe you are doing it wrong.

Why is the game translated into English if we're trying to communicate with characters and not the player behind them? Serious eyeroll.

Do you have a list of sirihish words that are ICly as shocking and insulting as RL curse words that we can use instead?

I'm all for having Zalanthan versions of n'wah, s'wit and fetcher. Until we have something like that, I'm not sure how you communicate "my character is being vulgar and insulting." "'Tok brain" does not do it.

[Delirium]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

[hyzhenhok]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

[Cabooze]

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

Filthy Breeder, Elf lover, Mul fondler. I think those could be some good official additions.

[Bebop]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

So because you can't use one term you now need a list of every existing term out of the millions of combinations that you could use (even though someone just provided you a list.). That's the line of logic you're going with.

So if you can't commit murder you now need a list of every law and regulation in the entire world that you will somehow commit to memory to make sure you don't commit murder.

[Pariah]

I'm totally okay with you saying crazy made up swears.  I love when folks who aren't native speakers of English get mad and say shit like "You dirty mother asshole!" Or some flavor of that. It's entertaining in a "look at him trying" type way.

So is it cool to encourage use of world specific language in my opinion, but I don't think we should be limiting of any language.  Censorship if never good.

Also we can disagree with one another without alluding to we would be okay with RL murder because we aren't bothered by typed words.  Come on now.

[Bebop]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

So because you can't use one term you now need a list of every existing term out of the millions of combinations (even though someone just provided you a list.). That's the line of logic you're going with.

So if you can't commit murder you now need a list of every law and regulation in the entire world that you will somehow commit to memory to make sure you don't commit murder.

Yeah, I'm done, since clearly no one is actually reading what I write. Make someone else your strawman.

I mean it's hard to take this as a real question because it's contextual.  If you call your girlfriend a cunt or bitch IRL it's incredibly demeaning towards women and could spell the end of your relationship.

This kind of thing wouldn't be used in Zalanthas because it would not occur to anyone to insult someone on the basis of sex as genders are equal socially and physically in this world.

Call a human an elf.  Call a southern Lord a Chosen Lord.  Call a Templar by their name without title.  Tell a pristine aide they look like a shit cloak.  Tell a tactical Sergeant they think like a rinth rat and are as craven as one too.  That's just off the top of my head as far as grave contextual insults that could get you outright killed.

All anyone is asking is that documentation be respected and you do not discriminate or insult characters in game on the basis of sex as it is not thematic and against the rules.

You're a long term player so I'm sure you can come up with your own contextual insults that don't require gender.  Saying the staff need to spell this out in documentation came off as disingenuous too me, though perhaps it wasn't meant to be.  By simply not disrespecting and dying to every Templar in your path you show you're capable of understanding grave contextual insults without the staff needing to specify.

[SilkyBoi]

You are still allowed to acknowledge the templar you are not trying to piss off's gender. You have to with Lady Templar or Lord Templar.

For me it's like dick is acknowledging you are a male asshole or cunt is female asshole.

The only time I personally get annoyed is when they say something like Don't  be a pussy, because that does imply inferiority.

I tend to just use asshole.

[Hauwke]

I really don't like that after Delerium wrote really well thought out replies on the other thread, and they got wiped as well as insulting stuff to be fair, and then it's the same again...

For every person willing to argue on a forum about something, there's maybe nine others that are going to look at it and think "I'm not going to get involved..." (I remember a very popular online game did a study on the actual % of people actually used forums) but DO get turned off visiting a place after they get called sexist crap...
And it stands out a lot more because the background story of the world specifically says that there's uncontroversial equality, so it just seems more obnoxious when people let gross stuff from RL seep in that many people are already sick of seeing.

In both Australia and the UK it is NOT used by most people, and the way it is used as an insult IS 100% misogynistic and it means exactly the same female body parts and condensed hundreds of years of hate... There is no getting away from that, and that's why it doesn't fit with Zalanthas... REGARDLESS of all the political arguing, it's just against the actual setting to be using gendered insults...

Like to point out as an Australian, I've never heard or seen cunt used in a mysonginistic way here, (ymmv though) In fact, 90% of the time I've seen it used it's been used in a friendly way.

[Gentleboy]

I played a very dismissive female character once and she was PK'd and the reason I was told by the other PC was for "being such a cunt" and then he killed me. That felt horrible. It felt like I was being killed for being an 'uppity' woman who didn't comply and then being called a cunt? That made me really sick.

