Clan bonuses via code?

[triste]

Was my position and Staff's position called a joke only to be immediately followed by a statement that tattoos should give you skills?

Well I guess that is why so many of my friends have tattoos! I like smart, talented people, I just never imagined they got their talents from tattoos!

[triste]

> l me
You are the lizard guy with midnight black scales. Not only would a tattooist's needle be unable to pierce these scales, but they are pitch black and any ink set in these scales would not show.

list
1] A sweet tatt of a sword drippin' blood +10 parry
2] A hella cool tatt of a muscly arm +10 to slashing.
3] A tattoo of a long phallic gourd for +10 to compensation.
3] Some wicked inkz of +1 heckin new spell!

Buy #3

The weathered, middle-aged half-elf says: "What the fuck are you doing trying to tattoo your scales, I don't even see what you got inked."

You say: I got sweet gainz tattooed into my scales. Sweet Gainz.

> l me
You are the lizard guy with midnight black scales. Not only would a tattooist's needle be unable to pierce these scales, but they are pitch black and any ink set in these scales would not show. He has a bunch of tattoos you cannot see which give him sweet gainz. If you accuse him of caring more about gameplay than roleplay he and all his friends will dogpile you on the GDB because nothing gets between this man and his gainz.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm sure that we can grasp that having tats confer a bonus or cap or skill is an OOC construct to handle the code-side work of dealing with the idea. ICly, having access to that tat simply means that you have grasped/understood/gained access to this elite training. We don't have to stretch things that much to understand the divide between IC/OOC or our attempts to bridge that gap.

Fortunately, we don't have any scaly races, so ... not relevant, I guess. Pick your salt up.

If you accuse him of caring more about gameplay than roleplay he and all his friends will dogpile you on the GDB because nothing gets between this man and his gainz.

Conversely, one could argue that you like to ridicule and demean people that care about code and roleplay. But I do care about both. If I wanted code, I'd play a regular H&S, and if I wanted roleplay, I'd play a mush. But I want both, so I've been playing Armageddon for 23 years, because both of these are important here. I roleplay far more than I gain skillz, shockingly. But I live and die on code, very literally, so I also consider the code.

This idea has been predicated around the concept that certain organizations have training regiments and specializations - this idea in fact backed by the currently-implemented Clan Crafts. Suggesting that a militant clan might also have such specialized and advanced training seems perfectly in-character to me. Recipes, if you will, of skills that are indicative of that clan's fighting force. It's difficult to imagine that anyone intelligent enough to appreciate this game can't understand the reasoning for the consideration of such a concept, regardless of disagreeing with it or not.

We're a stalwart community of people who've got some reason to stick around and play this game, and even more poignantly, argue for and against concepts, ideas, improvements, etc. Let's try being civil when we're at loggerheads. We'll get more out of it, no matter what the consensus is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I have had many different kinds of characters in nearly all of the games clans at one point or another.  These character archetypes have had their own individual motivations, and have put forth wildly varying levels of effort with everything from purposefully slacking off to being incredibly gung-ho and motivated.

Considering that each individual character's motivations are going to differ within each clan, it doesn't really make sense that these characters all gain an equal bonus of any sort.  It doesn't make sense that my spy who only joined a House to find out the secret of X should get 15% basket weaving when that isn't why he is there. The same goes for my Bynner who is really just there to hide out from the law while giving minimum effort and avoiding sparring at all costs.

In my opinion, if you want your character to be a better guard after joining the Byn they should focus on practicing how to guard.

Skill boosts assume each character is putting forth an honest effort to be or become what the House or Clan focuses on, which just isn't true in all cases.

That's a good point, but I don't think it's not the basis of this idea, as I see it. Let's put this another way, but of course, remember that I support raised caps, not added skill.

If the Byn merc is a master of Guard, and the Tor Scorpion is also a master of Guard, do you think that the Tor Scorpion would be out of line gaining access to a mildly raised cap in Guarding to reflect that House's specialization in protection? The raised cap would require more training, and in no way would be an unearned bonus. If you do think it would be out of line, why?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I also might mention that, more than even a raised cap to support the concept of a clan's accumulated knowledge, new commands, skills, or stances please me even more. We currently have the riposte stance, which is a skill for Warrior Class characters. A Bynner might gain a berserker stance, the Militia soldier a stun or intimidate stance, the Scorpion a guarded stance, etc. The Outrider might gain a new mounted stance, the tribal a sandkick or scream stance.

Rather than higher skills (which certainly also has a place), they gain access to clan-specialized stances or moves, which is also a cool idea.

