Armageddon General Discussion Board

Has this been discussed? This is just an inquiry not because I see any glaring issues.

I had thought about clans, and largely I think this must have developed from leadership roles and ideas around how to be appealing as a clan or retain players--I think it has more potential than that and also potential downsides.

What do folks think about the ability for clan titles and ranks to bestow coded bonuses to the PC player?

A rank in Oash for a mage might perhaps grant a bonus to wisdom gains for spell failures, or maybe like a 5% resistance to all elemental magick types or something fitting the storyline of that position

An elite fighting clan might get like a bonus once hitting a certain rank to defending against multiple attackers.

Ya know. Almost like a 'faction' bonus earned via long affiliation. Just shot gunning from the hip here. I do see the downsides already of like, super twinks guild/subguild/race their PC once they figure out a bonus to just be ridiculous.

Just curious about feedback on this or if it had been discussed in the past.

I think that might lead into more of the fantasy of the world.

Should Oashi Gemmed get a perk towards Magick?
Should Guild get a perk towards thievery/stealth?
Should Byn get a perk towards combat?
Should the Tribals get a perk towards x?


You can either do that by:
clan membership or rank
clan provided items


Downsides:
Favourtism towards clan membership.


Which leads to the question - Should clans have items that give perks, or should it be more even play to non-clanned characters?


...

I've witnessed things in the past that have favoured one clan over another, and the thing that bothered me was that I couldn't make a character that joined up, eventually - that I couldn't get those perks via in game means versus out-of-game setup means.   That bothered me a lot.

I'm curious about the exclusion you felt in that.

Aren't clans always recruiting and trying to retain members? I haven't played in a city for awhile so I am not on the pulse. I feel like we have enough indy players to maintain that balance.

I do remember a time when players complained about not enough indy players, also, though.

I'd like to think these weren't mindblowing bonuses, maybe like the final highest tier you could attain would be a little more noticeable. This would provide an incentive to achieve.

I am thinking of GMH clans now. Kadius and *Salarr at least, if you aren't using fear, struggle here. A guy can be a basic crafter and just be filthy rich even though the house pay sucks. He can just make anything even as a crafter. He probably doesn't GAF if he makes trainee or not at that point, and once he makes trainee he def. doesn't gaf about higher elevation. I'm obviously watering this down, but you get what I mean. Some places might benefit from meaning to the ranks where the roleplay does not suffice.

This is also allowing players to vie for power positions in a way instead of roleplay. Idk. I shall ponder.

I am indifferent to the idea as a whole.  But I would suggest it was rank-based not item-based.  Items can be nicked, after all.

Rank-based suggests your 'higher ups' have dedicated X amount of time (while you were offline) training you to be better at Y for the reason to make them look good.

We already have plenty of item-based buffs for various things, after all.

It should be more like a racial bonus to whatever.  It would also be nice if it was persistent - if you achieved B rank of Z clan and get bonus 123, if you leave and join P clan, you keep the 123 bonus (since you wouldn't forget your training).

But obviously you start the benefits post rookie stage, so people don't move around a lot just to get the buffs.  It is just a nice little incentive for surviving and sticking around in the same clan long enough to get recognised and promoted?

I'm overall against this idea and don't see it being a thing. Clans get their bonuses from facilities (sparring rings), clanned crafting recipes (you're not a better jeweler but Kadius offers you special recipes and presumably techniques to make the most beautiful toe rings) and supples (whether that's money, water and food or just unlimited arrows).

Getting a flat skill bonus from being in a certain clan doesn't make much sense to me under the current guild/subguild system.

This has been discussed before.  I remember bringing it up, in terms of the Tor Academy.

Bonus to going to the Tor Academy, vs getting a year of training in the Byn?  There are none, really.  Unless we actually code in something that makes it more desirable for those who can afford it.  Tor Scorpions and Tor Academy graduates gain a bump to the -max- of a selected skill or two based on the emphasis of their training, etc.

This was extended to other clans.  It was a shot down idea.  But I always liked it, as long as there was careful consideration involved.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 04, 2020, 04:04:32 AM
This has been discussed before.  I remember bringing it up, in terms of the Tor Academy.

Bonus to going to the Tor Academy, vs getting a year of training in the Byn?  There are none, really.  Unless we actually code in something that makes it more desirable for those who can afford it.  Tor Scorpions and Tor Academy graduates gain a bump to the -max- of a selected skill or two based on the emphasis of their training, etc.

This was extended to other clans.  It was a shot down idea.  But I always liked it, as long as there was careful consideration involved.

From what I read of Tor Academy the Byn would prob get you better results with more sparring.

See now we're cooking.

Yeah I like the idea of rank based as opposed to item based, and for some of the very reasons mentioned.

What accumulated in all that offline virtual time for 10 years while you were X clan?

Why should it be that the Byn is a more desired location than the Tor Scorpions? Because its a high volume clan?

If my PC heard someone in game, talking about anyone other than a Tor scorpion being the best fighting force in Allanak, he'd laugh at them. Why?

Filling those types of gaps is the idea.

Arm how brutal would it be to find that thread you're talking about and post it here? Or was it a clan specific discussion? And was it like Nyr shot down or like Halaster shot down?

Quote from: SpyGuy on November 04, 2020, 03:45:53 AM
I'm overall against this idea and don't see it being a thing. Clans get their bonuses from facilities (sparring rings), clanned crafting recipes (you're not a better jeweler but Kadius offers you special recipes and presumably techniques to make the most beautiful toe rings) and supples (whether that's money, water and food or just unlimited arrows).

Getting a flat skill bonus from being in a certain clan doesn't make much sense to me under the current guild/subguild system.

Hmm. Are those really clan benefits right now? You don't need a sparring ring now that people can bang out in their apartments with cheaply made sparring gear, or go buy tents and set up at a remote foraging location and spar all day and night. You don't need clan specific crafting recipes right now because economy.

If a player can't figure out how to kill a chalton and cook it 5 rooms away in the Gaj, Armageddon isn't for that player. Water is arguable as supplied.

I do think it would be nifty if certain clans had skills you could learn with time in the clan + constant use. Being in X clan and attempting Y skill gives you a chance of branching it.

I wouldn't make it as hard as branching a language, which fucking sucks, but decently hard. Easier with time.

It's hard to rough circle on the Byn without guard and rescue guys please agree ;.;

Quote from: Aruven on November 04, 2020, 08:34:07 AM

Quote from: SpyGuy on November 04, 2020, 03:45:53 AM
I'm overall against this idea and don't see it being a thing. Clans get their bonuses from facilities (sparring rings), clanned crafting recipes (you're not a better jeweler but Kadius offers you special recipes and presumably techniques to make the most beautiful toe rings) and supples (whether that's money, water and food or just unlimited arrows).

Getting a flat skill bonus from being in a certain clan doesn't make much sense to me under the current guild/subguild system.

Hmm. Are those really clan benefits right now? You don't need a sparring ring now that people can bang out in their apartments with cheaply made sparring gear, or go buy tents and set up at a remote foraging location and spar all day and night. You don't need clan specific crafting recipes right now because economy.

If a player can't figure out how to kill a chalton and cook it 5 rooms away in the Gaj, Armageddon isn't for that player. Water is arguable as supplied.

Sparring rings are just one type of facility.  Warehouses, wagons, and estates are others.  Also sparring outside has risks that sparring in the Byn compound doesn't have.  Not to mention clans like the Byn give you access to many sparring partners. Some apartments may allow sparring, others don't.  But I've seen staff discourage using lived in apartments as sparring rings.

Point taken that if the goal is making coin you're probably better off as an independent.  Fewer restrictions on selling and no House share assuming you can get skilled up and get your supply going.  But clan specific gear has the benefit of being highly desirable and presumably better quality.  Salarr has the techniques to make better weapons and armor than Amos the artisan.  Kurak has quite a few awesome items.  Wearing Kadian gear is presumably more luxurious. For PC to PC sales it's better to be clanned but again that may not be the best way to make coin.

This feels too videogamey and like it would detract from immersion and realism.

It also puts player made organizations at a disadvantage which I 100% do not approve of. We would never have clans like the Soh Lanah Kah or the Crimson Wind if the Militia and Kuraci Fist got "speshul muscle bonusez" or however these boosts would show up in score/stats. And I like any Soh 1000% more than a twink who joined a guild for a "muscle bonus." So glad these antagonistic player made clans never had to contend against that: these player made clans fought themselves into existence through skill and merit alone.

Seems best to keep our ecosystem one in which factions fight with tactics and earned talent, not "+1 archery cuz ur an elf in an elf clannn."

_{Ironically though this notion came to mind because I have started working at a company known for having the hardest interviews in the world, an acceptance rate lower than Harvard or any Ivy League, and a reputation for having smart employees. Early on I was learning so much and having headaches and I wondered, joking to myself in a way I would never say outloud, wow, is this headache from the literal strain of all this learning and computation; is my brain literally adapting, am I becoming smarter? It is quite possible if you measured my IQ before and after starting this job it would have gone up (as I stated earlier IQ is a flawed measure ofc). But, if I were to ever seriously say "Yes working at company ____ makes you smarter than other people, people who work at company ____ are just plain smarter than other people," well, that would make me a delusional asshole wouldn't it? Who for one second would ever make an assertion like that IRL? No one who actually is smart. I pray, PRAY, we never see something like this in Arm and the bad roleplay it would produce.}

TLDR SpyGuy is right so far.

Having an Npc with master in some skill give a lecture and teach everybody in the room (clanned area). This would aid immersion in the game, give a coded boost to those who care about that, and give an npc that immortals can animate to mix up the grind with. 

It would also help display, cool gear and customcrafts aside, it's the people in the clan that really draw people in.  Tor Academy is great because nobody else can teach you swordwork like them.  Byn is great because nobody else can teach you how to run away from a fight, or shovel shit, in the same way. 

Players that can instruct (and are willing) are always better.  But just giving a bonus because you're in a clan, I dislike.

I will admit to experimenting with something like this recently.

However, it is more about availability "bonus" than "extra" bonus.  And it is not completely riskless.

Quote from: Aruven on November 04, 2020, 08:29:00 AM
Arm how brutal would it be to find that thread you're talking about and post it here? Or was it a clan specific discussion? And was it like Nyr shot down or like Halaster shot down?

I'm not Arm, but it wasn't that brutal, assuming this (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49514.msg889812.html#msg889812) is the correct thread from 2015.
You were involved in the conversation, Aruven.

Quote from: slipshod on November 04, 2020, 11:54:38 AM

Quote from: Aruven on November 04, 2020, 08:29:00 AM
Arm how brutal would it be to find that thread you're talking about and post it here? Or was it a clan specific discussion? And was it like Nyr shot down or like Halaster shot down?

I'm not Arm, but it wasn't that brutal, assuming this (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49514.msg889812.html#msg889812) is the correct thread from 2015.
You were involved in the conversation, Aruven.

Bwaha, thanks mate. I didn't peel through that whole thread but yeah looks like I am revisiting what was mentioned again here and what wizturbo was theorizing on there. Whelp. I cant keep the GDB, topics, and my brain straight anymore.

Quote from: Aruven on November 03, 2020, 09:52:26 PM
I'm curious about the exclusion you felt in that.

Aren't clans always recruiting and trying to retain members? ...

...

Everything I remember is tainted and probably incorrect, but in the past I seem to recall:

"Sparring" weapons being clanlocked and unable to purchase in shops.   If you had a sparring weapon, people would know the only source of that item was from clan x.
"Spurs" items that give + to movement and +skills being clanlocked.    If you had the only spur item, people know the singular source of the item is from clan x.
...I might be remembering the past wrong, though.  I am quite elderly.


Basically, the question becomes:
If an ItemPerkBonus exists only for a specific clan, should there be an alternative ItemPerkBonus that is available through other means, and will it be as equal in PerkBonus ?


examples:
If you join House Kurac, they have +50 movement boots for their clan members, but the maximum +movement boots you can buy in the game is +40.
If you join House Salarr, their clan issued swords give +50 to slashing damage, but the best / most expensive sword you can get from Salarr shops gives +40.
If you join the Byn, their sparring weapons do 1d2 damage, but the only sparring weapons you can buy from the shop do 1d5 damage.
If you join the Guild, their clan boots give +75 to sneak, but the best non-clan "footpads" in game only give +50.
If you join Oash, they give you access to <thingy> and <thingy> just for having the clan tag, but you can never get access to it without the clan membership.
If you join the Sun Runners, you get access to an item to make alcohol, but nobody else in the game is allowed to have access to a similar item.


I could go on with more examples, but the premise I'm talking about is:

a) Should clans have the "best" item available in game to their members ?
b) Can these items exist outside the clan at the same level of "best" ?
c) Should the difficulty of obtaining these items be such that it is "easier" in a clan, and harder in a non-clan, but in the end still obtainable ?
d) Should the fantasy of Zalanthas be used to explain the gatekeeping of such items?



I know that if I'm playing a character and I see other characters with cool items, and I attempt to get the same cool items and get rejected, I'll probably get envious and jealous that I'm unable to attain them.  And I believe that jealousy of the faster progression of other characters in the game compared to my own will breed discontent.  Why can't I buy my own sparring dummy and put it in my apartment!!!

I don't think there's a good answer, and I think it will have to be case-by-case depending on the PerkBonus.

Quote from: mansa on November 04, 2020, 01:20:55 PM
Basically, the question becomes:
If an ItemPerkBonus exists only for a specific clan, should there be an alternative ItemPerkBonus that is available through other means, and will it be as equal in PerkBonus ?

There are clan-only items, typically because of logo or whatever, but sometimes as non-obvious signs of belonging to a group or only available through a group.

Sometimes those items are better than you can otherwise get.  Such bonuses aren't really game-breaking.

We are not looking to maintain some parity between what you can get in a clan with such items and when you get as an independent.  There are tradeoffs between the clans on what gets what, and even by rank.  Given the nature of the gameworld, being an independent should be harder in some respects.  And there are certainly respects in which being an independent is easier, although whether those aspects should exist as they do currently is debatable.

Having a hell of a morning here, sorry for sloppiness.

I am not sure why we want Player Made clans to be at a disadvantage more than they already are. I thought "be the change" was one of the motivating ethos of this game! I would only be on board with clan perks if we also form clearer guidelines around player made clan creation so everyone gets a piece of the pie and the game remains creative. I worry about clan perks suppressing player made clans, which were already too much of a struggle to form. What this change would do is corrupt roleplay incentives by mixing in gameplay incentives in a way that is gamey / tackier than this game deserves.

To sidetrack the conversation slightly..

Wouldn't it be cool if a single NPC Merchant had different inventory availability based on clan tag / clan rank ?

That way, you can go to a Salarri NPC as a Byn Runner and type 'list' and see a bunch of shitty armors, and then go to the exact same Salarri NPC as a  Seargent of the Byn, and see both shitty armor AND some better armors that are limited to characters of a social rank ?

That would be some clan bonuses applied to NPC Merchants in various places.

Quote from: mansa on November 04, 2020, 01:53:54 PM
To sidetrack the conversation slightly..

Wouldn't it be cool if a single NPC Merchant had different inventory availability based on clan tag / clan rank ?

That way, you can go to a Salarri NPC as a Byn Runner and type 'list' and see a bunch of shitty armors, and then go to the exact same Salarri NPC as a  Seargent of the Byn, and see both shitty armor AND some better armors that are limited to characters of a social rank ?

That would be some clan bonuses applied to NPC Merchants in various places.

That would be cool.  It would also be cool if the entire store inventory was still visible in the merchant NPC's 'list', but when a peon or pc of insufficient rank attempts to 'view' or 'buy' an item out of their reach the shopkeeper would shame them and call them out in front of other customers for being 'too lowly' and forgetting their place.

Yes, but why would we want something like this. This is a Role Play Intensive game, not Diablo III. The key motivation in Armageddon is roleplay, not gear and perks.

Here's a little scene I imagine in the future if we had clan perks like this:

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf says, looking across the table at you:
  "Your Salarri keepers have been underpaying you for years. I remember when we met some two, three years ago, you enlisted with some hope of parading around in Silt Horror plate. And I don't see a single piece of it upon you. Why don't you work for me?"

You say, regarding the lean, kohl-eyed half-elf closely:
  "Alright, I am listening to you... what do you have to offer?"

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf says, with a tight smile preceeding her words:
   "Well, for one, you'll have your silt-horror plate, and none other like it. I'll make you a full suit to your specifications. I also have in my crew an ex-Byn Sergeant -- ah, I believe you were lovers in the past, she still mentioned being fond? Either way, I'll also give you three large, half now, and half after you help us for a year."

You think, ICly, "Wow, that is far more than Salarr has ever offered me. And I miss my old Sergeant... I should definitely take this offer."

You think, OOCly, "But my character will lose their +2 Salarri strength bonus and my character needs that because he has low strength."

You tell the lean, kohl-eyed half-elf, with reservation:
  "I can't."

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf purrs in Allundean:
  "Why? I know you've never gotten an offer this good in your life: you're a breed like me. Why, I even have a spare ratlon I can lend you."

You think, OOCly, "Fuck, how do I roleplay this."

You say:
   "Uh... because Salarr makes me stronger."

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf laughs, as if amused:
   "What, is this about /food/? Oh, I can /feed/ you... And Silt Horror plate is far stronger than those raptor leathers you're wearing now."

You say, struggling to roleplay through this metagamey situation:
   "But... what is your crew /known/ for. Are you, uh... /fast/. Or do you... track well? Or something?"

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf squints:
   "What are you getting at?"

You OOC, feeling like an asshole: "Uh what perks does your clan have?"

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf OOCs: "None, I am trying to start a clan that will get some. :)"

You say, resigned and struggling to stay in character still, making a bad decision you know only has OOC motivations that never needed to be introduced to the game:
   "I am sorry... I just can't and I can't really explain why. Maybe try to find me in a few years and we'll talk again."

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf thinks, OOCly: "Damn, I used to be able to make player-made clans in the past, but now people care more about powergaming than roleplay. I guess we shouldn't have valued gameplay more than roleplay as a community."


Yeah, no. If I ever see something like this in game, I'd know clan perks were a terrible mistake.

You  can argue the same exact thing with a crafter character in all the merchant houses being unable to leave less they magically lose the ability to turn X generic item into Y mastercrafted Merchant House Bad Ass because the minute they get unclanned they forget how.

Quote from: Jihelu on November 04, 2020, 02:22:15 PM
You  can argue the same exact thing with a crafter character in all the merchant houses being unable to leave less they magically lose the ability to turn X generic item into Y mastercrafted Merchant House Bad Ass because the minute they get unclanned they forget how.

Happens to be another case great roleplayers have complained about, because it allows gameplay to trump roleplay/realism/immersion considerations. So my question is, why do we want to make a decision to harm roleplay in the name of gameplay more than is necessary? If I get a good reason why besides "Sweet boosts and I get to kill things easier," I could be convinced. But I haven't seen justification so far besides it would "be cool." How, exactly, are OOC / meta stat boosts that are impossible to roleplay elegantly game improving?

Don't make character bonuses based on clan/level.
Make character bonuses based on gear that SHOULDN'T be available unless you are a certain clan/clan level.

Give me +2 strength for being in the Byn, but only because I'm wearing some Byn-only vambraces or something. Allow me to parade around in the equipment I EARNED, and if you see anyone in those Byn-only vambraces and they aren't a Bynner? IMMEDIATE point of conflict.

Similarly, let me have my +5% endurance from Kurac, but base it on a Kurac-only item. Bring the bonuses in game and allow them to be a resource that can be bought or traded. Then, ENFORCE their clan locks. Some non-Salarri running around in a plated salarri bracer designed ONLY for Crew Leaders? Salarr now MUST get that back. Hire the Byn. Hire the Guild. Kill the guy. Offer to buy it. Do SOMETHING to get your property back.

One thing that never fails to impress me as I grow older is the value of having "the right tool for the job".
I consider myself fairly handy, and capable of occasional Macguyver-esque flashes of inspiration,  but if I've been toiling away at some task using my improvised homemade tool or some cheap brand-X knockoff version, and someone hands me a top-of-the-line stainless steel, NASA-laser balanced, refined version of the same tool or gear, the ease and efficiency with which I can then complete the task is often such an exponential improvement that it seems like magic(k).

The idea that Merchant Houses who have been able to devote hundreds of years to refining designs, utilizing the best materials, and passing that knowledge on to future generations of workers and innovators would in turn develop far superior products that even the most dedicated and well-funded independent could not replicate or compete with in a single lifetime of effort... is not a hard pill for me to swallow, and seems to jive with IC reasoning and role play without becoming an issue of cool gear that breaks realism and immersion.

If you put these badass clan bonuses on equipment then you're going to make the crimson wind way more badass. If those items are fiercely guarded from outsiders that's just an extra non meta reason for the crimson wind to wear all of your overpowered stat bonus clan gear :D yo ho ho

Quote from: slipshod on November 04, 2020, 02:48:19 PM
One thing that never fails to impress me as I grow older is the value of having "the right tool for the job".
I consider myself fairly handy, and capable of occasional Macguyver-esque flashes of inspiration,  but if I've been toiling away at some task using my improvised homemade tool or some cheap brand-X knockoff version, and someone hands me a top-of-the-line stainless steel, NASA-laser balanced, refined version of the same tool or gear, the ease and efficiency with which I can then complete the task is often such an exponential improvement that it seems like magic(k).

The idea that Merchant Houses who have been able to devote hundreds of years to refining designs, utilizing the best materials, and passing that knowledge on to future generations of workers and innovators would in turn develop far superior products that even the most dedicated and well-funded independent could not replicate or compete with in a single lifetime of effort... is not a hard pill for me to swallow, and seems to jive with IC reasoning and role play without becoming an issue of cool gear that breaks realism and immersion.

I took an Italian cooking class with a friend and the instructor said exactly this.

The instructor said in Versailles the chefs picked and shaped wood/twigs carefully and masterfully to make a new whisk for every meal, then throw them out. Another story I heard about the invention of Bombe Glacée goes along these lines.

It's an interesting debate, and fully agreed it's superior to manifest clan perks in game in a way that can be roleplayed with. I am strongly opposed to flat stat boosts that are by definition OOC/meta constructs. But bonuses materialized in game that can be interacted with are great!

Sidenote on this sidenote: if it is not possible already, allow indie crafters to make their custom crafts clan locked if they ever have the luck of forming a clan.

If they don't have the luck of forming a clan, they die with their trade secrets just like many crafters of yore have.

Besides speaking up for roleplay, my main dog in this fight is being fair to player made clans, I would only be on board if any perk given to a clan is applicable to people working on forming a player made clan as well. Elven crafters without a tribe for instance are tremendously effed over and a flat stat boost for clannies would eff them over more. But if they are able to make their own tribe and transfer their crafts over as clan crafts it is less stiffling. You have to give indies with the hope of starting a clan or competing business not necessarily a fair chance, but access to the same mechanisms and hope that they can succeed without their efforts being nipped in the bud by metagame related factors.

What about the gameworld makes you think this should be fair?

Or are you importing RL bias into the game?

Quote from: Brokkr on November 04, 2020, 04:19:21 PM
What about the gameworld makes you think this should be fair?

Or are you importing RL bias into the game?

Not at all! To quote myself: "You have to give indies with the hope of starting a clan or competing business not necessarily a fair chance." Literally, by the word, said I am not asking for fairness.

I am saying whatever mechanism to this needs to be something people can interface with and roleplay with. That necessarily makes it something all roleplayers can interact with (see Riev's thievery scenario as well).

A flat stat boost is a meta effect that only hurts roleplay, in contrast.

I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

Quote from: Hauwke on November 04, 2020, 04:34:16 PM
I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

Quote from: betweenford on November 04, 2020, 05:01:35 PM

Quote from: Hauwke on November 04, 2020, 04:34:16 PM
I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

This is a fact made more acute by the persistent shop inventory change. Merchants in clans, as a matter of mathematical fact, have much more earning potential. You have more diversified products in a system where demand is finitely capped per product.

Quote from: triste on November 04, 2020, 05:09:05 PM

Quote from: betweenford on November 04, 2020, 05:01:35 PM

Quote from: Hauwke on November 04, 2020, 04:34:16 PM
I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

This is a fact made more acute by the persistent shop inventory change. Merchants in clans, as a matter of mathematical fact, have much more earning potential. You have more diversified products in a system where demand is finitely capped per product.

Sort of.   That may be true for some clans/items but a few things keep clan items from being used as massive money makers in shops. 

1) The price shops are willing to buy it at is too low compared to the inputs. In a few cases I've seen items are vastly underpriced compared to the recipe.

2) GMH are therefore encouraged to keep the good gear out of shops so that it can be sold for higher prices because it's more exclusive. 

The real money maker for indy crafters is finding the recipes that offer 5x or more returns.  Certain crafting skills are MUCH better for this than others (I assume this is true because the economy rework is currently underway and partially done).

An unneeded and fake example based on experience. Sunlon hide has 8 unclanned crafting recipes.  It costs me 50 coins to get one and I can usually get 6 a week.  6 of those recipes sell for 40-80 coins.  One sells for 200 and the last for 250.  It only makes sense to make the two recipes that sell well and fill up shops with those.

Quote from: SpyGuy on November 04, 2020, 09:30:16 PM

Quote from: triste on November 04, 2020, 05:09:05 PM

Quote from: betweenford on November 04, 2020, 05:01:35 PM

Quote from: Hauwke on November 04, 2020, 04:34:16 PM
I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

This is a fact made more acute by the persistent shop inventory change. Merchants in clans, as a matter of mathematical fact, have much more earning potential. You have more diversified products in a system where demand is finitely capped per product.

Sort of.   That may be true for some clans/items but a few things keep clan items from being used as massive money makers in shops. 

1) The price shops are willing to buy it at is too low compared to the inputs. In a few cases I've seen items are vastly underpriced compared to the recipe.

2) GMH are therefore encouraged to keep the good gear out of shops so that it can be sold for higher prices because it's more exclusive. 

The real money maker for indy crafters is finding the recipes that offer 5x or more returns.  Certain crafting skills are MUCH better for this than others (I assume this is true because the economy rework is currently underway and partially done).

An unneeded and fake example based on experience. Sunlon hide has 8 unclanned crafting recipes.  It costs me 50 coins to get one and I can usually get 6 a week.  6 of those recipes sell for 40-80 coins.  One sells for 200 and the last for 250.  It only makes sense to make the two recipes that sell well and fill up shops with those.

Given that House crafters can make special clan locked recipes and all the recipes an indie makes, and given that sales volume is capped at five per item per merchant per day, House crafters have more earning potential as a mathematical and logical fact. It's just... a mathematical fact not really refutable in most circumstances that you model this scenario. Very rarely are any of these items actually unprofitable, so what Ford and I are saying here is just a fact arithmetically.

But this is a tangent that gets at a larger question.

Why is what OP asked for needed? All I see here is people want it because it would "be cool," which is not terribly good justification given it disincentivizes making player-run / independent organizations and artificially impacts roleplay. Player-run organizations are something staff have tried to incentivize given other changes, not disincentivize. Staff would also like us generally to be less obsessed with stats, for example, if you suicide characters to get better stats you will be banned. The alternate argument of maybe adding more special tools/objects for clans is also nice, and essentially something we already have. So what is the point of providing a flat stat boost / metagame incentives? How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

The way you are leading the conversation around economics is kind of hurting my head to relate to the original idea.

It has nothing to do with being fun, though it could be fun. It has nothing to do with meta gaming, though its being universally acknowledged it could be abused that way in various forms.

Take a guy who's played in the AoD for 2 RL years and whatever the equivalent is in game. His coded promotion beyond sergeant in reality actually has no structure to it in the game world. There's no way for him to act and roleplay out the other perceived responsibilities of his rank in a military unit. Yet we don't want to glass ceiling cap clans. The idea is to reach into the imagination and decide what the pay offs of such an investment are for a person ICly and OOCly that would make sense befitting that particular clan in this particular gameworld.

So I guess part of the idea around theory is incentive to clan. Its not -needed- as much as just a discussion around it and the various ways it could look, which I am otherwise enjoying.

Quote from: triste on November 04, 2020, 10:22:03 PM
...How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

Imagine working as a gemmed magicker for the Citystate of Allanak, and you've progressed far in your craft.  - Because you've worn the Gem for so long, and have respect from the Red Robed templars - you are granted a spell that you can channel through Tektolnes, rather than through your element.  (But, really, once you reach rank 5 in the clan, it's automatically granted to any magicker)


Imagine you've been a clanned member of House Borsail Wyverns, and after a while, you've been granted access to a 'cage' type item that lets you subdue creatures and throw them into the cage and they cannot escape.  You can even do it successfully without the subdue skill.  (Only people in the clan can withdraw the cage item from the Borsail NPC bank)


Imagine that you're a member of a city-elf clan that historically prides itself on being able to run faster than any other city elf.  And when you wear their boots, your run speed is increased.  (The boots of swiftness are race-locked to city-elf, and the NPC merchant that sells the boots is race-locked to city-elf)


These are just ideas that can help facilitate storylines, much like equipping an axe rather than a sword can facilitate a different story to the characters involved.

The other reason, is directly roleplay. Like the Tor examples given. What makes Tor appealing but also lore appropriate and what benefits could be realistic for a force like that. Then we kinda got into the GMH side.

Quote from: mansa on November 04, 2020, 10:40:16 PM

Quote from: triste on November 04, 2020, 10:22:03 PM
...How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

Imagine working as a gemmed magicker for the Citystate of Allanak, and you've progressed far in your craft.  - Because you've worn the Gem for so long, and have respect from the Red Robed templars - you are granted a spell that you can channel through Tektolnes, rather than through your element.  (But, really, once you reach rank 5 in the clan, it's automatically granted to any magicker)


Imagine you've been a clanned member of House Borsail Wyverns, and after a while, you've been granted access to a 'cage' type item that lets you subdue creatures and throw them into the cage and they cannot escape.  You can even do it successfully without the subdue skill.  (Only people in the clan can withdraw the cage item from the Borsail NPC bank)


Imagine that you're a member of a city-elf clan that historically prides itself on being able to run faster than any other city elf.  And when you wear their boots, your run speed is increased.  (The boots of swiftness are race-locked to city-elf, and the NPC merchant is race-locked to city-elf)


These are just ideas that can help facilitate storylines, much like equipping an axe rather than a sword can facilitate a different story to the characters involved.

Yeah, perfect. Struggling myself to articulate here.

Quote from: Aruven on November 04, 2020, 10:41:40 PM

Quote from: mansa on November 04, 2020, 10:40:16 PM

Quote from: triste on November 04, 2020, 10:22:03 PM
...How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

Imagine working as a gemmed magicker for the Citystate of Allanak, and you've progressed far in your craft.  - Because you've worn the Gem for so long, and have respect from the Red Robed templars - you are granted a spell that you can channel through Tektolnes, rather than through your element.  (But, really, once you reach rank 5 in the clan, it's automatically granted to any magicker)


Imagine you've been a clanned member of House Borsail Wyverns, and after a while, you've been granted access to a 'cage' type item that lets you subdue creatures and throw them into the cage and they cannot escape.  You can even do it successfully without the subdue skill.  (Only people in the clan can withdraw the cage item from the Borsail NPC bank)


Imagine that you're a member of a city-elf clan that historically prides itself on being able to run faster than any other city elf.  And when you wear their boots, your run speed is increased.  (The boots of swiftness are race-locked to city-elf, and the NPC merchant is race-locked to city-elf)


These are just ideas that can help facilitate storylines, much like equipping an axe rather than a sword can facilitate a different story to the characters involved.

Yeah, perfect. Struggling myself to articulate here.