That use of it was not fun or cool or supported by the docs.

[Brytta Léofa]

One reason that it's hard to have this discussion is that we all live in slightly different worlds.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Meanwhile I'm over here having no idea that "holmes" and "ese" are English (or English-adjacent?) words.

I played a very dismissive female character once and she was PK'd and the reason I was told by the other PC was for "being such a cunt" and then he killed me. That felt horrible. It felt like I was being killed for being an 'uppity' woman who didn't comply and then being called a cunt? That made me really sick.

In your position I probably would have assumed the gendered insult was simply picked to match my character's gender, i.e. exactly analogous to being killed "for being such a dick." I'm not criticizing your reaction--it's easy for me to be oblivious to this stuff because, for one, I've never had it directed at me IRL.

[Brokkr]

ese is a Spanish origin word, but used in both Spanish or English.

holmes was the last name of a boxer in the 80s and isn't limited to hispanic communities, but at times very prevalent there.

Both are very California.

[Krath]

I do not think the words Cunt, dick, cock, or pussy are in the same category as the Ni, Fa, Gy, and such words at all.

Two completely different spectrums. I do not think word that describe body parts, no matter how crude, should be removed from use.

[Dar]

One thing I find interesting is that somehow there is a presumption on the part of some people that cunt is a word that can be used.  The "of course its okay!" attitude.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Which kind of infers that everyone actually is ok with limiting which words are used, on some level.  That there is just something in some people's heads that triggers a "but I should be able to use this word" response, for whatever reason.  Which is on you.


ese is a Spanish origin word, but used in both Spanish or English  American.

holmes was the last name of a boxer in the 80s and isn't limited to hispanic communities, but at times very prevalent there.

Both are very California.

I suspect this is due to a generous amount of books and movies that depict rough and harsh characters who use the word 'cunt' a lot. Most of those stories are not of modern times. Deadwood, pirate movies, various iterations of Dickens, etc.      Ese and Holmes are words that are a lot more modern and are avoided due to being anachronistic.



If anyone remembers Kozh. The gangly, close-cropped youth. A Troll character that played in the Byn and heckled 'everything'. He was once nearly killed by a Bynner for being a 'cunt'.


http://www.thepopcornmuncher.com/2017/07/29/11-best-c-word-in-movies/

Ironic that majority of these movies are not American. And near predominantly the word cunt was used towards a male person.

[Dar]

It's funny actually. Awhile back, the situation called for me to use the word Water Fat. As in, a person who drinks a lot of water and is therefore soft, lazy, and wouldn't survive in the desert. And I stared at the typed out sentence wondering. Because I wouldn't use the word 'fat' as a pejorative. But water fat fits the theme so well.

I ended up not using it.


Found the character whom I wanted to use it on dead within the same rl day out in the wilds.

[Inks]

Yeah I think most of us have our own careful considerations we don't use. Bitch and tok-bitch are ones I never use due to using female as a negative. I saw a pc calling mine a cocksucker a while back which felt jarring as there is no sexual prejudice in Zalanthas, and the guy was just clearly calling my PC "a fag" which makes zero sense as an insult. But to call someone genitals is so ingrained in our language, it seems natural in Zalanthas for me.

Especially since nudity is still largely taboo in civilised areas. I wouldn't even consider using it on my tribals due to a massive difference in culture, traditions and taboos than city trash, and I can't recall tribals ever using it in front of me, other than ones who had been career Bynners and corrupted deeply by their merc lifestyle.

If open genital nudity was completely non taboo in the documentation, then these insults would make no sense in game.

Taken from documentaion:
"Allanak is a rigidly traditional society, and this has affected the city's trends in fashion throughout the years. For example, the modesty of one's attire is considered before comfort, despite the high temperatures citizens must deal with daily. "

And Tuluk:
"Though, as a rule, the clothes are not as austere as their southern counterparts, the higher social circles see a greater degree of conservatism. Even the most risque (noble or otherwise) would not run bare bottomed through the streets. A knee-length skirt is more likely to be worn with a short-sleeved shirt than a corset."


It is these Zalanthan taboos which cause these insults to be completely in line with documentation when referring to genitals as insults. The stuff about "free speech" is completely missing the mark. This is about being in line and being realistic when in the world we create together.

I am very grateful to anyone who read this the whole way through, thank you.

[oggotale]

Can I say dick, bitch, cunt, whore anymore?

