Too Many Gickers? Let's Fix That! (WITHOUT REDUCING THE FUN OF MAGICK)

[Patuk]

If it makes you feel better, I share the same timezone you do, and playtimes during early afternoons and such are a lot more padded now.

With or without travel? I can never play outdoorsy characters due to having zero direction sense ...

Either!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nah, the few times I tried, I found wild mages incredibly easy to keep alive. Boringly so. Except the one where the spell changed underneath me.

Anyway, is Nilaz the natural hunter of other elemental mages?
What if tattooed Nilaz were ok in the north and used against those filthy other kinds in the south?
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages"  suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.

Wouldn't solve the too many gicker problem but would partially solve the forced loathing problem.

I kinda dig the idea of anti-magick magickers getting the nod outta the heath - barbari -- northie --- fuck. Sun King's pals. I've also thought that if psions ever got a class breakdown like mages did, it might be cool to allow some limited, sanctioned psion play up there.

[Strongheart]

Nah, the few times I tried, I found wild mages incredibly easy to keep alive. Boringly so. Except the one where the spell changed underneath me.

Anyway, is Nilaz the natural hunter of other elemental mages?
What if tattooed Nilaz were ok in the north and used against those filthy other kinds in the south?
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages"  suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.

Wouldn't solve the too many gicker problem but would partially solve the forced loathing problem.

I kinda dig the idea of anti-magick magickers getting the nod outta the heath - barbari -- northie --- fuck. Sun King's pals. I've also thought that if psions ever got a class breakdown like mages did, it might be cool to allow some limited, sanctioned psion play up there.

Loving these suggestions! I'm so glad Tuluk was announced because I do feel it solves this issue quite a bit.

[Halcyon]

To borrow a dnd term... Human psion (psychometabolic) / nilazi (anathema) as a playable northern pc.  Yep.  +1 vote.  Sign me up.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages"  suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.

I glossed over this, but this precisely is what I'd like to see. And not even "they're ok", but just not ... sooo much hate for your own mages in order to be following docs. Right now, despite docs saying that people take Vivs with them on trips to provide water and stuff, if you actually do it or use them, everybody will act like you are breaking docs by doing it, because the other docs say that all mundanes need to hate and mistrust all mages.

[LindseyBalboa]

What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages"  suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.

I glossed over this, but this precisely is what I'd like to see. And not even "they're ok", but just not ... sooo much hate for your own mages in order to be following docs. Right now, despite docs saying that people take Vivs with them on trips to provide water and stuff, if you actually do it or use them, everybody will act like you are breaking docs by doing it, because the other docs say that all mundanes need to hate and mistrust all mages.

I'm fully in support of people tolerating mages while hating and distrusting them. Hiring them and trying to jump them in an alley later for money back. Paying for water on a trip, until misfortune falls on the caravan and the magicker is blamed. And oof the irony in a nilazi being the exact solution to some mage terrorizing a village...

[Inks]

What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages"  suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.

I glossed over this, but this precisely is what I'd like to see. And not even "they're ok", but just not ... sooo much hate for your own mages in order to be following docs. Right now, despite docs saying that people take Vivs with them on trips to provide water and stuff, if you actually do it or use them, everybody will act like you are breaking docs by doing it, because the other docs say that all mundanes need to hate and mistrust all mages.

Gemmed are literally the enemy to northerners. Most northern tribes have their own population of witches who are ignored if they keep that shizz on the dl and keep them out of Tuluk. Has always been like that. Everyone knows SR have Krathi, they are famous for it but they always would trade in Tuluk. Gemmed? = Always an enemy.

Tuluk opening fixes everything in my eyes. No more huggle puddles.

[Pariah]

Since this thread has sorta turned into everything magickal.  I will say that I too find it sorta jarring that some of the documentation talks about folks using healing/water making abilities of vivs when they need to.

But everyone is supposed to hate/fear/kill them at every opportunity.

I'm not trying to buck the system at all, but I think that in a desert world, where water is a premium and people get hurt all the god damn time, vivs would be revered and not shunned.

Shit if they really existed I'd be trying to have one as my best friend in literal REAL EARTH lol.

[triste]

Quick caveat on the topic of bucking stereotypes that there are all sorts of Vivaduans and Corruption Vivaduans are definitely ones to fear.

Caveat aside, I still don't agree with the general point.