So a restatement of what myself and others have already said is perfect, agreed: items are fine, things that generate roleplay via various mechanics are fine. But not flat stat boosts, the topic in the original post. Myself and others elucidated well why that particularly is a bad idea.

Collectively we've iterated on and synthesized a good idea.

I'm aboard.  More ways to grow a character's code complexity IG other than the initial class/subclass choice sounds like a lot of fun.  I've always been a clan junkie.  They have a lot of value from an RP/gameplay point of view.

Imagine...

A Byn Sargent clan rank grants a few combat move called "Battle Shout" that will force all followers to do one of the following:
* Dismount
* Flee in a certain direction
or
* Get +1% defense for 10 minutes

A Tor Academy tattoo that grants the wearer + to scan

A House Kadius tool that grants the wielder the ability to craft House Kadius clanned items.  This tool cannot be created, but is only sold by an NPC in the clan to other clan members.

A "Guild" clan rank that grants + to listen
A "Guild" clan rank that grants shitty NPCs to spawn and assist in certain rooms if the character is in combat in that room.

A "junior noble" rank that gives + to barrier.

A "templar" rank that gives + towards poison resist.


Oh man, there's so many possibilities out there.

Nah, no stat boosts.

Quote from: mansa
A "Guild" clan rank that grants + to listen

What happens if you get dumped from a clan? You suddenly stop hearing better?

I am busting a gut thinking of how the clan-dump death will be even deadlier now. You clan dump someone and their armor gets so heavy they cannot run as a result of losing their clan +2 to strength.

If you /don't/ lose stat boosts after getting clan dumped, then some people will rotate clans and destroy plots for gains.

As already stated, most players would have even less reason to join an independent organization. We'll lose so many awesome plots that come from small player groups like that.

Whatever clan has the misfortune of only giving boosts to "dump stats" will become depopulated except by people like me who are annoyed by metagameyness destroying the game.

The community will delight in discussing which clans get which gainz either here, on discord, or on the shadowboard creating drama that again is not related to thoughtful roleplay, but is related to stats.

On board with the items, but not the stat boosts, because they are fundamentally illogical and break immersion. This is an RPI.

I'll be quiet in this thread, but there are a lot of solid reasons to not give flat stat boosts. I don't want to see the character of this game become more like World of Warcraft or what have you with the unrealistic stat boosts.

I'd be thrilled if training areas in clans would give boosts to learning and performance.

So crafting areas give crafting bonus to success (Might already be happening due to stationary objects)

Sparring areas give learning bonuses to people sparring in them.

I wouldnt mind having training sessions that give temporary skills.

Like for example, spending time in Byn training area, would set a flag on you that gave you subdue/bash/guard skill bonus of +10. It would be an affect that would eventually wear off with an echo of something like, "Your memories of T'zai Byn training begin to dim."   That bonus shouldnt be grandiose, but having that skill even on low levels and not having it at all is a big difference. At the same time, it'll be more then just having rank in a clan, but you'd actually need to spend time in certain locations to achieve it.

Perhaps if you do guard duty at the gates/barracks, while being AoD would give you a short lived +10 scan bonus.


Make it frequent and intricate enough, different bonuses for different clans, in different situations. Would it make it a little more gamey? +1 to whatever? Maybe. But it will also encourage clannies to spend time together in the same locale. Gather enough PCs in one place and at least two plots and four murders will occur.  Always a good thing.

Quote from: Dar on November 05, 2020, 12:58:41 AM
I'd be thrilled if training areas in clans would give boosts to learning and performance.

So crafting areas give crafting bonus to success (Might already be happening due to stationary objects)

Sparring areas give learning bonuses to people sparring in them.

I wouldnt mind having training sessions that give temporary skills.

Like for example, spending time in Byn training area, would set a flag on you that gave you subdue/bash/guard skill bonus of +10. It would be an affect that would eventually wear off with an echo of something like, "Your memories of T'zai Byn training begin to dim."   That bonus shouldnt be grandiose, but having that skill even on low levels and not having it at all is a big difference. At the same time, it'll be more then just having rank in a clan, but you'd actually need to spend time in certain locations to achieve it.

Perhaps if you do guard duty at the gates/barracks, while being AoD would give you a short lived +10 scan bonus.


Make it frequent and intricate enough, different bonuses for different clans, in different situations. Would it make it a little more gamey? +1 to whatever? Maybe. But it will also encourage clannies to spend time together in the same locale. Gather enough PCs in one place and at least two plots and four murders will occur.  Always a good thing.

This works. No permanent, rank based boosts though because of the clan dump scenario. It would just be so weird, you leave a clan that gave you a scan bonus and suddenly you're blind as a bat?? Why??

Okay, I'll shut up, but please, whatever you all come up with, don't kill my role play with immersion breaking stuff like that.

I agree with Triste to be honest. Flat boosts to skills or stats is meh. Honestly a bit leery about items too, though, mostly because of thr already mentioned possibility of a raider decked out to the gills in them.

Skill perks should be persistent, but they don't come from joining a clan.  They should come from a certain rank.  If you put X hours into a clan, get promoted to a level that perks start getting given, then decide to leave after...you should be keeping the buff.

Solves the clan-dump situation.  Also solves the rotating clans thing...sure, you CAN do that, but after the second clan, if you come to my clan and go "You know what, I want to join", and I know you've been in Kadius and Tor Scorpions, I'm going to ICly be thinking "...dude, are you SPYING?!".  Because that makes logical sense, while getting 2nd rank in two clans and continually leaving after makes less sense!

You could also game theory the buffs.  So you get +0.5 for rank 2, +2 for rank 3, and +5 for lifesworn (or whatever system you're using), keep the grass greener on the same side - represent your clan investing in your training to try to keep you to stay (and get you lifesworn).

Items can already be clan-only and get buffs.  You just need to mastercraft them.  But I don't like the idea of items giving you a buff (stats maybe - comfortable running shoes, lifting belts, marathon anti-chafing underoos, and...no idea for wisdom...tinfoil hats?  But not skills), since losing them when you leave the clan is the same as losing access to clanned crafts...what?  You suddenly forgot how to kick and see good?

But MORE importantly...stolen!  It'll be like krathi rings, or getting ganked for newbie coins.  People will 100% kill you, with IC reasons, to nick your fancy Kurac-only running shoes (or whatever...).  And then a) someone without 'training' will have that buff (and a criminal, so none of their friends will care that they are wearing branded gear, they'll actually think it is cooler!  And b) you, who had the training, now doesn't have it.

Sure, MCB and all, but that is still ripe for stupidity compared to clan-membership-buffs.

Indy and new-clans, as I said, custom craft your own gear, ask for a buff if appropriate.

While I like the idea in general, specifically for smoothing out the board for things like the Tor Scorpions (I've played one...and being an 'elite fighter' when the Byn are the ones who are because they spar a bunch...is immersion -breaking-!), I would suggest it isn't huge.  A little tweak to give certain clans an edge and make things more realistic for how the RP/gameworld says it should be, but not so noticable that it is worth 3 RL months being in a clan you're not interested in to get?

Quote from: Kyviantre on November 05, 2020, 01:19:29 PM
But MORE importantly...stolen!  It'll be like krathi rings, or getting ganked for newbie coins.  People will 100% kill you, with IC reasons, to nick your fancy Kurac-only running shoes (or whatever...).  And then a) someone without 'training' will have that buff (and a criminal, so none of their friends will care that they are wearing branded gear, they'll actually think it is cooler!  And b) you, who had the training, now doesn't have it.

Sure, MCB and all, but that is still ripe for stupidity compared to clan-membership-buffs.

It has been a long time since I played in Kurac. But I recall ... killing a few people who were seen wearing Kuraci only boots and refusing a polite request to return their clan only gear.

Quote from: SmashedTregil on November 06, 2020, 11:09:22 PM

Quote from: Kyviantre on November 05, 2020, 01:19:29 PM
But MORE importantly...stolen!  It'll be like krathi rings, or getting ganked for newbie coins.  People will 100% kill you, with IC reasons, to nick your fancy Kurac-only running shoes (or whatever...).  And then a) someone without 'training' will have that buff (and a criminal, so none of their friends will care that they are wearing branded gear, they'll actually think it is cooler!  And b) you, who had the training, now doesn't have it.

Sure, MCB and all, but that is still ripe for stupidity compared to clan-membership-buffs.

It has been a long time since I played in Kurac. But I recall ... killing a few people who were seen wearing Kuraci only boots and refusing a polite request to return their clan only gear.

This sums up my confusion over this. If some raiding clan has your +2 boots of mobility because they raided and killed someone who was of high-enough rank to earn and wear them... good for them? Now your clan has a reason to team up with others to whittle down and/or steal from the raiders to get your shit back.

Why is "oh no people might kill me for my items" a problem? Is a PC clan so scary that you cannot possibly work with the 13 other clans to fight back?

I can be totally mistaken, and I mean this in a totally non-offensive way.

I think there is a suitable portion of the population that really hates the idea that gear/valuables can lead to things happening in the game.  In other words, that people's desire for -items-, or the recovery of items, drives entire plotlines...that can be awkward for some people to get behind.  Unfortunately it's also an entire portion of whatever-the-fuck that player-archtype rating is.  The collector, the people who like getting cool, unique, or hard to get items.

I think that's that particular idea gets pushback more often than not, if I read between the lines (which is why I may be mistaken).  I have no problems with it, but prefer membership or rank-based because...I hate the idea that you have to put on a disguise?  You stop knowing how to do that thing.  It's a fairly transient bonus, that way, as opposed to the purpose to me, which is...your clan trains you in this, you get specialized in it.  That shouldn't change if you wear silks instead of your armor.

I'm with the Addict - I'd rather clan bonuses be matched to clan ranks, and be permanent. They're nothing game breaking about it. It's just role-enforcing. That's not to say gear shouldn't offer bonuses, or that some clans might have better gear, but ... being a member of a clan for a long time and doing some climbing could mean something great for us stat-bois.

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

It's my opinion that bonuses granted from objects, weapons, and gear should generally be very minimal. It's better for such bonuses to be linked to objects rather than clan. This allows others a chance to obtain them via a variety of options, both good and bad. It would be more logical for extended training and experience to grant a skill boost be done by staff instead of clan rank. Once you have the said knowledge, you should not oddly lose it if you leave the clan. However, leaving a clan that's invested heavily in your character may have consequences.

Quote from: triste on November 09, 2020, 04:55:09 PM
The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 05:30:25 PM

Quote from: triste on November 09, 2020, 04:55:09 PM
The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

Why not do this in a way that generates roleplay, like a room that enhances learning from training like another poster offered in this thread?

This all comes down to incentives, and I fear you might not be considering the full impact of these incentives. To continue with your Tor Scorpion example, if you place a mechanism like this in game, suddenly everyone would want to join the Tor Scorpions and not the Byn. Suddenly, we now have an imbalanced game world where everyone is trying to be a Green Beret and no one is serving in the Infantry, and how is that good for game realism or plots? Newsflash, it's not good for plots, because you are adding a roleplay-devoid meta-effect.

And anyone might retort, "Well, the Byn will get stat boosts, too!" Uh huh. I just pity whatever clan gets overlooked and has no stat boosts or a crappy one. Suddenly you'll have scenes like the one I posted where people defy their character concepts and destroy plots in order to protect their special stat boosts.

And, of course, this completely de-incentivizes mobilizing players and plots outside of a clan. Not only does it de-incentivize it, it stacks odds against these groups further.

We want people to make decisions based on plots and convincing roleplay, not max statz.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 05:30:25 PM

Quote from: triste on November 09, 2020, 04:55:09 PM
The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

I think this brings up an interesting point.

Wouldn't the best way to exemplify the training and rigor provided by a clan, be to give them access to coded ways to train and improve skills that no one else gets?

Honestly if you gave a noble's guard a small bonus to guard and parry for being clanned as a noble's guard, but then gave them no way to improve those skills it wouldn't mean bupkiss. The Bynner in the above example would still be hands down better than they'd ever become. Furthermore, giving clans special training options would be the most straightforward and immersive way of giving them the skills because... well that's what's actually happening, right?

Quote from: Narf on November 09, 2020, 05:54:23 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 05:30:25 PM

Quote from: triste on November 09, 2020, 04:55:09 PM
The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

I think this brings up an interesting point.

Wouldn't the best way to exemplify the training and rigor provided by a clan, be to give them access to coded ways to train and improve skills that no one else gets?

Honestly if you gave a noble's guard a small bonus to guard and parry for being clanned as a noble's guard, but then gave them no way to improve those skills it wouldn't mean bupkiss. The Bynner in the above example would still be hands down better than they'd ever become. Furthermore, giving clans special training options would be the most straightforward and immersive way of giving them the skills because... well that's what's actually happening, right?

This is basically the idea that Dar posted, which I also alluded to in my reply. It's a good idea. If I had to rank these ideas, it's [1] this idea, [2] items with skill bumps like Riev mentions, and [3] flat skill bumps.

Flat skill bumps offer nothing in terms of roleplay. Logically and definitively they hurt roleplay because it instills a meta-effect on characters that has no materialized or interactable form in game.

But a training area, gear, or some combination thereof is something that actually creates roleplay.

Training areas sound very...combaty, and like they are going to require two players.

But that is coming from me having been a Tor Scorp, and had a Warlord who wasn't a great match for timezones unfortunately, so nobody else to train against (good RP-based training when they were around though, I remember that fondly and it has been years!).

These high-tier fancy combat clans are unlikely to have multiple players in (certainly not enough for a guaranteed sync, and definitely definitely not enough for folks that are off-peak anyway), so that needs to be taken into account.

Assuming we're training stats...not sure how you'd train wisdom...

What if there were practice commands that checked your skills; "practice dual wield" would set you into a workout mode with a basic start and end emote that you can flesh out with emotes of your own. Different clans might have different caps to how high you can get with solo practice in varying skills. Tor might favor spear and shield, Borsail two handed and slashing, Byn might have a more even spread, etc.

They would work a lot like crafting skills, except they'd use the practice command rather than a craft command.

Sparring would always be preferable to solo practice due to various combat code factors, but that would still help with two issues in one go; low clan population not providing sparring partners, and the disparity in which mages can solo-train but combat characters cannot.

Quote from: Delirium on November 09, 2020, 08:51:29 PM
What if there were practice commands that checked your skills; "practice dual wield" would set you into a workout mode with a basic start and end emote that you can flesh out with emotes of your own. Different clans might have different caps to how high you can get with solo practice in varying skills. Tor might favor spear and shield, Borsail two handed and slashing, Byn might have a more even spread, etc.

They would work a lot like crafting skills, except they'd use the practice command rather than a craft command.

Sparring would always be preferable to solo practice due to various combat code factors, but that would still help with two issues in one go; low clan population not providing sparring partners, and the disparity in which mages can solo-train but combat characters cannot.

Loooooooove it.

QuoteWhy not do this in a way that generates roleplay, like a room that enhances learning from training like another poster offered in this thread?

Sometimes threads like this get brought up, and this is one of the standard responses, and it naturally confuses me because the condition of the thread being made is that the roleplay is already there, we're looking at things to reinforce it.  i.e. 'This house talks about being the premiere of this, but codewise, nothing reinforces that.'  Suggesting there needs to be more roleplay involved is kind of missing the point.

QuoteFlat skill bumps offer nothing in terms of roleplay. Logically and definitively they hurt roleplay because it instills a meta-effect on characters that has no materialized or interactable form in game.

Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles, you'd be hard-pressed to meta anything here.  It just becomes something that fits the role and accentuates the 'style' of the clan.  If anything, gear items is stranger...instilling the knowledge of a clan upon someone because they took a pair of spurs off of a body, or a cloak off a drunken scorpion.

I'm not certain I really see your concern here, or why it's even there unless you're totally overthinking it.

ETA:

QuoteI'm with the Addict

I think the reason we agree on this (It's 7DV in case people don't wanna scroll to see who said it) is we both played a lot of Tor Nobles, and that conundrum becomes very present given the constraints of the Scorpions.  It's something where the documentation/game world is simply not really given representation...which makes this odd spot where what we ended up doing was taking an intellectual approach and essentially teaching different uses of code that are rarely applicable given the types of engagements they are likely to find.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 11:23:15 PM

QuoteWhy not do this in a way that generates roleplay, like a room that enhances learning from training like another poster offered in this thread?

Sometimes threads like this get brought up, and this is one of the standard responses, and it naturally confuses me because the condition of the thread being made is that the roleplay is already there, we're looking at things to reinforce it.  i.e. 'This house talks about being the premiere of this, but codewise, nothing reinforces that.'  Suggesting there needs to be more roleplay involved is kind of missing the point.

QuoteFlat skill bumps offer nothing in terms of roleplay. Logically and definitively they hurt roleplay because it instills a meta-effect on characters that has no materialized or interactable form in game.

Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles, you'd be hard-pressed to meta anything here.  It just becomes something that fits the role and accentuates the 'style' of the clan.  If anything, gear items is stranger...instilling the knowledge of a clan upon someone because they took a pair of spurs off of a body, or a cloak off a drunken scorpion.

I'm not certain I really see your concern here, or why it's even there unless you're totally overthinking it.

ETA:

QuoteI'm with the Addict

I think the reason we agree on this (It's 7DV in case people don't wanna scroll to see who said it) is we both played a lot of Tor Nobles, and that conundrum becomes very present given the constraints of the Scorpions.  It's something where the documentation/game world is simply not really given representation...which makes this odd spot where what we ended up doing was taking an intellectual approach and essentially teaching different uses of code that are rarely applicable given the types of engagements they are likely to find.

Why didn't you address Delirium's proposal? It's a wonderful synthesis of both my concern -- AKA hating immersion breaking skill bumpz -- and your concern -- AKA plz give me lvl based skill bumpz -- but in a way anyone can tolerate because at least the skill bumpz are earned.

Why don't you also address Dar's proposal? It again is a good compromise between yours and mine.

People are offering compromises because unearned skill boosts aren't palatable. Refute their points, or compromise with them, or your points don't hold water my friend.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 11:23:15 PM
Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles...

I think this is an important point too, and really the concerns I've seen in this thread about what happens when someone leaves the clan that gave them the boost would almost never come up in the types of clans and roles we (Aruven, Armaddict, 7DV) are contemplating.  In most cases these would be roles that were role call/special app, or who advanced through ranks over IC years.  While it is an epic story arc sometimes for a character like that to leave the clan they spent their life training with, and go on to something else, it is and should be rare enough to not be a big hindrance to our brainstorming here.

I skimmed through that earlier thread I linked where some of the same people were discussing the same thing in 2015.  One of Armaddict's examples in that thread was a 'Retreat' ability for a Tor (or Tor trained) commander.  Maybe that would grant a 'flee' bonus to the other clanned PCs in the room once 'used' by the commander (tie in that new assess room code?).  Maybe a senior oashi mage would have a Meditative Chant they could recite to make the mana regen more quickly of the clanned mages around them, etc.

I can't address many of Triste's points because - and I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic - I'm just baffled by them.  I don't understand how some of these suggestions "actively hurt RP", or would drive people to quit, or the pejorative idea of adding "cool" flavor to make the three parts of the world more closely align (Documentation, Code support, People's RP).

If I can read a little into the OP's intent here it's less about giving skill bumps to PCs in elite fighting clans (which we can do with special apps and such), but more about giving them something unique to draw a distinction between massively skilled and 'elite'.  I remember when I played a Tor noble, he wanted to hire a liaison from the Sand Lord's forces to teach the Scorpions how to 'blind fight' as a unit in sandstorms, a la Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben.  This was an attempt to use an existing but underutilized code 'blind fighting' to manifest the eliteness of the Scorpions.  It never really went anywhere.

Quote from: slipshod on November 10, 2020, 12:05:35 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 11:23:15 PM
Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles...

I think this is an important point too, and really the concerns I've seen in this thread about what happens when someone leaves the clan that gave them the boost would almost never come up in the types of clans and roles we (Aruven, Armaddict, 7DV) are contemplating.  In most cases these would be roles that were role call/special app, or who advanced through ranks over IC years.  While it is an epic story arc sometimes for a character like that to leave the clan they spent their life training with, and go on to something else, it is and should be rare enough to not be a big hindrance to our brainstorming here.

I skimmed through that earlier thread I linked where some of the same people were discussing the same thing in 2015.  One of Armaddict's examples in that thread was a 'Retreat' ability for a Tor (or Tor trained) commander.  Maybe that would grant a 'flee' bonus to the other clanned PCs in the room once 'used' by the commander (tie in that new assess room code?).  Maybe a senior oashi mage would have a Meditative Chant they could recite to make the mana regen more quickly of the clanned mages around them, etc.

I can't address many of Triste's points because - and I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic - I'm just baffled by them.  I don't understand how some of these suggestions "actively hurt RP", or would drive people to quit, or the pejorative idea of adding "cool" flavor to make the three parts of the world more closely align (Documentation, Code support, People's RP).

If I can read a little into the OP's intent here it's less about giving skill bumps to PCs in elite fighting clans (which we can do with special apps and such), but more about giving them something unique to draw a distinction between massively skilled and 'elite'.  I remember when I played a Tor noble, he wanted to hire a liaison from the Sand Lord's forces to teach the Scorpions how to 'blind fight' as a unit in sandstorms, a la Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben.  This was an attempt to use an existing but underutilized code 'blind fighting' to manifest the eliteness of the Scorpions.  It never really went anywhere.

Every time I post my complaints, people who aren't baffled or obtuse, that is, people who understand my argument and are great roleplayers like Dar or Delirium follow up with a proposal that compromises my concern and this strange desire for MMORPG skills in a RPI.

People are offering compromises because they read my point, understand it, and need to argue things towards the direction I want a bit (that direction being one towards solid RP).

But since I am being insulted by people "honestly" finding my points "baffling" I'll give up for now, cheers to the people who agreed with me earlier in the thread (I won't need to quote the times you said you agreed with me to prove my point, but thanks).

Whoa, dude, relax.  We didn't just ignore proposals.  We just replied to the things that either ran wholely or partly contrary to our views to further address that point, or that we had insightful expansion to.  It's a chronological posting, sometimes things further back are what catch our eye rather than the most recent thing that we're either okay with or neutral on.  You've already spoken with me in PM before, you know that I'm not trying to shut you up, so just...remember that, when we disagree on things.

Quote from: Narf on November 09, 2020, 05:54:23 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 09, 2020, 05:30:25 PM

Quote from: triste on November 09, 2020, 04:55:09 PM
The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

I think this brings up an interesting point.

Wouldn't the best way to exemplify the training and rigor provided by a clan, be to give them access to coded ways to train and improve skills that no one else gets?

Honestly if you gave a noble's guard a small bonus to guard and parry for being clanned as a noble's guard, but then gave them no way to improve those skills it wouldn't mean bupkiss. The Bynner in the above example would still be hands down better than they'd ever become. Furthermore, giving clans special training options would be the most straightforward and immersive way of giving them the skills because... well that's what's actually happening, right?

It is indeed valid, but I think it also kind of fixes itself.  Realize that I speak largely in terms of Tor because of the problem that I mentioned before...elite military that has less training options due to an understandably smaller base that overall, focuses less on sparring than other combat heavy clans.  Unlike those other combat heavy clans, it is usually a long term role rather than one that can easily be cut short.

Providing alternative means of training is also an idea.  But that really just attempts to put it in the same place.  What my assumption is, the thing I'm implying, is that if there were varying bonuses for clans that exemplified their in game reputations/roles, it would naturally draw on the pool of people who fit there.  For Tor, higher maxes means you'd draw in more people who are looking to invest in the long term to hit above and beyond where others go in exchange for their loyalty.  The Academy, the place that charges exorbitant amounts of coin to train someone, would have a leg to stand on as far as why they charge so much; they really do make the elite product, not the same thing as a Bynner.

Some clans might give an immediate boost (Pure Theory, not a deadset proposal: The Guild gives stealth bonuses immediately, due to being more established in the dregs), some might have specialized gear access (Merchant houses in particular), some might mess with maxxes on certain types of skills (Tor, Lyksae, etc), some might do this or that.  It's a lot less about finding something that can be manipulated, and a lot more on making most members of a group actual or potential representation of that group in the game world.

Okay.

I swear on a [redacted] this is my final protest of your idea.

My favorite clans in game, the Soh, the Dust Runners, the Crimson Wind, were player made.

You are killing the chances of player made clans like that ever existing again. Why on earth are you advocating for that. You told me in a message, Armaddict, that the only people your idea hurts are independents. Fine, let's go with that: why hurt independents?

Brokkr also implied it's fine to hurt independent players when he asked if I was asking for fairness. I am not asking for fairness, but I am gravely concerned we will no longer see great clans like the Soh spontaneously form if we add something like this.

People keep telling me to be quiet, I'll let others speak up. But please don't kill inspiring gameplay elements -- like allowing players to form clans and tribes that have a fighting chance.

Shows how much [redacteds] are worth to me, last post for real.

Here's my effort to compromise with your idea: It's only alright if you provide clear documentation for how player-made clans and tribes can access this feature. And, player-made family role-calls, player made clans, etc can qualify automatically if they have up to six unclanned players involved or something like that. You need clear, achievable rules and need to not screw over independents and player-made clans, one of the best things about this game.

Ideally you all also heed Delirium and Dar's feedback on how to implement your idea, to avoid stupid roleplay like "I got a promotion to Sergeant, now I feel StRoNgEr and am wearing all Silt Horror plate."

If you believe that the primary reason players play ArmageddonMUD, and the primary draw for roleplaying characters is to become the most powerful skillful character in the game...
   I think you're forgetting about the other player types in Bartle's taxonomy of player types.  People play for many different reasons, and it's not always the KILLER archtype.

No.  If Tor gets a standard clam weapon that gives + to offense, it won't immediately stop players from creating a new clam for themselves.

Quote from: mansa on November 10, 2020, 01:30:10 AM
If you believe that the primary reason players play ArmageddonMUD, and the primary draw for roleplaying characters is to become the most powerful skillful character in the game...
   I think you're forgetting about the other player types in Bartle's taxonomy of player types.  People play for many different reasons, and it's not always the KILLER archtype.

No.  If Tor gets a standard clam weapon that gives + to offense, it won't immediately stop players from creating a new clam for themselves.

What are the guidelines for a player-made clan becoming an official clan, anyway? Just searched docs and the request tool, no category or docs exist for this.

If you are going to formalize the definition of a clan (or in mansa speech, clam) with +2 to ____, then you need to formalize the guidelines for independents / player made clans existing and applying for these sweet bonuses. Otherwise the implication is that player formed groups can just get bent, and harming that part of the game would be disastrous.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 01:35:14 AM
What are the guidelines for a player-made clan becoming an official clan, anyway? Just searched docs and the request tool, no category or docs exist for this.
....

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Stage%205

There's a couple things I'd like to point out in the document:

"Must have the backing/sponsorship of at least one major group in- game."
"Must be approved through local legislative body (the Allanaki Senate or the Tuluki Triumvirate). Your sponsor will bring this up on your behalf."

"You should already be communicating with your clam staff on a regular basis, so you and they will likely both be aware once you are at the IC level to even start mentioning the prospect of pursuing a Minor Merchant House establishment. Talk to your clam staff and seek their approval. Note that your communication with staff/history as a player/history with this PC are all taken into account for that approval. If there is some area that staff feel is not good enough for you to proceed with this, you will be given advice at this point on how to improve as well as a time ultimatum for that improvement. (This should be specific and measurable.)

Assuming staff gives approval, you now will need to find a sponsoring group in-game. This should be a group with sway in the local legislative body. In order to have them sponsor your bid to become a minor merchant house, you should expect a quid pro quo arrangement. In exchange for their support, you may lose some autonomy, profits, or the like...whether temporarily or for a lengthy period of time. This is where IC conflict may also come into play. Have you developed enemies over the years? Who are their friends? Are they connected? Do you have enough support (or at least enough indifference) to get your bid through the Senate or the Triumvirate?"

"You can now work with staff to set up documentation for your clam. Your clam's documentation will be a collaborative process with staff, but ultimately subject to staff approval, as it has to meet standards for the gameworld. You can also set up secret documentation just for clam leaders or successors."

I've highlighted a bunch of points.   #1 is communicating with the staff.


Again - there are some clams that exist in the game that have the ability to almost instant kill any player.  The existence of these coded perks do not make all the players immediately want to make characters that only join that clam.  The game is not equal or fair with the current clams.

How about documentation for tribes, etc, seems to be missing. And how about documentation for these bonuses? Do we want new players to come in and see "House Tor gets +2 to strength," try to join Tor and fail because it's elite, and repeatedly run into this roleplay wall (and probably quit playing Armageddon) because we decided to add clumsy bonuses that augment gameplay?

Another new counterpoint: what if you want to join some clan that gives a strength bonus, but play a concept that fits the clan fine RP-wise but doesn't fit the clan's stat boost at all? Example, it's largely a military clan, but they also need some scouts, and you're playing a scout who isn't particularly strong but still useful to the unit. Why do we need a tacky, videogamey stat boost applied to all characters? Dar and Delirium's idea is at least opt in, and again, roleplay generating and rooted in roleplaying. You can play a scout who wouldn't be strong and still fit the clan. You'll have balanced, healthy clans. All role assorting should be driven by roleplay in an RPI, not invisible gameplay bonuses.

I've got to be honest here; it's confusing how a clan member getting a permanent bonus for half a R/L year of playing a role could, in any way, keep someone from doing whatever they want to do, be that creating an indie clan or joining another established clan. When you play Armageddon, you've already commited to RP first, and not even the most stat-focused player that survives this game for years and years can really be called a hack-n-slasher. They've come to roleplay, even if only on a basic level. Even if you roleplay just to gain stats, you're still roleplaying here. Otherwise, you're off to another game that bothers to reward your stat grind.

I can not contemplate a player who would change their concept solely so that they could gain access to a Tor Scorpion boost to skills after months and months of playing. Unless they wanted to play a Tor Scorpion. I can't imagine how the months-long struggle to gain rank in the clan in order to get a stat boost would be preferable to just going out and kick-boxing spiders if they really want the stats.

I don't think physical stats are something I'm interested in boosting via clan stat-boosts. It's skills, and access to skills.

For instance, a Kuraci Outrider might be able to track at first rank, scan at second rank, blind fight at 3rd. You'd either add the skill to them if they don't already have it, with a lower cap, or give a boost to either the cap or the existing level if they do already have it. It doesn't matter what concept you play - all Outriders would be taught these things, as part of being an Outrider. And since being an Outrider rather than a Regular would involve at least months of play, I can't see how it would hurt anything at all. They've already dedicated a long portion of their lives to playing this character, with this clan. But you do know that when you get an Outrider on the trail, you've really got the best of the best.

A Tor Scorpion White might take a couple of RL months to attain the Red rank, but when they do, they get access to or a boost to guarding, meaning that when you've got Scorpions with you, you are sooper safe. And if you've got a Silver, a player with maybe a whole year's worth of playtime under their belt, with access to or a boost to shield, you've got a Bulwark on your side, and you can rove the gith-arrow infested plains with Falish abandon. Nothing happens to the game world aside from Tor being sought to protect the Highborn, at an elite level.

Yeah, I think the concept that it can hurt the world is silly. To attain these skill boosts, you've already roleplayed endless training regarding the skill, and you've spent a lot of time IC doing so.

I don't think indie clans need stat boosts. Indie clans occupy a completely different stratosphere of life. Their freedom to pursue their desires is unmatched by any solidified clan. An indie clan is freedom, and a solidified clan is structure and security.

And finally, I don't think we need these things. I do think we desire these things. I do think they fill holes in the process that allow "elite" groups to not be capable of being "elite".