Unironically - nope you shouldn't (although whore can be gender-neutral, so yes that's fine)

I use these words frequently IRL and couldn't give less of a f about it being gendered insults.

Buuut... Lore-wise, arm is some kind of a gender-neutral society, so gendered insults make absolutely no sense in game.
Saying "cunt" as an insult is almost as unrealistic as saying "god damn" or "what the hell".

Of course some amount of "that's not realistic" has to be tolerated though, because we all find it comfortable to entertain some of it in our play.

[Inks]

Did you read my post above? These insults are in context because they reference the genitals, a taboo subject in Zalanthas (which is also the reason they are swear words in real life). It has nothing to do with sexism why these are still relevant.

Except for bitch which makes no sense. Sorry about the length.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think I ever use bitch. I think I have before, but to be honest, calling someone a rabid gortok that happens to be female (but is crazy because they are protecting their litter), which is the only reason bitch would be a thing in Zalanthas, doesn't really strike me as totally out of place.

But I like to avoid that word entirely, because it does reference a female entity specifically.

Calling a woman a vulgar female part, or a male a vulgar male part, honestly seems perfectly fine to me, even in the setting. Calling the opposite sex the opposing slur does seem pretty stupid though, and I think I have been guilty of doing that in the past, because it never occurred to me what that implied.

I'm game to shave modern lingo from my IG vocab, but I'm liable to sling some setting appropriate slurs in instead. So I might bellow, "You stupid sandslit (dry pussy)" at a female, or "You moronic gith-rod (smelly, mutated dick)" at a male.

I honestly think that neither of these would trigger the sexism or setting-inappropriate flags. I'll be aiming them at the gender they belong to, on top of that.

But then again, I might abandon it all. I dunno.

[RavingTregils]

The word has no emotional meaning to me. It's not in the books I read, movies I watch, not in the daily slang of people I hang out with.
I wouldn't use it. It's like GD - when I hear/read that I just replace it with "uhm, uh" in my mind and soon realize that author/movie/show isn't worth my time. It's uncreative and boring.

That said, I have no desire to PK someone who is so wrapped up in their character that it would cause real pain.
I have no desire to type words that hurt you as a person.
Word bans make me second guess what I type and language changes fast, karens and incels. Could probably call someone Trump and trigger half the players.

I offer 2 suggestions:
1. Deal with it IC - imms - if someone was out emoting they are fucking their inix, wouldn't it be ok to have the inix kick them so hard they died? Really, they are so out of the norm that the pc doesn't belong in the world. Same with the sexist/racist name calling. Wouldn't all the tough females around laugh, get up, and proceed to kill the "idiot" pc? Just do it. They will learn.

2. Get rid of genders altogether. Have pairs go off and pick eggs from trees and spray it with their nuggies to procreate.

You can bleed your personal tragedies, phobias, biases into the game 2 ways: your writing AND your reading.

[Delirium]

a vulgar female part

a vulgar female part

jfc I'm done.

Some of you I believe are well intentioned and just genuinely don't get it but I give up.

I really just give up.

Have fun y'all.

[Armaddict]

As noted in previous threads on topics similar to this:

"No sexual discrimination in game" does not mean that the Zalanthan populace is woke as fuck.  It means that systemically, there is nothing that promotes an idea that men are better than women or that homosexuality is a character flaw.  The key word is systemic.

The idea that there will be no misogyny, or that there will be no people with varying levels of comfort with different things, or that everyone empathizes with the evils of slavery (not brought up here, but it's actually in the same category) is a mischaracterization of what discrimination actually is.  Characters have flaws, and some of them will likely have THOSE kind of character flaws.  The beauty of this is that it allows for these 'misuse' slipups in our transference between the vocabulary and usage in different worlds, and that we we don't have to learn a different language AND attach the same feeling to that different language that we have in ours.

So...that dude over there, might say some awfully sexist things.  But it's likely to draw irritation from people around them (which I see happen often enough), and it's never going to be a viewpoint that is mirrored by any group, government, or movement.  There will never be (or shouldn't be) any armageddon model that says men can progress further than women, or women further than men, or attain things that the opposite sex is just not allowed to do.  But that doesn't mean that Joe Schmoe over there can't decide he doesn't want a bunch of women sitting with him because their voices irritate him, or from Plain Jane deciding that all these dudes are just brainless horndogs and doesn't want them around.  The majority of people will think anything approaching sexism is a really really strange mindset.  But those approaches will never inflict any hinderance on people's characters, but that doesn't mean weird mindsets don't exist.

