Too Many Gickers? Let's Fix That! (WITHOUT REDUCING THE FUN OF MAGICK)

[th3kaiser]

Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be  p o w a h f u l  and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.

To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.

Heh, this is going full circle, as the original intent of the subclasses was to give some of the mages some fleshed out skills.

I personally think it was also intended to make mages a bit weaker by breaking up their spell synergies, it simply wasn't ever stated outright by staff. But let's be honest, a ton of us didn't like it when they broke them up and still don't love it. It's not the main reason I've backed off playing, but saying it isn't a decent portion of the reason would be a lie. I want my mage to be a mage, not a ranger with x-men abilities.

[Dan]

Chiming in to say +1 to making spice actually useful, be it through the means valeria recommends or otherwise. It came up in a discussion about a year ago: more ranges in spice quality is another good idea worth reviving/mentioning. The spice trade currently pays crap, it would be fun to be able to sneak some high quality knots into Allanak and cook up a ton of crappy adulterated spice to sell in the 'rinth. People make billions off the drug trade today IRL but in Zalanthas you're lucky if you make as much coin smuggling spice as you can working in the salt flats.

+1 to making spice actually worth being a Dust Runner for

Make the effects of war spice last a few in game days and increase and extend the repercussions for withdrawal and addiction.  If I only need one or two pinches per play session instead of every ten minutes it would be much more useful.

[mansa]

Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be  p o w a h f u l  and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.

To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.

Heh, this is going full circle, as the original intent of the subclasses was to give some of the mages some fleshed out skills.

I personally think it was also intended to make mages a bit weaker by breaking up their spell synergies, it simply wasn't ever stated outright by staff. But let's be honest, a ton of us didn't like it when they broke them up and still don't love it. It's not the main reason I've backed off playing, but saying it isn't a decent portion of the reason would be a lie. I want my mage to be a mage, not a ranger with x-men abilities.

No, no.
When subclasses launched in 2000, the intent was to give full mage classes some fleshed out skills.

[X-D]

When subclasses were first added, Staff even said at the time, it was to give all the classes a bit of flavor, not to make it so mages had some other skills, But to give flavor to the main classes, mage or mundane. Hell the first subclasses were all focused to compliment mundane classes...Staff even called them more of a "hobby" That is why they all maxed pretty low, they were not intended to be any type of fleshed out class. They did very little to compliment or even help mage classes much. One could argue that the extended subs had a bit more mage in mind. Though not much. And now Subs are something you HAVE to have...to fill out many of the mundane classes, which I find rather sad.

The Aspect system was to make mages weaker, And people could argue otherwise, and make claim that was not intent, But is so successful as to make that claim rather hard to believe.

Low quality full subs for full mages...Meh, I could get behind that.

[th3kaiser]

Nevermind

Edit: Mansa, I just realized we're talking about different things. I was talking specifically about mage subclasses, not subclasses from the year 2000. So I'm dumb!

[Delirium]

Low quality full subs for full mages...Meh, I could get behind that.

Basically, re-work the full sorcerer and psionicist subclasses to be more robust, open them to full elementalist classes, and add more of them to replace the current "aspect" subclasses-- these new subguilds would also be open to psionicists. Remove aspects, keep Touched as a subguild, and return full elementalists to the game (and take the opportunity to tweak the synergy of the spell lists, if needed. For the most part they already synergized well. That was the best part, coming up with creative ways to combine and apply them).

Give the new subs similar skills and branch paths as normal guild/sub combinations so they're difficult to impossible to sniff, but cap the skills lower. I'm envisioning a mix of combat-heavy, mixed utility, or pure utility subguilds, just like the current full guilds, but with a much wider variety of skills offered than the current E/SGs, since E/SGs are meant to compliment a main class.

[betweenford]

Personally, I would like to see all options available to play. Full guild, touched, and aspected, as well as more fleshed out subclasses to make wilderness-based elementalists less........ Jank.

I wanna see everything from that full-on "I'm a mage before anything else" to the blend of unpredictable buffed out raider/vivcorruption, to the near-mundane stuff touched gets.

[Delirium]

The hope is to lower the amount of magickers in the game, especially the very tired "omg everyone I know turned out to be a magicker" trope, and bringing back full elementalists without removing the aspects would NOT accomplish that.