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 01:58:36 AM
How about documentation for tribes, etc, seems to be missing. And how about documentation for these bonuses? Do we want new players to come in and see "House Tor gets +2 to strength," try to join Tor and fail because it's elite, and repeatedly run into this roleplay wall (and probably quit playing Armageddon) because we decided to add clumsy bonuses that augment gameplay?

Who in the world, who is interested in roleplaying, is really going to stop playing because they can't join an elite organization? Maybe I'm not being empathetic or something, but this would never cross my mind, ever.

Quote from: Delirium on November 09, 2020, 08:51:29 PM
What if there were practice commands that checked your skills; "practice dual wield" would set you into a workout mode with a basic start and end emote that you can flesh out with emotes of your own. Different clans might have different caps to how high you can get with solo practice in varying skills. Tor might favor spear and shield, Borsail two handed and slashing, Byn might have a more even spread, etc.

They would work a lot like crafting skills, except they'd use the practice command rather than a craft command.

Sparring would always be preferable to solo practice due to various combat code factors, but that would still help with two issues in one go; low clan population not providing sparring partners, and the disparity in which mages can solo-train but combat characters cannot.

Yeah, I think this would be an exceptional thing. I'm not even so sure I'd make it less productive than sparring. I could see a trainer strolling through ranks of soldiers, while they "practice". I think I'd mix customized practice with raised caps. For instance, maybe Tor Reds have raised guard caps, and Silvers have raised shield caps, but no immediate boost. Instead, they are able to attain these raised caps through either common sparring, or their practices.

This is a clever idea. Now I have to go find Dar's idea and reread it.

Quote from: Dar on November 05, 2020, 12:58:41 AM
I'd be thrilled if training areas in clans would give boosts to learning and performance.

So crafting areas give crafting bonus to success (Might already be happening due to stationary objects)

Sparring areas give learning bonuses to people sparring in them.

I wouldnt mind having training sessions that give temporary skills.

Like for example, spending time in Byn training area, would set a flag on you that gave you subdue/bash/guard skill bonus of +10. It would be an affect that would eventually wear off with an echo of something like, "Your memories of T'zai Byn training begin to dim."   That bonus shouldnt be grandiose, but having that skill even on low levels and not having it at all is a big difference. At the same time, it'll be more then just having rank in a clan, but you'd actually need to spend time in certain locations to achieve it.

Perhaps if you do guard duty at the gates/barracks, while being AoD would give you a short lived +10 scan bonus.


Make it frequent and intricate enough, different bonuses for different clans, in different situations. Would it make it a little more gamey? +1 to whatever? Maybe. But it will also encourage clannies to spend time together in the same locale. Gather enough PCs in one place and at least two plots and four murders will occur.  Always a good thing.

I don't hate this one. I think I'd maybe steal the forgetting portion of this, and apply it to the max cap portion of my own idea. I also like the idea of training in a clan sparring area giving bonuses to learning according to the clan's precepts. So maybe sparring in the Tor Academy allows you to learn the piercing skill better than anywhere in the game, so that, ex: instead of missing 50 times, you only need to miss 35 times.

Mixing this and Delirium's idea makes me pretty content.

A burglar-class (I know it doesn't exist anymore but whatever) Tor White has no boost to any skills, but of course they've maybe learned spear-work better in the time they've been working. They become a Red. They gain access to the guard skill and rescue skill(which they didn't have previously), and it's cap is warrior+. They still have to learn it. They spend some time working, and 1/2 year later, they become a Silver. They already have the shield skill, but now it's cap is warrior+. They still have to raise it, but this burglar now epitomizes Tor training. They have been taught the Tor Precepts (I haven't thought out these skills or anything else, but this is just an example.)

A Templar decides to hunt this Tor Silver, and for whatever reason, it's time to flee. They are no longer a Scorpion, and for each RL day, they lose a point from their cap for these learned skills, until they return to their pre-Tor days, since they are no longer participating in Tor training.

Now, does this invalidate the Byn, for instance, escorting a noble to x location?

Hell no. There's one Scorpion. Maybe there's two Scorpions. There's ten Byn. There's thousands of gith. It doesn't hurt the world in anyway, shape or form. The Scorpions might cost as much as the Byn does, but you have the best personal protection in the southern realm. You still need bodies, which the Scorpions can't support - enter the Byn.

Note that all of this is just rambling thoughts, but surely it's understandable how clan bonuses/access to skills can actually enhance the game, rather than detract from it.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 12:46:20 AM
For Tor, higher maxes means you'd draw in more people who are looking to invest in the long term to hit above and beyond where others go in exchange for their loyalty.  The Academy, the place that charges exorbitant amounts of coin to train someone, would have a leg to stand on as far as why they charge so much; they really do make the elite product, not the same thing as a Bynner.

Some clans might give an immediate boost (Pure Theory, not a deadset proposal: The Guild gives stealth bonuses immediately, due to being more established in the dregs), some might have specialized gear access (Merchant houses in particular), some might mess with maxxes on certain types of skills (Tor, Lyksae, etc), some might do this or that.  It's a lot less about finding something that can be manipulated, and a lot more on making most members of a group actual or potential representation of that group in the game world.

Well said, in particular, the various ways that bonuses would be achieved.

I'd also add that I think membership in "special" clans should have capped numbers. If I were bringing back Tor, for instance, there'd be 1 noble, and 5 Scorpions (and only 3 of the Red/Silver variety (I've always advocated having a White trainee rank)). There's also no Aides in this equation, since I always thought that Scorpions had the unique training to be both Aide and Soldier. I would do things like this to make sure that membership is vaunted, and to not dilute the playerbase too much.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 09:33:05 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 12:46:20 AM
For Tor, higher maxes means you'd draw in more people who are looking to invest in the long term to hit above and beyond where others go in exchange for their loyalty.  The Academy, the place that charges exorbitant amounts of coin to train someone, would have a leg to stand on as far as why they charge so much; they really do make the elite product, not the same thing as a Bynner.

Some clans might give an immediate boost (Pure Theory, not a deadset proposal: The Guild gives stealth bonuses immediately, due to being more established in the dregs), some might have specialized gear access (Merchant houses in particular), some might mess with maxxes on certain types of skills (Tor, Lyksae, etc), some might do this or that.  It's a lot less about finding something that can be manipulated, and a lot more on making most members of a group actual or potential representation of that group in the game world.

Well said, in particular, the various ways that bonuses would be achieved.

I'd also add that I think membership in "special" clans should have capped numbers. If I were bringing back Tor, for instance, there'd be 1 noble, and 5 Scorpions (and only 3 of the Red/Silver variety (I've always advocated having a White trainee rank)). I would do things like this to make sure that membership is vaunted, and to not dilute the playerbase too much.

The cap would be strictly necessary given how the bonuses corrupt every other incentive for joining clans. And so rules upon rules will cascade from this change you want. RP and role mobility crushed in the name of meta stat boosts. Lovely.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
The cap would be strictly necessary given how the bonuses corrupt every other incentive for joining clans.

Caps in some clans should absolutely be a thing, stats or no. And how do bonuses corrupt any incentive? For instance, why would being a Scorpion corrupt an incentive?

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
And so rules upon rules will cascade from this change you want.

Coded rules? Or IC rules? I don't really understand this one.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
RP and role mobility crushed in the name of meta stat boosts. Lovely.

You would have to be in the clan for a decent amount of time to attain any of these perks. How is RP crushed? And role mobility? I'm not sure what you mean by that one. If you mean flitting from clan to clan, I don't know why that would change.

Quote from: Riev on November 09, 2020, 03:25:34 PM
This sums up my confusion over this. If some raiding clan has your +2 boots of mobility because they raided and killed someone who was of high-enough rank to earn and wear them... good for them? Now your clan has a reason to team up with others to whittle down and/or steal from the raiders to get your shit back.

Why is "oh no people might kill me for my items" a problem? Is a PC clan so scary that you cannot possibly work with the 13 other clans to fight back?

I think all of this is just fine - but I prefer clan-based bonuses in terms of reflecting actual training. Having cool clan-only items just adds to the pie. There's room for both.

I remember Wyverns being killed for their wrist-razors. Those killers were, indeed, hunted down when possible.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 09:43:29 AM

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
The cap would be strictly necessary given how the bonuses corrupt every other incentive for joining clans.

Caps in some clans should absolutely be a thing, stats or no. And how do bonuses corrupt any incentive? For instance, why would being a Scorpion corrupt an incentive?

Stat boosts corrupt incentives by being a new incentive totally unrelated to good roleplay. Example, newbie Joe rolls a warrior and picks strength last as he had a quick warrior concept. He now realizes he needs better strength to be a better warrior after OOCing with some lovely stat-obsessed people, so now he seeks to join whatever clan gives him a stat boost. He finds out the clan giving that stat boost is Tor, tries to join on his first character, fails for obvious reasons, and gets sad and quits Armageddon.

Now, in a less stat-obsessed world without sweet boostz to ur statz, Joe would have been guided to the Byn or maybe a cool independent hunter who would have taught him everything he needed to know. He'd still be playing Armageddon today because he saw, clearly, that this is a game that cares about roleplay, not statz. Happy ending!

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 09:43:29 AM

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
And so rules upon rules will cascade from this change you want.

Coded rules? Or IC rules? I don't really understand this one.

Literally what you just posted my friend~~~

"I want a stat boost, but we'd have to also add caps, and all these other rules." Just a heads up to staff, 7DV is right! And you're going to have a headache finagling with this code and these boosts for years. Timmy is gonna be sad Clan A boosts stat X and get you to change the clan to boosting stat Y, only to have Sally, Lenny and Timmy [yes, Timmy again] complain about boosting stat Y because they want to boost stat Z. If anything I've been arguing hard in this thread for Staff benefit because I can see a logistical nightmare like this from a mile away.

To make it exceedingly clear, the boosts as defined are themselves rules--a coded rule or switch or case statement or lookup embedded in your code--and by definition adds more restrictions on the character you can play. Of course, duh. Code* that encodes* codified* rules* are in effect... more rules and restrictions! My goodness. Duh, of course. And in order to make sure these boosts aren't abused, you need more rules like clan-caps. Oh, wow, you said it yourself, so why did you ask me?

But, again, the main reason I am arguing against this is because it kills good roleplay.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 09:43:29 AM

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 09:37:14 AM
RP and role mobility crushed in the name of meta stat boosts. Lovely.

You would have to be in the clan for a decent amount of time to attain any of these perks. How is RP crushed? And role mobility? I'm not sure what you mean by that one. If you mean flitting from clan to clan, I don't know why that would change.

It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a stat boosts, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!



* Are you telling me the word "code" is a synonym for "rule?!?!?!" Wow, logic is beautiful!

I just don't agree that these ideas will lead people to quit or will wreck the game for people or will make player created or independent clans unappealing and discourage people from joining and crap all over said clans - at least not for any significant number of people.  I don't think there needs to be any kind of parity between clans or types of clans.  One clan can excel at something that is consummate with the unique culture of that clan.

Quote from: slipshod on November 10, 2020, 10:22:10 AM
I just don't agree that these ideas will lead people to quit or will wreck the game for people or will make player created or independent clans unappealing and discourage people from joining and crap all over said clans - at least not for any significant number of people.  I don't think there needs to be any kind of parity between clans or types of clans.  One clan can excel at something that is consummate with the unique culture of that clan.

Ah, "at least not for any significant number of people." In case you haven't been typing who in game recently, we don't have a significant number of players. I really don't know why we have to compromise the character of our game in this way; we shouldn't.

Thanks for not disparaging me in your reply this time <3

You have some real concerns, and they're rife with intelligent thought. But you also have a "holier than thou" method of offering these thoughts. I wish you'd be a little more chill. Still, let's address these concerns.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 10:01:46 AM
Stat boosts corrupt incentives by being a new incentive totally unrelated to good roleplay. Example, newbie Joe rolls a warrior and picks strength last as he had a quick warrior concept. He now realizes he needs better strength to be a better warrior after OOCing with some lovely stat-obsessed people, so now he seeks to join whatever clan gives him a stat boost. He finds out the clan giving that stat boost is Tor, tries to join on his first character, fails for obvious reasons, and gets sad and quits Armageddon.

Now, in a less stat-obsessed world without sweet boostz to ur statz, Joe would have been guided to the Byn or maybe a cool independent hunter who would have taught him everything he needed to know. He'd still be playing Armageddon today because he saw, clearly, that this is a game that cares about roleplay, not statz. Happy ending!

See, I don't see this as an occurance which would happen enough to matter. I personally think that if Joe is a good player, or cares about roleplay, those stats won't matter enough. And I think that if he does care about strength that much, he'll go suicide anyway, clan boosts or no. I also think that the Byn is still the choice he'd have to make because they are far more active, made for entry-level people. That hunter is still going to take him places to fight things and discover things Tor will never show him, along with the freedom he'd never have in Tor.

If you're disappointed that Joe cared more about stats than roleplaying and so he quit the game, we're not on the same page, because I couldn't care less.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 10:01:46 AM
Literally what you just posted my friend~~~

"I want a stat boost, but we'd have to also add caps, and all these other rules." Just a heads up to staff, 7DV is right! And you're going to have a headache finagling with this code and these boosts for years. Timmy is gonna be sad Clan A boosts stat X and get you to change the clan to boosting stat Y, only to have Sally, Lenny and Timmy [yes, Timmy again] complain about boosting stat Y because they want to boost stat Z. If anything I've been arguing hard in this thread for Staff benefit because I can see a logistical nightmare like this from a mile away.

To make it exceedingly clear, the boosts as defined are themselves rules--a coded rule or switch or case statement or lookup embedded in your code--and by definition adds more restrictions on the character you can play. Of course, duh. Codes that encode codified rules are in effect... more rules and restrictions! Duh, of course. And in order to make sure these boosts aren't abused, you need more rules like clan-caps. Oh, wow, you said it yourself, so why did you ask me?

But, again, the main reason I am arguing against this is because it kills good roleplay.

Oh, yeah, code will always be a sticking point in these things. That's never going to change, and I highly doubt any of us advocates think it will ever go in. But we argue out the flaws in order to fix them, so that in case staff ever gets into it, they have a pretty decent idea base to pull from. The roleplay ... we'll look at that below.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 10:01:46 AM
It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a staff boost, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!

So, here we've got a decent example of killing good roleplay. You're just missing one thing. Every single clan in this game is specialized. Bonuses to skills would be tailored to that House. All they do is enhance playing in that House. Nobody who wanted to make awesome clothing is going to join Kurac because of their crafting bonus, because Kurac doesn't sell clothing. Nobody who wants to make weapons or armor is going to join Kadius - they don't sell that stuff. Nobody who wants to see every invisible thing in the sand is going to join Tor, and nobody who wants to be the best bodyguard in the world is going to join Kurac. You're engaging in a lot of conjecture that really doesn't have an basis in the idea's concept - to enhance a clan's identity.

I'm also pretty sure that by the time staff would decide to do such a thing, they would have already listened to the arguments of the best roleplayers, who surely can't be anybody offering up this concept of clan-enhancing skill boosts. Be cool. We're just discussing an idea. An idea - that's all it is.

Well, for what my two sids are worth: No. I want nothing to do with seeing 'stat bonus' to clans.

This is an RPI.

Your creativity and ability to tell a story will elevate you.

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 10:01:46 AM
It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a staff boost, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!

So, here we've got a decent example of killing good roleplay. You're just missing one thing. Every single clan in this game is specialized. Bonuses to skills would be tailored to that House. All they do is enhance playing in that House. Nobody who wanted to make awesome clothing is going to join Kurac because of their crafting bonus, because Kurac doesn't sell clothing. Nobody who wants to make weapons or armor is going to join Kadius - they don't sell that stuff. Nobody who wants to see every invisible thing in the sand is going to join Tor, and nobody who wants to be the best bodyguard in the world is going to join Kurac. You're engaging in a lot of conjecture that really doesn't have an basis in the idea's concept - to enhance a clan's identity.

Why use a blunt force instrument to enhance the identity of a clan when we already have a ton of documentation and mechanisms for that which wouldn't be as cartoonish as a stat boost? I'll use rugby as an example; rugby is a sport with well balanced role needs. You need strong stocky people, you need tall people, you need short people, you need strong people, you need fast people etc. Let's say someone invents a technology to suddenly give rugby players stat boosts flatly across the team. One team gets a strength stat boost, but the stat boost gods also add -1 to agility for realism because people become musclebound when people get that muscly. Suddenly their eight man and hookers become too musclebound to do their jobs running around quickly and their team starts losing. The people who were specialized to be fast quit, and you now have a team that lacks dynamism or the ability to even win. This is exactly what will happen to Houses in game: Houses will lack dynamism and diverse roles, and some Houses will start losing and dying off.

Teams and systems benefit from specialization. The ability to specialize and assign roles is what allowed humanity to leave the caves. I would like to be able to play nuanced, specialized roles. I don't want to have immersion killed in my game by encountering weird Houses that suddenly makes everyone as buff as neanderthals, or suddenly makes everyone eggheaded intellectuals in a cartoonish way for no good roleplay reason.

Quote from: Shabago on November 10, 2020, 10:32:49 AM
Well, for what my two sids are worth: No. I want nothing to do with seeing 'stat bonus' to clans.

This is an RPI.

Your creativity and ability to tell a story will elevate you.

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

And this is why I love debates on the forum, thanks for your feedback!

Quote from: Shabago on November 10, 2020, 10:32:49 AM
Well, for what my two sids are worth: No. I want nothing to do with seeing 'stat bonus' to clans.

This is an RPI.

Your creativity and ability to tell a story will elevate you.

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

Your two cents are worth four, at least, but I don't think clan-based stats encourage that sort of behavior in any way. Since they are specific to the clan, whoever has them has been part of the clan for a long period of time, and has put in enough work to not want to see it go away. Since it's not code-abuse twinking, or solo play, that gets you access to the ranks required to gain the skill boosts, I don't see how it ever encourages such behavior.

Yes, creativity and ability to tell a story carries you, but a gith arrow doesn't care about that, so if Tor training is about gith arrows, now we have to look to the code. It's nice to have that Tor training attached to your shield skill in order to back up all of that creativity and story that got me to this moment in time.

It is an RPI, and that's why I play it. But if I only wanted to roleplay, a mush would be even better. Armageddon is a nice blend of code/enforced roleplay. And this idea is only about code in order to enhance a clan's identity.

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 10:38:18 AM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 10:01:46 AM
It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a staff boost, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!

So, here we've got a decent example of killing good roleplay. You're just missing one thing. Every single clan in this game is specialized. Bonuses to skills would be tailored to that House. All they do is enhance playing in that House. Nobody who wanted to make awesome clothing is going to join Kurac because of their crafting bonus, because Kurac doesn't sell clothing. Nobody who wants to make weapons or armor is going to join Kadius - they don't sell that stuff. Nobody who wants to see every invisible thing in the sand is going to join Tor, and nobody who wants to be the best bodyguard in the world is going to join Kurac. You're engaging in a lot of conjecture that really doesn't have an basis in the idea's concept - to enhance a clan's identity.

Why use a blunt force instrument to enhance the identity of a clan when we already have a ton of documentation and mechanisms for that which wouldn't be as cartoonish as a stat boost? I'll use rugby as an example; rugby is a sport with well balanced role needs. You need strong stocky people, you need tall people, you need short people, you need strong people, you need fast people etc. Let's say someone invents a technology to suddenly give rugby players stat boosts flatly across the team. One team gets a strength stat boost, but the stat boost gods also add -1 to agility for realism because people become musclebound when people get that muscly. Suddenly their eight man and hookers become too musclebound to do their jobs running around quickly and their team starts losing. The people who were specialized to be fast quit, and you now have a team that lacks dynamism or the ability to even win. This is exactly what will happen to Houses in game: Houses will lack dynamism and diverse roles, and some Houses will start losing and dying off.

Teams and systems benefit from specialization. The ability to specialize and assign roles is what allowed humanity to leave the caves. I would like to be able to play nuanced, specialized roles. I don't want to have immersion killed in my game by encountering weird Houses that suddenly makes everyone as buff as neanderthals, or suddenly makes everyone eggheaded intellectuals in a cartoonish way for no good roleplay reason.

That's a fair argument.

But how does having every tenured Tor Scorpion have a high Guard skill change anything about the person they are? They have access to a utility skill which allows them to be able to train to be better than other people at guarding. The Tor clan is supposed to specialize in guarding (actually, War Planning and protection of the Nine, but ...). Why would this thing which simply tells the code that yes, this Scorpion has indeed had the best training at guarding and so can do it better than others, limit the concept of a character in any way whatsoever? They are still the character they rolled up in Chargen. They have the same personality, stats, skills, and so on that they started with. They can and probably will fulfill any role they did before. The only difference is that they can become one of a very few paragons of protecting someone, which is something they had to roleplay training for in the first place. And if they didn't want to be a bodyguard, they wouldn't have joined Tor in the first place.

The difference between having a 90 in guarding, instead of an 80, isn't so gamebreaking as to be untenable. It just means I am the best, in a House that is about having the best. Like I mentioned before, I'd never welcome a stat boost in the attributes, only skill based bonuses. And if the skills are limited to the concept of the House, I just don't see how anything is changed in terms of conceiving a character, or deciding what clan to join.

-We aren't looking to add stat boosts to clans.
-We aren't looking to add new skills to your skill list for joining a clan.
-We aren't looking to give a higher skill cap than you can otherwise get for joining a clan.

-We aren't looking for people to make new clans like the Soh.  They are desert elves and PC made desert elf clans have been prohibited for a long time now.
-We aren't looking to make things equal between IC groups.  Yes, Tor nobles might be able to get some great stuff.  That they order from Salarr.  The best makers of armor and weapons in the Known.  Who spend a lot of time on those things, cause it is Tor.  Will your PC clan be able to replicate that?  Likely not.

-Just because you are discussing it, just means you have some ideas in your heads.  No use loosing them over stuff we aren't even contemplating.

One thing about these sorts of ideas is that if staff ever wants to get down with it, they have reference material to add to their own discussions staff-side. I think the majority of us aren't thinking we'll ever see this - but it's fun to dicker about.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2020, 10:51:57 AM
But how does having every tenured Tor Scorpion have a high Guard skill change anything about the person they are?

I bring you the story of Twinkamos (Twink for short) and Lieutenant Tired Veterana (Veteran for short):

Twink: Yes, I'm sure I want to join and become a Tor Scorpion in time.
Veteran: You cannot just join, what are your credentials?
Twink: Well, I fight well.
Veteran: You need more than that, come to think if it, are you even an Allanaki Citizen?
Twink: I am. How about I get to ask you a question. Is it true the Tor Scorpions are good at guarding?
Veteran: Uh... yes. We are one of the most elite group of warriors you'll be able to find in the known, indeed just last--
Twink: Awesome so you're good at guarding! What if I don't know how to guard already?
Veteran: Then I advise you join the Byn and talk to me in a few years.
Twink: Yeah I did that, I mean do you GET the GUARD SKILL because I don't have that.
Veteran: I--
Twink: I always wanted to play a miscreant but didn't but because they don't get guard, I didn't.
Veteran: Please stop--
Twink: But if your clan gives that boost I can so I am playing a miscreant the first time man I love this new change.
Veteran: I hate this new change.


No. No. Nonononono. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

This is why Shabago and I are saying no. Why even invite the possibility of scenes like that when we can easily avoid them.

Come on, hahaha.

You know that's fucking far fetched.

It's funny as hell, but that's not going to really happen. The amount of time some has to play a character is really the thing I think that gates it properly. Furthermore, as the interviewer, they would simply never get in.

You're good, Triste, I'll give you that.

You argue against the idea because of the potential for that scene.

I argue for the idea because of the potential for a Scorpion to not be lying when he makes that claim.

Quote from: Shabago on November 10, 2020, 10:32:49 AM
A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz.

Thanks for the inspiration for my next character. I'll be sure to add the cherry on top and kill them(my victims) without a single emote either.

Thank you for how you weighed in on all of this, staff. I think you're making the right call.

Thanks also to other peeps who weighed in of course!

Some people have the ability to fuck up any thread. Can we just lock this now?

I think a very important facet of this whole thing to mention, is that no one SEEMS to actually be advocating for actual stat increases. They seem to be advocating for skills, in fact. Which is far more reasonable in my eyes. Byn are guards, kinda. Give everyone in the clan access to apprentice guard and rescue to simulate the training they go through.

Why does it all have to be master level stuff?

If I wanted to put in a code relevant way for elite troops to train, I would introduce a sparring room in their clan that had an NPC that'll train with them. For simplicity sake it flees when it or the opponent goes under ~60% hp.

Take it a step further, and the NPC you're training with has skills based on your rank. If you're a Tor Scorpion level 3, you'll fight the level 3 NPC. This way the value of your sparring raises with rank, and it doesn't matter if you leave.
The clear advantage here is that you improve faster when training with a stronger opponent, so that's the clan's advantage.

For crafters, I'd have something similar. Instead of clan locked crafts, change them all into tool locked crafts, and make those tools only available in the respective clan compound.
Want to make those Salarr super boots? Well then you need access to a Salarr shell punch, there's one on their argosy, one in their compound, and I hear there's one in their old broken down argosy
that's got gith living in it.

By tying these bonuses to places, NPCs, or objects we remove the roleplay question of "Why did I suddenly forget how to make those boots I've been making for seven years?" and replace it with "How am I going to get access to a shell press for long enough to make more boots. Maybe I can seduce a Salarr aide and convince them to let me use the workbench?"

Personally, I have had many different kinds of characters in nearly all of the games clans at one point or another.  These character archetypes have had their own individual motivations, and have put forth wildly varying levels of effort with everything from purposefully slacking off to being incredibly gung-ho and motivated.

Considering that each individual character's motivations are going to differ within each clan, it doesn't really make sense that these characters all gain an equal bonus of any sort.  It doesn't make sense that my spy who only joined a House to find out the secret of X should get 15% basket weaving when that isn't why he is there. The same goes for my Bynner who is really just there to hide out from the law while giving minimum effort and avoiding sparring at all costs.

In my opinion, if you want your character to be a better guard after joining the Byn they should focus on practicing how to guard.

Skill boosts assume each character is putting forth an honest effort to be or become what the House or Clan focuses on, which just isn't true in all cases.

QuoteYou know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

One, this is pretty categorically either untrue or falsely presented, if only because you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay.  It's a trend that has shown up in various 'I'm leaving' posts, under the guise of disagreements with staff.  Essentially, they are roleplaying, and they are trying to do what a character would do, and they end up being told it's either wrong or impossible.  Take into account that broad, untrue accusations are routinely made in regards to roleplay and motivations (such as clearly seen in this very thread), and no wonder people leave: You've already painted a picture that the game is filled with people who just run around killing things, getting bored, and so they kill players instead...when in my experience it's often the reverse: I play an antagonist, get roped up in things, manage to survive, things die down, and I end up doing boring routine activities to keep myself entertained until the next plot arises.  The interesting part of that is that it often isn't 'I make things happen', it's waiting for routine character actions of others to line up as to present opportunity at the price of conflict.

Second, direct stat gains have been done before, not in conjunction with clan gains but with 'rp and logs'.  People wanted stat gains, it was pretty overdone, and yet the quality of the game didn't suddenly deteriorate into 'I only do RP that results in stat gains, sorry', which is a simple breakdown of that argument here.  People will continue to make the characters in the arenas that interest them.  People will continue to not play roles that seem boring.  The only differences are A) Independents in a certain arena might have a reason to clan up, if they're willing, and B) Certain clans naturally start to lean towards making use of what their reputation says they do really well.

Third, as noted, I don't think anyone was a proponent for actual statistic gains, only small bonuses of various types that fit each clan to make its identity easier to realize.

Quote-Just because you are discussing it, just means you have some ideas in your heads.  No use loosing them over stuff we aren't even contemplating.

Fourth, anyone who's spent any amount of time on the GDB knows that there are dozens of ideas that come around and we'll be lucky if even the overwhelmingly popular top 5% get implemented.  Yet, that urge to contribute ideas still remains.  It's healthy.  It's fun.  It involves deeper discussion about the gameworld that only improves roleplay, as long as it isn't reduced to 'I like roleplay, you disagree with me, therefore you must hate roleplay'.

Overall, I never expect change to come from the GDB.  It's a pretty welcome thing most of the time, when it actually happens.  Most of the GDB for me is players of various experiences and backgrounds and types arguing relentlessly about the game...which runs some people off, because they still view it as some sort of place for ideas to be approved and shot down.  For me, it's where I get gems of wisdom as far as how to see certain things, or random tidbits about the game that I just didn't know, and that I could theoretically build entire characters around, or inspiration to try out certain things.

Here, in this thread, the example was the prevalence of a gameworld that is fairly strictly written.  Elite units.  Groups who do this.  The view of progression from 'recruit' to an established member.  It's juxtaposed with a code-based medium that doesn't lend weight to those backgrounds, groups, etc, to the point that the characters interacting around those topics often can't even pretend that the gameworld reputation is true, they have to go with the 'coded reality'.  This discussion...seemed to be an attempt to shift the gameworld reality closer to coded reality.  That's it.

Added because DAN POSTED WHILE I DID *tsks*:

QuoteSkill boosts assume each character is putting forth an honest effort to be or become what the House or Clan focuses on, which just isn't true in all cases.

While some of what you say is accurate, that's actually going down the wrong path.  Your character has different motivations, and that's great.  You have different emphasis, and that's also great.  But that's not what the bonus does.  It acts as the force of the clan's emphasis, not your character's.  Which means that you may be a crappy guard in a guarding clan...and your emphasis is not on guarding, so you will remain a crappy guard.  But the clan still emphasizes guarding.  And to be true to the actual discussion, it's not that they just emphasize it, they are -known- for being the best at it.  Better than anyone else.  The bonus is not to instantly make you into that master.  But it does add the idea that the culture, the routine, the standards, of this clan will improve you in that area no matter what just by sheer exposure.

So yeah, you could remain a crappy guard in that clan if that motivation doesn't pull you in.  If you don't line up with their mission and they keep you.  But that doesn't free you from the workings of that clan being based around that thing.  You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Rereading the original post,  I think the idea was to have some sort of progression system within a clan structure that would give additional perks besides the current perks of progressing in clan rank:
* All clanned NPCs assists the higher ranking PC
* Additional coins on your monthly stipend
* Access to different areas of the clan bases.
* Access to a NPC follower
* Access to NPC goods distributers
* Access to Clan Items


Let's consider the T'zai Byn as an example:
When you're Rank 1 - Runner, you get access to:
#1 - Clan Base
#2 - NPC goods distributer (Cook)
#3 - Byn Clan Aba

When you're Rank 2 - Trooper, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items

When you're Rank 3 - Sergeant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items
#3 - Clan Flags (Recruiter, Leader, Banker, etc)

When you're rank 4 - Lieutenant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items


Are there additional perks that could be provided to those characters who progress in rank beyond the current coded perks?
Can players who reach rank 3 and 4 (and 5 and 6) of established clans get coded benefits which are unique to the fantasy/story aspect of those clans?

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay

Quick question, why are many of your posts arguing for rigidly defining roleplay then with simplistic notions like "People in House Tor are good at guarding. They get a bonus to guard." Seems like you are asking for staff to do something that you correctly state causes us to lose players. Yeah, let's not do that!

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Oh, I would have loved to tell this to my ex, a coder, who passed away at age 23 due to an inherited heart condition. If you just hung around people with high endurance like football players, my deceased love and coder friend, your heart would still be beating today.

No, Armaddict... it doesn't work that way. He's dead. No amount of endurance training could fix his malformed heart. How I wish your arguments were logically true, but they are not.