[triste]

To be clear, in the following response, I am not arguing for equality. Armageddon is an apocalyptic setting with an extreme lack of equality.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. If you've seen footage of some of India's Waste Pickers you will find their ability to forage and sort waste is far beyond the efficiency of most machines. Many people who do this develop specialized hooks and tools to efficiently forage through garbage. These people do not work for a House or Clan that teach them their secret waste-picking arts.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. One of the most popular martial arts right now, Capoeira, was invented by slaves. One of the most popular martial arts before that, Krav Maga, was invented by people oppressed by the state and military organizations you all are extolling as granting "elite skills." How do you explain these skills that have not come from elites? Seems kind of like your argument falls apart in the face of this.

I understand the desire to diversify and have specialized skills suited to whatever role you have. But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses you want only to see how it flies in the face of all realism and playability.

[mansa]

...But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses ...

Seems like a good idea for a new MMH construct to create... similar to Sujaals' fighting school in the past.   Each school training new combat moves...

[triste]

...But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses ...

Seems like a good idea for a new MMH construct to create... similar to Sujaals' fighting school in the past.   Each school training new combat moves...

I didn't know Sujaal's fighting school, but it sounds like other independent organizations people have tried to form, the very organizations that would fail to form and thrive if we slapped immersion breaking bonuses on Houses. People already complain that independent organizations are too difficult to form.

Best not to kill plots and potential.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To be clear, in the following response, I am not arguing for equality. Armageddon is an apocalyptic setting with an extreme lack of equality.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. If you've seen footage of some of India's Waste Pickers you will find their ability to forage and sort waste is far beyond the efficiency of most machines. Many people who do this develop specialized hooks and tools to efficiently forage through garbage. These people do not work for a House or Clan that teach them their secret waste-picking arts.

Here's an allegory about extreme inequality and skills. One of the most popular martial arts right now, Capoeira, was invented by slaves. One of the most popular martial arts before that, Krav Maga, was invented by people oppressed by the state and military organizations you all are extolling as granting "elite skills." How do you explain these skills that have not come from elites? Seems kind of like your argument falls apart in the face of this.

I understand the desire to diversify and have specialized skills suited to whatever role you have. But there isn't a house to suit every role in game, and any codification of the roles in houses would be clumsy. The current system of skill progression understands that. People develop their skills in accordance with their character concepts, done and done. It would be tremendously tedious to implement the bonuses you want only to see how it flies in the face of all realism and playability.

Now, see, that right there's what I expected from you - and I can dig it. And what's more, I don't have a instant retort! Aside from the fact that Capoeira is a unique art that only the very best practitioners are actually dangerous with, and IIRC, Krav Maga is an art with its origins in the IDF, which can certainly be considered a member of the authoritative state, even if that began underground. I personally appreciate Muay Thai, but I digress.

The argument doesn't really fall apart either, because ultimately, the creativity of the establishment still crushes individual innovation on a regular basis (not always!), even in our own world. But you make a good point that I don't have a great retort for. Yet. It's coming, though ... just you wait.

But I still strongly disagree that raising-cap/granting-access for a couple of skills based on a Clan/House's training would be clunky at all. The skill still reads Master for anyone who looks at their skill list, and it appearing on their skill list when they didn't have it before is no different than branching. Coders would have a little bit of work, true, but I disagree to the clumsiness of it. I don't know if it would be worth it - is the poop code worth it? I think the worth would be based on the coders' desire, really.

As far as realism and playability, nah, there's nothing flying in the winds of Whira there. One advantage to the written word is that knowledge (technique and research) are preserved, both of which lend themselves to innovation and adaption, which in turn create specializations. Specializations lend themselves to definitions of purpose, which filters down to employees as additional, unique skill.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... and IIRC, Krav Maga is an art with its origins in the IDF ...

Just as an aside here, I'm wrong about this - I'm no scholar on martial arts. Krav Maga was primarily developed by a man who sought to protect his oppressed peoples, but it was refined by the IDF into what it is now. So I'm wrong, and right, all at once. Whew.

[triste]

... and IIRC, Krav Maga is an art with its origins in the IDF ...

Just as an aside here, I'm wrong about this - I'm no scholar on martial arts. Krav Maga was primarily developed by a man who sought to protect his oppressed peoples, but it was refined by the IDF into what it is now. So I'm wrong, and right, all at once. Whew.

Yes, we are both wrong and right about all of this. It is often recommended to make a list of pros and cons in a situation like this.

Here's my list of pro's and cons for the situation at hand, supposing the situation is allowing clan based skill boosts:

Pluses:
- You get skills that reinforce the role you're playing.
- It makes Houses compelling and enriching and fixes problems seen in the past for House Tor.
- Sweet skillz and gains that allows you to stand out as a PC / diversify your skill sheet.
- Automation of character skill boosts you can request now.
- Any rebel organizations will go from having some chance of success to less chance of success, which fits setting.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

Cons:
- Whatever bonuses granted might not fit your concept (AKA your house gives a bonus to knitting and your character has a phobia of yarn)
- It might make Houses and groups with less sexy boosts or no boosts less compelling and depopulated.
- Some PCs necessarily will get more sweet skillz than others for reasons not reinforced by roleplay.
- Tons of staff effort to implement automation / this feature generally.
- Eliminates incentives for groups to form naturally from plots, such as a rebel group with no bonuses against groups with bonuses.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

Now that I have resorted to mentioning Nazis directly I will escort myself out of this debate FOR REAL. In all of this, you can also get a kick out of my posts by replacing the word "roleplay" with "mudsex." Please laugh at my expense.

