Too Many Gickers? Let's Fix That! (WITHOUT REDUCING THE FUN OF MAGICK)

[Tranquil]

I formally take back all my whinging about the 'oversaturation' of mages now.

Though I do still think more karma uses for mundanes would be good.

[Veselka]

To be clear, Tuluk Reopening will surely help with spreading the population around, and thereby reduce the amount of 'Active Mages' at a given time.

In addition, Tuluk is known for its 'witch hunting qualities'.

I agree, mundane benefits to karma would be welcome and awesome, but probably a different thread idea.

[mansa]

To be clear, Tuluk Reopening will surely help with spreading the population around, and thereby reduce the amount of 'Active Mages' at a given time.

I disagree 100%.

The only thing that is changing is the play area that the storyline allows for non-mages to play in.

The number of mages will still be the same.
The play areas that allow for mages to enjoy in will still attract the mages.

The players who dislike seeing mages are removing themselves from the area of play that allow for mages.

I will not be surprised that there will be MORE mages in RED STORM, ALLANAK/'RINTH, and in the DESERT WASTES.

[Patuk]

Yeaaah, there have been times where Tuluki PCs just got picked off by magickers and had no recourse. I really hope not to see that sorts of thing again.

[Veselka]

To be clear, Tuluk Reopening will surely help with spreading the population around, and thereby reduce the amount of 'Active Mages' at a given time.

I disagree 100%.

The only thing that is changing is the play area that the storyline allows for non-mages to play in.

The number of mages will still be the same.
The play areas that allow for mages to enjoy in will still attract the mages.

The players who dislike seeing mages are removing themselves from the area of play that allow for mages.

I will not be surprised that there will be MORE mages in RED STORM, ALLANAK/'RINTH, and in the DESERT WASTES.

Fair point.

Stop playing mages, you...Mages.

Also prepare to die.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So has anyone in this thread who enjoys magickers actually had their say that there IS oppression of magickers, left and right, top to bottom, and in a pervasive way that being magickers is the biggest test of patience and dedication to a setting that I've ever roleplayed? It is as close to slavery RP as one can get in this game, and learning the learned helplessness and having characters die in droves without an option to object is something I've seen again and again and again as gemmed, and it's almost like people in this thread just haven't seen all that RP that goes on.

The above is mostly true for gemmed, where I have to keep giving kudos left and right because I get to enjoy scenes of torture or disgrace and shame and or outright denial of humanity, and it's like nobody's even paying attention.

The problem probably is moreso that the RP that is out there portraying mages in the way they ought to be played is so separated as is from the RP of the mundane side that all that is seen is when they do intersect, which often may seem like a power imbalance between magick and mundane, but the experience from the (gemmed) side at least is extremely difficult to RP and the idea of a "light degree" of social stigma is way off.

I don't think I've said that people are not trying to behave properly around mages, but rather that it gets hard OOCly to do it when everyone pops up as a mage, and I personally wish that the documented hatred was just a little more lax in Allanak, alone. I also think the primary topic of this thread, the idea of giving mundanes a way to become more attractive, is a really good line.

Personally, I've witnessed some exceptionally great mage oppression, both direct and indirect, and to be honest I probably need to also send kudos to both the oppressors and victims in a lot of these cases. But the fact remains that there've been, until now, a great many unmanifested PC witches running around, and I think the idea that for a while it seemed like every other person was a mage kind of ... kicked some people in the nuts of their low fantasy reality. Heh.

You have a good point though ... there's certainly people doing a great job at establishing a realistic setting for the mages they come across, and we can't forget them or act like they haven't been doing their part. A lot of great play from some of the mages too, in terms of presenting as one of the oppressed.

[sleepyhead]

I'm part of the problem. I don't know how to stop I just really love the aesthetic of ritual and magick. I try to play mundanes, but I miss magick so much when I do, the characters often don't click for me as much as gickers do.

[Veselka]

I'm part of the problem. I don't know how to stop I just really love the aesthetic of ritual and magick. I try to play mundanes, but I miss magick so much when I do, the characters often don't click for me as much as gickers do.

[Veselka]

I do agree that I rarely see Gemmed react like they're hot shit when they're being sufficiently suppressed.

For the most part, I don't think the RP is the problem. It's sheer quantity and numbers within the given population of PCs, secret and 'out' magickers alike. You just can't enter an area without bumping into one or two, and as SpyGuy points out, the 'discovering your friend is a mage' trope should become a popular folk song by now.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

See, here's the thing. If you only like mages, then play mages. Play what keeps you playing. I do NOT want people to not play because they feel forced into a role they don't like. I hate that with all my heart. That is the one thing that makes me want Gemmed/Mundane friendships to be sort of alright in Allanak alone. I don't want to be unable to play with somebody in the same locale as me because of "being ICly correct". Even if it's frowned upon ICly, I don't want players to be able to point at me, as a mundane, and say, "You're not following the docs", and that's why I wish the docs for Allanak alone would lessen, not eradicate, the hatred towards mages, to allow players to be within the docs if they cross paths with and run around with them.