Realism can be heartbreaking, but I prefer realism because it leads to better roleplaying.

Skills Triste, reading the fucking post. If you hang around footballers you will learn to kick a ball.

Quote from: Hauwke on November 10, 2020, 06:52:05 PM
Skills Triste, reading the fucking post. If you hang around footballers you will learn to kick a ball.

You saying now that no one has been in favor of stat boosts, doesn't ah, change the facts. It's all over this thread.

Again, I am just so glad staff have weighed in, I only weighed in due to anxiety about roleplay breaking mechanisms being introduced and harming the game.

I would also like to caution against using the f-bomb when replying to people, which a few people have. I am not being uncivil in the same way. Cursing wildly like that makes one look like they are losing the argument, thereby making me look like I am winning the argument (which is not my intent, my intent, like staff's intent, is preserving quality roleplay in this game).

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 06:15:59 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay

Quick question, why are many of your posts arguing for rigidly defining roleplay then with simplistic notions like "People in House Tor are good at guarding. They get a bonus to guard." Seems like you are asking for staff to do something that you correctly state causes us to lose players. Yeah, let's not do that!

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Oh, I would have loved to tell this to my ex, a coder, who passed away at age 23 due to an inherited heart condition. If you just hung around people with high endurance like football players, my deceased love and coder friend, your heart would still be beating today.

No, Armaddict... it doesn't work that way. He's dead. No amount of endurance training could fix his malformed heart. How I wish your arguments were logically true, but they are not.

Realism can be heartbreaking, but I prefer realism because it leads to better roleplaying.

...I don't really even grasp where this comes from.  No.  I do not define roleplay, I argue against the narrowing of the definition of roleplay. I have been incredibly all-inclusive in regards to what kinds of players should be here for a long time.  It's literally a recurring theme that seems to have escaped you.  And while I use examples from Tor, they're largely figurative statements.  It doesn't have to be Tor.  It doesn't have to be guarding.  That's all super specific information that would only become relevant if the idea itself is being largely entertained.   But largely, yes.  If you're a Tor Scorpion, and you've been a Tor Scorpion for five years, or two years, or whatever-the-number-you-want, you'd likely have picked up some things about <insert trademark>.

Now for that next section, I just don't even know what the hell, dude.  We're sitting here talking about knowledge and traits of groups, and I use some shallow metaphor to demonstrate a point that you even said was simple enough, and you throw a physical-condition based disproof like it's a math theorem with a weird, misguided call to pathos mixed in?  You're telling me that if you hung out in a mechanic shop, not even doing anything, just observing and listening, for years, you wouldn't pick up on anything about running a shop the way they run their shop?  Or is this going to turn into a case where that's illogical because you know a guy who was blindfolded and held in a mechanic shop for two weeks against his will and he learned nothing?

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 07:03:26 PM

Quote from: triste on November 10, 2020, 06:15:59 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay

Quick question, why are many of your posts arguing for rigidly defining roleplay then with simplistic notions like "People in House Tor are good at guarding. They get a bonus to guard." Seems like you are asking for staff to do something that you correctly state causes us to lose players. Yeah, let's not do that!

Quote from: Armaddict on November 10, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Oh, I would have loved to tell this to my ex, a coder, who passed away at age 23 due to an inherited heart condition. If you just hung around people with high endurance like football players, my deceased love and coder friend, your heart would still be beating today.

No, Armaddict... it doesn't work that way. He's dead. No amount of endurance training could fix his malformed heart. How I wish your arguments were logically true, but they are not.

Realism can be heartbreaking, but I prefer realism because it leads to better roleplaying.

...I don't really even grasp where this comes from.  No.  I do not define roleplay, I argue against the narrowing of the definition of roleplay. I have been incredibly all-inclusive in regards to what kinds of players should be here for a long time.  It's literally a recurring theme that seems to have escaped you.  And while I use examples from Tor, they're largely figurative statements.  It doesn't have to be Tor.  It doesn't have to be guarding.  That's all super specific information that would only become relevant if the idea itself is being largely entertained.   But largely, yes.  If you're a Tor Scorpion, and you've been a Tor Scorpion for five years, or two years, or whatever-the-number-you-want, you'd likely have picked up some things about <insert trademark>.

Now for that next section, I just don't even know what the hell, dude.  We're sitting here talking about knowledge and traits of groups, and I use some shallow metaphor to demonstrate a point that you even said was simple enough, and you throw a physical-condition based disproof like it's a math theorem with a weird, misguided call to pathos mixed in?  You're telling me that if you hung out in a mechanic shop, not even doing anything, just observing and listening, for years, you wouldn't pick up on anything about running a shop the way they run their shop?  Or is this going to turn into a case where that's illogical because you know a guy who was blindfolded and held in a mechanic shop for two weeks against his will and he learned nothing?

Uh, yeah, it's just a fact that a legally braindead person left on life-support in a mechanic's shop wouldn't become a good mechanic by proximity like you're saying they would.

A Sergeant in the Tor Scorpions might specialize in guarding, or cartography (if it hasn't been removed from game) and tactics, or night-time reconnaissance, or archery and long-ranged tactics. Why do you want to shaft 3 our of 4 of these concepts out of the skills they want just to serve that 1 in 4 concept? It's cartoonish and restrictive to give a flat bump in a clan and kills diverse, game fitting concepts.

QuoteUh, yeah, it's just a fact that a legally braindead person left on life-support in a mechanic's shop wouldn't become a good mechanic by proximity like you're saying they would.

A Sergeant in the Tor Scorpions might specialize in guarding, or cartography (if it hasn't been removed from game) and tactics, or night-time reconnaissance, or archery and long-ranged tactics. Why do you want to shaft 3 our of 4 of these concepts out of the skills they want just to serve that 1 in 4 concept? It's cartoonish and restrictive to give a flat bump in a clan and kills diverse, game fitting concepts.

...okay, play a legally braindead person in the Tor Academy, and I'll agree you probably shouldn't pick anything up.  Most people are gonna pick something up.

It doesn't make them masters.  The numbers presented were larger than even I was thinking.  And it doesn't kill roles, the same way that you still see crafters joining non-crafting clans, or the long-time tradition of assassin-soldiers.  The presence of a bonus in something they don't plan on using, or something they don't even have, doesn't kill the role.  The role is still there.  They're even at the same disadvantage as they were before.  The only thing that changes is just that these guys learn that thing faster (the bump), and could theoretically become the best in the Known at it (if it goes higher than the normal max).

However, I actually like mansa's post, and would funnel my arguments about how viable this is or isn't over to that, which broadens the discussion to be less 'zero'd in' and lets other topics be at hand.  You and I are going into deep semantic levels on justifications, which is not particularly helpful to anything interesting.  I'm assuming you'll respond to this, triste, and maybe some other voices of disagreement for last word purposes...but again.  I like where his head's at for the thread.

Quote from: mansa on November 10, 2020, 05:54:24 PM
Rereading the original post,  I think the idea was to have some sort of progression system within a clan structure that would give additional perks besides the current perks of progressing in clan rank:
* All clanned NPCs assists the higher ranking PC
* Additional coins on your monthly stipend
* Access to different areas of the clan bases.
* Access to a NPC follower
* Access to NPC goods distributers
* Access to Clan Items


Let's consider the T'zai Byn as an example:
When you're Rank 1 - Runner, you get access to:
#1 - Clan Base
#2 - NPC goods distributer (Cook)
#3 - Byn Clan Aba

When you're Rank 2 - Trooper, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items

When you're Rank 3 - Sergeant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items
#3 - Clan Flags (Recruiter, Leader, Banker, etc)

When you're rank 4 - Lieutenant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items


Are there additional perks that could be provided to those characters who progress in rank beyond the current coded perks?
Can players who reach rank 3 and 4 (and 5 and 6) of established clans get coded benefits which are unique to the fantasy/story aspect of those clans?

I didn't reply to mansa's post because no additional clan perks are needed besides what are called for in a given roleplay situation.

I agree with staff completely in this thread. I am known for not agreeing with staff, but they are right here.

I am going to borrow one from Shabago and capitalize what actually matters here. This game is about ROLE PLAY. In a ROLE PLAY INTENSIVE game you don't see a numeric level in your skill sheet. In a ROLE PLAYING game I don't construct and lay out charts, except to minimally think about mechanics so I can focus on ROLE PLAY.

(Again staff, thanks for the clear weigh in here, it allows me to relax. And much love <3)

Quote from: Brokkr on November 10, 2020, 10:54:52 AM
-We aren't looking to add stat boosts to clans.
-We aren't looking to add new skills to your skill list for joining a clan.
-We aren't looking to give a higher skill cap than you can otherwise get for joining a clan.

-We aren't looking for people to make new clans like the Soh.  They are desert elves and PC made desert elf clans have been prohibited for a long time now.
-We aren't looking to make things equal between IC groups.  Yes, Tor nobles might be able to get some great stuff.  That they order from Salarr.  The best makers of armor and weapons in the Known.  Who spend a lot of time on those things, cause it is Tor.  Will your PC clan be able to replicate that?  Likely not.

-Just because you are discussing it, just means you have some ideas in your heads.  No use loosing them over stuff we aren't even contemplating.

I don't think there should be perks that directly affect the core 4 stats of a character - i.e. Strength, Agility, Wisdom, and Endurance.
Additional stats, such as 'movement points', 'mana', 'hit points', and 'stun points' - I'd like to see the possibility to have items that increase/decrease these values.  Movement points are already a factor for most clan items.  I could envision a nice, comfortable undershirt that would give +3 to stun points - because you're so cool and comfortable in the desert heat, so you can concentrate better.

I don't think players should get additional skills or higher skill plateaus for the act of joining a clan, either.  I tend to want some modification tied to rank of some sort - people rank 3 get access to a special tattoo / special glove / special food.  That way it shows that characters are progressing through some sort of clan structure and becoming more ideally what the clan identity is.  Could Corporals and Sergeants of the City Militia get a +2 and a +4 to the scan skill for reaching Rank Corporal and Rank Sergeant, respectively?  Perhaps it's tied to their Clan Rank Tattoo or Cloak or Badge?  Could a Master Crafter of Salarr get access to the +5 tool from the NPC that only sells to clan members ranked 4 or higher?

I agree on doing more with clan ranks at higher ranks than stat boosts. It might empower players to stick around during their character's recruit year and on. I remember seeing a post about special pins in House Salarr. Would rather see these items rather than oh, if you stick around long enough and achieve lots, you can lifeswear.

• Barsook, I like pins and stuff - various Houses have access to them and they are, of course, meant to denote achievement. I've always liked the idea of seeing some old Salarri with some Tor pins, a couple of Kuraci pins, etc, denoting their history.


• Mansa, I think cool House-Only items that are better than other items are always a neat idea. I also approve of access to them being gated behind advanced ranks. But I don't think they should represent a House's special training. They should represent a House's special deep pockets. Cool House-Only items, really, represent the Merchant Houses' special training, be that Kurac, Salarr, or Kadius.


• Triste, we're not going to agree often, and that's fine. Since this is a thread discussing an idea that will probably never be implemented, neither of our opinions really matter, so ultimately, neither of us are going to end up winning. However, if they ever consider tossing it in, a thread like this can be used to perhaps lay out a strong blueprint for how to do it in the best way possible.
  
  And on some level you have to be able to understand this, even if you don't want to admit it; if a Silver Scorpion specializes in guarding, or cartography and tactics, or night-time reconnaissance, or archery and long-ranged tactics, and they gain access to raised caps on guard/rescue, nothing at all changes except they gained improved access to a skill. Nothing at all changes, except they are absorbing the training House Tor imparts upon them in endless lectures and training that they are already undergoing because they are Silver Scorpions.
  
  And in fact, if for some reason House Tor thinks that this particular Silver does not have to do those things, then other than having those skills on their list, nothing at all changes. If they don't work on it, then they don't use the training they've received because they don't have to. Their raised cap on shield doesn't mean anything to them, because they decided not to use it. It is, in fact, no different than a warrior-class swordsman, who chooses to only use swords, having slashing weapons at master and every other weapon skill at apprentice. They just don't use it.
  
  You keep saying things about gaining skills or higher caps on skills destroying roles, but there's just no point at which that actually happens.

Ultimately, this thread, no matter what was proposed and what evolution it's gone through, has really been about defining roles that are already defined in the world. It's a pretty simple concept, when one just considers the concept without bias. If a House (and I do note Houses here because they are keepers of written knowledge and have centuries of history behind them) is supposed to be the Master of something, then they, simply, should have the potential to be the Master of it. The Merchant Houses have their Masteries in the game already. I can't find a good reason to not have militant clans be the Masters of something.

Meso was mentioned. Meso was very good, but he would have been just as good code-wise in the Byn, or Kurac, or where ever he wanted to be that at. He wanted to play a Scorpion. As a Scorpion, he got to be a teacher and do that whole sophisticated soldier bit, but, ultimately, some drunken Bynner could have been just as good, code-wise. I struggle to see how, given a raised cap on a couple of skills because he was a Scorpion for a long period of time, anything would have changed for him or the people he trained, aside for him gaining the reward for being a long tenured Scorpion in an IC and coded manner.

I don't like items conveying bonuses that would come from training - training is about how to use those tools better than the layman. At the core, training requires time, while cool items require money. A raider shouldn't have access to training by stealing an item, they should gain access to technology by stealing an item.

I don't mind the idea of a tattoo conferring a bonus, since on a basic level, you earned it with time, and it can't be stolen. But I like the idea of raising caps more than I like bonuses to confer training, since even after the cap is raised, you still have to work to access that higher training. Tying raised caps to tats would probably be infinitely easier to implement than changing the clan code, if this ever got put in, and it would pretty much do the exact same thing.

And for the last time, I prefer skills to stats - stats are too raw. Skills have more nuance, and ultimately are taught, which again, is the whole point of this thread; skills taught by masters of the art. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only reasons stats have been mentioned by anybody is because we're just talking about the concept, not the reality.

Speaking about pins, were they ever awarded? In the 12 years of playing, I don't recall seeing any. Or I didn't look hard enough.

+1 to skills instead of stats, it gives more reason for an combat elite groups in game which people want back and certain skills denote what that elite group masters.

I guess the next questions are which skill for which group? And which group can be playable for IC and OOC reasons?

Yeah, they're in. They're part of at least three clans, and I've earned awards in two of them. Hell, I helped write some of them. Even on my current character, I've noticed a few people with the pin-board items around, like a sash or braid or such. Just gotta keep your eyes peeled. And when you see them, ask them about their pins - there's probably a story attached to them.

I've got to head to work, so no time to hash out group specializations, but I'll certainly have myself a think about it over the course of the day, and I'll try to have a shot at it when I get back tonight, along with reasoning behind it.

Quote from: Barsook on November 12, 2020, 05:41:34 AM
I guess the next questions are which skill for which group? And which group can be playable for IC and OOC reasons?

The great thing about the decision staff posted here is we don't have to waste our time asking and answering these immersion breaking questions and we can just focus on roleplay.

One interesting thing about every argument posted here in favor of [stat/skill/crotch] bumps comes with a counter-argument that predates the argument in favor. One thing people often complain about [before they quit playing for good] are ultra-entrenched long lived PCs that you have no choice but to avoid if you don't want to deal with them. You can't kill them, you're in Allanak, so if they've killed your character 3 times in a row, you just have to avoid Allanak. A system like this would reinforce that entrenchment. But a lack of fairness and inequality fits the setting, you say! Yes. But do it in a way that creates roleplay rather than killing it.

A common sort of news article you will see IRL is "Karate Black Belt Killed in Fist Fight," or "Boxing Champion Robbed at Knifepoint." These articles are widely published not only because it's ironic, but what is MOST ironic is that if people used their brains these outcomes are actually totally unironic and expected. Does gaining "levels" and becoming a "black belt" actually give someone a bonus to fighting? Absolutely not.

So why do we want magic levels and black belts that give you +2 to the Kick skill when it's something ludicrous and only a 6 year old fan of the Karate Kid would believe in? Our game is more sophisticated than that and thankfully staff recognize it.

Seriously, if stat-boosts existed IRL... Caesar would have never been stabbed because of his sweet +10 to parry and +5 Caesar armor. Joan Of Arc would have never been burned alive because her communion with God gave her +10 resistance to magickal effects and fire and she skipped off the witch's pyre. Franz Ferdinand would have absorbed those bullets like the Liquid Metal Terminator and we would have no world wars.

Yes. The beautiful thing about Armageddon is we don't have silly scenes like the above, but we have scenes more suited to reality and engaging conflict. A 'rinther can get paid to kill a Noble, and if they are good enough and succeed, be immortalized as the 'rinther [who had no fancy skill boosts] and changed the Known World. Let's keep that plot on the table for everyone rather than killing dozens of plots so that an elite few can bedazzle their score sheets. The 'rinther doesn't have a fair chance in either system, but at least in one the 'rinther can work within realistic constraints. No immersion-breaking, superhero like plots, thanks!

Quote from: triste on November 12, 2020, 08:50:08 AM

Quote from: Barsook on November 12, 2020, 05:41:34 AM
I guess the next questions are which skill for which group? And which group can be playable for IC and OOC reasons?

So why do we want magic levels and black belts that give you +2 to the Kick skill when it's something ludicrous and only a 6 year old fan of the Karate Kid would believe in? Our game is more sophisticated than that and thankfully staff recognize it.

Because I've trained my whole life for it, thrown 10,000 kicks, climbed the highest mountain and searched out the master teacher of the roundhouse, and she herself indoctrinated me into her house and punished me for an addition two years until, finally, at the very end of a week long sparring match, I can make claim that my roundhouse can defeat any other.

I can either do the following:
#1 - log everything, send it in, request to have a skill bump to the kick skill.
#2 - have an approved fantasy "master" be able to distribute a skill bump automatically after reaching a certain rank (after an immortal manually promotes the character to rank "master kick")
#3 - have an approved fantasy "master" be able to distribute a skill bump automatically after applying a tattoo of +2 kicks.

or #4
There is no effect for all the roleplaying training, your kick skill is still the same proficiency as everyone else in the game.

You are suggesting #4 - "everybody is equal"

Quote from: mansa on November 12, 2020, 10:00:19 AM
You are suggesting #4 - "everybody is equal"

I am not suggesting everyone is equal.

I am suggesting the slogan of the game is Murder, Corruption, Betrayal and not Skill Bumps, Guild Levels, and Sweet Gainz. I literally say in my arguments "The 'rinther doesn't have a fair chance in either system," including what I am advocating for. Happens to be what staff are advocating for.

I was trying really hard to empathize with the opposing side and I suddenly realized it's because you guys are capping out your skills. Sorry that's why it's been hard for me to empathize! I don't have a lot of time to play and focus on roleplaying, so I think I've capped out my skills once, ever, on a character.

I see how you think I am arguing for the "Everyone is the Same" position. I'm really not. I've never seen this elite tier where everyone has capped out their skills and are the same. I don't know what to say other than if you've reached that, congrats!

[Edit, addition]: Seriously and sincerely, if you reach that end game, congrats. Your maneuvers become about politics and intrigue alone now. You are a powerful, well positioned piece on the chess board. Yes, you might get killed, and it might feel unfair because you were some elite Lieutenant. This is the way of chess. Archdukes get killed IRL. In Armageddon, the only people who get magickal powers are Templars who get them from the Highlord. It is harsh, but that is the setting.

Quote from: triste on November 12, 2020, 10:14:08 AM
I was trying really hard to empathize with the opposing side and I suddenly realized it's because you guys are capping out your skills. Sorry that's why it's been hard for me to empathize! I don't have a lot of time to play and focus on roleplaying, so I think I've capped out my skills once, ever, on a character.

I see how you think I am arguing for the "Everyone is the Same" position. I'm really not. I've never seen this elite tier where everyone has capped out their skills and are the same. I don't know what to say other than if you've reached that, congrats!

[Edit, addition]: Seriously and sincerely, if you reach that end game, congrats. Your maneuvers become about politics and intrigue alone now. You are a powerful, well positioned piece on the chess board. Yes, you might get killed, and it might feel unfair because you were some elite Lieutenant. This is the way of chess. Archdukes get killed IRL. In Armageddon, the only people who get magickal powers are Templars who get them from the Highlord. It is harsh, but that is the setting.

I thought it was pretty clear from the original post we're talking about clan leaders, progression with long term affiliation, and retention of long term characters.

The more I think about this, the more I'm on board for just flat skill increases through RP. The caveat being, it has to have structure around it and not be "staff like this PC so they get +10 slashing skill".

While I do prefer items to give bonuses, allowing more interaction, that seems beside the point of the original post.

I keep coming back to "Why join House Tor if the Byn is open?" Byn provides more opportunity for sparring and coded increases, and a schedule that emphasizes interaction. House Tor is (usually) low population and is more of a prestige-RP clan.

So maybe if you reach a certain rank in the Scorpions, you get a structured skill increase that emphasizes the focus of the clan/training/whatever. Maybe Byn doesn't offer that. Maybe a PC Clan focused in baked goods CAN provide an increase in Cooking skill if it gets to the MMH status.

Lotion posted a great video about fundamental problems in game design. You are advocating for the MMORPG scenario where long lived players amass heaps of power in a way that stifles the opportunities for other characters in a way that hurts gameplay for everyone. Be careful what you wish for fellahs.

Quote
I keep coming back to "Why join House Tor if the Byn is open?" Byn provides more opportunity for sparring and coded increases, and a schedule that emphasizes interaction. House Tor is (usually) low population and is more of a prestige-RP clan.

Going to write the GDB post reply someone is going to post in the year 2021 or 2022 when staff become bored enough to implement this.

Quote
Why is no one joining the Byn or Garrison anymore, or when they do they leave right away to join House Tor? Isn't this a roleplaying game? We need intrinsic motivations for character development besides stats. Because of the hiring cap on Tor, it's basically a waiting game in the Byn for transferring to Tor and there hasn't been an inspiring Byn unit in years.

Riev is a smart man and a veteran player, so he put usually in parentheses. Tor thrived naturally when Meso and other great elites who could bestow their eliteness were there. I am so glad I could earn my skills through great roleplay with Meso of House Tor rather than in a bread line for powergamers.

QuoteQuote
Why is no one joining the Byn or Garrison anymore, or when they do they leave right away to join House Tor? Isn't this a roleplaying game? We need intrinsic motivations for character development besides stats. Because of the hiring cap on Tor, it's basically a waiting game in the Byn for transferring to Tor and there hasn't been an inspiring Byn unit in years.

Riev is a smart man and a veteran player, so he put usually in parentheses. Tor thrived naturally when Meso and other great elites who could bestow their eliteness were there. I am so glad I could earn my skills through great roleplay with Meso of House Tor rather than in a bread line for powergamers.

First off...that GDB post would be answered pretty easily:
Tor is selective.  It's not strange that strong military-oriented characters are lined up to try and get in.  Most of you will not make the cut and will have to work to impress someone to get an in.

That's how that scenario plays out, in that weird-case scenario where you think everyone in the game except you will just default to min-maxing in every way shape and form.  Tor becomes actually able to afford to decline people without it damaging the clan.  They become the premier military in Allanak.  Which is...you know...what the documentation says they are.

As far as Meso, I really find it kinda funny that you keep on bringing that up.  Me and 7DV were the main nobles of Tor in that era.  Slipshod was the Tor noble in the long period beforehand where there wasn't a Meso (that I recall?  Maybe Meso was around then too).  Meso was really good at combat.  He was also the first actually 'buff' scorpion in like a decade.  The nobles playing in Tor were routinely dealing with issues of recruitment and documented value of Tor vs coded value of Tor.  It's great that you enjoyed that roleplay under Meso, because guess what?  That wouldn't stop.  This in no way fights against that roleplay continuing.  What it -does- do is ease a problem that we had...which is building an elite unit that has less exposure to training opportunities (it waxes and wanes pretty hard depending on the militia), and having to feel iffy on providing access to newer players due to the knowledge of code required to actually show some sort of eliteness.  If you were deep in that role, then you probably noticed just how many different lectures and ideas were in the forum about formations, code discussion, strategies, procedures, and so on and so forth. 

The continued assertion that any code that reinforces the game world stops RP is fallacious at best.  This isn't taking someone with 0 skill and giving them a 100.  This isn't 'rush into this clan, get the bonus, leave and keep the bonus'.  This is 'Oh.  You've come a long way, you've been part of this elite unit in <whatever> for long enough to be considered a core part of it.  Yes, you have specialization in this now.  Have a +5 in it.'
BUT THAT'S UNFAIR ADVANTAGE?!  IS IT?!  No.  Not if different groups are getting different things that fit their own reputations.  Seeing <rarely achieved character of maxxed out scorpion> vs <rarely achieved character of maxxed out lyksae warrior> will still be the same fight.  But units of those groups will likely fight differently, which is...fitting, is it not?

Gain access to muls, magickers, and sorcerers through long term play and trust is okay, but gain a skill, or a bump to a skill, through long term play and trust in a clan is roleplay stiflingly unfair?    What a joke.

Really like the idea of a clan tattoo conferring a skill, skill bump, or both.  My imagination can see lots of opportunities for fun roleplay and gameplay from that.

Was my position and Staff's position called a joke only to be immediately followed by a statement that tattoos should give you skills?

Well I guess that is why so many of my friends have tattoos! I like smart, talented people, I just never imagined they got their talents from tattoos!

> l me
You are the lizard guy with midnight black scales. Not only would a tattooist's needle be unable to pierce these scales, but they are pitch black and any ink set in these scales would not show.

list
1] A sweet tatt of a sword drippin' blood +10 parry
2] A hella cool tatt of a muscly arm +10 to slashing.
3] A tattoo of a long phallic gourd for +10 to compensation.
3] Some wicked inkz of +1 heckin new spell!

Buy #3

The weathered, middle-aged half-elf says: "What the fuck are you doing trying to tattoo your scales, I don't even see what you got inked."

You say: I got sweet gainz tattooed into my scales. Sweet Gainz.

> l me
You are the lizard guy with midnight black scales. Not only would a tattooist's needle be unable to pierce these scales, but they are pitch black and any ink set in these scales would not show. He has a bunch of tattoos you cannot see which give him sweet gainz. If you accuse him of caring more about gameplay than roleplay he and all his friends will dogpile you on the GDB because nothing gets between this man and his gainz.

I'm sure that we can grasp that having tats confer a bonus or cap or skill is an OOC construct to handle the code-side work of dealing with the idea. ICly, having access to that tat simply means that you have grasped/understood/gained access to this elite training. We don't have to stretch things that much to understand the divide between IC/OOC or our attempts to bridge that gap.

Fortunately, we don't have any scaly races, so ... not relevant, I guess. Pick your salt up.

Quote from: triste on November 13, 2020, 08:43:07 AM

If you accuse him of caring more about gameplay than roleplay he and all his friends will dogpile you on the GDB because nothing gets between this man and his gainz.

Conversely, one could argue that you like to ridicule and demean people that care about code and roleplay. But I do care about both. If I wanted code, I'd play a regular H&S, and if I wanted roleplay, I'd play a mush. But I want both, so I've been playing Armageddon for 23 years, because both of these are important here. I roleplay far more than I gain skillz, shockingly. But I live and die on code, very literally, so I also consider the code.

This idea has been predicated around the concept that certain organizations have training regiments and specializations - this idea in fact backed by the currently-implemented Clan Crafts. Suggesting that a militant clan might also have such specialized and advanced training seems perfectly in-character to me. Recipes, if you will, of skills that are indicative of that clan's fighting force. It's difficult to imagine that anyone intelligent enough to appreciate this game can't understand the reasoning for the consideration of such a concept, regardless of disagreeing with it or not.

We're a stalwart community of people who've got some reason to stick around and play this game, and even more poignantly, argue for and against concepts, ideas, improvements, etc. Let's try being civil when we're at loggerheads. We'll get more out of it, no matter what the consensus is.

Quote from: Dan on November 10, 2020, 05:16:15 PM
Personally, I have had many different kinds of characters in nearly all of the games clans at one point or another.  These character archetypes have had their own individual motivations, and have put forth wildly varying levels of effort with everything from purposefully slacking off to being incredibly gung-ho and motivated.

Considering that each individual character's motivations are going to differ within each clan, it doesn't really make sense that these characters all gain an equal bonus of any sort.  It doesn't make sense that my spy who only joined a House to find out the secret of X should get 15% basket weaving when that isn't why he is there. The same goes for my Bynner who is really just there to hide out from the law while giving minimum effort and avoiding sparring at all costs.

In my opinion, if you want your character to be a better guard after joining the Byn they should focus on practicing how to guard.

Skill boosts assume each character is putting forth an honest effort to be or become what the House or Clan focuses on, which just isn't true in all cases.

That's a good point, but I don't think it's not the basis of this idea, as I see it. Let's put this another way, but of course, remember that I support raised caps, not added skill.

If the Byn merc is a master of Guard, and the Tor Scorpion is also a master of Guard, do you think that the Tor Scorpion would be out of line gaining access to a mildly raised cap in Guarding to reflect that House's specialization in protection? The raised cap would require more training, and in no way would be an unearned bonus. If you do think it would be out of line, why?

I also might mention that, more than even a raised cap to support the concept of a clan's accumulated knowledge, new commands, skills, or stances please me even more. We currently have the riposte stance, which is a skill for Warrior Class characters. A Bynner might gain a berserker stance, the Militia soldier a stun or intimidate stance, the Scorpion a guarded stance, etc. The Outrider might gain a new mounted stance, the tribal a sandkick or scream stance.

Rather than higher skills (which certainly also has a place), they gain access to clan-specialized stances or moves, which is also a cool idea.

To be clear, in the following response, I am not arguing for equality. Armageddon is an apocalyptic setting with an extreme lack of equality.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. If you've seen footage of some of India's Waste Pickers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_picker) you will find their ability to forage and sort waste is far beyond the efficiency of most machines. Many people who do this develop specialized hooks and tools to efficiently forage through garbage. These people do not work for a House or Clan that teach them their secret waste-picking arts.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. One of the most popular martial arts right now, Capoeira, was invented by slaves. One of the most popular martial arts before that, Krav Maga, was invented by people oppressed by the state and military organizations you all are extolling as granting "elite skills." How do you explain these skills that have not come from elites? Seems kind of like your argument falls apart in the face of this.

I understand the desire to diversify and have specialized skills suited to whatever role you have. But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses you want only to see how it flies in the face of all realism and playability.

Quote from: triste on November 13, 2020, 12:47:47 PM
...But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses ...

Seems like a good idea for a new MMH construct to create... similar to Sujaals' fighting school in the past.   Each school training new combat moves...

Quote from: mansa on November 13, 2020, 12:54:40 PM

Quote from: triste on November 13, 2020, 12:47:47 PM
...But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses ...

Seems like a good idea for a new MMH construct to create... similar to Sujaals' fighting school in the past.   Each school training new combat moves...

I didn't know Sujaal's fighting school, but it sounds like other independent organizations people have tried to form, the very organizations that would fail to form and thrive if we slapped immersion breaking bonuses on Houses. People already complain that independent organizations are too difficult to form.

Best not to kill plots and potential.

Quote from: triste on November 13, 2020, 12:47:47 PM
To be clear, in the following response, I am not arguing for equality. Armageddon is an apocalyptic setting with an extreme lack of equality.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. If you've seen footage of some of India's Waste Pickers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_picker) you will find their ability to forage and sort waste is far beyond the efficiency of most machines. Many people who do this develop specialized hooks and tools to efficiently forage through garbage. These people do not work for a House or Clan that teach them their secret waste-picking arts.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. One of the most popular martial arts right now, Capoeira, was invented by slaves. One of the most popular martial arts before that, Krav Maga, was invented by people oppressed by the state and military organizations you all are extolling as granting "elite skills." How do you explain these skills that have not come from elites? Seems kind of like your argument falls apart in the face of this.