Even if abilities are ostensibly "good," it is easy to come up with superstitious explanations for why they are "bad." We even have real life analogies; some Christian sects are averse to blood transfusions (AKA modern medicine) and their followers nearly die in surgeries because they won't have blood transfusions (example in point, Jehovah's Witnesses, Prince was one and almost died in surgery, etc). Likewise a superstitious Zalanthan might have a notion that Vivaduan healing would make them impure, cause their offspring to be mutants, etc, and therefore refuse Vivaduan healing.

I know a lot of us are smart open minded people and the idea of "superstition > logic" is jarring, but remember there isn't widespread education and literacy in Zalanthas, so "superstition > logic" is entirely appropriate here.

* no offense to Jehovah's Witnesses in this post but it actually felt like a less offensive example than the one I was going to go with (anti-vaxxers)

[Pariah]

Oh yeah I get it, why it would be scary.

Hell it's been so long since I played one I honestly forgot what they can do for the most part.

I just think that's why some folks would have a rough time if for example, Indy hunter gatherer finds out that his dude is a water witch when he gets nearly killed by a carru and homeboy heals him.

By documentation if you hold to it like the gospel, I think he should report his dude and/or kill him for being a dirty abomination but that is a rough pill to swallow and takes all the grey out of the situation and is very black and white about it.

But then it's a tight rope of being a real thinking person with feelings and living a bit in the grey and being called out for ignoring the docs right?

I honestly think that's the hard part of a mage.   Not that I can do world bending magic, but the social problems and trying to make it more intuitive than discovered mage = dead mage.

I have played with folks back in the day when the new subs came out and discovered a month after being hunting partners that my dude here is secret witch and while I've never been scolded for not insta killing/reporting him/her I always felt like I was walking on egg shells and that made me understand why some folks might be quick to kill/report because that balance is draining.

[triste]

Your observations here are accurate and if anything people being quick to rat out mages shows people are following the docs well, and mages should be wary of being buddy-buddy with folk. It's not a roleplay dead end, I have seen interesting relationships develop around either helping a gicker hide their abilities or ratting them out and becoming enemies / frenemies.

I get the angst about everyone and their mom being a gicker around Allanak, sometimes it is indeed eyeroll inducing. But in the North... well they will have hide their abilities, or be killed! There's your gicker free zone folks.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have no issue with playing a person afraid of magick. wary of magickers, reporting his homie for it, etc.

I have a problem with it potentially being an OOCl issue if I don't mindlessly fear gemmed magickers (not magick), in Allanak. Only in Nak, only with gemmed. I want to be able to play either the scared person or the accepting person, and not risk being OOC in doing either.

People can be as dumb as they wanna be, but Ages after Ages of living beside these mages really should have washed the stigma of working with them away by now. Not fucking them. Not sharing sweet nothings. But working with them, having a drink with them, etc. Especially if they appear to be your race.

That's all I'm saying. We do some dumb shit for the Highlord. Surely, the Highlord let the mages be here, so this is just some more dumb shit to deal with.

Neither the person who says, "Right on", nor the person who never talks to Roger again, should be out of character and not playing to the docs, when Roger says he had Bob the gemmed stone mage cast Rock of Gibraltar on him. That is what I want to see, and only in Allanak.

[Strongheart]

I have no issue with playing a person afraid of magick. wary of magickers, reporting his homie for it, etc.

I have a problem with it potentially being an OOCl issue if I don't mindlessly fear gemmed magickers (not magick), in Allanak. Only in Nak, only with gemmed. I want to be able to play either the scared person or the accepting person, and not risk being OOC in doing either.

People can be as dumb as they wanna be, but Ages after Ages of living beside these mages really should have washed the stigma of working with them away by now. Not fucking them. Not sharing sweet nothings. But working with them, having a drink with them, etc. Especially if they appear to be your race.

That's all I'm saying. We do some dumb shit for the Highlord. Surely, the Highlord let the mages be here, so this is just some more dumb shit to deal with.

Neither the person who says, "Right on", nor the person who never talks to Roger again, should be out of character and not playing to the docs, when Roger says he had Bob the gemmed stone mage cast Rock of Gibraltar on him. That is what I want to see, and only in Allanak.

I agree with this! The only issue I've had is the Aspects reducing the effectiveness of the mundanes. That is all I've adamantly argued, and now that there are all these classes along with subclasses, mundanes can compete more mechanically wise. Hence why I feel that there should only be Full Elementalists (spruced up) and Touched. There usually hasn't been a problem RP wise aside from OH? THAT GUY'S A MAGE, DANG THERE GOES ANOTHER POTENTIAL FRIEND. It shouldn't be the norm which it seems like ditching the Aspects would fix BUT ONLY BECAUSE the new class system exists.

