Clan bonuses via code?

[Barsook]

To any of the staff that is following this: may we have your feedback on what was suggested?

[Bogre]

I do think it would be nifty if certain clans had skills you could learn with time in the clan + constant use. Being in X clan and attempting Y skill gives you a chance of branching it.

I wouldn't make it as hard as branching a language, which fucking sucks, but decently hard. Easier with time.

It's hard to rough circle on the Byn without guard and rescue guys please agree ;.;

I think that stuff more on these lines should be on offer, but might require either staff-support or coded leadership support. I'm all for things that help expand characters over time and encourage depth and engagement in play. You could even think up of high-end clan specific skills/perks that would be sort of end game / prestige goals for the more select clans.

Membership in Salarr as a hunter for a time, say, might open you up a weaponcrafting skill as a perk after a few years.

You've been a guard for the Arm for 3 years and are the chief criminal nabber? Well - here's a slight boost to your subdue skill. You surveil people from the rooftops? Here's a slight scan bump.

You're a member of the Tor Academy? Excellent - after your successful graduation you get <x> points in hitting people with swords and a RP note that reminds staff if you are trying some RP oratory command efforts on the desert battle arena.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm working on this list today in Notepad, since I finally have the time, and this is a big job. I'll try to have it up tonight or early tomorrow. Obviously, it's not at all something I think is a finale, but rather, a encompassing example of of a possibility. It's not to end the discussion, but rather to cast a good mold to be reshaped and argued over and whatnot ... you know how I do.

[Bogre]

Gain access to muls, magickers, and sorcerers through long term play and trust is okay, but gain a skill, or a bump to a skill, through long term play and trust in a clan is roleplay stiflingly unfair?    What a joke.

This is particularly pithy.

We have loads of people complaining about why the cities and big sponsored clans are always lacking in interested players and in filling leadership roles, or even in just playing 'mundanes'.

Yet I wonder if it's because the ceiling of achievement or potential feels stilted. Everyone looking to do something 'special' is pushing themselves to sponsored roles or karma bumped stuff. Sure, you can be a long lived warrior in whichever clan you choose. A militia sergeant/lieutenant getting +5 to subdue or +10 to scan is not going to make them suddenly broken or able to demolish people. Their crim-immunity, relationship to powerful PCs, and every other thing in their kit is going to 99% of whatever they try to do anyway. Like - the destructive scale potential is just so vastly different compared to someone apping in a fire mage, or something.

[Barsook]

It's the ceiling, that's why it feels like these roles are untouchable and they live for years on end in real life. A typical life cycle of a character should be roughly in 3 months to year and half in real life years. That seems to not happen to these roles, at least the non-Byn sarge ones.

[Kryos]

How about a different approach, based on cultivating unique identities for clans in game that aren't just some random character modification.

T'zai Byn:  Food's shit, shit's shit, but at least you always have a sparring partner.  Add NPCs that can be 'called on' if no one else is in the training hall.  Its not that the Byn cares if you live or die, its that the Byn does make more money on successful contracts, which means *someone* has to live.  And its not like you'll always get a good sparring partner.  Some times you'll be the teacher.

Oash:  You're a fucking gemmed.  This does mean however, if you're in good graces and sufficiently proven, or just have curried enough favor, that NPCs can be asked to cast certain spells on or for you.

Tor:  The Lady Tor or the Silver will teach you something new.  Assuming you aren't a screwup to the Tor name, every ig month or so you get a lesson about how to really kick ass in a fight an be an elite soldier.  This leads you down the path of becoming a Red and using one of Tor's unique fighting styles(claw or stinger).

Arm:  Already have some perks like this.  But maybe do a passing uptweak to make everything interesting to use.

Yada, yada, so on and so forth.

[triste]

How about a different approach, based on cultivating unique identities for clans in game that aren't just some random character modification.

T'zai Byn:  Food's shit, shit's shit, but at least you always have a sparring partner.  Add NPCs that can be 'called on' if no one else is in the training hall.  Its not that the Byn cares if you live or die, its that the Byn does make more money on successful contracts, which means *someone* has to live.  And its not like you'll always get a good sparring partner.  Some times you'll be the teacher.

Oash:  You're a fucking gemmed.  This does mean however, if you're in good graces and sufficiently proven, or just have curried enough favor, that NPCs can be asked to cast certain spells on or for you.

Tor:  The Lady Tor or the Silver will teach you something new.  Assuming you aren't a screwup to the Tor name, every ig month or so you get a lesson about how to really kick ass in a fight an be an elite soldier.  This leads you down the path of becoming a Red and using one of Tor's unique fighting styles(claw or stinger).

Arm:  Already have some perks like this.  But maybe do a passing uptweak to make everything interesting to use.

Yada, yada, so on and so forth.