I understand the desire to diversify and have specialized skills suited to whatever role you have. But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses you want only to see how it flies in the face of all realism and playability.

Now, see, that right there's what I expected from you - and I can dig it. And what's more, I don't have a instant retort! Aside from the fact that Capoeira is a unique art that only the very best practitioners are actually dangerous with, and IIRC, Krav Maga is an art with its origins in the IDF, which can certainly be considered a member of the authoritative state, even if that began underground. I personally appreciate Muay Thai, but I digress.

The argument doesn't really fall apart either, because ultimately, the creativity of the establishment still crushes individual innovation on a regular basis (not always!), even in our own world. But you make a good point that I don't have a great retort for. Yet. It's coming, though ... just you wait.

But I still strongly disagree that raising-cap/granting-access for a couple of skills based on a Clan/House's training would be clunky at all. The skill still reads Master for anyone who looks at their skill list, and it appearing on their skill list when they didn't have it before is no different than branching. Coders would have a little bit of work, true, but I disagree to the clumsiness of it. I don't know if it would be worth it - is the poop code worth it? I think the worth would be based on the coders' desire, really.

As far as realism and playability, nah, there's nothing flying in the winds of Whira there. One advantage to the written word is that knowledge (technique and research) are preserved, both of which lend themselves to innovation and adaption, which in turn create specializations. Specializations lend themselves to definitions of purpose, which filters down to employees as additional, unique skill.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 13, 2020, 01:23:11 PM
... and IIRC, Krav Maga is an art with its origins in the IDF ...

Just as an aside here, I'm wrong about this - I'm no scholar on martial arts. Krav Maga was primarily developed by a man who sought to protect his oppressed peoples, but it was refined by the IDF into what it is now. So I'm wrong, and right, all at once. Whew.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 13, 2020, 01:33:30 PM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 13, 2020, 01:23:11 PM
... and IIRC, Krav Maga is an art with its origins in the IDF ...

Just as an aside here, I'm wrong about this - I'm no scholar on martial arts. Krav Maga was primarily developed by a man who sought to protect his oppressed peoples, but it was refined by the IDF into what it is now. So I'm wrong, and right, all at once. Whew.

Yes, we are both wrong and right about all of this. It is often recommended to make a list of pros and cons in a situation like this.

Here's my list of pro's and cons for the situation at hand, supposing the situation is allowing clan based skill boosts:

Pluses:
- You get skills that reinforce the role you're playing.
- It makes Houses compelling and enriching and fixes problems seen in the past for House Tor.
- Sweet skillz and gains that allows you to stand out as a PC / diversify your skill sheet.
- Automation of character skill boosts you can request now.
- Any rebel organizations will go from having some chance of success to less chance of success, which fits setting.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

Cons:
- Whatever bonuses granted might not fit your concept (AKA your house gives a bonus to knitting and your character has a phobia of yarn)
- It might make Houses and groups with less sexy boosts or no boosts less compelling and depopulated.
- Some PCs necessarily will get more sweet skillz than others for reasons not reinforced by roleplay.
- Tons of staff effort to implement automation / this feature generally.
- Eliminates incentives for groups to form naturally from plots, such as a rebel group with no bonuses against groups with bonuses.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

Now that I have resorted to mentioning Nazis directly I will escort myself out of this debate FOR REAL. In all of this, you can also get a kick out of my posts by replacing the word "roleplay" with "mudsex." Please laugh at my expense.

But again, much <3 to staff for the previous posts.

I'd like to point out, that in most instances, the person with formal training will be more sucessful in a fight. But, much like with makers of things like art, there are the occassional prodigy, the guy who made Krav Maga for example likely would have been an even better combatant had he been taught something formally.

Quote from: Hauwke on November 13, 2020, 02:23:27 PM
I'd like to point out, that in most instances, the person with formal training will be more sucessful in a fight. But, much like with makers of things like art, there are the occassional prodigy, the guy who made Krav Maga for example likely would have been an even better combatant had he been taught something formally.

I was friends with a lesbian adult entertainer and cage fighter, she actually went to my Krav Maga gym! Who knew, being an adult entertainer makes people great at punching. Or maybe punching things makes women great at adult entertainment? Here's my point: I want people to play whatever the eff they want as long as it fits setting. You never who is going to be an amazing combatant; let people train up and prove they are a great fighter with whatever backstory or vocation they want.

Quote from: triste on November 13, 2020, 02:16:32 PM
Pluses:
- You get skills that reinforce the role you're playing.
- It makes Houses compelling and enriching and fixes problems seen in the past for House Tor.
- Sweet skillz and gains that allows you to stand out as a PC / diversify your skill sheet.
- Automation of character skill boosts you can request now.
- Any rebel organizations will go from having some chance of success to less chance of success, which fits setting.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

- Yes.
- Yes.
- Kind of, except I really only look at it in light of 1 and 2.
- I certainly favor taking responsibility off of staffs' shoulders when possible. I love seeing them scheming on plots and building new and cool stuff, instead of having to decide if char x gets skill y.
- I don't actually think this is a pro, but conversely, I also don't think it changes their chances for success much, since their attempt to rebel will be predicated on far more than a skirmish somewhere in the sands. That's a battle; rebellion is a war. And war requires far reaching plans and alliances that exceed our code's ability to represent it. A war, in fact, requires roleplay, thankfully.
- Debatable. Since I am a proponent of higher caps to reflect strategic teachings, not flat item-like bonuses that reflect technology, the SS officer would have had to put in the same amount of training as the founder of Krav Maga, and then on top of that, train harder to implement the SS' combative regiment. The Nazi bastard could very well have access to better training, but did they strive to take advantage of it? Remember, the better you become, the harder it is to improve.

Quote from: triste on November 13, 2020, 02:16:32 PM
Cons:
- Whatever bonuses granted might not fit your concept (AKA your house gives a bonus to knitting and your character has a phobia of yarn)
- It might make Houses and groups with less sexy boosts or no boosts less compelling and depopulated.
- Some PCs necessarily will get more sweet skillz than others for reasons not reinforced by roleplay.
- Tons of staff effort to implement automation / this feature generally.
- Eliminates incentives for groups to form naturally from plots, such as a rebel group with no bonuses against groups with bonuses.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

- This is feasible, but using the example of a warrior who focuses on being a master swordsman and doesn't bother to train axes and clubs, doesn't actually change anything about your character unless you wanted it to.
- Well, I think all militant clans with relevant history should have access to some sort of thematically appropriate training, but ... I don't think it invalidates any clan at all, even if they don't. Each clan has its own rules and ways, and they will appeal to anyone who wants to play a concept that jives with that House. I doubt any clan would become more or less populated.
- No PCs would end up getting skills they didn't work for. You can point at time played, sparring sessions had, merits earned to get to the sekrit knowledges rank, and no matter what, they'll have earned it.
- I'm not a great coder, but I can code. I don't think that it would be that hard to handle. Now to be fair, I dabble with coding in C# for Unity, and I think Arm is a mix of Java and C or C+ (can't remember which). A long time ago, I played with a Circle dirivative, which was more advanced than base DIKU but still had it's origins therein. I accomplished some pretty cool stuff in it, and I couldn't really code well. Now, I'd suggest that affixing those cap increases to tattoos earned once the House decided you were worth the training would make it a lot more simple than affixing it to the actual clan ranking system, but ... regardless of which method it used, it's doable, and it wouldn't require some code overhaul. Is it really worth it? That, I don't have the answer to.
- Hell no. A rebel group would have every reason to form as it does now. PC clans made right now form because the founder wants something new and to make their mark on the world. If they'll forego security and free water and food and choose to pay rent and shoulder the responsibility that an indie clan leader deals with, then a couple of skills with a higher cap in some clan isn't going to change a single thing.
And I think you are super concerned about the difference a little increase means. A guard with 85 as opposed to 80 in guarding will just successfully guard 85 percent of the time instead of 80. It's a difference, but it's not mind blowing. It's 8.5/10 as opposed to 8/10. It might be crucial, it might not be, but it isn't some godly difference. If a player decided not to rebel because of that, they were probably never serious in the first place.
- Rank = right to better potential. Potential is the key word. Still have to put in the work. Still have to survive.


So, my own pros and cons.

Pros:
- Thematically appropriate.
- Additional rewards for long-term play in a clan.
- Codify Clans'/Houses' dominance in certain fields.
- Implemented as suggested throughout this thread, is not disruptive in the grand scheme of things.

Cons:
- Coders have to want to tackle it (this is by far my #1 con).
- Could disturb people who don't like code (By far my #2, but I argue that they have got to give what I like a fair shot too).
- Creates marginal unfairness in indie versus clanned roles. I think it's very marginal, but it is there. I don't see it as any different than the cool crafting recipes Salaar has that indie clan #34 doesn't.
- Could possibly attract powergamers, but I argue that if a power-gamer is willing to roleplay for a half a year or potentially much longer, they deserve it. I also am extremely doubtful that anyone who spent that much gaining a skill would then do some OOC stuff with it.

Now, I'll bring this part up again. If a Scorpion had a Tor-derived master at 85 in gaurding, and a Bynner had a warrior-class-derived 80, the Scorpion could say truthfully (both ICly as they should code or not code, and also as far as the code is concerned) that House Tor had training to create the best guards in the Southlands, but they would only protect their charge .5 more times in 10 assassination attempts than the Bynner. Even at 90, the Scorpion would only succeed 1 more time in 10, than the Bynner veteran. That's not to mention that there are other skills that are taken into consideration when guarding someone. And that's not to mention that the Scorpion seeking to achieve that Tor-derived potential, would have been in that clan for a good half a year, maybe a whole year of RL.

It's simply not world changing at all.

Only one small item of note talking about elite versus not-elite.

Knights/knight cavalry versus peasant infantry in medieval Europe.  Knights are going to be able to slaughter the infantry far more often than the other way around, this is due to specialised training.  This would be your Tor Scorpions.

Welsh longbows versus the French at Agincourt.  Those longbowmen (and the English longbows as well) required a lot of training - yes, this was 'indy', but it was dedicated, and one-on-one, they'd get slaughtered by a knight.  Numbers is what counts with longbows to create good volleys.  This would be your Bynners.

Byn has the numbers and consistant, constant training from people who are self-taught (down through the years).  Tor has much fewer numbers, but access to better trainers, better food, better medics...but specifically those highly sought after, top-of-the-line trainers that money can afford, giving one-to-one training on certain aspects (which I doubt the NPC Bynners give/get!).

Another example other than martial arts...one a bit more relevant to the skill trees we've got here?

Quote from: Kyviantre on November 13, 2020, 05:34:07 PM
Only one small item of note talking about elite versus not-elite.

Knights/knight cavalry versus peasant infantry in medieval Europe.  Knights are going to be able to slaughter the infantry far more often than the other way around, this is due to specialised training.  This would be your Tor Scorpions.

Welsh longbows versus the French at Agincourt.  Those longbowmen (and the English longbows as well) required a lot of training - yes, this was 'indy', but it was dedicated, and one-on-one, they'd get slaughtered by a knight.  Numbers is what counts with longbows to create good volleys.  This would be your Bynners.

Byn has the numbers and consistant, constant training from people who are self-taught (down through the years).  Tor has much fewer numbers, but access to better trainers, better food, better medics...but specifically those highly sought after, top-of-the-line trainers that money can afford, giving one-to-one training on certain aspects (which I doubt the NPC Bynners give/get!).

Another example other than martial arts...one a bit more relevant to the skill trees we've got here?

The history nerd in me has to concede all of this is about right. The skeletal structures of some knights reflected this training; the bones of their sword arms were longer and thicker than most people's from all that combat and training. I just would prefer people got these bonuses through roleplaying rather than auto-magically as a result of joining a certain group.

But it isn't auto-magickally...

They join X group, ROLEPLAY for 3 RL months, gain a promotion, ROLEPLAY for another 3 RL months, gain a second promotion, and their NPC clan leader goes, "Dude, you've been here for a few years, we'd like you to meet Geoffrey.  Geoffrey is our <insert skill> trainer.  He's going to spend one day a week (while you're logged out, or via a higher cap - whichever gets settled on) teaching you to be a better <skill> person.  I trusted you to give you two promotions, you deserve some special attention from Geoffrey's teaching.  Take advantage of his advice, and don't mess it up!".

Sure, it is automatic...but getting the promotion certainly isn't automatic.  You gain the promotion via roleplay, but just like when you get access to the Elite Barracks automatically, you'd get access to Geoffrey's Training Scheme For Good Boys And Girls automatically.

No magick either, you still need to train the skill to reach the new cap.

We are literally talking about a few elite-type groups having better Geoffrey's on hand.  The Byn has more people, the Wyverns/Scorpions have Geoffrey and Barry the special trainers.

History nerding is always the right choice!

5 Posts ago, Triste said they were done. Almost every "no" or "disagree" post has been from them.

This is not about "get recruited to House Tor for +2 strength, leave, go to the AoD and get your +5 rescue skill, leave, keep getting skillups". This is 100% about "I've been in this clan and dedicated my time and roleplay for LITERAL. MONTHS. And I am hoping to get a coded bonus to my character that reflects the virtual training that has gone on while I could not play."

Triste has a peg-leg to stand on, because it does kind of 'screw' PC clans. PC clans wont have a long standing tradition and history that allows them to have these skills. You know what they do have? The ability to create a PC clan which we didn't have 5 years ago.

The suggestion is for 'established' clans with NPC command structure that PCs can never attain. You will never create a mercenary company where you are at the same level as Captain Copper. So your PC clan will not have anything near what the T'zai Byn can offer.

Be indie. Make your own clan. Make your coin. Try to become established. Or, join an establishment and reap the benefits if you can survive, and dedicate days of your actual life to enhancing the roleplay of this game.

I say the idea has merit. I don't look down on anyone who thinks about code, nor do I look down on anyone who is social/roleplay only. I would never, ever call people out on the GDB (vague as it is to protect myself from scrutiny) simply to belabor my own point.

Indies have another advantage, too. They have the ability to be fluid, to define and redefine what they do many times over, evolving to any situation that they encounter in a fluid manner large organizations can only dream about. They often have a more familial approach to organization, and they have freedom large clans can only dream about. Yes, they have less culture, in a way, because they have less history, but the players in an indie clan can more easily shift culture, again making that clan a very unique creation that they've had a hand in forming.

House Tor will always be about protecting the Nine and the City. Salarr will always make weapons; Kadius will always create luxury goods. Fale will always fai ... uh ... party. Larger Houses will never replace PC clans, because they will always cater to a sect of players that enjoy that niche. PC Clans will always be the escape from rigidity and role definition that all established clans, even those tribal clans, impose upon their members.

No skill bump or raised cap that takes someone months and years to attain will keep players from pursuing whatever role they want to play, in whatever clan they want to play.

Quote from: Riev on November 13, 2020, 08:28:27 PM
5 Posts ago, Triste said they were done. Almost every "no" or "disagree" post has been from them.

This is not about "get recruited to House Tor for +2 strength, leave, go to the AoD and get your +5 rescue skill, leave, keep getting skillups".

This is absolutely going to happen, though. There is a lot of fluctuation between clans these days, and it's common for long-lived PCs to have had leadership positions in two or three of those. I'm also worried that this encourages doing the absolute minimum required to get promoted, and playing it safe until you get that sweet +5 archery - the only reason you joined up in the first place.

I don't think it's entirely realistic for higher ranked PCs to always be 'better' at something. Anyone in a leadership position is going to focus on - well, that. Leadership. Teaching, training, or strategy. Their lower-ranked minions can focus on development of their own physical skills all day long, leadership has to focus on the group, and might be too old to be in the best shape of their lives.

I agree that clans need to have a few more perks besides 'oh, safe storage and here is some water' (which not even all of them are getting), but I'm not sure this is it.

QuoteThis is absolutely going to happen, though. There is a lot of fluctuation between clans these days, and it's common for long-lived PCs to have had leadership positions in two or three of those. I'm also worried that this encourages doing the absolute minimum required to get promoted, and playing it safe until you get that sweet +5 archery - the only reason you joined up in the first place.

Erm, to clarify...are you guys talking about a bump that persists?  As in you're concerned about someone working their way up for the bonus, then leaving, then doing the same elsewhere?  Because what I've been talking about is more about the clan than the character.  Think of it as the 'heightened awareness of blah blah skill' fading when you're not in that consistent high-intensity-for-it atmosphere, or like less of a knowledge-based skill check and more of a 'constant routine muscle memory' thing from the clan's emphasis on that thing.  In other words, it wouldn't persist.  It is -for that clan-, making characters within it fit the reputation, not -for each character-, from spending some time in a clan.

I prefer an edge that fades outside of that clan, myself, but, being aware that this would require additional, more complex code work, I'd settle for permanent. I don't think it matters if it does persist, as it still serves the purpose of reflecting specialized training, and you can argue that someone might retain that training, but ideally, it does fade, reflecting the dearth of the constant drilling, teaching, and environment that creates that edge.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 14, 2020, 05:30:34 AM

QuoteThis is absolutely going to happen, though. There is a lot of fluctuation between clans these days, and it's common for long-lived PCs to have had leadership positions in two or three of those. I'm also worried that this encourages doing the absolute minimum required to get promoted, and playing it safe until you get that sweet +5 archery - the only reason you joined up in the first place.

Erm, to clarify...are you guys talking about a bump that persists?  As in you're concerned about someone working their way up for the bonus, then leaving, then doing the same elsewhere?  Because what I've been talking about is more about the clan than the character.  Think of it as the 'heightened awareness of blah blah skill' fading when you're not in that consistent high-intensity-for-it atmosphere, or like less of a knowledge-based skill check and more of a 'constant routine muscle memory' thing from the clan's emphasis on that thing.  In other words, it wouldn't persist.  It is -for that clan-, making characters within it fit the reputation, not -for each character-, from spending some time in a clan.

Going to respond to this the way people have been responding to my posts: Are you...


At least 7DV had the decency to realize all the code work in his reply.

Let's imagine we get the world Armaddict wants, a world in which we have sweet boosts with a list of rules and exceptions 10 pages long that defenders of skill boosts have thought of to justify their position.

The Story of the Man with the Biggest Balls in the Known

Amos's Score:
You are affected by: Blue Balls, Sweet Clan +10 to Smashing
Amos: Help! Help! A witch has cursed me and my Pickleberries are the size of Japak Melons now!
Gickerina: Alright, hold still, I'll rid you of this curse!
Mist pours from Gickerina's hand towards Amos, and the massive bulge in his pants diminishes.
Amos's Score:
You are affected by: Nothing
Amos screams: YOU GOT RID OF MY CLAN BOOST?
Gickerina: Your what?
Amos screams: YOUR DISPELL GOT RID OF MY BOOST. Forget it massive swollen glands are alright give me back my SKILLS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MY SKILLS.
Gickerina OOCs: Jesus fuck stop trying to roleplay this immersion breaking shit and just wish up, it's a new feature, some bug just happened.


Banned for Stat Crimes

Sergeant Malik: Are you sure you want to leave, Talia? We won't take you back.
Talia: I am sure, Sergeant. I have something I must do up North... I don't want to disgrace the Militia by wandering off to pursue this.
Sergeant Malik: I'll be frank: it is rare for us to simply let someone of your rank leave, knowing what you know, but you've served well. I'll give you this.
Sergeant Malik dumps Talia from the Militia.
Talia's Score:
You are affected by: Sweet Militia Stat Boost
Talia says: Thank you Malik, is there anything else you need?

[ ALERT ] - Socket got disconnected.
            Reason: The remote host closed the connection

Talia logs back in and thinks, bad timing for a crash.

(Two years later)
Talia's Score:
You are affected by: Sweet Militia Stat Boost
A staff member sends you a message: Oh I see you've had a buggy stat-boost that didn't fade away because a crash messed up the expiration timer. Why didn't you tell us?
Talia sends staff a message: I thought it was normal for it to last that long.
A staff member sends you a message: The documentation clearly states that the bonus fades away after a while.
Talia sends staff a message: But when? When was it supposed to fade? I'm sorry I didn't know!
A staff member sends you a message: An in game month. Oh actually it varies by clan and circumstance because someone said on the GDB that they wanted that. But still. You really should have known better walking around with this boost for two years, we're suspending your account.
Talia sends stafff a message: WHAT??? I never wanted this stupid boost to begin with because I care more about RP PLEASE DON'T.


House Krappius

Kalan thinks: The day has finally come. I've hidden that I'm a breed from my employers to House Krappius so that I could master the greatest douche making techniques in the known. I can't wait for my House Krappius bonus to crafting bidets and douches I've heard about.
Head Merchant Kassy Krappius: I now induct you as a full House Merchant of House Krappius!
Kalan is promoted to House Merchant of House Krappius.
Kalan's score:
You are affected by: +10 to Fellati-owned and Frottage
Kalan screams: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS STAT BOOST I'M NOT A BOTTOM I JUST WANT TO MAKE BIDETS! 
Head Merchant Kassy Krappius: Oh dear!
Kalan: I'm leaving House Krappius right now on my promotion day.
Head Merchant Kassy Krappius: Oh my! People do seem to do that a lot these days.


I can go on forever, or do you have more rules that dance around these obvious failure modes of such a system?

And let's imagine 7DV's proposal in brief.

Min-Max the Badass: I want to join House Tor.
Sergeant Torp: I've heard about you, Max. How can I be sure you won't leave this place as soon as you're promoted?
Min-Max the Badass: Just a reputation. I'm serious.
Min-Max's score:
You are affected by: Smelly Guilder Feet for + 10 to kick, House Jal +10 to salt resistance, House Salarr armor helps u 2 timez as good, +5 to drinking Byn Bonus, +10 to subdue Militia bonus, +5 to listen Oashi Guard bonus
Sergeant Torp: No, I think I'll pass.
Min-Max the Badass: Bad choice.
Min-Max the Badass attacks the Sergeant of House Tor, dealing frightening damage!

(a month later)
Staff: House Tor has been closed due to stat boost hungry twinks killing the Sergeant. I know you all are capable with those sweet boosts but you didn't stop when we asked and now House Tor is closed.


All these scenarios suck: the only good scenarios in this are the ones you lads are imagining when everything goes your way like Min-Max the Badass, but obviously that comes at the cost of harming the entire game for the petty benefit of a few.

 ::)

You're invited to post a good scenario if you want!

But will the back-patting, self-aggrandizing scenario posted outweigh the obvious costs introduced by such a system? We can leave people to decide.

But if your only retort is  ::) my point is proven.

No, I don't need to post a good scenario, Triste. You're not following the idea's evolution, nor are you treating the idea properly considering what's actually been proposed. Instead you're making up scenarios which literally can not or will not happen.

So since you're hell-bent on being as difficult as you can be, ignoring reality, and engaging in extreme exaggeration of imagined flaws in the plan, I don't really think that spending even more time explaining the bones of the idea and giving it flesh and muscle are going to matter.

You can either engage in conversation with dignity and class, or I can ignore you. I assure you, we can and will continue to have this conversation whether you're part of it or not.

It's called anticipating edge cases, and coders often have a sense of humor when they do this.

Either way, I respect Staff members' posted positions up to this point. The game isn't supposed to be fair, but certain mechanisms are obviously ripe for abuse or less than ideal coded outcomes. I think this is why even though I am "difficult" for you, Staff members' positions, so far, have aligned more with mine. Staff aren't interested in adding crappy mechanisms. But I'll let you all continue.

I don't have a problem with edge cases - they can happen and should be anticipated. I respect your ability to conceive them, but they should be relevant to the code you're working on. And they should exist within the framework of what's being presented.

I don't find your edge casing difficult. I don't even find your disapproval difficult. I welcome discussion about solving an idea's problems or even dismissing the idea before the work goes into it, because it's smart.

What I find difficult is that you're not really discussing this idea at this point. You're discussing another idea that, as far as I can tell, really only exists in your world. And your social graces are extremely difficult to deal with.

But, if we're going to agree to engage in civil discourse, let's examine your scenarios.

The Story of the Man with the Biggest Balls in the Known
- Magick can't dispel the mundane. It can't dispel poison, currently, so you have to assume that the code could be written to tell the difference between x, y, and z.

Banned for Stat Crimes
- Staff isn't going to ban you for buggy code that you can't even see.

House Krappius
- Nobody is going to spend half a year in Kadius and suddenly leave because they obtained a bonus to fellatio. Everyone wants a boost to fellatio (j/k).
  But no, seriously, nobody is going to spend half a year in Kadius and leave because their small bonus wasn't what they were hoping for. Also, Merchant Houses have Clan Crafts that already represent their specialty. I wouldn't give them skill boosts.

Min-Max Badass
- Nobody who's spent enough time to obtain all of those bonuses is going to twink-kill the Sarge. If you spend that much time on a character, you have more respect for your story than that.

Quote
House Krappius
- Nobody is going to spend half a year in Kadius and suddenly leave because they obtained a bonus to fellatio. Everyone wants a boost to fellatio (j/k).
  But no, seriously, nobody is going to spend half a year in Kadius and leave because their small bonus wasn't what they were hoping for. Also, Merchant Houses have Clan Crafts that already represent their specialty. I wouldn't give them skill boosts.

Min-Max Badass
- Nobody who's spent enough time to obtain all of those bonuses is going to twink-kill the Sarge. If you spend that much time on a character, you have more respect for your story than that.

Uhg, since you directly replied to me, hopefully I can reply without someone complaining that I am posting.

It's just glass half-empty, glass half-full. You see the glass half-full in your retorts here. I think experience with administering a system like a MUD or any other coded project jaundices one's eye well enough to know that there are plenty of people who play games and use mechanisms in an exploitative way. It's human nature. You then have to decide when to draw the line each time, contact people, get explanations and pleas, and it's just so tedious.

If you want a character with some long term, special potential, there are skill bump apps and a lot of mechanisms available. The ones you are proposing are so imbalancing.

On a positive note: Dar and Delirium's ideas have some tractability, because you *gasp* simply earn the bonus, and have fun RP while you do it. Riev's item idea is also tolerable for the same reason, but suffers from possible exploits to about the same degree as 7DV/Aruven/Armaddict's idea.

Quote from: Kyviantre on November 13, 2020, 05:34:07 PM
Only one small item of note talking about elite versus not-elite.

Knights/knight cavalry versus peasant infantry in medieval Europe.  Knights are going to be able to slaughter the infantry far more often than the other way around, this is due to specialised training.  This would be your Tor Scorpions.

Welsh longbows versus the French at Agincourt.  Those longbowmen (and the English longbows as well) required a lot of training - yes, this was 'indy', but it was dedicated, and one-on-one, they'd get slaughtered by a knight.  Numbers is what counts with longbows to create good volleys.  This would be your Bynners.

Byn has the numbers and consistant, constant training from people who are self-taught (down through the years).  Tor has much fewer numbers, but access to better trainers, better food, better medics...but specifically those highly sought after, top-of-the-line trainers that money can afford, giving one-to-one training on certain aspects (which I doubt the NPC Bynners give/get!).

Another example other than martial arts...one a bit more relevant to the skill trees we've got here?

While it's true that Knights dedicated their whole lives to combat training. Because their profit, well being, and promotion depended on it. While most non-elite forces were peasants that were pulled away from their fields, given a spear (Not a sword, swords are expensive), and made to fight. So yes. A knight would eviscerate a peasant.

But ... knights were counted in hundreds at best, peasants were counted in thousands. What kept the knights from being swarmed? Their combat training? No. No way in hell.

What kept the knights from being swarmed was armor, lances, and most importantly ... a horse. An armored horse at that. In Combat, knights did not fight one on one. They were a strike cavalry force, where they'd charge through the people and then ride away.

The weapons that the peasants had often could not damage the armor. Which is why people began to use maces. Partly because the maces would pierce the armor better, but also because it would bend the armor and stun the person inside it. Mostly, if a knight got pulled off his horse and surrounded by 10 peasants, that knight is cooked.  But if a charge ran through the ranks and came out on the other side, very often the total loss of life for the knights was zero.

Why did Knights have heavier, longer swords? Definitely not due to training, or their immense strength. They were normal human beings. Nor is it because those swords were better at killing peasants. If a knight is fighting peasants on foot, he already lost. And those swords were very bad for using while mounted. Sables are best for that as later age cavalry shown.

Knights had longer heavier swords for fights against other knights. Which has happened from time to time when one knight cavalry caught up with another knight cavalry. Due to low numbers of knights in general, such fights often ended up in one on one/two on one mismashes. That's where reach, armor piercing, and the sheer force of the blow (multiplied by weight) had the greater impact.  Leave the concepts of Great Cleave that kills 3 people at once at the door please.


In short. While training of course had a big impact. That training wasnt supernaturally different somehow. It was just a matter of dedicating your life to military training, instead of plowing fields. A big matter that made knights stand out was his gear. His chain and plate armor, his long spear, and most importantly ... the horse.

That's also why crossbows were loathed and were considered dishonorable. Because once crossbows came about with enough power, the bolts would pierce the armor.

Mercenaries who tended to have a bit better gear and training would've been affective against knights. But if they were dismounted, there was always this matter of the cavalry just rushing past you, taking it's toll in death, and then racing on before you can slow its charge.


Unfortunately, none of this is significantly relevant in Arm's combat mechanics. As gear loses out significantly to skill training and stats. And 2 lifesworn Tor who spent their last 5 years training with each other (At least when their irl schedules synced) and are decked out in their best Tor gear will get themselves massacred by 2 Bynners with shit gear, but who had a dozen other bynners available all around to provide a steady combat skillz training.

I always always always grimaced when I saw Bynners try to goad Tor/Wyverns into actual combat. Be it spar, or an arena challenge. Because Bynners would either win, or they were so extremely outmatched 1 game year on byn vs 8 game years on wyvern. Or something similar.


This thread is moot. Staff have specifically said that NO, they are not interested in this avenue of development. And that's it. There are other things that will improve this game that they will be working on.   And that's fine. It'll be my last post regarding this topic. But I'd just like to express that 'yes', if properly done, this will improve the gameplay and improve roleplaying instead of detracting it.







If properly done.

Soooo....
1) Staff position was already made early on in the thread.
2) Early on I also acknowledged it and said that most GDB ideas don't make it through regardless of support, and a lot of ideas that are much more contested are implemented.  Most of the time, some sort of discussion continues anyway.

People either view the GDB as a place to get things done, or a place to talk about the cool shit that is Armageddon.  People with the former view tend to evolve into the latter as they realize point 2 above, or they stop participating as much.  You can be whichever you please, triste, but the thing that keeps making me eyeroll is when you keep on essentially pointing out bugs or abusive behavior (unlikely as it seems to me) or strange outliers instead of the concept itself in genuine terms.  You keep making the constant inference that there's just this everpresent non-roleplaying faction that you're singlehandedly combatting.  In your consistent PM's, you say things like 'The real reason I hate this idea is that I'll never get to use it', then go down a constantly devolving path of 'THIS ISN'T RP, YOU'RE COSTING US PLAYERS, I'M DONE WITH THIS DISCUSSION'.

I asked for clarification from someone to see what page they were on, which page I was on, and where we differed in order to find the things that needed ironing out for the 'This would be cool' discussion to continue, and I'm not certain about what exactly in that drew you back in with more weird scenarios where you even bring -staff- behavior in...IF THIS HAPPENS YOU COULD BE THE VICTIM OF A BAN BECAUSE OF THIS IDEA, VOTE NO NOW! 

QuoteLet's imagine we get the world Armaddict wants, a world in which we have sweet boosts with a list of rules and exceptions 10 pages long that defenders of skill boosts have thought of to justify their position.