ETA:  I'd actually love for an actual discrimination group to rise as a group of fanatics, a bunch of incel men or some shit.  Not because it needs representation or anything of that nature, but just because I'd be eagerly awaiting my smugface as a Lady Templar arrived to drop fireballs on their heads and send them scattering to the winds.  Tek loves women, they drop his fireballs just as much as men do, and you can't argue with that.

[Dan]

a vulgar female part

a vulgar female part

jfc I'm done.

Some of you I believe are well intentioned and just genuinely don't get it but I give up.

I really just give up.

Have fun y'all.

I mean, 7DV also included vulgar male part in his response, which you decided not to quote and his words were obviously not intending to be offensive if you go by the definition of the word vulgar. "Making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude."  I thought that was what we were discussing, and I think most people seem to be coming from a place of good intentions.

I think there is a place for vulgarity.  Vulgarity does not automatically include sexual discrimination.

[Ender]

I think there is a place for vulgarity.  Vulgarity does not automatically include sexual discrimination.

Yes, but the two insults 7DV came up with are NOT equal when it comes to how those sort of insults have been used within our real life culture.  One is directed at a gender that has been systematically repressed and using their gendered body parts have been used to dehumanize and make less than for hundreds of years.  Using those insults that are DEEPLY STEEPED in hundreds of years of misogyny and just asking people not to take them as misogynistic is a monumental task that is simply unfair to ask.  Asking for equality in gendered insults is what is missing the point entirely. 

In our society calling someone a dick is punching up, calling someone a pussy is punching down due to the way our society has treated women and men differently and still treats them differently.  It all together sucks that it's not equal, but it's the way it is.

So in Arm I see lots of arguments about how gendered insults could have developed, BUT THEY DIDN'T is the simple answer.  Currently as is gendered insults are against the rules laid out by Nergal and not on theme for Armageddon.  That means that despite the fact that gendered insults COULD be a thing in Zalanthas, THEY SIMPLY AREN'T is the answer.

[Armaddict]

I find it incredibly ironic how the defense of the differences between being called a 'dick' and a 'cunt' outside of direct anatomical references can in itself come off as misogynist.

So in Arm I see lots of arguments about how gendered insults could have developed, BUT THEY DIDN'T is the simple answer.  Currently as is gendered insults are against the rules laid out by Nergal and not on theme for Armageddon.  That means that despite gendered insults COULD be a thing in Zalanthas, THEY SIMPLY AREN'T is the answer.

Kind of a giant leap for the sake of an argument.  Censorship baaaad.

[Ender]

I find it incredibly ironic how the defense of the differences between being called a 'dick' and a 'cunt' outside of direct anatomical references can in itself come off as misogynist.

So in Arm I see lots of arguments about how gendered insults could have developed, BUT THEY DIDN'T is the simple answer.  Currently as is gendered insults are against the rules laid out by Nergal and not on theme for Armageddon.  That means that despite gendered insults COULD be a thing in Zalanthas, THEY SIMPLY AREN'T is the answer.

Kind of a giant leap for the sake of an argument.  Censorship baaaad.

Wow, getting called a misogynist for trying to explain than sexism is a thing that existed and still is pervasive in our society and still causes disparity in how we communicate with each other.  That's new.  Did I unlock some kind of achievement?  "No the people trying to point out how the systemic oppression of women over countless generations causes gendered insults to carry the weight of that systemic sexism and misogyny are the real misogynists."

[nessalin]

Trimmed, unlocked, and moved back to General.

Will be locked and moved for further trimming if things cannot be kept both civil and on topic.

[triste]

In our society calling someone a dick is punching up, calling someone a pussy is punching down due to the way our society has treated women and men differently and still treats them differently.  It all together sucks that it's not equal, but it's the way it is.

Punching up/down discourse is terribly divisive, how about (1) No punching at all (2) Everyone roll with punches equally. Saying "that's the way it is" literally will change nothing. Refusing to have an egalitarian mindset will never win us egalitarianism, so check language like this punching up / punching down crud.

In the thread that got deleted before, Ender and I had a discussion where we agreed everything that was complained about by OP could have been handled by existing rules and complaint mechanisms. Ender agreed with this, but said this discussion served as a larger call out / message to the community. So what is our goal? Adding these genital words to https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular ? I sure hope not, I don't think that reflects well on game / search results. Is our goal here to debate if sexism is bad? I think we all agree, but remember any statements like "Group X is better than Group Y" is bigotry and sexism itself, don't do that or imply differential treatment is needed, that's counterproductive. I would like us all to be more egalitarian, but in general we all seem to agree sexism is bad.