Unclanned and Clanned Criminals: get access to more than an unescapable jail cell when they are arrested, similar to an idea CodeMaster posted in another thread, enhancing criminal playability and roleplay. Maybe make the escape option accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use. Well, now it will have an incredibly great and fitting use!

_{The pain of a true neutral alignment is when you notice things are not balanced you must speak up.}

[Riev]

Unclanned and Clanned Criminals: get access to more than an unescapable jail cell when they are arrested, similar to an idea CodeMaster posted in another thread, enhancing criminal playability and roleplay. Maybe make the escape option accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use. Well, now it will have an incredibly great and fitting use!

_{The pain of a true neutral alignment is when you notice things are not balanced you must speak up.}

Anecdotally speaking, one of the code bonuses a 'rinthi Guild should have is a way to get people out of jail before a Templar decides to pump them for information. And by "Out of Jail" I mean "assassinate their spice smuggler because they got caught and could ruin the whole situation".

Unfortunately, PCs do not go to jail by NPC means in most cases, so you'd be sneaking into a jail cell with an active PC Templar. But what a cool "code bonus" to be able to sneak in/out of city jails.

[triste]

Unclanned and Clanned Criminals: get access to more than an unescapable jail cell when they are arrested, similar to an idea CodeMaster posted in another thread, enhancing criminal playability and roleplay. Maybe make the escape option accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use. Well, now it will have an incredibly great and fitting use!

_{The pain of a true neutral alignment is when you notice things are not balanced you must speak up.}

Anecdotally speaking, one of the code bonuses a 'rinthi Guild should have is a way to get people out of jail before a Templar decides to pump them for information. And by "Out of Jail" I mean "assassinate their spice smuggler because they got caught and could ruin the whole situation".

Unfortunately, PCs do not go to jail by NPC means in most cases, so you'd be sneaking into a jail cell with an active PC Templar. But what a cool "code bonus" to be able to sneak in/out of city jails.

I think jail cell scenes are currently so brief and truncated [read, end fatally] because the current jail cell code is... not very stimulating. I remember when I first played Armageddon more than a decade ago [when I was too young for it, and played briefly], Templars were leaving me in jail cells RL days until they had time to talk to my trifling self. And I don't know, people were more patient with it and less PK happy. Now we have people posting about wanting to shorten the quit die timer. The game is naturally evolving in a certain direction, and that's fine. But if we don't address the situation here, well... CodeMaster laid it out better than me, just read what I linked.

Depending on how you classify it, roughly a third of the game's main mundane guilds are crime focused. Under the old guild classifications fully half were criminal. I just wanted to make sure the discussion here reflected these guilds and character concepts with this interjection at least in a proportion of... one out of ten or so of the bullets mentioned..

There's also that great post by Nyr mentioning Cops and Robbers, it's just about gameplay and balance. I am not asking for fairness in a real-world values contaminating Zalanthas sense, I like how Riev just elaborated on the idea because it's about keeping things gritty and unfair but interesting or "balanced" from a plot and gameplay perspective.

[Shabago]

accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use.

Bet it gets real popular when we remove key . 

[HortaCulture]

accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use.

Bet it gets real popular when we remove key . 

Why do you hate me? ._.

[Dan]

accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use.

Bet it gets real popular when we remove key . 

Why do you hate me? ._.

I feel like most people only use key . to look through packed bags, chests and rooms for stuff they already have in the open. Which search doesn't help with anyway.  It's not key . that is broken, it's search (and the containers that show up when someone does key .).

[Dar]

I wasnt aware key . actually revealed hidden exits.  I know you can sometimes locate a hidden exit by typing an exact keyword (or by typing close <hiddenexitkeyword> to confirm it's there. But for that, you need to know an actual hidden exit's name.


Only way that issue can be solved is if the keywords are different for everyone and search identifies it, or something similarly clunky.

[triste]

All of this is an amusing derail! I want to get back to the topic at hand.

In an RPI, the main metric of a successful system is roleplay. Is awesome roleplay happening? If so, great! The game is doing well.

Invisible skill boosts can just as likely hurt roleplay as help it. I want to make sure we don't just brainstorm a bunch of stat bumps for military organizations that would make life absolutely miserable for people roleplaying in a rebel/outlaw organization, for instance.

In the past players have mentioned a lack of broader conflict and a dissatisfying abundance of more trifling/petty matters in politics. I am not sure I want to operate in a system where members of the Anime Club Oashi Circle* get student body funds for their pizza parties a stat boost to spell casting while the punk/goth kids who are too cool for an after school club and are starting a band instead non-Oash gemmed of a given temple get zilch. One group of people here might be objectively driving better plots at a given moment, one group of people might be doing more IG and involving more people, one group of people here might objectively have more talent, yet, for no reason besides formality, be deprived of perks while the other people get perks just because someone logged in, initiated them into a clan, and never logged in again. I want tension to arise from wide ranging politics, not petty in-fighting over who gets free pizza from the school district better stat boosts.