[Narf]

Make Mundanes better at Mundane skills. Previously elementalists couldn't use most mundane skills at all, now they can. But there's no rule they have to be as good as a mundane at what the mundane does (I mean there is, but there doesn't have to be).

You could do this in a couple of ways:

1) Lower the caps on mundane skills when you pick an elementalist subguild. You could drop by just enough to still let them branch their skills, but prevent them from getting higher than that.

2) Improve a mundane's ability to learn mundane skills (effectively increasing their wisdom for skill purposes only).

3) Add special skills to the mundane subguilds that only exist on those subguilds.

4) Give mundanes a passive bonus to all mundane skills. They're just 5% better at everything (pulling that number out of my posterior) because they have to rely on their mundane abilities entirely.

5) Give elementalists a passive penalty to all mundane skills. They're just 5% worse at everything because they have to divert their attention to their magic as they develop. (This is like the above solution, but doesn't power creep).

[Inks]

Magickers should not be stronger. The topic is how to have less of them, without further nerfs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the answer is:
1. Tuluk
2. Mundane Buffs

Actually, somebody suggested spice being made to last longer. What if Spice is something that only works for mundane people, and it lasted longer?

[Patuk]

Actually, somebody suggested spice being made to last longer. What if Spice is something that only works for mundane people, and it lasted longer?

Then it still isn't really an equivalent to the stuff whirans do I can't talk about, but now mundanes have better stats occasionally, I guess.

[Inks]

Extend anti-magick field to span and morins, in a radius. Also stop sorcerers from casting in it. Make preserver far less mana efficient, to encourage more defilers.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, somebody suggested spice being made to last longer. What if Spice is something that only works for mundane people, and it lasted longer?

Then it still isn't really an equivalent to the stuff whirans do I can't talk about, but now mundanes have better stats occasionally, I guess.

Well, I didn't mean it would match them, of course, doing that ... it was one of those "mundane only" perks ...

[ShaiHulud]

I would think, magickers are more common now than in various times in Arm's history. It has happened many times. And it is dependent on current roles to experience. I think if you look at it from an ic perspective, it can be fun and interesting. Maybe younger and newer players are exploring roles and setting. Maybe some are working with the guild/subguild combinations to tell the character story they want.
It gravitates to some more than others. It did me more in past.
As for witch hunters, old ranger guild/subguilded Nilazi with the aspect of Nil.

[Dar]

I am still of opinion that mages are 10x more dangerous now Po plot they were when they were full mages.  Not every aspect, but many many many.

[roughneck]

I am still of opinion that mages are 10x more dangerous now Po plot they were when they were full mages.  Not every aspect, but many many many.

Agreed.

Plus, some aspects' abilities make it much easier to harvest poisons solo that some of the mob/combat changes over the last few years have made it so much more difficult for a solo mundane to do.

[roughneck]

Another solution without nerfing current mage aspects:

2 karma mundane extended subguilds that give you master.

If I could play Raider or Enforcer with master stealth/scan, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out on what a Raider/Aspect can do.

Likewise, if I spend 2 karma to have a Stalker/Combat Specialist that had increased O/D caps, or master parry/shield use. Of fuck, master archery.

Maybe someone suggested it already, but ya. some master skill subclasses for two karma would be the tits.

The new Classes/Subclasses are cool for magickers, but they don't hold a candle to playing the old Ranger class.

[th3kaiser]

I am still of opinion that mages are 10x more dangerous now Po plot they were when they were full mages.  Not every aspect, but many many many.

Agreed.

Plus, some aspects' abilities make it much easier to harvest poisons solo that some of the mob/combat changes over the last few years have made it so much more difficult for a solo mundane to do.

Yeah, but all of the increased scary stuff (I only think like three of them are genuinely scarier than full guilds and I think the character creation numbers would prove that out if staff published them) is entirely because they're mundane main guilds first. They're scarier because they're less magey and more mundane. Full guild mages didn't even get skinning for fuck's sake and couldn't use those insta-kill poisons. Poisons USED to be a big balancing point against mages.