It isn't a list of rules and exceptions unless you think of it that way.  What we've talked about is small, but relevant boosts that do something small in the short term (i.e. Dude hasn't gotten much training for the myriad of IC and OOC reasons that this happens), in that small bump, and something notable in the long run (i.e. Dude gets high level at the skill and becomes actually -better- at it by some margin than most can achieve)...and we've talked about the various ways of implementing that (i.e. Items, flat bonuses, no bonuses, and mansa has called for other ideas non-related to this one), and made changes based off of concerns or preferences.  Those concerns...are the bug cases, the abuse cases, that you bring up, as unlikely as they seem.  That's helping coding, and is setting the framework for how things behave.  It's strange that you talk about coding, but talk about bugs in scenarios that say 'Don't implement this idea, I hate it!' instead of what would be more coder-like, which is 'How do I implement it in a way that minimizes these sorts of bugs?'  I am a coder, and I just have very very little exposure to people who talk about it in that way.

We are not some sort of anti-RP cabal trying to slip one past staff by talking about an idea we're intrigued by and trying to make it morph and fit into a usable, utilitarian delivery.  Jesus, just some of the names involved in it should you kind of aware of that. You keep dumping that plate on some pretty fantastic roleplayers.

I agree with the above from Armaddict and 7DV.

This is not the first thread that has gone from "Discussion of Topic X" to "Discussion of Triste's Opinions on Topic X".  It's a tiring trend for me.

Triste enticed/threatened us with backing off and leaving this discussion when I "insulted" around the second or third page, then promptly increased the post frequency with some back to back posts mixed in for good measure.  Triste might find some value in sitting back and watching a conversation develop amongst others for a whole page (or even half a page) within a thread.  It is as though Triste worries we'll get two steps down the path of brainstorming without keeping their very personal and unique objections at the forefront of our minds.  Even if some other people agree with those concerns, that constituency doesn't require constant obstructionist representation in the thread.  Many of them even speak for themselves.  Even if 99% of the GDB polled disliked the idea it doesn't represent the total number of people who play the game.  Even if some staff do chime in, I daresay they're not speaking for all staff, for all time, for all possible permutations of the ideas on the table.  The OP and Armaddict already had some of this conversation in that 2015 thread, and it might come up again someday.  I'd also like to see/hear staff's feedback on a larger variety of posts within threads, rather than the bullet points Triste has continued to hammer for or against in post after post to dominate the direction of the conversation leading up to a staff person's joining in.

Triste speaks about "winning" and "losing" as if this is an adversarial process where staff will lock the thread at the end, score it like a boxing match, and either implement or forever prohibit the idea based on the outcome.  This is not that kind of a debate.  This is a petri dish for growing ideas.

I can find value in these conversations even if we don't see our ideas implemented exactly as we describe them here.  Frankly, I've been a little uneasy recently when I've seen some changes go into the game based purely on GDB activity.  It's important (to some) to remember that there are players who read these boards and never post, and players who don't read these boards other than Staff Announcements.  In the 24 years I've played this game I've had relatively little to do with the GDB.  I was happy with in-game rumor boards and a website for big announcements and password protected clan docs.

Triste, I don't want to address any more of my part in this conversation to you.  I don't want to reread my ideas before I post to try to defend against bad faith deliberate misinterpretations.  I don't want to be subjected to passive aggressive pejoratives and wild argumenta ad misericordiam. I just want to brainstorm with my friends and fellow Armers here.  You're not really adding anything new to conversation other than reminding us repeatedly that you don't like the premise.  You speak about attempts to empathize and concerns about driving people to disengage from or quit the game; no need for hypotheticals, you are driving me to disengage from posting and in some cases even reading GDB threads.  Food for thought.  Or not.

I'm a hopeless optimist, so I'll take one last stab at joining the conversation, maybe talking around some unhelpful posts.  Otherwise I guess I'm on the verge of "losing" and will just give up (and when I announce I'm done with a conversation, you can watch what happens to my post count in the thread).

---

Earlier Mansa proposed a framework to build some brainstorming upon, using ranks within the Byn.  I appreciate the effort to get the conversation moving and the creative juices flowing into a jell-o mold.  I think my problem was using the Byn as the example clan, as they are more of a jack-of-all trade/master-of-none clan that wouldn't have a single specialty.  Or to put it another way, their "specialties" are already-baked in and backed up by existing code in my opinion.

This thread had attracted a number of former Tor players, perhaps because we've experienced this disconnect most acutely.   Big HRPTs where Art of War style strategizing and collaborating with staff to shape the future of the world are few and far between.  I can count them on one hand and I've already aged myself in this post.  So we Tor players have had to manifest our expertise in strategy and tactics within the limits of the game's combat code.  The documentation states that the Tor clan is top shelf for all things military, yet in code terms their leader PCs are by most straightforward measures inferior to Templar PCs.  Their guard/soldier PCs are at best the coded equals of mercenaries and spar-happy AoD privates, and in reality are usually weaker for lack of sparring partners.  This might sound like stating the obvious, but when playing in and representing a clan with a specialty, it all hinges on the other outside players going along with the clan's documented reputation.  When I played a Tor Lord,  I would say 33% of the Templar PCs he encountered treated him like an expert in military strategy.  RP sessions with a Templar PC who was backing up that reputation with their RP made Tor "real" for all the PCs in that session.  If combat broke out and the Tors were all mortally wounded while the Whatsit guards stood proud, that could be immersion breaking.  And if the other 66% of the Templar PCs reverted more often than not to treating Tors based on their coded abilities, immersion was further harmed.   But in a way, who could blame them?  Unless it was a pre-planned HRPT with staff support, I as a Templar player wouldn't want to assign a Tor lord with what I know are 3 newbie scorpions and one special app Silver to guard a pass when I have a Byn, or AoD, or even a group of some buff indy hunters along as conscripts.

If I can attempt to reframe us (even though I think the OP has given up on his thread), would it be helpful to identify those clans or other categories of PCs we think do not get treatment consummate with their fact-based reputations in the game world?  Some clans have a reputation that is reinforced by code already.  Kurac can refine spices better than other clans.  Salarr can make higher quality weapons.  Kadius can produce finer silks.  The merchant houses have specialties and monopolies, but none leap out at me as lacking reinforcement.  Templars need to be feared, and I think they are.  Elves get more stamina.  Half-giants get more HP.  So which groups are lacking and what could help?  I admit some of my ideas might seem mmorpg-ish, but I'm imagining this as a game that evolves and can become more complex where that serves immersion.  I also like the idea of a "senior" PC being able to convey the bonuses on the clannies in the room for a set duration, maybe with a minimum number of clannies required to kick in.  Dispute or remind me if you think something on my list is backed up in game already.  Add what I've forgotten.  Or none of the above.

House Tor - Reputation for masters of military strategy and tactics, akin to ancient Sparta amongst the Greek city states.  Currently on par with any other group of PCs in terms of combat code.
   I could imagine Scorpion PCs in the room getting a bonus to flee in the same direction when a Tor-trained commander issues a Retreat Command to his unit. 
   I could imagine Scorpion PCs in the room getting a boost to shield use when the commander issues Shield Wall Command. 
   I could also imagine many of the things others have suggested in this thread.

House Oash - Monopoly on ocotillo wines is currently enforced by code.  Oash has a reputation for employing gemmed mages, and AFAIK being the only ones who do so other than the Templarate.  Do they also have a reputation for being extra good at all things magick-y?   Could that benefit from coded reinforcement? 
   I could imagine a boost to Oash PC mages' mana regen when their senior mage in the room issues the Group Meditate Command.

Atrium - (I saw something about this in another thread) Reputation for training the best aides.  Currently most aide work seems to be RP based and someone can start RPing a master aide without having attended the Atrium with their PC.
   I could imagine an Atrium student completing enough training to get a boost to the number of items they could hold in their inventory (or just +agility if that's easier).  Serve the 12-top.
   I could imagine an Atrium student gaining a Poison Detection ability if they've gone through food taster training.

Certain D-Elf or Outrider clans - a stamina or stamina regen boost for having a leader Run the Pack or Herd the Mounts.  Though I'm not sure these clans need reinforcement or have such reputations.


Bed time.  Hoping sense was made.

Atrium - a boost to cooking might be good?  I know the last time I played an Aide, being able to cook was considered a 'needful thing' by the Noble bosses.

I haven't posted in 4 posts, 20 paragraphs or so, and a whopping 5000+ words or so.

Yet I check here and see slipshod insulting me over several sentences, spending more time disparaging me and my ideas more than I have spent time individually disparaging anyone.

Golden rule. Stop acting like monsters. I kept backing off because of disgusting harassment like what you posted, and now you post more disgusting harassment when I finally back off? Sounds like the tactics of a fourth grade bully. Not smart or sophisticated or kind.

Reminder that Staff's position is more in line with mine than these recent posts. People like slipshod can try to shut up people with this position by slinging insults... But what a barbaric and small minded tactic.

I kinda like the "Special Maneuvers" type of enhancement slipshod suggests. While there's a ton of good ideas throughout the thread about defining a House's teaching, this idea takes the leaders of these clans and gives them actual features, not just boosted skills.

The Red Scorpion's POV
>The steely-eyed man issues an order to those who will heed it.
You remember the steely-eyed man's training: Tactical Retreat.
You remember how to follow your leader in retreat and avoid opportunity attacks.

>The steely-eyed man tactically retreats south.
The straight-backed NPC guard follows the steely-eyed man and retreats south.
You follow the steely eyed man and retreat south.

The Silver Scorpion's POV
>issue Tactical Retreat
>You impart House Tor training: Tactical Retreat.

>flee south

>You tactically retreat south.
The straight-backed NPC guard follows you and retreats south.
The hulking, bronzed woman follows you and retreats south.

*Of course, I've got to note here - this is probably a lot more codework than raised caps or skill boosts. But it's really, really cool, and I like it a ton.

I dig this idea for the same reason as 7DV. Here's a possible problem: we are asking for the staff to open up the elite forces of each open clan that has one. Or at least a few of them. I'm pretty sure the staff only wants one to be opened based on the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread and I feel like it's going to be open for storytelling reasons rather than from us asking for one to be open. Which I'm happy for.

ETA: That elite force could just be the Sun Legions not like the Oashi Elite.

I like scenes where roleplay is first:

A Sergeant screams: We're losing, we have to retreat!
Amos flees to the south.
A Sergeant screams: Breedy, Talia, hurry up!
Talia flees to the south.
A Sergeant flee to the south.
To the north you see: Breedy the Badass fights until he dies.
A Sergeant says: Well, Breedy did say he had a score to settle. I can't deny him that.


Not Final Fantasy Tactics style skills or whatever videogame / non-real-life thing this idea came from:

A Sergeant screams: We're losing, we have to retreat!
Amos flees to the south.
A Sergeant screams: No, flee tactically!
Amos yells from the south: I did! I'm alive and it looks like you guys are dying!
A Sergeant screams: I MEANT USE THE COMMAND YOU IDIOT
A Sergeant tries to tactically flee south, but flees north over the shield wall!
The entire unit but Amos runs over the shieldwall!
Breedy screams, as they fly off the Shieldwall: I told you I had a score to settle Sarge now I will never get my reveeeeeengeeee....
Amos thinks, wow, I am sure glad I still play this game like it's a realistic RPI it used to be rather than relying on tacky, videogamey skills!

Quote from: Barsook on November 15, 2020, 09:57:10 AM
I dig this idea for the same reason as 7DV. Here's a possible problem: we are asking for the staff to open up the elite forces of each open clan that has one. Or at least a few of them. I'm pretty sure the staff only wants one to be opened based on the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread and I feel like it's going to be open for storytelling reasons rather than from us asking for one to be open. Which I'm happy for.

ETA: That elite force could just be the Sun Legions not like the Oashi Elite.

Yeah, true. This idea certainly would have been more prevalent back when you had all of the Northern/Southern clans open.

I suppose sitting out much longer isn't required at this stage of a pending lock.

Staff have zero issue with a topic being discussed. Go nuts. Will it be implemented? Likely not. Will that change some time, somewhere down the road? Who knows. This game has constantly changed, so what's the point in saying never?

Meanwhile,

Triste. Knock it off. Stop the bad faith points, don't get on a soap box to preach at your fellow players because you happen to have a similar stance as staff. Do not call people monsters for pointing out your bad faith arguments. Take a breath - let people talk.

Slip/Addict/whoever else: If a post is bothersome, bad faith, etc - skip it. Carry on. It doesn't require direct confrontation or we end up with thread locks on good discussion, which is what is about to happen here. If it's a direct insult, inflammatory, baiting, etc. - hit the report button. I have no issue in handing out bans until the rules are followed.

Alright, if we're humoring this idea, I want people to be able to allocate any rank rewarded points flexibly. House Tor might have people specialized in scouting, or calvalry/riding, or dueling and bodyguarding. People should be able to realize their character concepts rather than having them stifled by a flat boost. Roleplay first, always, this isn't a soapbox, it's what the game is about!

Last post for real, now that Shabago has made another statement on this. And thanks again for your stated position for the direction of the game at the moment, I know others agree.

Specialization would work if there is a story-related reason; in which based on the current IC events, there is a reason, but again, I think the staff is opening just one of those groups. What will they specialize in? Let's just wait for that.

Quote from: Barsook on November 15, 2020, 09:57:10 AM
... we are asking for the staff to open up the elite forces of each open clan that has one ...

I'll make a little note here, too. We have a smaller playerbase than we did a few years ago, but we've also developed a completely different relationship between staff/players than we had back in the day. I like to think we're in a position to grow if we just figure out the formula. And if we could grow again, it would allow a ton of things to reopen.

But in the meantime, what we could do is rotate which clans are open as players ebb and flow from clan to clan. Maybe it could hinge on the lifespan of the leadership of that clan. And if we did that, offering limited time access to this clan or that, then regardless of the fact that Lyskae or Tor isn't currently open, these concepts of how their clan presents their teachings would have cyclical value, when those clans were opened for play.

I love a lot of the ideas that have been proposed throughout this thread. Just a ton of creativity and innovation. I've got to head to work soon, but I hope I can start a little list of various clans, with conceptualized implementations of these ideas, when I get back.

I don't know exactly what you preceive as flexible, Triste, but if it lay within the skills that were part of the House's specializations, that's not a bad idea.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 15, 2020, 11:02:58 AM

Quote from: Barsook on November 15, 2020, 09:57:10 AM
... we are asking for the staff to open up the elite forces of each open clan that has one ...

I'll make a little note here, too. We have a smaller playerbase than we did a few years ago, but we've also developed a completely different relationship between staff/players than we had back in the day. I like to think we're in a position to grow if we just figure out the formula. And if we could grow again, it would allow a ton of things to reopen.

I forgot that we are smaller now.

Quote
But in the meantime, what we could do is rotate which clans are open as players ebb and flow from clan to clan. Maybe it could hinge on the lifespan of the leadership of that clan. And if we did that, offering limited time access to this clan or that, then regardless of the fact that Lyskae or Tor isn't currently open, these concepts of how their clan presents their teachings would have cyclical value, when those clans were opened for play.

Rotation is might what be the best solution for at least the elite forces of the clans. It would allow that specialization and exploration of said specializations. It will also allow us to explore more of the Nine histories and create new ones.

I like the idea of rotated clan openings as well to keep specialized clans seeming special, at least unless and until we have a playerbase to support them all being open at once.

I also think a thread like this can be useful as a kind of public service announcement to the community, where we remind one another of some of the documented foundations of the gameworld that can sometimes get eclipsed by the coded realities.

Just like we remind players that magickers are generally treated with suspicion/fear/distrust, it can be helpful to just have a conversation like this remind players of the specialties of certain niche clans.  If your PC encounters a Tor Academy instructor or an Atrium teacher, you can be reminded to RP with them as if they are a master of their arena.  And if their RP doesn't reflect their clan's documented mastery/specialty, it could be that their PC is a misfit/outcast/neophyte in their clan and can be judged as a unique individual rather than a representative sampling of their organization. 

It's helpful to me to hear from people who have played in other groups that felt a disconnect between how the group is described in documentation and how the group is treated (usually because of coded realities) in game.  I think the Atrium is an interesting case study because its issues have so little to do with combat.

I am looking forward to 7DV's list of clans and suggested reputation boosters.

Ignoring other context, I'm going to say I'm against the implementation of small cap increases to skills, though I'm in favor of the overarching goals of making clans distinctive with coded benefits.

For my reasoning consider two scenarios:

Scenario A: Staff implements the idea as stated and gives a small bonus to the cap of skills for training within a given clan.
Scenario B: Staff gets lazy and just claims that they increased the cap for certain clans without actually doing it.

My issue is that there is no plausible way for a player to tell the difference between the real improvement and the placebo improvement. This has been well established with long term players making claims that they're "absolutely sure" some coded aspect is in the game after years of testing, when in fact it wasn't. A small increase to the cap of a skill is almost impossible to discern for a number of reasons. One is that most players will never cap a lot of their skills anyways. This is doubly true in combat clans with poor access to training options. A second is that the mathematical difference between a 80 and an 85 is very small for our purposes, much smaller than a difference between a 20 and a 25 (which is the sorts of +5's that most players are used to dealing with for combat skills). Without extensive testing using high end statistical methods you just won't be able to tell the difference between an 80 and an 85, and even if you desire to do those tests you'll probably never have a character that can get to the point of being able to perform them.

Within the game those small cap increases just don't matter. You could replace them with a placebo and no one would ever know.

That said, I am in favor of making clans distinct in their specialties through code, it's just that this particular method wouldn't work to do that.

Quote from: Narf on November 15, 2020, 01:59:30 PM


Scenario B: Staff gets lazy and just claims that they increased the cap for certain clans without actually doing it.

100% behind. Everybody in the clan would train that skill harder then any other, convinced of their gains.  Thus leading the clan to be better at the skill. :)

Muhahaha.*

*You've been warned.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 16, 2020, 08:49:58 PM
Muhahaha.*

*You've been warned.

With no reference, I don't like this post. Clarify yourself! LOL

No, seriously, sorry guys. I'm posting this from work. I haven't had time to contribute. Sorry. ASAP,  I'll be in here.

I don't know if this was said but is the request for coded bonuses via code a way to help causal clanned players? Either way, I still I'm not the boat of the idea and would rather see specialization and rotation of clans.

To any of the staff that is following this: may we have your feedback on what was suggested?

Quote from: Jihelu on November 04, 2020, 08:40:40 AM
I do think it would be nifty if certain clans had skills you could learn with time in the clan + constant use. Being in X clan and attempting Y skill gives you a chance of branching it.

I wouldn't make it as hard as branching a language, which fucking sucks, but decently hard. Easier with time.

It's hard to rough circle on the Byn without guard and rescue guys please agree ;.;

I think that stuff more on these lines should be on offer, but might require either staff-support or coded leadership support. I'm all for things that help expand characters over time and encourage depth and engagement in play. You could even think up of high-end clan specific skills/perks that would be sort of end game / prestige goals for the more select clans.

Membership in Salarr as a hunter for a time, say, might open you up a weaponcrafting skill as a perk after a few years.

You've been a guard for the Arm for 3 years and are the chief criminal nabber? Well - here's a slight boost to your subdue skill. You surveil people from the rooftops? Here's a slight scan bump.

You're a member of the Tor Academy? Excellent - after your successful graduation you get <x> points in hitting people with swords and a RP note that reminds staff if you are trying some RP oratory command efforts on the desert battle arena.

I'm working on this list today in Notepad, since I finally have the time, and this is a big job. I'll try to have it up tonight or early tomorrow. Obviously, it's not at all something I think is a finale, but rather, a encompassing example of of a possibility. It's not to end the discussion, but rather to cast a good mold to be reshaped and argued over and whatnot ... you know how I do.

Quote from: Spider on November 12, 2020, 11:55:55 PM
Gain access to muls, magickers, and sorcerers through long term play and trust is okay, but gain a skill, or a bump to a skill, through long term play and trust in a clan is roleplay stiflingly unfair?    What a joke.

This is particularly pithy.

We have loads of people complaining about why the cities and big sponsored clans are always lacking in interested players and in filling leadership roles, or even in just playing 'mundanes'.

Yet I wonder if it's because the ceiling of achievement or potential feels stilted. Everyone looking to do something 'special' is pushing themselves to sponsored roles or karma bumped stuff. Sure, you can be a long lived warrior in whichever clan you choose. A militia sergeant/lieutenant getting +5 to subdue or +10 to scan is not going to make them suddenly broken or able to demolish people. Their crim-immunity, relationship to powerful PCs, and every other thing in their kit is going to 99% of whatever they try to do anyway. Like - the destructive scale potential is just so vastly different compared to someone apping in a fire mage, or something.

It's the ceiling, that's why it feels like these roles are untouchable and they live for years on end in real life. A typical life cycle of a character should be roughly in 3 months to year and half in real life years. That seems to not happen to these roles, at least the non-Byn sarge ones.

How about a different approach, based on cultivating unique identities for clans in game that aren't just some random character modification.

T'zai Byn:  Food's shit, shit's shit, but at least you always have a sparring partner.  Add NPCs that can be 'called on' if no one else is in the training hall.  Its not that the Byn cares if you live or die, its that the Byn does make more money on successful contracts, which means *someone* has to live.  And its not like you'll always get a good sparring partner.  Some times you'll be the teacher.

Oash:  You're a fucking gemmed.  This does mean however, if you're in good graces and sufficiently proven, or just have curried enough favor, that NPCs can be asked to cast certain spells on or for you.

Tor:  The Lady Tor or the Silver will teach you something new.  Assuming you aren't a screwup to the Tor name, every ig month or so you get a lesson about how to really kick ass in a fight an be an elite soldier.  This leads you down the path of becoming a Red and using one of Tor's unique fighting styles(claw or stinger).

Arm:  Already have some perks like this.  But maybe do a passing uptweak to make everything interesting to use.

Yada, yada, so on and so forth.

Quote from: Kryos on November 22, 2020, 06:57:15 PM
How about a different approach, based on cultivating unique identities for clans in game that aren't just some random character modification.

T'zai Byn:  Food's shit, shit's shit, but at least you always have a sparring partner.  Add NPCs that can be 'called on' if no one else is in the training hall.  Its not that the Byn cares if you live or die, its that the Byn does make more money on successful contracts, which means *someone* has to live.  And its not like you'll always get a good sparring partner.  Some times you'll be the teacher.

Oash:  You're a fucking gemmed.  This does mean however, if you're in good graces and sufficiently proven, or just have curried enough favor, that NPCs can be asked to cast certain spells on or for you.

Tor:  The Lady Tor or the Silver will teach you something new.  Assuming you aren't a screwup to the Tor name, every ig month or so you get a lesson about how to really kick ass in a fight an be an elite soldier.  This leads you down the path of becoming a Red and using one of Tor's unique fighting styles(claw or stinger).

Arm:  Already have some perks like this.  But maybe do a passing uptweak to make everything interesting to use.

Yada, yada, so on and so forth.

Unclanned and Clanned Criminals: get access to more than an unescapable jail cell when they are arrested, similar to an idea CodeMaster posted (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56084.msg1052639.html#msg1052639) in another thread, enhancing criminal playability and roleplay. Maybe make the escape option accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use. Well, now it will have an incredibly great and fitting use!

_{The pain of a true neutral alignment is when you notice things are not balanced you must speak up.}

Quote from: triste on November 23, 2020, 08:35:51 AM
Unclanned and Clanned Criminals: get access to more than an unescapable jail cell when they are arrested, similar to an idea CodeMaster posted (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56084.msg1052639.html#msg1052639) in another thread, enhancing criminal playability and roleplay. Maybe make the escape option accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use. Well, now it will have an incredibly great and fitting use!

_{The pain of a true neutral alignment is when you notice things are not balanced you must speak up.}

Anecdotally speaking, one of the code bonuses a 'rinthi Guild should have is a way to get people out of jail before a Templar decides to pump them for information. And by "Out of Jail" I mean "assassinate their spice smuggler because they got caught and could ruin the whole situation".

Unfortunately, PCs do not go to jail by NPC means in most cases, so you'd be sneaking into a jail cell with an active PC Templar. But what a cool "code bonus" to be able to sneak in/out of city jails.

Quote from: Riev on November 23, 2020, 09:02:11 AM

Quote from: triste on November 23, 2020, 08:35:51 AM
Unclanned and Clanned Criminals: get access to more than an unescapable jail cell when they are arrested, similar to an idea CodeMaster posted (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56084.msg1052639.html#msg1052639) in another thread, enhancing criminal playability and roleplay. Maybe make the escape option accessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use. Well, now it will have an incredibly great and fitting use!

_{The pain of a true neutral alignment is when you notice things are not balanced you must speak up.}

Anecdotally speaking, one of the code bonuses a 'rinthi Guild should have is a way to get people out of jail before a Templar decides to pump them for information. And by "Out of Jail" I mean "assassinate their spice smuggler because they got caught and could ruin the whole situation".

Unfortunately, PCs do not go to jail by NPC means in most cases, so you'd be sneaking into a jail cell with an active PC Templar. But what a cool "code bonus" to be able to sneak in/out of city jails.

I think jail cell scenes are currently so brief and truncated [read, end fatally] because the current jail cell code is... not very stimulating. I remember when I first played Armageddon more than a decade ago [when I was too young for it, and played briefly], Templars were leaving me in jail cells RL days until they had time to talk to my trifling self. And I don't know, people were more patient with it and less PK happy. Now we have people posting about wanting to shorten the quit die timer. The game is naturally evolving in a certain direction, and that's fine. But if we don't address the situation here, well... CodeMaster laid it out better than me, just read what I linked.

Depending on how you classify it, roughly a third of the game's main mundane guilds are crime focused. Under the old guild classifications (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Guilds) fully half were criminal. I just wanted to make sure the discussion here reflected these guilds and character concepts with this interjection at least in a proportion of... one out of ten or so of the bullets mentioned..

There's also that great post by Nyr mentioning Cops and Robbers (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48430.msg856641.html#msg856641), it's just about gameplay and balance. I am not asking for fairness in a real-world values contaminating Zalanthas sense, I like how Riev just elaborated on the idea because it's about keeping things gritty and unfair but interesting or "balanced" from a plot and gameplay perspective.

Quoteaccessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use.

Bet it gets real popular when we remove key .  ;D

Quote from: Shabago on November 23, 2020, 06:24:50 PM

Quoteaccessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use.

Bet it gets real popular when we remove key .  ;D

Why do you hate me? ._.

Quote from: HortaCulture on November 23, 2020, 08:13:13 PM

Quote from: Shabago on November 23, 2020, 06:24:50 PM

Quoteaccessible only with the search skill, as people often lament the skill doesn't have much use.

Bet it gets real popular when we remove key .  ;D

Why do you hate me? ._.

I feel like most people only use key . to look through packed bags, chests and rooms for stuff they already have in the open. Which search doesn't help with anyway.  It's not key . that is broken, it's search (and the containers that show up when someone does key .).

I wasnt aware key . actually revealed hidden exits.  I know you can sometimes locate a hidden exit by typing an exact keyword (or by typing close <hiddenexitkeyword> to confirm it's there. But for that, you need to know an actual hidden exit's name.


Only way that issue can be solved is if the keywords are different for everyone and search identifies it, or something similarly clunky.

All of this is an amusing derail! I want to get back to the topic at hand.

In an RPI, the main metric of a successful system is roleplay. Is awesome roleplay happening? If so, great! The game is doing well.

Invisible skill boosts can just as likely hurt roleplay as help it. I want to make sure we don't just brainstorm a bunch of stat bumps for military organizations that would make life absolutely miserable for people roleplaying in a rebel/outlaw organization, for instance.

In the past players have mentioned a lack of broader conflict and a dissatisfying abundance of more trifling/petty matters in politics. I am not sure I want to operate in a system where members of the Anime Club Oashi Circle* get student body funds for their pizza parties a stat boost to spell casting while the punk/goth kids who are too cool for an after school club and are starting a band instead non-Oash gemmed of a given temple get zilch. One group of people here might be objectively driving better plots at a given moment, one group of people might be doing more IG and involving more people, one group of people here might objectively have more talent, yet, for no reason besides formality, be deprived of perks while the other people get perks just because someone logged in, initiated them into a clan, and never logged in again. I want tension to arise from wide ranging politics, not petty in-fighting over who gets free pizza from the school district better stat boosts.

I brought up CodeMaster's post as I think it echoes a good point a lot of people like Riev and Delirium have raised here: if the mechanism is something that can be interacted with [instead of an invisible, unearned stat boost], the results in terms of roleplay are generally better.

I wanted to expand and add a point today that when we brainstorm, please try to think of all the people left out when you propose a stat boost, and really consider if realistically those groups should be deprived. I don't want valuable appendages to be starved of blood and oxygen and just fall off because we were gung-ho about engorging other organs.

* I chose Oash as a random example because it came up earlier, much respect to anyone who has RPed here and the staff who oversee it, I just picked Oash and randomly compared it to an Anime Club for humor™. I want to be exceedingly clear: Oash and its players now and past are great, I just worry about what Oash + Stat Boosts might be like.

Quote from: triste on November 24, 2020, 12:05:46 AM
Invisible skill boosts can just as likely hurt roleplay as help it. I want to make sure we don't just brainstorm a bunch of stat bumps for military organizations that would make life absolutely miserable for people roleplaying in a rebel/outlaw organization, for instance.

You've said stat boosts like 6 times in your post and maybe 25+ times in this whole thread. I don't think anyone is advocating for stat boosts.

All that's being discussed is a potential benefit and reward for membership and long-term play in a clan. For clans, this is potentially code-able and more regulated, but what I have in my mind is more of like the system that was in use for templars (in that part of the progression is incrementally rewarded). A +5 or +10 skill cap boost to a utility skill for a 30-40 days played / long lived character is not going to destroy the game or ruin independents' lives. but might make that person playing the AoD lieutenant really invested and proud of their char's achievements. Heck, a +5-10 bump to the actual weapon skill progress over the course of say, a Tor Silver Scorpion's career as they train wouldn't be gamebreaking, as this just approximates the bonuses people can jump in game with already for sponsored roles.

Things that help people roleplay and further their characters are great to explore. Players will relax and focus on actual RP if they're able to jump through less hoops to try and progress their character.

You know what's best about that? Is that it doesn't have to be limited to clans. A player-made organization can aspire to having similar perks, of course, and any long-term established character might be able to achieve something like it too. A rogue drovian who lives and watches the broken tower for the past five in game years? Maybe they get a scan cap increase. This is of course reliant on storytellers to actually help build and progress the story that's going, though.

Little perks and flavor bumps only serve to diversify and improve things, and it doesn't stomp on other people. It's not a zero sum limited fun scenario.

Quote from: Bogre on November 24, 2020, 11:03:37 AM
You know what's best about that? Is that it doesn't have to be limited to clans

This is all you had to say to get me aboard.

This, of course, is also basically antithetical to the original post. We've gone from a direct proposal for clan-specific stat boosts, to a proposal for clan-specific something-boosts, to...

(https://i.imgflip.com/4nokjp.jpg)

Well, not quite. You're proposing a system where everyone who rightfully earns a skill bump, clan or not, gets a skill bump. Great! That's exactly the system we have today.

Automated solutions benefit from being able to be modeled. Let's say House Δ gives a boost to Skill Φ. House Δ is designed with characters of guild Σ in mind, as characters with guild Σ are very competent in skills related to the house, like Skill Φ. But unfortunately for players in guild Σ, they are so skilled with Skill Φ that they are already maxxed out and House Δ's skill boost does nothing for them. Every single player with a guild Σ character in House Δ now has to submit a request to have a different tweak. Maybe they aren't even requesting this for min-maxxing reasons but purely for roleplay reasons -- their character has spent years practicing Skill B, not Skill Φ, and they want an appropriate boost. But no, sadly Staff have to say, you already got a boost associated with your rank, that wouldn't be fair to other players! Or, Staff might say, but you asked for a boost to Skill Φ on the forums specifically, we just gave you what you want!