I brought up CodeMaster's post as I think it echoes a good point a lot of people like Riev and Delirium have raised here: if the mechanism is something that can be interacted with [instead of an invisible, unearned stat boost], the results in terms of roleplay are generally better.

I wanted to expand and add a point today that when we brainstorm, please try to think of all the people left out when you propose a stat boost, and really consider if realistically those groups should be deprived. I don't want valuable appendages to be starved of blood and oxygen and just fall off because we were gung-ho about engorging other organs.

* I chose Oash as a random example because it came up earlier, much respect to anyone who has RPed here and the staff who oversee it, I just picked Oash and randomly compared it to an Anime Club for humor™. I want to be exceedingly clear: Oash and its players now and past are great, I just worry about what Oash + Stat Boosts might be like.

[Bogre]

Invisible skill boosts can just as likely hurt roleplay as help it. I want to make sure we don't just brainstorm a bunch of stat bumps for military organizations that would make life absolutely miserable for people roleplaying in a rebel/outlaw organization, for instance.

You've said stat boosts like 6 times in your post and maybe 25+ times in this whole thread. I don't think anyone is advocating for stat boosts.

All that's being discussed is a potential benefit and reward for membership and long-term play in a clan. For clans, this is potentially code-able and more regulated, but what I have in my mind is more of like the system that was in use for templars (in that part of the progression is incrementally rewarded). A +5 or +10 skill cap boost to a utility skill for a 30-40 days played / long lived character is not going to destroy the game or ruin independents' lives. but might make that person playing the AoD lieutenant really invested and proud of their char's achievements. Heck, a +5-10 bump to the actual weapon skill progress over the course of say, a Tor Silver Scorpion's career as they train wouldn't be gamebreaking, as this just approximates the bonuses people can jump in game with already for sponsored roles.

Things that help people roleplay and further their characters are great to explore. Players will relax and focus on actual RP if they're able to jump through less hoops to try and progress their character.

You know what's best about that? Is that it doesn't have to be limited to clans. A player-made organization can aspire to having similar perks, of course, and any long-term established character might be able to achieve something like it too. A rogue drovian who lives and watches the broken tower for the past five in game years? Maybe they get a scan cap increase. This is of course reliant on storytellers to actually help build and progress the story that's going, though.

Little perks and flavor bumps only serve to diversify and improve things, and it doesn't stomp on other people. It's not a zero sum limited fun scenario.

[triste]

You know what's best about that? Is that it doesn't have to be limited to clans

This is all you had to say to get me aboard.

This, of course, is also basically antithetical to the original post. We've gone from a direct proposal for clan-specific stat boosts, to a proposal for clan-specific something-boosts, to...



Well, not quite. You're proposing a system where everyone who rightfully earns a skill bump, clan or not, gets a skill bump. Great! That's exactly the system we have today.

[triste]

Automated solutions benefit from being able to be modeled. Let's say House Δ gives a boost to Skill Φ. House Δ is designed with characters of guild Σ in mind, as characters with guild Σ are very competent in skills related to the house, like Skill Φ. But unfortunately for players in guild Σ, they are so skilled with Skill Φ that they are already maxxed out and House Δ's skill boost does nothing for them. Every single player with a guild Σ character in House Δ now has to submit a request to have a different tweak. Maybe they aren't even requesting this for min-maxxing reasons but purely for roleplay reasons -- their character has spent years practicing Skill B, not Skill Φ, and they want an appropriate boost. But no, sadly Staff have to say, you already got a boost associated with your rank, that wouldn't be fair to other players! Or, Staff might say, but you asked for a boost to Skill Φ on the forums specifically, we just gave you what you want!

But why fuss with all this -- maybe just automate a system that works for all concepts.

[mansa]

The thing I'd like to figure out is..

How can we automate this, without having to use the request tool and rely on staff to be online to set the character's file.


If we tie it to rank, there's a couple questions to be asked:
#1 - How does the character progress in a clans rank?
#2 - If no character is at this rank currently, how do the character acquire it?

Answers:
#1 - Characters progress in rank using the 'promote' command from another character who has the "leader" flag within the clan.  You can only promote other characters to the rank you currently are, or below.
example:  If you're rank 3 - Sergeant, you can promote someone to rank 2 - Corporal, and you can promote someone to rank 3 - Sergeant, but you cannot promote someone to rank 4 - Lieutenant.
#2 - If no player characters are a rank above you, then the only way to be promoted is to interact with an NPC (or Immortal Avatar) and have that NPC/Immortal promote you to a rank higher than yourself.  Obviously, this requires immortal intervention.