I keep being told that Full Elementalists were aplenty in the past then well guess what, you just fixed the issue by necessitating the need for more mundanes (don't forget that merchants used to be able to craft everything basically but they no longer exist along with the fact that rangers don't either so no matter what you choose you'll be missing a bit of something and as it exists right now MAGES cover for those missing bits in your main class by just adding to your already existing mundane power) since the mages WHO AREN'T Touched can't be your group's all powerful mage AND fight like a full on warrior simultaneously. You're gonna need your mundane buddy for that craft, Magey-Wagey UNLESS you choose to have a crafting sub on a mage which sounds like even harder mode but power to the player.

This change would fix another grand issue with the amounts of players there are such as Gemmed being fewer but still necessary since you'd start seeing each elementalist finding a place and use for Allanaki clans/Templars etc. A Full Elementalist would need to rely on their mundane buddies (or other mages even) to get a job done while at the same time being able to accomplish all that their magick is intended for should a Templar or other party require it.

Mage players would be happy, mundanes would be happy, and I'd be very happy cuz I love Touched so much!!

[Strongheart]

I should add that it'd probably be okay to keep Nilazi as it is (sorry folks) because it does exist as an antithesis to magickers. And being able to hide it more easily (through it being a sub) makes complete sense but maybe it could use some buffing considering it gets more flak ICly than even mindworms and sorcs.

[Pariah]

I think the original argument for not having full mages was to be a person first and not just a mage.

Full mages were super easy to spot and class sniff due to them sucking at literally everything but magery.

Plus they would tend to be secluded all day long in temples span casting to branch spells to super splat spell or that one pvp spell they all have before they would actually start playing as a real person.

So the idea of the mundane skills and aspect is that they could pass for a normal person and not just sit casting Mon create fruitloops for seven days to branch create beer.

I played quite a few full mages back in the day and playing a non gemmed was almost impossible due to your frailness and playing a gemmed was a lot of spam casting to branch and little else.

So that is why I think you got a lot of people joining the Byn or being Amos the hunter for a while to get a good base of being able to survive the random monster before they become the fireball throwing witch and the trope of my buddy is a secret witch comes up so often.

[Strongheart]

I think the original argument for not having full mages was to be a person first and not just a mage.

Full mages were super easy to spot and class sniff due to them sucking at literally everything but magery.

Plus they would tend to be secluded all day long in temples span casting to branch spells to super splat spell or that one pvp spell they all have before they would actually start playing as a real person.

So the idea of the mundane skills and aspect is that they could pass for a normal person and not just sit casting Mon create fruitloops for seven days to branch create beer.

I played quite a few full mages back in the day and playing a non gemmed was almost impossible due to your frailness and playing a gemmed was a lot of spam casting to branch and little else.

So that is why I think you got a lot of people joining the Byn or being Amos the hunter for a while to get a good base of being able to survive the random monster before they become the fireball throwing witch and the trope of my buddy is a secret witch comes up so often.

Right! I'm not arguing that isn't the case. But I think it's pretty clear that there has been plenty of time to test whether or not the Aspects were a success and since we're on the topic of change (the re-introduction of Tuluk) then the mages can have their place without be legitimately everywhere (unless you want the Aspect-feel of picking a Touched or Nilazi and still being able to be a hidden elementalist).

[Strongheart]

And on top of that! They don't have to feel bad for being a mage because they'll realize that they have their place in the world. If they want to go hard mode and not spam cast in a temple somewhere then they have that option while still being effective. Guild-sniffing is going to happen regardless of what you do, I've had PCs sniff mine out intentionally or no because if you have any experience with each class, you're going to know what that person is or at the very least narrow it done. It's an inevitably if you spend time around that character and have chats with them.

[Strongheart]

The reason I bring up the "feeling bad for playing a mage" is because of the balance mechanically as it exists. Back when they were full mages, you wouldn't have to worry about them pulling out the stops (and if they do then well they're obviously a knowledge PvPer, you were doomed to begin with) aside from a few mundane tricks. They couldn't be both a master sneak and mount rider with wilderness quit like a Ranger or an advanced weapon wielding Warrior or a thiefy/connivy Burglar/Pickpocket (though I was always of the opinion those two classes should have been merged). Anyhow! My point is that when you break it down: Full Elementalists bring about less of a balance issue than the Aspects. Balance is important because whether you like it or not, people will play that itch that'll scratch them over willingly choosing a mundane that will perform more poorly than an Aspected character. It's just the truth, and mage players shouldn't be punished more than they are ICly for being a mage, I feel that it is enough as is. Instead they should have the risk of being less effective than mundanes in mundanity while being uncontested in their magick.