But why fuss with all this -- maybe just automate a system that works for all concepts.

The thing I'd like to figure out is..

How can we automate this, without having to use the request tool and rely on staff to be online to set the character's file.


If we tie it to rank, there's a couple questions to be asked:
#1 - How does the character progress in a clans rank?
#2 - If no character is at this rank currently, how do the character acquire it?

Answers:
#1 - Characters progress in rank using the 'promote' command from another character who has the "leader" flag within the clan.  You can only promote other characters to the rank you currently are, or below.
example:  If you're rank 3 - Sergeant, you can promote someone to rank 2 - Corporal, and you can promote someone to rank 3 - Sergeant, but you cannot promote someone to rank 4 - Lieutenant.
#2 - If no player characters are a rank above you, then the only way to be promoted is to interact with an NPC (or Immortal Avatar) and have that NPC/Immortal promote you to a rank higher than yourself.  Obviously, this requires immortal intervention.


So, it doesn't seem like it can be automated 100%, we have to rely on immortal intervention or immortal oversight to make sure higher-end promotions can happen and are available.


But, once the rank is achieved, then you can push out automated aspects, such as entrance to new areas that are "guarded" unless you are of a certain rank, which lead to NPC sellers / tattooists who may only have items available for those of a certain rank.

I am really not convinced rank is the right mechanism for this, as it flatly doesn't work for the majority of character concepts.

I have a one-size fits all solution for not only this thread and the karma regen thread as well. If you allow players to spend karma on their living characters, up to their karma cap, for small benefits like skill bumps or new skills, you fix both problems in both threads for all character concepts.
- People complain that there is no incentive to play a mundane while your karma regenerates. If you have a system where people can invest in a mundane they are actively playing, they won't be tempted to store that mundane as soon as their karma regens.
- People complain that mundane focused guilds like Tor are depopulated for this reason. See point above -- let people choose their own skill bumps on a mundane and people will play mundanes, and join the clans that roleplay leads them to join.
- People complain that clans don't offer specialization or perks reflective of the clan's description. However, a flat boost per rank wouldn't reflect the nuance in these docs, and letting players select is better. The T'zai Byn shouldn't give a flat boost to "rescue" because it is known for "rough circle" because it's equally known for employing assassins who don't want to rescue anyone.

It also fixes future problems that people aren't extrapolating or predicting here. I went enough into those less than ideal outcomes in previous replies.

The work involved in implementing a system like this might suck at first, but it opens the door to more features like what people are asking for in this clan boost thread. But why not implement the two birds with one stone fix first? It's fair to new players as well because once they earn karma, they can spend it right away on their living PCs (I've heard a few players mention regret over storing over the ebullience of getting new karma). It's just a win win.

I enjoy the idea of skill bumps/gains for ranks as that both typically amounts to both time and RP to get there. Many strive for quite a long time to just become a Sergeant or many don't want to even rise to that position (Which can often cause the role calls rather than promoting from within) because of the demands. Getting something out of those demands to add incentive is appealing. It doesn't have to be major in any way and I would also suggest that it can only be received by getting there through play, not via role call for that role.

I will say I am against using karma for bumps while in play as that will further issues that exist today even if possibly preventing a couple others. We already have a special app method on start of play for this purpose of bumps. What a method like this would allow, without many more preventative measures, is the ability to get a bunch of gains without even having to RP and just living a long time making many further avoid dangerous situations until they are much, much further along to avoid losing their character. Even then, many would likely be apt to avoid scenarios to avoid losing eight karma points worth of them gainz. This option is further circling a whole other problem and making new ones rather than fixing the issue of people not wanting to play what they may not want to play.

I get where you guys are coming from, but what's the RP justification? I still just see meta or non-roleplay justification, EG, "I want a perk to being a Sergeant because otherwise it's a thankless job OOCly." Great, I understand your desire for that feeling of being rewarded and appreciated, but how does it help roleplay at all?

What this does is... again, just make roleplay less great for everyone else, because for every Sergeant who will be thankful for this perk, you'll have a clan with no active Sergeant but being led by a de facto Sergeant who can't be the Sergeant due to race restrictions or what have you (I've been in this position more than once). This person stonewalled out of leadership might be the roughest, toughest leader you've ever seen, holding the whole clan together for months, but enjoys none of these arbitrarily rank-assigned perks.

Just echoing Delirium, Riev, etc -- if you materialize the perks in game rather than having this reality defying concept that "rank => special powers" results will be better.

To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

Quote from: Dan on November 24, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

100% on board with this. TOOT TOOT sign me up, I'm on this train. Sheesh, I'll start updating my guild picker to pretend a system like this exists because oh boy do I want it.

I've seen a bunch of ideas in this thread, and just want to throw mine into the hat.
Instead of a flat skill boost, what if clan members got a boost to specific skills based on the number of clan members or others with that skill in the room.

1 Tor scorpion in the room, just as good as anyone else at guarding.
5 Tor scorpions in the room and you have a nearly unbeatable unit as they cover for each others flaws and weaknesses in protecting their ward.

I don't even have a problem with this training lasting past them leaving the clan. A former Byn Trooper who happens to be riding with the Byn can get the bonus, because they've had the Byn training and know how to work with the others.

Probably not the easiest thing to code, but as a bonus it could be used with creatures/npcs that fight in groups or packs.

Quote from: triste on November 24, 2020, 05:41:18 PM

Quote from: Dan on November 24, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

100% on board with this. TOOT TOOT sign me up, I'm on this train. Sheesh, I'll start updating my guild picker to pretend a system like this exists because oh boy do I want it.

I dig this. Give us more reason to use karma!

Quote from: triste on November 24, 2020, 11:30:05 AM


Well, not quite. You're proposing a system where everyone who rightfully earns a skill bump, clan or not, gets a skill bump. Great! That's exactly the system we have today.

Not really - I think our current system is more of 'if you app into a special app role, you get a skill bump' or maybe rarely the 2% of people who 'submit a lot of logs, get a small skill boost'. Goal would be to have characters progress with earned roleplay and progress, though.

Tying it to karma I think just serves to bump players or characters who spend karma already and start out ahead. Having no-karma characters get perks at a slightly higher rate would be better.

Say:
0-1 Karma char: Slight bump at 3 months played.
2 Karma: Eligible for bump at 4 months.
3 Karma char: Eligible for bump at 6 months.

There's a number of ways to think about optimizing or automating a system like that. Otherwise, having it as prestige to senior clan membership or long-term indie play on a case by case basis is fine.

Quote from: Dan on November 24, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
To be honest, I am still not a fan of many of these suggestions. I just don't think invisible bumps to skills, stats or abilities makes any sense based on clan affiliation.

I'd much rather see a more diverse 'perk' system to diversify characters on an individual basis rather than a collective clan-based one on the front-end of character creation and then at long-lived intervals.

• You want to not take a penalty for being ganged up on in combat? That's a three karma no-gang perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).



• You want to regenerate stamina regardless of sitting, standing, etc. That's a one karma perk which can only be applied to x, y, z classes and must be explained in your background (available at character generation only).


• You want to be able to throw an extra room of distance? That's a two karma perk which can only be applied to x, y races with master throw (available to current character only).

Now, once you have regenerated your karma sufficiently and can justify why you might be eligible for an additional perk over a long enough play period, you can submit justification to the staff for another one or two.  I think the addition of various beneficial perks could add diversity to characters based on their individual experiences, rather then the clan-based allegiances.  I'm sure we could come up with a laundry list of beneficial perks like this which could be selected for karma as it accumulates (limit of whatever number of perks, or total of like 5 spent karma or something).

It's a nice thing that's been discussed a lot of times before specifically in reference to character diversification and creation.  Unfortunately, that's not really what this thread is about and it's kind of derailed.  This thread was specifically about clans.  It doesn't have to be skill bumps (that largely started because the Tors saw a chance to talk about the Tor problem.  It's not a small problem.  It's -the- problem that you are always fighting as a Tor noble), but it should remain oriented towards 'What coded benefits make sense for clans?'

It's kind of important.  Not because we never talk about what clans need, but because we rarely specifically orient it around coded solutions that would make sense, as opposed to ye old boons of olde.  There is fairly consistent talk about the lack of appeal of clans, how they don't have much to offer, and this thread is an excellent place for clan-oriented ideas to get tossed around.

It's not about the indies.  If there were a mass migration away from independent play to shove into clans, we'd either have overtuned the clans, or we'd need to show indies love.  It's not about equality across characters.  It's not even about characters.  It's about clans, and what benefits we can have them grant to those within beyond the things that have, ultimately, been either gotten rid of, or made far less valuable.

Quote100% on board with this. TOOT TOOT sign me up, I'm on this train. Sheesh, I'll start updating my guild picker to pretend a system like this exists because oh boy do I want it.

You confuse me.  You argue for pages about how boons shouldn't be given based off of clans because of no roleplay involved, leading to constant debate about how clan roleplay -is- the roleplay...but you jump right on to boons that come from spending karma.  I'm guessing that you're going to say something about the roleplay leading up to spending the karma, or the background...but those are exactly what we said came from the clan role as well.

Armaddict, much respect. I will only respond to your direct reply to me since I am walking on a thin rope here with staff.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 25, 2020, 12:38:28 AM
You confuse me.

Anyone arguing that rank should confer a skill boost has a world view divorced from reality insofar as it can be seen:

Joan of Arc was a peasant girl who came to lead an army in a war by the sheer strength of her message.

Napoleon was a leader who conquered masses of modern Europe because he led by living in the trenches with his soldiers.

Julius Caesar let people take credit for his victories as a consul for years knowing his inherit merit would get him his rightful reign.

I am being succinct because I am on a tight rope -- but for engaging, exciting roleplay, we need a game world where merit begets rank, and not some inverse situation that is a perversion of reality.

Rank alone is the wrong metric for bonuses because it doesn't reflect time spent in a clan or learned IC knowledge.  I've had a fairly new trooper (maybe 5 days played?) promoted to Sergeant because well, everyone above me died.  I've also seen PC leaders hand out 2 promotions to PCs in the span of an IC year or two.  Nothing wrong with either of those examples but why would a PC suddenly get a skill bump just because the people above them died or their boss liked them and fast tracked promotions?

I like the ideas of more ways to spend karma on mundanes though I think it might feel a little lame to new players.

Quote from: Armaddict link=topic=56311.msg1054574#msg1054574
It's about clans, and what benefits we can have them grant to those within beyond the things that have, ultimately, been either gotten rid of, or made far less valuable.

From my perspective clans already receive a major bonus through regular pay, lack of needing to even care about food and water anymore, political and martial backing through other clan mates, shelter and consistent training opportunities.  I'm probably missing a few, but that's my point.  These benefits make sense to me and they are fairly substantial when compounded together.

What doesn't make sense to me is adding some other boon to a player for being in clan X, simply for enlisting and sticking around a while.  It does not sync with the reality of how you have a billion possible motivations, levels of involvement, and actions of the characters in these differing clans.  People don't learn effectively by proximity alone, and if Clan X is supposed to excel at guarding then the individual characters should practice that and they will then be better than everyone else in game who don't do that as a regular activity.

Quote...it should remain oriented towards 'What coded benefits make sense for clans?'

I think we already satisfy this objective realistically with my first point.

Quote from: Dan on November 25, 2020, 09:48:20 AM

Quote from: Armaddict link=topic=56311.msg1054574#msg1054574
It's about clans, and what benefits we can have them grant to those within beyond the things that have, ultimately, been either gotten rid of, or made far less valuable.

From my perspective clans already receive a major bonus through regular pay, lack of needing to even care about food and water anymore, political and martial backing through other clan mates, shelter and consistent training opportunities.  I'm probably missing a few, but that's my point.  These benefits make sense to me and they are fairly substantial when compounded together.

What doesn't make sense to me is adding some other boon to a player for being in clan X, simply for enlisting and sticking around a while.  It does not sync with the reality of how you have a billion possible motivations, levels of involvement, and actions of the characters in these differing clans.  People don't learn effectively by proximity alone, and if Clan X is supposed to excel at guarding then the individual characters should practice that and they will then be better than everyone else in game who don't do that as a regular activity.

Quote...it should remain oriented towards 'What coded benefits make sense for clans?'

I think we already satisfy this objective realistically with my first point.

Food, water, political power...those are exactly the things that I said have apparently lost value.  As noted in parts of the Allanak thread and a few other clan threads over the past little while, people are not very into clans, with a major component of that being that they don't offer much, particularly in exchange for the limitations they usually (and sensibly) place on the character.

Hunting is easier and less risky than it's ever been before.  Water costs coin, but coin is relatively easy to the point that most people also have their own apartments (which also covers personal storage space, another thing that used to be a big boon of joining clans even if it was just for a footlocker).  Political power is not exactly measurable but the prevalence of minion intrigue is down due to clan 'half closures', which makes for less means of growing that power and less opportunity to use it.

'Rank' is being tossed around here, and I'm not certain I really understand it, because you guys make it sound like I'm conferring a journeyman level up to master level bonus but only for lieutenants.  Small bonuses, well selected, are in the same arena as racial stat bonuses.  Class bonuses.  The only difference is that a clan bonus doesn't kick in until you actually settle into a clan culture.  As argued in the 3-4 straight pages on the topic, it demonstrates the clan culture and mentality about different roles of their clan members and what's expected of them.

For example:  A Samurai vs a Spartan.  They both begin rigorous training at a young age.  They both maintain fitness.  They both take some time to start getting into the meat of their methods and emphasis.  The culture surrounding them and the role they're expected to fill by those in the same culture shape the way they emphasize and the way they work.  Can this be emphasized by play alone?  By different methods of training?  Certainly.  Does the culture surrounding them provide its own contribution?  Also certainly.  And the fact is that the code's mechanics make for only using code to emphasize it often coming up short--as noted, the elite reach 'elite' status much more rarely, and cultural styles even outside of clans are often not reinforced by what actually comes to be.

There were ideas to give clans different methods of training, for the simple reason that some don't have access to the 'constant influx of activity' that other clans do.  Those were all good ideas.  The only reason I keep on talking about this one in particular is because whenever people argue about it, the arguments are generally either in bad faith or rejecting key shortcomings of the game.  In this case...yeah, it would be great if most Tor Scorpions hit a level that made most other military forces in awe of their teamwork and discipline and skill as a unit.  But they don't.  It's a notable exception when their soldiers get to that level precisely because the code rewards Byn-systems, not Tor-systems.  Hence...why people want to address that point.

Getting through the recruit period of a clan to its point of 'career mode' is where you've been around long enough to start seeing how things are expected from you, and gotten the emphasis through the time you've spent with your peers.  Funnily, that addresses your point of how people don't learn by proximity -alone-.  It isn't alone.  It's by proximity to all their duties, exposures, training...and yes, that's right, the roleplay...of an entire clan's purpose.

I don't see how that interferes with any other motivations or character nuances or diversity.  It doesn't force you to do anything.  It doesn't tell you can't do anything else.  It just reinforces a group culture's influence on character emphasis and role, and makes a small reflection on that in the character's ability to act in that role.

More specifically:

QuoteWhat doesn't make sense to me is adding some other boon to a player for being in clan X, simply for enlisting and sticking around a while.

I believe it is more meaningful, and more sensible, and of greater worth...than a different idea that says you should be able to put something in your background and get a far larger boon than anyone suggested in this thread for it.  That was your idea.  Basing it on clan is addressing certain problems instead of just a desire for features, and confers far less of an advantage to any character...but it does make clan members acting together more capable at doing certain tasks in certain ways than they would be through their often-spotty training regimes due to less players (again, often because code supports Byn-style, not house-style, training).

QuoteJoan of Arc was a peasant girl who came to lead an army in a war by the sheer strength of her message.

Napoleon was a leader who conquered masses of modern Europe because he led by living in the trenches with his soldiers.

Julius Caesar let people take credit for his victories as a consul for years knowing his inherit merit would get him his rightful reign.

I appreciate the sentiment, but none of those are talking about clan culture, style, role, or ability.  You're talking about qualities of leadership, and how leaders come from humble or different beginnings.  I'm talking about how Joan of Arc led an army with french soldiers who fought in certain ways so that when she made an order, they already knew their method of carrying it out.  I'm talking about Napolean saying 'form ranks and prepare for cannon bombardment before advance' knowing just a little better than their adversary how this battleplan would play out, because their entire method of war had evolved around it.  I'm talking about Julius Caesar having decades of Roman Army methodology at his disposal, so that the -moment- someone enlisted, they started being grilled about using their shield to protect the right side of the soldier to his left, and to fall back directly when wounded so that the man behind him could take his place.

The leaders are not the ones who are focused on.  The tribe, the clan, the army, the group is.  They emphasize certain points, the mere fact you're in the group means you're automatically molded to behave in those ways, right from the beginning, and once you're established as part of that group...it's because you can act in those methods.

Quote
the mere fact you're in the group means you're automatically molded to behave in those ways

This simply isn't true. One of Joan of Arc's most famous quotes was something like "I prefer to lead with the banner rather than the sword." Napoleon was... tiny. Julius Caesar was stabbed to death, insta-gibbed PvP killed. He probs didn't get a single dodge in. So why are we asking for a cartoonish system where Joan of Arc would get +5 to her slashing skill cap, Napoleon would get +10 to his bash skill cap, and Caesar would get +10 to dodge and parry because "he's a military leader and stuff." Why are we asking for cartoonish bumps to parry, bash, dodge, whatever for people in military organizations when the reality is rank didn't and doesn't magically give people "skill boosts."

I care about realistic and riveting plots and that's why I can't. Stop. Posting here. But if people like me and Dan end up being vastly outnumbered in our stance c'est la vie.

Here is one more anecdote and food for thought, briefly.

My dad was an intelligence officer during Vietnam. He also got a bunch of medals as a Marines marksman. He taught me to shoot a gun starting when I was eight years old. I am an extremely good shot with a gun, every time I go shooting people ask to take down my targets and examine them because I punch out holes around the bullseye. Every time I do a shooting game at a theme park, I get the high score for that week or month or however long it is between resets. It's stupid but true.

It's equally valid for me to have a "skill boost to shooting" as it was for my father to get that skill boost from his time in the Marines. If anything, I would have more of a skill boost because he started me off so young.

The world is full of people like Vasily Zaytsev and Annie Oakley and they are equally impressive and beautiful. I like to see both types of concepts in game.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
...But if people like me and Dan end up being vastly outnumbered in our stance c'est la vie.

It's not about being outnumbered.  It's not about winning.

The intent of https://gdb.armageddon.org is to have a text-based forum in the media of long form essays to convey and discuss ideas.  There is no "most liked post" or "most voted on option in a poll".


To reiterate, this conversation is about coded benefits to characters for being long-term members of clans, for the intent of making long-term investment into a clan more attractive to the playerbase.
Conversations have shifted from having special items that allow for special bonuses, to unlocking different spells or casting echos, to having tattoos that give bonuses, and so on.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
...
My dad was an intelligence officer during Vietnam. He also got a bunch of medals as a Marines marksman. He taught me to shoot a gun starting when I was eight years old. I am an extremely good shot with a gun, every time I go shooting people ask to take down my targets and examine them because I punch out holes around the bullseye. Every time I do a shooting game at a theme park, I get the high score for that week or month or however long it is between resets. It's stupid but true.

It's equally valid for me to have a "skill boost to shooting" as it was for my father to get that skill boost from his time in the Marines. If anything, I would have more of a skill boost because he started me off so young.

This story has nothing to do with being part of a job/group/organization and being in that organization for a long while, and receiving some perk for doing so.  This is a story, I guess, about how character's backgrounds don't match their starting skills, which is a conversation for another thread.

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 02:11:16 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
...
My dad was an intelligence officer during Vietnam. He also got a bunch of medals as a Marines marksman. He taught me to shoot a gun starting when I was eight years old. I am an extremely good shot with a gun, every time I go shooting people ask to take down my targets and examine them because I punch out holes around the bullseye. Every time I do a shooting game at a theme park, I get the high score for that week or month or however long it is between resets. It's stupid but true.

It's equally valid for me to have a "skill boost to shooting" as it was for my father to get that skill boost from his time in the Marines. If anything, I would have more of a skill boost because he started me off so young.

This story has nothing to do with being part of a job/group/organization and being in that organization for a long while, and receiving some perk for doing so.  This is a story, I guess, about how character's backgrounds don't match their starting skills, which is a conversation for another thread.

It's completely on topic. We have a group of people positing that "people get skills as a result of their surrounding circumstances." I am merely reminding people that surrounding circumstances that lead to marksmanship aren't only military organizations as you are positing. Yes, my anecdote shows how people acquire skills outside of formal "job/group/organization" contexts all the time. It is human nature to learn constantly. My counter point is on topic despite what you're saying in bold: I am questioning the very merit doling out "official" skill bumps for "official" jobs and depriving equally valid concepts of the bonuses they deserve as a result of equally valid roleplay.

And we had three or so other people post recently that the notion of rank based skill bumps is fraught, I am just backing up their points. We're all on topic here.

QuoteSo why are we asking for a cartoonish system where Joan of Arc would get +5 to her slashing skill cap, Napoleon would get +10 to his bash skill cap, and Caesar would get +10 to dodge and parry because "he's a military leader and stuff."

We aren't.  That is literally what an entire paragraph talked about.  You are talking about leaders.  I am talking about people in clans, who have been in that clan for some period of time enough to become immersed in how that clan does things.

I am talking about the soldiers of people in Napoleon's clan.  I am talking about the soldiers in Joan of Arc's clan.  I am talking about the soldiers in Caesar's clan.  I am talking about 'Military of Rome' clan.  The 'French Army' clan.  They have strengths, and they have weaknesses, and they have emphasis, and those leaders use those emphasis in how they do things.  Joan of Arc's quote is literally about how she wants to inspire her army, it has nothing to do with how her army fights.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
...And we had three or so other people post recently that the notion of rank based skill bumps is fraught, I am just backing up their points.

Again.   This is not about "winning" or "having the most people voting for the option in the poll".

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
It's completely on topic. We have a group of people positing that "people get skills as a result of their surrounding circumstances." I am merely reminding people that surrounding circumstances that lead to marksmanship aren't only military organizations as you are positing.

The conversation is about people getting perks as a result of their surrounding circumstances... IN A CLAN/JOB role they are currently in.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
Yes, my anecdote shows how people acquire skills outside of formal "job/group/organization" contexts all the time.   It is human nature to learn constantly.

That is true, but the conversation is about being IN A CLAN/JOB role they are currently in.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PMI am questioning the very merit doling out "official" skill bumps for "official" jobs and depriving equally valid concepts of the bonuses they deserve as a result of equally valid roleplay.

Bolded for emphasis.  What?   :o :o :o   Who said anything about depriving equally valid concepts?

Perhaps this should be repeated:

Quote from: Brokkr on November 04, 2020, 04:19:21 PM
What about the gameworld makes you think this should be fair?

Or are you importing RL bias into the game?

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
Yes, my anecdote shows how people acquire skills outside of formal "job/group/organization" contexts all the time.   It is human nature to learn constantly.

That is true, but the conversation is about being IN A CLAN/JOB role they are currently in.

... what if there were a half-elf in the 'rinth who had no "job" job, because see the 'rinth is poor, and doesn't have a lot of "jobs," but it does have gangs. And this 'rinther became really good at sliding their dagger in between peoples' ribs, why you could almost say it was their "job" to shank people...

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PMI am questioning the very merit doling out "official" skill bumps for "official" jobs and depriving equally valid concepts of the bonuses they deserve as a result of equally valid roleplay.

Bolded for emphasis.  What?   :o :o :o   Who said anything about depriving equally valid concepts?

... and what if that half-elf 'rinther happened to innovate in how they sharpened their shanks for back-stabbing, and got some admirers. Started some sort of gang, or knife fighting club, and got a reputation for it. Yes, it's this 'rinther's "job" to do one thing in Zalanthas, and that is survive. Maybe the 'rinther gets rich off their pit fighting club, develops a whole new fighting style. But they can't get any clan perks, because it's not a real "CLAN/JOB," interest in pitfighting dies out, everyone would rather get a "real job" with skill boosts. We no longer have awesome player made RPTs in the 'rinth. The 'rinth is dead under your new system because it doesn't have a whole lot of "real jobs," you see.

It's basic extrapolation. In the Sims, you get perks from your "career ladders" and your "jobs." In Zalanthas, only one thing matters: survival. What the hell is a "job," anyway?

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
Napoleon was... tiny.

Ok slight sidetrack here but no, Napoleon wasn't tiny. The french inch was bigger than the English inch at that time, and adjusting for average heights going back in time, he was of a respectable average height really. There was actually a cartoonist that caricatured him a bunch at the time that did a lot to push the message of him being comically short (mostly with his later works) with basically wartime propoganda, but it wasn't actually reality.


Back to the subject on hand though. I'm honestly still for no perks or bonuses like this, it all sounds like a lot of coding work and there's a ton of things I'd want over this if possible and the same or less work. It's fun to theorize about, but ehhhh I just don't see anything thus far proposed here being a priority, honestly.

Quote from: Eluin on November 25, 2020, 04:12:36 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
Napoleon was... tiny.

Ok slight sidetrack here but no, Napoleon wasn't tiny. The french inch was bigger than the English inch at that time, and adjusting for average heights going back in time, he was of a respectable average height really. There was actually a cartoonist that caricatured him a bunch at the time that did a lot to push the message of him being comically short (mostly with his later works) with basically wartime propoganda, but it wasn't actually reality.


Back to the subject on hand though. I'm honestly still for no perks or bonuses like this, it all sounds like a lot of coding work and there's a ton of things I'd want over this if possible and the same or less work. It's fun to theorize about, but ehhhh I just don't see anything thus far proposed here being a priority, honestly.

Thank you for that correction! Glad it didn't warrant a full page correction, I think my other factoids there are accurate. And yeah, there is nothing wrong with the conclusion of this discussion being that we have a no-op here [which is basically what staff stated]. It's not a contest, but we need everyone to share their opinion so that we have a sense of what the playerbase wants [as accurately as we can measure it]. So thanks for sharing your opinion/insight.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 03:57:17 PM

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
Yes, my anecdote shows how people acquire skills outside of formal "job/group/organization" contexts all the time.   It is human nature to learn constantly.

That is true, but the conversation is about being IN A CLAN/JOB role they are currently in.

... what if there were a half-elf in the 'rinth who had no "job" job, because see the 'rinth is poor, and doesn't have a lot of "jobs," but it does have gangs. And this 'rinther became really good at sliding their dagger in between peoples' ribs, why you could almost say it was their "job" to shank people...

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PMI am questioning the very merit doling out "official" skill bumps for "official" jobs and depriving equally valid concepts of the bonuses they deserve as a result of equally valid roleplay.

Bolded for emphasis.  What?   :o :o :o   Who said anything about depriving equally valid concepts?

... and what if that half-elf 'rinther happened to innovate in how they sharpened their shanks for back-stabbing, and got some admirers. Started some sort of gang, or knife fighting club, and got a reputation for it. Yes, it's this 'rinther's "job" to do one thing in Zalanthas, and that is survive. Maybe the 'rinther gets rich off their pit fighting club, develops a whole new fighting style. But they can't get any clan perks, because it's not a real "CLAN/JOB," interest in pitfighting dies out, everyone would rather get a "real job" with skill boosts. We no longer have awesome player made RPTs in the 'rinth. The 'rinth is dead under your new system because it doesn't have a whole lot of "real jobs," you see.

It's basic extrapolation. In the Sims, you get perks from your "career ladders" and your "jobs." In Zalanthas, only one thing matters: survival. What the hell is a "job," anyway?

Maybe i'm off here, I feel like the concern is that individuals separate from a coded clan are also capable of innovation and unique developments.

The first quote is what I perceive happening when I roll into the game solo. I' an elf in the rinth where there are no 'jobs' so I made sure i'm a miscreant/slipknife or something similar. I put specifics in my background to justify shanking people. Its now my job as this character to shank people. Staff approve my character. The rest of the opportunities are now in my hands as a roleplayer to bring this role to life however I see fit.

The second quote is all in the control of the player to my current game world understanding. You RP, your stats are all now advanced/master, PC players are playing with you because you've generated intrigue. If you've been regularly sending in reports to staff, there's some sort of dialogue going and potentially some support for long-term projects. Maybe not house half-elf of the rinth, shadow masters of serpent backstab style--But staff have in the past and still do as far as I can tell run plot arcs and develop storylines with players that communicate with them and can show evidence of longevity, etc. You might get a skill bump. You may be given decisions in game that lead to or develop skill bumps you did not intend.

I mean i'm pretty sure you can app into the game with a half-elf rinther right now and the only thing in your way of achieving all of that is your own play. There's no barrier stopping that save RP dangers, unless we're considering time as an arguable barrier--It isn't, because clans and individuals would theoretically both be subjected to investments of time.

RP considered, clans are always going to win most arguments save for the preference of the player. Unless there are in-game events and reworks, GMH clans and Noble houses are untouchable and insurmountable to the commoner and their resources. Their resources RP wise come with benefits that don't often, as has been mentioned many times over many pages now, reflect the RP realism or the RP potential they (theoretically) could for a variety of players. This has a lot of variables and many examples have been thrown out to illustrate some of these 'glass ceilings' if you will.

I feel like your insinuation that players desolate or vacate a region of the game because of lack of access to coded skill bumps is a little narrow. I don't have the data to prove the opposite.

As for the necessity or whatever, i'm just grateful for the participation and people that offered the constructive insights for or against. I know no better way for continuous improvement than dialogue.

Quote from: Aruven on November 25, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
I feel like your insinuation that players desolate or vacate a region of the game because of lack of access to coded skill bumps is a little narrow. I don't have the data to prove the opposite.

I just want to briefly say I anticipated this criticism coming up. And I don't have the data either, it's impossible to get data on hypotheticals, so it's impossible to say who is right. But I think the jokes that commonly go around about City Elves as a current game design issue helps us predict the game design issues that clan perks would cause. There's a large camp of people who think C-Elves need more code love, and the response is always, "Regardless of code, people should play City Elves because there are intrinsic roleplay merits to it and if you were a good player you wouldn't let code shape your roleplay decisions." But... shall we look at the stats here then? If we care about data? You might not like how it proves my argument. I am willing to bet hard money City Elves are the least played of the starting races. I for one won't damn the player base as a whole for being rational as they assess coded incentives.

[and whenever this comes up, thank you staff for hearing our valid feedback and working actively on C-Elves to address the issue!]

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 04:30:43 PM

Quote from: Aruven on November 25, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
I feel like your insinuation that players desolate or vacate a region of the game because of lack of access to coded skill bumps is a little narrow. I don't have the data to prove the opposite.

I just want to briefly say I anticipated this criticism coming up. And I don't have the data either, it's impossible to get data on hypotheticals, so it's impossible to say who is right. But I think the jokes that commonly go around about City Elves as a current game design issue helps us predict the game design issues that clan perks would cause. There's a large camp of people who think C-Elves need more code love, and the response is always, "Regardless of code, people should play City Elves because there are intrinsic roleplay merits to it and if you were a good player you wouldn't let code shape your roleplay decisions." But... shall we look at the stats here then? If we care about data? You might not like how it proves my argument. I am willing to bet hard money City Elves are the least played of the starting races. I for one won't damn the player base as a whole for being rational as they assess coded incentives.