[Brokkr]

Another solution without nerfing current mage aspects:

2 karma mundane extended subguilds that give you master.

If I could play Raider or Enforcer with master stealth/scan, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out on what a Raider/Aspect can do.

Likewise, if I spend 2 karma to have a Stalker/Combat Specialist that had increased O/D caps, or master parry/shield use. Of fuck, master archery.

Maybe someone suggested it already, but ya. some master skill subclasses for two karma would be the tits.

The new Classes/Subclasses are cool for magickers, but they don't hold a candle to playing the old Ranger class.

When we were originally looking at the class changes and thinking about how to make the game somewhat easier from a just in the game now need to skill grind perspective, we were thinking about 2 sets of classes.  One set that looks like the current ones but starting skills more on the order of the old guilds.  And one set of karma classes with higher starting skills than the current ones.  Which couldn't be picked in conjunction with a mage subclass.  Ultimately we decided we didn't want to just make it easier for folks with karma, but for everyone.

[roughneck]

Another solution without nerfing current mage aspects:

2 karma mundane extended subguilds that give you master.

If I could play Raider or Enforcer with master stealth/scan, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out on what a Raider/Aspect can do.

Likewise, if I spend 2 karma to have a Stalker/Combat Specialist that had increased O/D caps, or master parry/shield use. Of fuck, master archery.

Maybe someone suggested it already, but ya. some master skill subclasses for two karma would be the tits.

The new Classes/Subclasses are cool for magickers, but they don't hold a candle to playing the old Ranger class.

When we were originally looking at the class changes and thinking about how to make the game somewhat easier from a just in the game now need to skill grind perspective, we were thinking about 2 sets of classes.  One set that looks like the current ones but starting skills more on the order of the old guilds.  And one set of karma classes with higher starting skills than the current ones.  Which couldn't be picked in conjunction with a mage subclass.  Ultimately we decided we didn't want to just make it easier for folks with karma, but for everyone.

And I think it's great! The starting skills are much more playable out of the gate. Very positive change.

But I was talking skill caps, not starting skills. If the extended subclasses could get useful skills capped to Master level, they would be way more tasty. By useful I mean stealth, offensive, defensive, etc. What's the difference from a balance/abuse perspective of giving someone master backstab in a subclass, or the ability to shoot fireballs? Or Master Parry, Master Stealth, etc. The utility difference between Advanced and Master is pretty significant.

Relating back to the thread. I think folks pick mage subclasses because if you have the karma, you feel like you might as well use it, and players may feel like they'll have a more badass PC with what's offered there vs mundane subclasses that cap at advanced levels and lack a wow factor.

[X-D]

Spending karma for some higher max rather then higher starting...I might never play another mage...Heh.


As to any of the aspects being more powerful/scarier then full mages.....Um....No. None of them. Only one is maybe equal with the right main. Other then that, Nah, not even in the same kingdom, let alone species.

Keep in mind, at no time on here am I considering sorcs, who are, arguably more scary now.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, here's a good point. Right now, you can use your karma for race/class combos that reach your karma max. I forget what the breakdown is. But your race has a cost, 0-2, I think. Class has no cost, and subclasses have a 0-2 karma cost. You can spec app for a combo reaching above your karma level by a point, for a max of 4 for anyone.

But if a third comb of class/sub-classes were worked into that mathematic equation, then I feel like that would be pretty cool. Maybe new higher capped/starting main classes costing 1-2 karma.

[Brokkr]

Like I said, we went another direction because there is already stuff behind a karma gate.

If we are spit-balling to solve the original stated problem though....

You play a mundane.  Stuff.

You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X higher based on Stuff.  Lets say 5.
More Stuff.

You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X+Y higher based on Stuff and More Stuff.  Lets say 11.
Your starting skills in other areas start Y higher.  That'd be 6.
Lots More Stuff, with this long lived character.

You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus and in other areas have reached the cap due to all the damn Stuff and start there.  Lets say +20 in everything.
You die before any Stuff.

You start another mundane.
Your starting skills are still +20 everything.

You start a magicker.
No increased start skills.

You start a mundane.
Starting a magicker caused the whole chain to reset to zero.  No increased start skills.

[Veselka]

Sign me up.

I will be Highlander.