[Alesan]

I do agree that I rarely see Gemmed react like they're hot shit when they're being sufficiently suppressed.

For the most part, I don't think the RP is the problem. It's sheer quantity and numbers within the given population of PCs, secret and 'out' magickers alike. You just can't enter an area without bumping into one or two, and as SpyGuy points out, the 'discovering your friend is a mage' trope should become a popular folk song by now.

It's started to reach a point where I just desperately hope my character's new friend is *not* a mage.

Then they end up being one anyway.

[Brokkr]

Just spitballing, but what you encounter could be a shift towards people playing awhile first, because they can, as a mundane everyday sort before manifesting vs more people in the old days just starting straight away as a magicker, because trying to hide it in the Byn was pretty much impossible.

Like a normal girl/guy before their terrible abominable-ness comes to light.

[Patuk]

Just spitballing, but what you encounter could be a shift towards people playing awhile first, because they can, as a mundane everyday sort before manifesting vs more people in the old days just starting straight away as a magicker, because trying to hide it in the Byn was pretty much impossible.

Like a normal girl/guy before their terrible abominable-ness comes to light.

I linked Aromit's post about a random month in 2020, earlier. How far do those statistics go back? I'd be interested in seeing the same data for 2013, say, and see how it compares.

[Gentleboy]

Tuluk openly is a great thing for mundanes. I am very happy (and anxious) for this! And I don't think it's a bad thing to have gicks fear the north. Now there really is a higher power that will hunt you down. The North isn't an extended tablelands! Gicks cannot hide in a place that Southern Templars cannot go. The difficulty just raised for gicks and it should. The game should be as hard for everyone (except nobles. Those rose-smelling bath soakers! Jk nobles are hard.)

[Strongheart]

See, here's the thing. If you only like mages, then play mages. Play what keeps you playing. I do NOT want people to not play because they feel forced into a role they don't like. I hate that with all my heart. That is the one thing that makes me want Gemmed/Mundane friendships to be sort of alright in Allanak alone. I don't want to be unable to play with somebody in the same locale as me because of "being ICly correct". Even if it's frowned upon ICly, I don't want players to be able to point at me, as a mundane, and say, "You're not following the docs", and that's why I wish the docs for Allanak alone would lessen, not eradicate, the hatred towards mages, to allow players to be within the docs if they cross paths with and run around with them.

That's a solid point!

[Dresan]

For most people playing a magicker is this: You are playing a mundane character without a practical sub-guild.  Your magickal sub-guild is either somewhat useful or utterly useless to your ever day life. Let me give you an example, lets say you can create water. Its useful if you are going to be playing a completely isolated role in the middle of nowhere or if you will be traveling a lot to remote places. However, in the places people play there is usually a place to buy water. The only times magick is really useful is to help you murder someone(only a  couple spells), help you spy on people mudsexing (because sleight of hand can be unreliable), and deep extended wilderness exploration. Again assuming you picked the right sub-guild because some are really useless.

The magickal plots won't go away because those are run and supported by staff. The powerful magickers won't go away because those are often special apped defilers/mindbenders  that often work with staff. And the powerful magickers won't go away because those are often sponsored roles called templars. Either way those plots aren't started or enjoyed by the random player playing a stalker/rukkian exploring a cave.

I agree that certain spells that make it easier to kill and spy freely should be looked at, however there are plenty of mundane roles you can play where if you find out your friend is a magicker its practically a death sentence for them. Eventually you'll get some friends that won't be magickers or are much better at hiding it, maintaining the mundane experience.

[number13]

Let's say you're in the Rinth or UT or some semi-civilized place like that. You're told by the docs and staff that magic-users are hated, and people fear gickery. Meanwhile, established PCs are gicks.

But there's no tools for the mundane. If it's you vs. a PC and his gick-loving friends, and they can definitely win any PvP conflict, because you've nerfed yourself by not taking a magic-using class, or you've nerfed yourself by refusing to acquire magical assistance from a PC. You have to walk on eggshells or die. The best you can do is tattle to the robes, which is an un-rinthi thing to do. (or maybe tattle to the staff-run powers that be, which is going to have mix results depending on who is doing the animating. And feels like cheating besides.)

I've been on both ends of this, the ginky and mundane, and it just feels wrong from both directions. I can absolutely see where some of my gicks pushed the envelope of what should have been plausible in the rinth, and perhaps should have been slapped down for it.

Even playing in the Tuluki sphere, you're at the mercy of magic-using (and psionic) PCs. Are they going to respect the idea that it's an area of the game world where magic is punished? Or are you going to get splatted? If they choose 'splat', then eventually a Faithful will get ahold of them, maybe, but in the meantime, your PC is already dead.