[and whenever this comes up, thank you staff for hearing our valid feedback and working actively on C-Elves to address the issue!]

Well lets see here.

You anticipated that making a statement not widely accepted by the audience might have someone comment on it.

You don't have any data (?) BUT you have heard a lot of jokes and hearsay or some such that would lead you to believe there are fundamental flaws with City Elves. You believe this is a relative model to discuss around clan incentives that cause similar game design issues. You feel you are part of a large community of people who share your views on this, and apparently someone has replied that City Elves are still viable RP opportunities that provide unique opportunities. You don't feel this is true (?) You DO (?) have data. I won't like it.

Nothing really directly relating to my response that I made to continue a conversation that you had raised points to discuss in.

Please, go on.

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 03:57:17 PM

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
Yes, my anecdote shows how people acquire skills outside of formal "job/group/organization" contexts all the time.   It is human nature to learn constantly.

That is true, but the conversation is about being IN A CLAN/JOB role they are currently in.

... what if there were a half-elf in the 'rinth who had no "job" job, because see the 'rinth is poor, and doesn't have a lot of "jobs," but it does have gangs. And this 'rinther became really good at sliding their dagger in between peoples' ribs, why you could almost say it was their "job" to shank people...

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PMI am questioning the very merit doling out "official" skill bumps for "official" jobs and depriving equally valid concepts of the bonuses they deserve as a result of equally valid roleplay.

Bolded for emphasis.  What?   :o :o :o   Who said anything about depriving equally valid concepts?

... and what if that half-elf 'rinther happened to innovate in how they sharpened their shanks for back-stabbing, and got some admirers. Started some sort of gang, or knife fighting club, and got a reputation for it. Yes, it's this 'rinther's "job" to do one thing in Zalanthas, and that is survive. Maybe the 'rinther gets rich off their pit fighting club, develops a whole new fighting style. But they can't get any clan perks, because it's not a real "CLAN/JOB," interest in pitfighting dies out, everyone would rather get a "real job" with skill boosts. We no longer have awesome player made RPTs in the 'rinth. The 'rinth is dead under your new system because it doesn't have a whole lot of "real jobs," you see.

It's basic extrapolation. In the Sims, you get perks from your "career ladders" and your "jobs." In Zalanthas, only one thing matters: survival. What the hell is a "job," anyway?

The way the code currently works, your half-elf would be one of the best backstabbers in the world because they have the coded opportunity to practice more than anyone else in the game.

Whereas a clan of assasins would not be as good because they are in a clan that restricts how they play, and thus how much they codedly practice.

The way the game currently works the poor rinthi psychopath will always be substantially more skilled than the trained elite clanned assasin. Some people see this and similar situations as undesirable, and breaking immersion into the gameworld.

Quote from: Narf on November 25, 2020, 04:51:46 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 03:57:17 PM

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
Yes, my anecdote shows how people acquire skills outside of formal "job/group/organization" contexts all the time.   It is human nature to learn constantly.

That is true, but the conversation is about being IN A CLAN/JOB role they are currently in.

... what if there were a half-elf in the 'rinth who had no "job" job, because see the 'rinth is poor, and doesn't have a lot of "jobs," but it does have gangs. And this 'rinther became really good at sliding their dagger in between peoples' ribs, why you could almost say it was their "job" to shank people...

Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2020, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 02:17:20 PMI am questioning the very merit doling out "official" skill bumps for "official" jobs and depriving equally valid concepts of the bonuses they deserve as a result of equally valid roleplay.

Bolded for emphasis.  What?   :o :o :o   Who said anything about depriving equally valid concepts?

... and what if that half-elf 'rinther happened to innovate in how they sharpened their shanks for back-stabbing, and got some admirers. Started some sort of gang, or knife fighting club, and got a reputation for it. Yes, it's this 'rinther's "job" to do one thing in Zalanthas, and that is survive. Maybe the 'rinther gets rich off their pit fighting club, develops a whole new fighting style. But they can't get any clan perks, because it's not a real "CLAN/JOB," interest in pitfighting dies out, everyone would rather get a "real job" with skill boosts. We no longer have awesome player made RPTs in the 'rinth. The 'rinth is dead under your new system because it doesn't have a whole lot of "real jobs," you see.

It's basic extrapolation. In the Sims, you get perks from your "career ladders" and your "jobs." In Zalanthas, only one thing matters: survival. What the hell is a "job," anyway?

The way the code currently works, your half-elf would be one of the best backstabbers in the world because they have the coded opportunity to practice more than anyone else in the game.

Whereas a clan of assasins would not be as good because they are in a clan that restricts how they play, and thus how much they codedly practice.

The way the game currently works the poor rinthi psychopath will always be substantially more skilled than the trained elite clanned assasin. Some people see this and similar situations as undesirable, and breaking immersion into the gameworld.

As if people in these elite organizations don't sneak off to train in stupid ways just like everybody else. They do, sometimes dying comically as they do so, and this occurs even when they have the benefit of a safe clan hall for stashing all their valuables before they sneak off to train! It's actually pretty amazing. But if we need to compound and add advantages onto the unfair advantages these peeps already have, well--actually--we don't need to give them more advantages. Maybe they can earn and recruit their own training partners just like everyone else has to.

Seriously -- if you add the perks you're asking for, do you think people receiving these perks are going to behave and show they're thankful for the perks by solo roleplaying doing drills?

No, no one's going to do that. They're going to get their perks, and then because no one is online, do what they do today -- sneak off and train in the wastes or in the 'rinth. After all, the skill bumps aren't even usable without training! So essentially all we have is a group of people with arbitrary bonuses doing the same roleplay defying training they did before.

Again, Delirium was right on -- just add an NPC or mechanism for this, and the benefit is earned and there's no room for abuse. I forget if it was Dar or someone else, but someone also rightly stated that mechanisms like this would consolidate roleplay around the main base. And bringing people together to role play is great! Nothing about invisible, rank based skill bumps would map to [1] more roleplay [2] merit, and so forth. It's a fine idea to want bonuses, but don't slam people for poking holes in what might be a badly designed first iteration of the idea (more of a note for people getting creative with their use of question marks in this thread). Together we'll arrive at something that works.

QuoteAs if people in these elite organizations don't sneak off to train in stupid ways just like everybody else.

It isn't just like everybody else.  I will sit in a clan where I'm the only soldier, for RL months, unable to train, until an actual IC opportunity arises for me to get training.  I don't think this is rare, and I don't think the 'jump into the 'rinth to practice' is nearly, even remotely, as common as it used to be.  I make this guess purely anecdotally based off of me playing low-combat-skill-high-stealth-skill 'rinthers...because they do nothing but wander around stealthy to look for people doing things to take advantage of in ways that make sense IC.  I think using this as a reasoning for avoiding action against the reason for the behavior is counterintuitive.

QuoteMaybe they can earn and recruit their own training partners just like everyone else has to.

Again, this is covered multiple times in the thread.  There's nothing 'unearned' here, it's just an interaction between the roleplaying setup and the code.

QuoteAgain, Delirium was right on -- just add an NPC or mechanism for this, and the benefit is earned and there's no room for abuse.

Notice that there was very little discussion about Delerium's idea.  There was no pushback.  There was 'yup' and then we moved on to continuing to discuss the other ideas.  The thread wasn't just 'settled' because some good ideas got put in there.  But people will continue to defend valid ideas when the counter-arguments don't make a lot of sense or require a difference in perspective.  Perspective of the game often leads to unending stalemates on the GDB, and the boon of that is deep discussion and exploration available whenever that topic comes up again, whether by staff or players.  Ins and outs and perspectives are all out in the open.

I'm still uncertain what abuse comes about from it.  But if this discussion results in the solution of clan trainers that inherently have different maximums that they teach, or something like that, then that's also great.  I mean...essentially, that actually makes characters stronger than what small flat skill bumps would do.  It would just be highly preferable for those trainers to be tailored to their clan.  The only downside is that those NPC scripts might require more time and effort.

QuoteThe way the game currently works the poor rinthi psychopath will always be substantially more skilled than the trained elite clanned assasin. Some people see this and similar situations as undesirable, and breaking immersion into the gameworld.

This pretty much beautifully sums it up.  I wouldn't push it so far as to be immersion breaking.  This isn't an 'OH MY GOD THE TRAVESTY' sort of issue.  I'd actually say it's way more subtle...impacting the relationships between clans and how they regard each other in documentation versus in practice.

Quote from: Eluin on November 25, 2020, 04:12:36 PM

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
Napoleon was... tiny.

Ok slight sidetrack here but no, Napoleon wasn't tiny. The french inch was bigger than the English inch at that time, and adjusting for average heights going back in time, he was of a respectable average height really. There was actually a cartoonist that caricatured him a bunch at the time that did a lot to push the message of him being comically short (mostly with his later works) with basically wartime propoganda, but it wasn't actually reality.

Ha...my history nerd self has been reading down the thread feeling SO indignant that people still believe that nonsense!  Dude was 5ft6 in modern inch units, a little bit below average for mainland Europe these days (modern Franch male average is around 5ft8.5-5ft9, for reference), but average for his time, and in no way particularly 'short'.

Thank you for soothing my indignant inner history nerd, Eluin <3

Quote from: triste on November 25, 2020, 05:45:42 PM
As if people in these elite organizations don't sneak off to train in stupid ways just like everybody else.

Speak for yourself.  Only time my Tor Scorpion trained was when playtimes and politics allowed for matching the Warlord at the time's schedule.  I am worried that you think 'everyone' does that...because no.  We don't.  And I am concerned if anyone assumes it is okay to do stuff like that because 'everyone does', just perpetuates that fact...maybe join club cool, and don't do that?  It's fun, we have cookies and awesome RP...but we'd like some sort of buff to stop people 'needing' (note: nobody NEEDS to do that, but it does make the RP flavour fall down a bit when you can't codedly get the skills any other way, so pick between twinking and being in the cool club) to do that nonsense.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 25, 2020, 06:56:42 PM

QuoteAgain, Delirium was right on -- just add an NPC or mechanism for this, and the benefit is earned and there's no room for abuse.

Notice that there was very little discussion about Delerium's idea.  There was no pushback.  There was 'yup' and then we moved on to continuing to discuss the other ideas.

The other ideas are inferior in the opinion of others, who are flat out resisting it. Again, it's not just me. If we all agree that the idea of Joan of Arc getting +5 to slashing is stupid [it is, you glossed over that "Oh she wouldn't get it as the top leader," when every other post by mansa et all describes that she would with this system], drop that idea and focus on Dar/Delirium/Riev's. You need the benefits materialized in game and something that can be interacted with, otherwise it's immersion breaking and silly. Alternatively, keep things as they are today with case-by-case handling so that anyone who convincingly earns a skill bump gets it, whatever their circumstances.

You all keep talking about "real war." In real war, only a small percentage of soldiers are capable of killing a large percentage of people. People always glorify Marines training, or whatever, but it's just a myth when it comes to individual outcomes. I want to be able to play a character like Joker in Full Metal Jacket and mostly suck. I actually played a character like that and got a lot of kudos. Getting "+10 to badassery" wouldn't be funny or help roleplay or do anything good if you want to play something like a true to life concept.

The flexible karma based perk is better in this situation. To use Joker from Full Metal Jacket, maybe I just want a perk that gives me +15 to tool making so I can make weird patches and shit for my helmet. Other people can get their +10 to ranged combat or whatever. Allow people to realize their concepts; it's better than homogeneity.

If anything the reality of war is closer to what Riev or lostinspace mentions and based on technical advents, think phalanxes. The realities of merit, achievement, and learning are nuanced, and not at all like they appear in videogames. I like that Armageddon is sometimes more like a stage with props than a videogame and I'd prefer to keep it that way in this case, and let people manifest and play the concepts they want to play rather than being type cast with "+2 to max damage wow." And yes, it is a game still, and needs to be playable, so maybe add a mechanism to help training and other pain points, but don't add weird stat and skill effects. I might start imagining showers of sparks when I know someone has +10 to dodge, because the mechanism is identical to a tacky MOBA or MMORPG and they love glittery sparks there.

Clan perks should still color inside the box.

QuoteThe other ideas are inferior in the opinion of others, who are flat out resisting it.

Uh...they were flat out resisted?  Where?

QuoteIf we all agree that the idea of Joan of Arc getting +5 to slashing is stupid [it is, you glossed over that "Oh she wouldn't get it as the top leader," when every other post by mansa et all describes that she would with this system]

I did the opposite of glossing over it.  I directly addressed it.  But if you want it far more in depth...

Under the proposed system, she wouldn't get bonuses, specifically because she is the equivalent of a character that came fresh from chargen with no military background to lead armies...with a banner, not with a sword, as you said.  In other words, she didn't even exist in the French Army clan environment prior to that.  That character isn't played in Arm, at least not in anywhere close to a consistent basis enough for it to even be an issue.  We specifically set parameters based around it not being something that recruits can just pick up.  It's once you're immersed in the clan, have been in the clan, and thus came the discussion of ranks, since most clans have some system of cadethood or a recruit status that is specifically for people who are new, not embedded, and still being evaluated.

But during that recruit period, they are simultaneously being exposed.  Virtually, in character, and sometimes out of character via clan boards, that character is being given their standards of operation.  Hence...sweet, they become embedded as 'part' of this, and they get what that group does.  As stated before...it's about bringing the environment into the game reality. 

QuoteYou all keep talking about "real war." In real war, only a small percentage of soldiers are capable of killing a large percentage of people. People always glorify Marines training, or whatever, but it's just a myth when it comes to individual outcomes. I want to be able to play a character like Joker in Full Metal Jacket and mostly suck. I actually played a character like that and got a lot of kudos. Getting "+10 to badassery" wouldn't be funny or help roleplay or do anything good if you want to play something like a true to life concept.

The flexible karma based perk is better in this situation. To use Joker from Full Metal Jacket, maybe I just want a perk that gives me +15 to tool making so I can make weird patches and shit for my helmet. Other people can get their +10 to ranged combat or whatever. Allow people to realize their concepts; it's better than homogeneity.

I must be missing where you're talking about.  I didn't talk about 'real war', but I did use real life examples to try and share congruent thinking.  But I can also say that you're making it out, once again, like what's being talked about is a jump from novice to master the moment you join a clan.  People will still suck.  You can still skip training and keep sucking.  No one is giving a recipe for anything like what you keep implying would happen.

But they'd be a little better at it than if they'd continued being an indy, oblivious to how that unit or group did things.  They'd be a little better at it than they were before being surrounded constantly by people doing it that way right in front of them.  This doesn't eliminate, box in, or destroy roles.  It doesn't change decisions your character is able to make.  It doesn't modify what roles are available to you.  I don't know what makes you think that my warrior 'rinther will no longer pursue being in the guild because sneaky guilders are very sneaky and I'm not sneaky.  That's weird.

QuoteThe flexible karma based perk is better in this situation. To use Joker from Full Metal Jacket, maybe I just want a perk that gives me +15 to tool making so I can make weird patches and shit for my helmet. Other people can get their +10 to ranged combat or whatever. Allow people to realize their concepts; it's better than homogeneity.

This statement comes from the same implication.  You're saying it's -better- to give bonuses based off of 0 in-game action than it is to acknowledge what is generally at least a year of in-game interaction.  And you're saying that clans being good at doing things makes it so that no one in that clan can ever do their own thing again.  But that isn't the way the code works.  That isn't the way the game works.  And that isn't the way the vast majority of our playerbase works.  You keep falling back to this point despite multiple statements of how it has little bearing, if any, on what's being discussed.

Likewise, while the perk system is a cool idea, as noted, it has nothing to do with clan benefits, and the poster of it said he didn't think clans needed clan benefits, and that was that.  If you want to make a perk system for clans, then we can extend that idea further.  If you don't want it for clans, then it's in...a different thread.

Quotethink phalanxes

Exactly.  Think phalanxes.

QuoteAnd yes, it is a game still, and needs to be playable, so maybe add a mechanism to help training and other pain points, but don't add weird stat and skill effects. I might start imagining showers of sparks when I know someone has +10 to dodge, because the mechanism is identical to a tacky MOBA or MMORPG and they love glittery sparks there.

Everyone talking about it in a positive way is pretty clearly not talking about gaminess.  You keep on positing that that's what it is.  The reality is that we're discussing code.  The same code that makes it so that when you wear this armor, your defense goes up.  When you hold this tool, you are suddenly better at weaponcrafting.  When you wear these sunslits, you don't get lost as easily.  These are known as mechanics, and they can be thought of as gamey if you like, but they are the way that we use code to influence the game world to its own reality.  They do not eliminate the stage you speak of, nor prevent the use of certain props.  Code is the ropes and pulleys that move the props around the stage to make them display what you want displayed.  Code is what makes it so that a staffer doesn't need to be there, influencing each and every thing in the game since we have chosen a system that is not free-form; you don't get to just emote something and have it be real.

The code we have is simultaneously one of the biggest draws of Armageddon and one of its setbacks.  Because of how it's been created, no amount of pure roleplay brings about the influence you want, because code must be shifted to show it.  Yet it also makes the world alive, dynamic, and acting on its own, not just a stage but a -living- stage.  Your view that code is gamey and detracts from the stage pretty much flies in the face of the game you already play.

SPECIFICALLY:  I like Delerium's idea.  I'm sorry I didn't specifically make a post to say +1 to something that I had no issues with and was vibing with other people who had posted before me.  I do not think it is the only solution, as every solution will have pros and cons.  Every single one.  I accept cons about each proposal...but I do not accept fabricated cons that aren't real or come from a place that smells like absurdity.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 25, 2020, 08:11:24 PM
Clan perks should still color inside the box.

I can't even color lines.

Joking aside, can you elaborate more on what that means?  Or is this a fun post?

Hmm. There are a lot of interesting ideas in this thread. To me it boils down to 'the box' for a PC being difficult to overcome after X amount of days played. You realize, through character development, that it'd be cool if they could pick up instrument making, or skinning, or sword making at a low cap, because it suits the character. Instead, they have to explain why they (for the life of them) can never and will never develop that craft.

Conversely, it seems combat skills are also being discussed, which is a complex equation. Basically, should elite/high-end units or PCs in that unit have access to higher caps in combat, cool special moves, or the like.

Part of me wishes that ArmageddonMUD had room for this kind of thing, but as it is currently built, I don't really think it does. Group combat on a whole is nightmarish in quality, 1v1 combat is pretty boring (with the exception of added new non-passive skills like riposte and hack). The only time combat is truly brutal is when one very skilled opponent fights another very not-skilled opponent, and that leads to assured quick death for the latter party. There's some wiggle room inside of this -- things like backstab and sap, which have woefully long timers to balance them out.

Like...I never really played Armageddon to chop up motherfuckerz with swordz, and when I do want to get those jollies, it's typically against Gith NPCs instead of other PCs. I truly get my jollies in the plots, which yes, do lead to PK from time to time (or all the time depending on the PC), but it's the story, not the skills, that I think the game does the best.

There's obviously room for improvement, mainly in making classes non-linear, which is not a system that Staff seems to want to go to (judging from recent comments from Brokkr as an example of not wanting to move to a skill based system, like https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56311.msg1054131.html#msg1054131 (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56311.msg1054131.html#msg1054131) and https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56290.msg1053846.html#msg1053846 (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56290.msg1053846.html#msg1053846)).

Barring a skill-based point buy system, where skill points might become available after X amount of days played or X skill level is reached in another related skill, the classes will remain flat. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means once you sort of figure out what class another PC is, it changes how you approach fighting them (or it can, in theory, even subconsciously.)

Similar to the mage full elementalist guild revamp, where the focus changed from them being a glass cannon to real people, a skill buy system or something akin to it would change our perceptions of PCs as a Class, so PC 1 is definitely a Stalker, while PC 2 is definitely a Soldier. It would be a mash up of skills based on that PC's background and interests that would dictate their limitations and goals and progress.

So...In essence...Without a skill-buy system, we have what we have, classes with predictable flat skill-trees and branching capabilities. That isn't terrible. We can choose subguilds to better round out that character's focuses, and that certainly changes a class and their capabilities. A Soldier who chooses Slipknife will be drastically different from a Soldier who chooses Master Weaponsmith.

Same boat as other (not bad) ideas presented, Veselka.  This has a lot less to do with character customization, and a lot more to do with clan identities being realizable in-game.  In other words, to make clans act in the way they are described in play and documentation.

If you read it as 'join this clan to be better at this', then it's the wrong framing and we're specifically trying to avoid that (i.e. The only real criticism I have of Delerium's idea is that it's more viable to clan hop for character progression) approach being rewarded.  Instead, it's about some action or change we can make that makes clans 'stick out' in the ways we say they do, as naturally as possible.

We need another thread for character customization ideas since people have a lot of those.  There have been more than a few over the years but I don't believe recently.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 25, 2020, 09:29:37 PM
Same boat as other (not bad) ideas presented, Veselka.  This has a lot less to do with character customization, and a lot more to do with clan identities being realizable in-game.  In other words, to make clans act in the way they are described in play and documentation.

If you read it as 'join this clan to be better at this', then it's the wrong framing and we're specifically trying to avoid that (i.e. The only real criticism I have of Delerium's idea is that it's more viable to clan hop for character progression) approach being rewarded.  Instead, it's about some action or change we can make that makes clans 'stick out' in the ways we say they do, as naturally as possible.

We need another thread for character customization ideas since people have a lot of those.  There have been more than a few over the years but I don't believe recently.

Fair point -- I suppose without many options to choose from, though, the ability to make Houses like Tor or Oash stand out from one another is limited.

So -- Without unique skills available to be applied to those clans, i'm at a loss of how to make them stand out. A higher cap to Riposte doesn't really wet my whistle or necessarily make sense.

NPC trainers might be possible? But that would only be within the context of The Grind. It circles back to the concept that Shadow Artists paled in combat to similarly days-played hunters, mostly because in the Hunters' grind, they constantly fought animals for Dem Gains.

It's complex, i'm not sure if there are simple answers (or even complex answers) to solve the esoteric things being discussed. I'm not sure skill gains/boons are the answer, or lower caps for those not in clans. Without more unique skills...Things like 'critical strike' or Jihaen pressure points or bulwark (shield wall with other people), the +/- of offensive skills versus defensive skills will plateau as it always has.

Quote from: Veselka on November 25, 2020, 09:51:19 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 25, 2020, 09:29:37 PM
Same boat as other (not bad) ideas presented, Veselka.  This has a lot less to do with character customization, and a lot more to do with clan identities being realizable in-game.  In other words, to make clans act in the way they are described in play and documentation.

If you read it as 'join this clan to be better at this', then it's the wrong framing and we're specifically trying to avoid that (i.e. The only real criticism I have of Delerium's idea is that it's more viable to clan hop for character progression) approach being rewarded.  Instead, it's about some action or change we can make that makes clans 'stick out' in the ways we say they do, as naturally as possible.

We need another thread for character customization ideas since people have a lot of those.  There have been more than a few over the years but I don't believe recently.

Fair point -- I suppose without many options to choose from, though, the ability to make Houses like Tor or Oash stand out from one another is limited.

So -- Without unique skills available to be applied to those clans, i'm at a loss of how to make them stand out. A higher cap to Riposte doesn't really wet my whistle or necessarily make sense.

NPC trainers might be possible? But that would only be within the context of The Grind. It circles back to the concept that Shadow Artists paled in combat to similarly days-played hunters, mostly because in the Hunters' grind, they constantly fought animals for Dem Gains.

It's complex, i'm not sure if there are simple answers (or even complex answers) to solve the esoteric things being discussed. I'm not sure skill gains/boons are the answer, or lower caps for those not in clans. Without more unique skills...Things like 'critical strike' or Jihaen pressure points or bulwark (shield wall with other people), the +/- of offensive skills versus defensive skills will plateau as it always has.

As discussed by people in discord, it's actually a pretty weird awkward mix of problems that there just may not be a direct solution to.  As with most coded-nature things, there's kind of a cascade of 'If we do this, we need to do this, which means we need to do this...' all the way down.

Clearly, people want more character customization options as well, still.  ;D

Quote from: Armaddict on November 25, 2020, 10:34:41 PM
there's kind of a cascade of 'If we do this, we need to do this, which means we need to do this...' all the way down.

This is why people who are (A) coders and/or (B) good roleplayers resist the idea.

I was drawn to this game as an RPI, but sometimes it feels like there is no room for the RP.

I said about three times here, "If you extrapolate and look at the implications of what you're asking for, there are problems." And now you've just posted triumphantly, "we've extrapolated and seen that there are problems!"

I'm out, I'm really out this time. I love you all and trust you to arrive at good conclusions. I'll see what's changed next time I check this out, hopefully catch some awesome stuff from (primarily) independent PCs like Kukuali and Sharper Still as mentioned in that other thread, etc. Don't extinguish the brightest sparks among you.

Quotehis is why people who are (A) coders and/or (B) good roleplayers resist the idea.

I was drawn to this game as an RPI, but sometimes it feels like there is no room for the RP.

I am both a coder and a good roleplayer, thank you very much.  If you think there is no room for RP in Armageddon, then I'm afraid you've chosen the wrong game.  The RP here is excellent.  Premium.  By far the best I've found that isn't 100% freeform story-mode, where emotes are the only interaction with anything in any manner.  If it isn't cutting it for you, then I think you might just be looking for one of those places that has little to no code support, but that's what holds a lot of people here, even for all its nuances and faults.

QuoteI said about three times here, "If you extrapolate and look at the implications of what you're asking for, there are problems." And now you've just posted triumphantly, "we've extrapolated and seen that there are problems!"

Let's re-examine that statement that you've used as some sort of walkback from me, because it's not.

QuoteAs discussed by people in discord, it's actually a pretty weird awkward mix of problems that there just may not be a direct solution to.

'Not a direct solution'.  A mix of various problems, such as how group combat works, such as how training works, such as how clans are written, such as interactions between houses...

That in no way shape or form says it's a bad idea, or unnecessary, or a waste of time.  It means that the desire or problem still exists, and there is all sorts of discussion to be had about how things work all the way down and how it impacts what's above it.  What things can be addressed, which things cannot.  What ideas would require a complete overhaul, and what items would be relatively low impact for whatever gain it made.  There are pros and cons to every implementation, including no implementation. 

This particular idea does not impede RP.  It does not imbalance the game with proper implementation.
It does address a particular area of a convoluted set of issues.  It does not address all of them.  Neither does any other idea.  Doing nothing says just let the issues remain issues, which is the chosen preference for some.

QuoteI'll see what's changed next time I check this out, hopefully catch some awesome stuff from (primarily) independent PCs like Kukuali and Sharper Still as mentioned in that other thread, etc. Don't extinguish the brightest sparks among you.

I'm overwhelmingly curious why the emphasis on independents.  If you don't like clans much that's well and good, because then working on clans and giving them marks of identity or filling holes left by the code-to-gameworld interaction will likely have little impact on you at all.  The brightest sparks among us are never in clans?  THIS EXTINGUISHES SPARKS?!

Alright, maybe your arguments don't extinguish the brightest lights among you, because your arguments are laughable and are making me laugh.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 26, 2020, 05:39:57 AM
If you don't like clans much that's well and good, because then working on clans and giving them marks of identity or filling holes left by the code-to-gameworld interaction will likely have little impact on you at all.

You're arguing for an economy with Sheeple and Meeples and saying that by giving all Sheeple $1000 (it's free money) and giving the Meeples $0 that the Meeple are "unaffected" because they didn't get anything. Uh, they're obviously affected -- you just made every Meeple $1000 poorer relative to every Sheeple.

Again, if you want to bludgeon good players over the head with your arguments, and then make laughable and mathematically illogical arguments like that, you're going to lose good players.

And listen, sorry I keep mentioning roleplay, I'm not just saying "roleplay" and dropping it to assume the high ground. That would be lame. I am also consistently the only person here speaking in terms of roleplay scenarios since the start of this debate.

You asked why I mentioned Kukuali et al. Well. I can't speak for her, but let me give you an anecdote. Again, I met her on my first long lived character after returning from a three year break of Armageddon. She taught me a lot. One anecdote from her that stuck with me was this. She told my character she couldn't ride to my character's homeland [the salt flats, I had a fun salt flats tribe independently before the Two Moons existed]. Kukuali said as soon as she rides near the Salt Flats, a Templar or one of their servants would likely whisk her right into the Arena by some Whiran curse. And the Arena would of course be inescapable, she would have to fight and die. So sorry, you cute semi-noob returning to the game, I can't see your PC's homeland. I remember hearing this and thinking, OOCly, "That's OP, not necessarily good roleplay, and kind of silly, but fits the setting I guess."

And since returning to play this game, I've noticed if you play anything that's not a Bynner or Militia member or Templar, the odds are comically stacked against you. I've had a member of the Crimson Wind killed directly by a Templar with about four hours played under her belt. When you roleplay through a risky scene with your fellow Crimson Wind and die for it at 4 hours played, with novice parry, to a mon level fireball, you might think, OOCly, "That's OP, not necessarily good roleplay, and kind of silly, but fits the setting I guess."

When you play a city elf merchant, who doesn't have an in game tribe because none exist, you find out that your earning capacity is limited by how much you can carry and how strong the lock on your apartment is. You will be a crafty independent elf and be proud to make a large in a day. You then learn that the average human Salarri crafter can make ten large a day because they have infinite free and secure storage and special clan locked recipes. You despair, knowing these Houses in Allanak never hire non-human crafters, and think, OOCly, "That's OP, not necessarily good roleplay, and kind of silly, but fits the setting I guess."

But then you have an epiphany: half of these scenarios do not fit the setting. Why does a Templar ride out unattended by guards to kill and cast magick on a raider on their own? I feel like it's outrageous for figures of such stature to do that. Why does it make sense for a bumbling novice crafter at Salarr to instantly have more earning power than even the most skilled elven merchant? It doesn't. The game isn't broken, but the game is already severely imbalanced and stacked against certain concepts, and here I see a thread, "Please give more bonuses to these already over powered groups." Yeah, no. You can't tell me what to think about all of these scenarios after what I've seen.

All of these stories are from more than a year ago. I only felt comfortable talking about Kukuali because she opened the door to talking about her character first a while ago. And again. God damn I love powerful indies who shake up the game, it's an uphill battle and she worked on her plots for years.

You try your darndest to care about roleplay. You see a thread like this and are consistently the only person to provide good anecdotes about roleplay, because you care about roleplay. You get kudos for playing thankless characters, but always take a beating and suffer. And then, when you try to fight and advocate for good roleplay, you have some other guy posting just as much as you smugly say, "this isn't the game for you."

Do ya'll deal with this on the discord also? 🤣🤣

I'm not in the discord. I'm too busy for this stuff generally. I just want to be sure that players who would be directly harmed by this change would still have a chance to enjoy the game.

Show some respect, perhaps.

Quote from: Shabago on November 15, 2020, 10:32:23 AM
I suppose sitting out much longer isn't required at this stage of a pending lock.

Staff have zero issue with a topic being discussed. Go nuts. Will it be implemented? Likely not. Will that change some time, somewhere down the road? Who knows. This game has constantly changed, so what's the point in saying never?

Meanwhile,

Triste. Knock it off. Stop the bad faith points, don't get on a soap box to preach at your fellow players because you happen to have a similar stance as staff. Do not call people monsters for pointing out your bad faith arguments. Take a breath - let people talk.

Slip/Addict/whoever else: If a post is bothersome, bad faith, etc - skip it. Carry on. It doesn't require direct confrontation or we end up with thread locks on good discussion, which is what is about to happen here. If it's a direct insult, inflammatory, baiting, etc. - hit the report button. I have no issue in handing out bans until the rules are followed.

Locked.