[valeria]

The too many mages complaint/issue comes up every now and then, usually when there's some magick hijinks grinding people's gears.  I agree that right now we're probably seeing more magickers because it's easier to have a meaningful manifestation story, instead of just rolling into the game as a gemmed because trying to pass yourself off as not a hidden witch won't work.

That said, I would love, love, love for mundanes to be given coded ways to accomplish the less magical things that spells can accomplish.  Tie someone up, blindfold them, shove a cloth in their mouth, break down doors, build a barrier in the desert with enough effort and time, etc.  Have wanted this for years.  Will continue to want.

I'd also love for spice buffs to not work on manifested mages except for that one spice.  Mages get ways to buff themselves.  Leave spice buffs for mundanes.  Maybe it makes mages not able to magic or something idk.

Of course, I'm biased since I more or less suck at playing mages.  That spell grind, ugh.

As far as full mages go, I still think it would be nice to have as an option.

[Strongheart]

That said, I would love, love, love for mundanes to be given coded ways to accomplish the less magical things that spells can accomplish.  Tie someone up, blindfold them, shove a cloth in their mouth, break down doors, build a barrier in the desert with enough effort and time, etc.  Have wanted this for years.  Will continue to want.

I'd also love for spice buffs to not work on manifested mages except for that one spice.  Mages get ways to buff themselves.  Leave spice buffs for mundanes.  Maybe it makes mages not able to magic or something idk.

I won't deny that having those mechanics would be welcome! But as they exist currently, both mundanes and mages would have access to these tools. As well they should hence why the simpler solution would be to have Full Elementalists and Touched only because Aspects give too much power for the already sufficient-enough mundane. They'll be more powerful mundanes because the mundane subclasses cannot compete with magick nor should they really, magick should be special and have its place. That's why mages should be fully attuned to their magick, not missing spells here and there for no reason like the Aspects do. Touched make sense because the connection to their element is different.

That spice idea is cool though, I'll admit. And maybe when mundanes use that one spice they just receive no benefits as I'm pretty sure they already don't? I dunno!

[triste]

Chiming in to say +1 to making spice actually useful, be it through the means valeria recommends or otherwise. It came up in a discussion about a year ago: more ranges in spice quality is another good idea worth reviving/mentioning. The spice trade currently pays crap, it would be fun to be able to sneak some high quality knots into Allanak and cook up a ton of crappy adulterated spice to sell in the 'rinth. People make billions off the drug trade today IRL but in Zalanthas you're lucky if you make as much coin smuggling spice as you can working in the salt flats.

[Strongheart]

Chiming in to say +1 to making spice actually useful, be it through the means valeria recommends or otherwise. It came up in a discussion about a year ago: more ranges in spice quality is another good idea worth reviving/mentioning. The spice trade currently pays crap, it would be fun to be able to sneak some high quality knots into Allanak and cook up a ton of crappy adulterated spice to sell in the 'rinth. People make billions off the drug trade today IRL but in Zalanthas you're lucky if you make as much coin smuggling spice as you can working in the salt flats.

+1 to making spice actually worth being a Dust Runner for

[th3kaiser]

I think the original argument for not having full mages was to be a person first and not just a mage.

Full mages were super easy to spot and class sniff due to them sucking at literally everything but magery.

Plus they would tend to be secluded all day long in temples span casting to branch spells to super splat spell or that one pvp spell they all have before they would actually start playing as a real person.

In my opinion, I don't think the subguilds did one bit of good in decreasing the mage grind. They very much still hide away getting powerful, they just have a much longer grind to deal with now since you have those slow moving combat skills to work on.

Y'all convince staff to bring back Full mages and I might just have time to play again. As let's be honest, full mages are quicker to get to a useful level than a mundane and my only issue with this game currently is the time it takes to become a useful PC as I do not have time for the mundane grind. (I'm not a social player please don't tell me I can be impactful with no skills, I'm super aware some of you love that stuff. I'm a solo indie player who plays in the wilderness, it's just what I enjoy)

[Delirium]

Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be  p o w a h f u l  and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.

To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.

[mansa]

Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be  p o w a h f u l  and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.

To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.

Heh, this is going full circle, as the original intent of the subclasses was to give some of the mages some fleshed out skills.