So, it doesn't seem like it can be automated 100%, we have to rely on immortal intervention or immortal oversight to make sure higher-end promotions can happen and are available.


But, once the rank is achieved, then you can push out automated aspects, such as entrance to new areas that are "guarded" unless you are of a certain rank, which lead to NPC sellers / tattooists who may only have items available for those of a certain rank.

[triste]

I am really not convinced rank is the right mechanism for this, as it flatly doesn't work for the majority of character concepts.

I have a one-size fits all solution for not only this thread and the karma regen thread as well. If you allow players to spend karma on their living characters, up to their karma cap, for small benefits like skill bumps or new skills, you fix both problems in both threads for all character concepts.
- People complain that there is no incentive to play a mundane while your karma regenerates. If you have a system where people can invest in a mundane they are actively playing, they won't be tempted to store that mundane as soon as their karma regens.
- People complain that mundane focused guilds like Tor are depopulated for this reason. See point above -- let people choose their own skill bumps on a mundane and people will play mundanes, and join the clans that roleplay leads them to join.
- People complain that clans don't offer specialization or perks reflective of the clan's description. However, a flat boost per rank wouldn't reflect the nuance in these docs, and letting players select is better. The T'zai Byn shouldn't give a flat boost to "rescue" because it is known for "rough circle" because it's equally known for employing assassins who don't want to rescue anyone.

It also fixes future problems that people aren't extrapolating or predicting here. I went enough into those less than ideal outcomes in previous replies.

The work involved in implementing a system like this might suck at first, but it opens the door to more features like what people are asking for in this clan boost thread. But why not implement the two birds with one stone fix first? It's fair to new players as well because once they earn karma, they can spend it right away on their living PCs (I've heard a few players mention regret over storing over the ebullience of getting new karma). It's just a win win.

[lairos]

I enjoy the idea of skill bumps/gains for ranks as that both typically amounts to both time and RP to get there. Many strive for quite a long time to just become a Sergeant or many don't want to even rise to that position (Which can often cause the role calls rather than promoting from within) because of the demands. Getting something out of those demands to add incentive is appealing. It doesn't have to be major in any way and I would also suggest that it can only be received by getting there through play, not via role call for that role.

I will say I am against using karma for bumps while in play as that will further issues that exist today even if possibly preventing a couple others. We already have a special app method on start of play for this purpose of bumps. What a method like this would allow, without many more preventative measures, is the ability to get a bunch of gains without even having to RP and just living a long time making many further avoid dangerous situations until they are much, much further along to avoid losing their character. Even then, many would likely be apt to avoid scenarios to avoid losing eight karma points worth of them gainz. This option is further circling a whole other problem and making new ones rather than fixing the issue of people not wanting to play what they may not want to play.

[triste]

I get where you guys are coming from, but what's the RP justification? I still just see meta or non-roleplay justification, EG, "I want a perk to being a Sergeant because otherwise it's a thankless job OOCly." Great, I understand your desire for that feeling of being rewarded and appreciated, but how does it help roleplay at all?

What this does is... again, just make roleplay less great for everyone else, because for every Sergeant who will be thankful for this perk, you'll have a clan with no active Sergeant but being led by a de facto Sergeant who can't be the Sergeant due to race restrictions or what have you (I've been in this position more than once). This person stonewalled out of leadership might be the roughest, toughest leader you've ever seen, holding the whole clan together for months, but enjoys none of these arbitrarily rank-assigned perks.

Just echoing Delirium, Riev, etc -- if you materialize the perks in game rather than having this reality defying concept that "rank => special powers" results will be better.

[Dan]

To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

[triste]

To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

100% on board with this. TOOT TOOT sign me up, I'm on this train. Sheesh, I'll start updating my guild picker to pretend a system like this exists because oh boy do I want it.

[lostinspace]

I've seen a bunch of ideas in this thread, and just want to throw mine into the hat.
Instead of a flat skill boost, what if clan members got a boost to specific skills based on the number of clan members or others with that skill in the room.

1 Tor scorpion in the room, just as good as anyone else at guarding.
5 Tor scorpions in the room and you have a nearly unbeatable unit as they cover for each others flaws and weaknesses in protecting their ward.

I don't even have a problem with this training lasting past them leaving the clan. A former Byn Trooper who happens to be riding with the Byn can get the bonus, because they've had the Byn training and know how to work with the others.

Probably not the easiest thing to code, but as a bonus it could be used with creatures/npcs that fight in groups or packs.

[Barsook]

To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

100% on board with this. TOOT TOOT sign me up, I'm on this train. Sheesh, I'll start updating my guild picker to pretend a system like this exists because oh boy do I want it.

I dig this. Give us more reason to use karma!