Looks like perhaps our goals are accomplished here, what's still in question?

[Halcyon]

I am not any sort of protected class, but, I find insults interchangeable.  What matters to me is the level of vocal inflection or threat, and the how likely the speaker seems to an act of violence.

Would it be less jarring to agree on ten or so nonsense words in order of level of offense intended?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh, I've got my solution.

I won't use certain words, and will only insult people with their own gender, if I bother using gender at all. I'm pretty secure in feeling as though I don't engage in sexism in any way as a character.

The rest of this, I'll leave it to be. In the end, I do agree that I want Delirium and other people dealing with the same issues she's facing to have fun and play, and if I can get that out of them, I'm good. I probably won't be perfect in their eyes, but that's alright; I'll concede a little and they will too, and we'll get by.

[Pariah]

I would like to say that issues should be solved at the lowest level possible.

If I say something on one of my dudes that pisses you off personally as the player, and you drop an ooc about it, I'm more than not going to stop doing said thing.

Give people a chance to correct their behavior and stop wishing for staff to act as a security blanket.

We are all probably WELL over 18 who are commenting here so we don't need staff to decided everything for us.  They got better shit to do than referee personal feeling disputes.

It's the same as when you have a job and one of your coworkers pisses you off or bothers you in some way.  First step should be to tell them it bothers you.  If you run to a manager or boss every time you get offended you're going to be a perpetual state of offense.

I'm not dismissing that it might be a real feeling and bother you, but I am saying you need to own it and not expect the world to change without any effort on your part.

If that same scenario from earlier happens and you ooc me that I'm upsetting you or whatever and I snub you or dismiss it, then do a player complaint and let staff have a conversation with me.  That's when you need a third party, not before.

[creeper386]

If I say something on one of my dudes that pisses you off personally as the player, and you drop an ooc about it, I'm more than not going to stop doing said thing.

Based on responses I've seen on GDB and on Discord. I don't think this is a good idea.

But also based on response from staff I don't think the other way is a good idea either. So probably I'll just stop playing with people that in my opinion would rather be offensive then actually get creative

[hyzhenhok]

The trope that a vulgar cuss word is "uncreative" isn't very helpful in this discussion. It's something conservative parents tell their 9 year old to discourage him from cussing.  There is literally no word you can create on your own that packs the punch of actual English swear words, because the impact depends on what the listener understands it to mean. Like any other, they're used because they express and are understood to have a particular meaning. You can't "creative" your way into making someone else feel what you actually meant by an insult you just made up on the spot.

I mean, look at the "Zalanthan cusswords" proposed in the other thread. They're mostly just variations of shit and fuck. If you want to translate a swear word into English, you use an English swear word!

Now, it can absolutely be true that these words make some of our players uncomfortable and are misused by people who are violating the no-sexism rule to the point that banning might be a reasonable choice. That might be true without having to cast aspersions that someone running a character with a potty mouth is necessarily prejudiced, ignorant, or uncreative.

I think after these discussions I'm leaning more towards the harsher ban side of things than I was originally, but please stop the bad linguistics takes about cuss words. They make me sad.

[Medivh]

There is literally no word you can create on your own that packs the punch of actual English swear words, because the impact depends on what the listener understands it to mean. Like any other, they're used because they express and are understood to have a particular meaning. You can't "creative" your way into making someone else feel what you actually meant by an insult you just made up on the spot.

I mean, look at the "Zalanthan cusswords" proposed in the other thread. They're mostly just variations of shit and fuck. If you want to translate a swear word into English, you use an English swear word!

I do think that slurs like stump or sharp hit all of that; they are creative, insulting, and perfectly Zalanthan. These also aren't made up on the spot; they are many years old.

This is just one of those hard to do things that needs time to happen. Someone has to push fitting, catchy slurs onto people IG. Tuluki from that cussword thread is pretty good, but a lot of the other ones are too long.

I'll start throwing the N'Wah, S'Wit, and Fetcher out if you do. 

[creeper386]

To me though, there is more then just words. As someone who regularly pissed people off without ever trying to, tone plays a huge role in it, so does body langauge. Using these combined with probably anything you say, you can probably get your point across. Sure it isn't as easy as just using an English curse word.