Or at least, your fun times are ruined by certain extremely annoying spells (which remain in the game, despite people hating to the be targets of these spells for 20 years now.)

Generally speaking, I actually think most modern PCs are pretty good at not overstepping the bounds. But that's artificial mercy. It's the grace of our fellow players. If a player decides to play-to-win in PvP, then they should roll a magicker. There's little to no coded downside in doing so.

[DustMight]

Let's say you're in the Rinth or UT or some semi-civilized place like that. You're told by the docs and staff that magic-users are hated, and people fear gickery. Meanwhile, established PCs are gicks.

I had hoped the phrase gick and gickers would have died a worthy death by now. That it hasn't is quite sad indeed.

...because you've nerfed yourself by not taking a magic-using class, or you've nerfed yourself by refusing to acquire magical assistance from a PC.

Nerfing and grinding is a weird way to think of a roleplaying game, IMO. That is better suited to games like WOW.

Even playing in the Tuluki sphere, you're at the mercy of magic-using (and psionic) PCs. Are they going to respect the idea that it's an area of the game world where magic is punished? Or are you going to get splatted? If they choose 'splat', then eventually a Faithful will get ahold of them, maybe, but in the meantime, your PC is already dead.

No one is equal and that fear is what makes such creatures hated and feared. Why would you fear someone who couldn't splat you at will?

Or at least, your fun times are ruined by certain extremely annoying spells (which remain in the game, despite people hating to the be targets of these spells for 20 years now.)

If a player decides to play-to-win in PvP, then they should roll a magicker.

What is this "win" that you speak of? Every one of my magickers, even those with a scrolling list of spells in the skill list have died and are now long forgotten.

Further, I would challenge this idea that it is "unrinthy" to report someone to the Templarate. I would argue that it is very rinthi to use whatever resources to better yourself, depending on the character's mindset. If your character is the type that would rat out a magicker (and most, in my read of the docs, would be), then absolutely do that. Or perhaps your the type to make friends with such a creature and wait for that vulnerable moment. Or speak openly about their magick-using arse and make sure everyone understands your position and that if they don't agree with you, well, they are about worthless as well.

Magick should be dangerous, feared, and overpowered. I, for one, enjoyed playing and fearing the sorcerers of old. Psionicsts as well. Now, if, as a mundane we are not treating them as the evil they are - that's a problem we own. Why isn't your character visiting the local sorcerer-king's representatives to offer whatever they must to help them kill such creatures? Why isn't your character in hourly devotions to your sorcerer king of choice praying for and end to such horror?

[Rashad]

What's the downside? This is Arm. Amazing powers should have amazing consequences. I don't see many already for gicks besides death for being a secret gick and running away.

Death
Being gemmed, can't even run from templars anymore
Unable to play in most clans if known mage
Staying out of Allanak so you don't get gemmed
Stay out of Luirs or declare (thus becoming a known mage) so you don't get executed

'No consequences' is a meme if you're not playing an indie in the wilderness or Red Storm. I feel like most of the complaints about magickers being too easy or too hard to kill are coming from players that have very little experience playing one.

[Maso]

To add to Rashad's list..

- A high social cost
- A very real and very low glass ceiling
- Getting hunted and turned against if you try to go rogue than get discovered.. often resulting in isolation and then death

[RavingTregils]

Nah, the few times I tried, I found wild mages incredibly easy to keep alive. Boringly so. Except the one where the spell changed underneath me.

Anyway, is Nilaz the natural hunter of other elemental mages?
What if tattooed Nilaz were ok in the north and used against those filthy other kinds in the south?
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages"  suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.

Wouldn't solve the too many gicker problem but would partially solve the forced loathing problem.

[triste]

I like RavingTregil's idea here and the general commentary about how reopening Tuluk solves this issue. I have long been an advocate for reopening Tuluk because the benefits of having an adversary or foil are not only abundantly clear in literature but also clear in the history of actual civilizations. Incidentally as many others have noted it addresses the problem in this thread as well. Go figure!

[Akaramu]

So, I agree, get rid of the aspect subs, bring back full elementalist, Keep touched.

I would probably return to the game if this ever happens. Full mages were great for casual play during odd hours with few to no interaction opportunities.

[Patuk]

So, I agree, get rid of the aspect subs, bring back full elementalist, Keep touched.

I would probably return to the game if this ever happens. Full mages were great for casual play during odd hours with few to no interaction opportunities.

If it makes you feel better, I share the same timezone you do, and playtimes during early afternoons and such are a lot more padded now.

[Akaramu]

If it makes you feel better, I share the same timezone you do, and playtimes during early afternoons and such are a lot more padded now.

With or without travel? I can never play outdoorsy characters due to having zero direction sense ...