But for the most part, I don't see a lot of god damns or jesus christ despite those being pretty common at least in America. We already take measures to use Zalanthan themed stuff. Disparaging words based on gender is not Zalanthan.

I've been told in a request that staff look into other players word usages that I was bringing RL baggage into the game(Which by the way staff. Pretty rude way to word things) I think if you are using any word as an insult because of it's real life shock and awe value, the user of the words are just as much bringing real life baggage into the game.

[oggotale]

Did you read my post above? These insults are in context because they reference the genitals, a taboo subject in Zalanthas (which is also the reason they are swear words in real life). It has nothing to do with sexism why these are still relevant.

Except for bitch which makes no sense. Sorry about the length.

I skimmed it but I'm not convinced.

wrt to the reason I'm not convinced - I do believe the IRL usage of the word is based on some amount of gendered expectations/stereotypes that would NOT exist in Zalanthas and I find your theory of the same exact thing emerging from this alternative non-gendered route to be a stretch (maybe it's more applicable to the modern usage of the word cunt, less so dick and definitely not bitch, as you already mentioned)

I mean, consider that "nudist" barely has the same derogatory connotation (relatively speaking) even though people do disapprove of nudity deeply.

Here's another steaming hot take: We're used to it now, but the word "fucked" in much of it's usage is ALSO non-sensical in the Zalanthan gender-neutral context.

[oggotale]

As noted in previous threads on topics similar to this:

"No sexual discrimination in game" does not mean that the Zalanthan populace is woke as fuck.  It means that systemically, there is nothing that promotes an idea that men are better than women or that homosexuality is a character flaw.  The key word is systemic.

The idea that there will be no misogyny, or that there will be no people with varying levels of comfort with different things, or that everyone empathizes with the evils of slavery (not brought up here, but it's actually in the same category) is a mischaracterization of what discrimination actually is.  Characters have flaws, and some of them will likely have THOSE kind of character flaws.  The beauty of this is that it allows for these 'misuse' slipups in our transference between the vocabulary and usage in different worlds, and that we we don't have to learn a different language AND attach the same feeling to that different language that we have in ours.

So...that dude over there, might say some awfully sexist things.  But it's likely to draw irritation from people around them (which I see happen often enough), and it's never going to be a viewpoint that is mirrored by any group, government, or movement.  There will never be (or shouldn't be) any armageddon model that says men can progress further than women, or women further than men, or attain things that the opposite sex is just not allowed to do.  But that doesn't mean that Joe Schmoe over there can't decide he doesn't want a bunch of women sitting with him because their voices irritate him, or from Plain Jane deciding that all these dudes are just brainless horndogs and doesn't want them around.  The majority of people will think anything approaching sexism is a really really strange mindset.  But those approaches will never inflict any hinderance on people's characters, but that doesn't mean weird mindsets don't exist.

ETA:  I'd actually love for an actual discrimination group to rise as a group of fanatics, a bunch of incel men or some shit.  Not because it needs representation or anything of that nature, but just because I'd be eagerly awaiting my smugface as a Lady Templar arrived to drop fireballs on their heads and send them scattering to the winds.  Tek loves women, they drop his fireballs just as much as men do, and you can't argue with that.

Nah this aint it.

Insults are built by social games with wide participation. Not by individual's deviating from the norm in the society.
Let us accept that the following sentiment may realistically exist for some individual people in Zalanthas "i hate woman in particular, more than men, I believe (for whatever reason) that women morally ought to do X and men Y" - even if such is the case, it justifies RPING misogyny which would be this individual's actions/thoughts, it does NOT justify the presence of socially recognized/known gendered insults that everyone understands (e.g. bitch in a deregotary term - realistically this is akin to your character saying "You female dog!" it would  be nonsenstical for him since, even though HE is misogynistic, society is gender neutral, hence bitch never took on those meanings in Zalanthas - or shouldn't have"

Now your point was that "but this sentiment exists and we're just using a real-life term that reflects the same sentiment, if we can't use this term, we can't express that sentiment" AND THAT'S RIGHT THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE.
For e.g. in a society with NO RACISM, you would NOT have a concept of any "racist slang", any bigotry would have to be communicated using known words without insults (since those insults would not exist)

Based on the post what you seem to WANT is - person uses IRL misogynistic insults to express misogyny - society disapproves

But step 1 itself should not be possible since the person has no reason to attach those misogynistic sentiments to that word without the wider social game.
And if he comes up with his own "similar" insults, everyone else should be confused first and disapproving second (assuming they gaf)