But again, much <3 to staff for the previous posts.

[Hauwke]

I'd like to point out, that in most instances, the person with formal training will be more sucessful in a fight. But, much like with makers of things like art, there are the occassional prodigy, the guy who made Krav Maga for example likely would have been an even better combatant had he been taught something formally.

[triste]

I'd like to point out, that in most instances, the person with formal training will be more sucessful in a fight. But, much like with makers of things like art, there are the occassional prodigy, the guy who made Krav Maga for example likely would have been an even better combatant had he been taught something formally.

I was friends with a lesbian adult entertainer and cage fighter, she actually went to my Krav Maga gym! Who knew, being an adult entertainer makes people great at punching. Or maybe punching things makes women great at adult entertainment? Here's my point: I want people to play whatever the eff they want as long as it fits setting. You never who is going to be an amazing combatant; let people train up and prove they are a great fighter with whatever backstory or vocation they want.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Pluses:
- You get skills that reinforce the role you're playing.
- It makes Houses compelling and enriching and fixes problems seen in the past for House Tor.
- Sweet skillz and gains that allows you to stand out as a PC / diversify your skill sheet.
- Automation of character skill boosts you can request now.
- Any rebel organizations will go from having some chance of success to less chance of success, which fits setting.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

- Yes.
- Yes.
- Kind of, except I really only look at it in light of 1 and 2.
- I certainly favor taking responsibility off of staffs' shoulders when possible. I love seeing them scheming on plots and building new and cool stuff, instead of having to decide if char x gets skill y.
- I don't actually think this is a pro, but conversely, I also don't think it changes their chances for success much, since their attempt to rebel will be predicated on far more than a skirmish somewhere in the sands. That's a battle; rebellion is a war. And war requires far reaching plans and alliances that exceed our code's ability to represent it. A war, in fact, requires roleplay, thankfully.
- Debatable. Since I am a proponent of higher caps to reflect strategic teachings, not flat item-like bonuses that reflect technology, the SS officer would have had to put in the same amount of training as the founder of Krav Maga, and then on top of that, train harder to implement the SS' combative regiment. The Nazi bastard could very well have access to better training, but did they strive to take advantage of it? Remember, the better you become, the harder it is to improve.

Cons:
- Whatever bonuses granted might not fit your concept (AKA your house gives a bonus to knitting and your character has a phobia of yarn)
- It might make Houses and groups with less sexy boosts or no boosts less compelling and depopulated.
- Some PCs necessarily will get more sweet skillz than others for reasons not reinforced by roleplay.
- Tons of staff effort to implement automation / this feature generally.
- Eliminates incentives for groups to form naturally from plots, such as a rebel group with no bonuses against groups with bonuses.
- Aligns nicely with a world-view that rank = merit. In the aforementioned historical example of Krav Maga, someone believing this world view believes an SS Officer would necessarily be a better combatant than the founder of Krav Maga because the SS Officer has formal training.

- This is feasible, but using the example of a warrior who focuses on being a master swordsman and doesn't bother to train axes and clubs, doesn't actually change anything about your character unless you wanted it to.
- Well, I think all militant clans with relevant history should have access to some sort of thematically appropriate training, but ... I don't think it invalidates any clan at all, even if they don't. Each clan has its own rules and ways, and they will appeal to anyone who wants to play a concept that jives with that House. I doubt any clan would become more or less populated.
- No PCs would end up getting skills they didn't work for. You can point at time played, sparring sessions had, merits earned to get to the sekrit knowledges rank, and no matter what, they'll have earned it.
- I'm not a great coder, but I can code. I don't think that it would be that hard to handle. Now to be fair, I dabble with coding in C# for Unity, and I think Arm is a mix of Java and C or C+ (can't remember which). A long time ago, I played with a Circle dirivative, which was more advanced than base DIKU but still had it's origins therein. I accomplished some pretty cool stuff in it, and I couldn't really code well. Now, I'd suggest that affixing those cap increases to tattoos earned once the House decided you were worth the training would make it a lot more simple than affixing it to the actual clan ranking system, but ... regardless of which method it used, it's doable, and it wouldn't require some code overhaul. Is it really worth it? That, I don't have the answer to.
- Hell no. A rebel group would have every reason to form as it does now. PC clans made right now form because the founder wants something new and to make their mark on the world. If they'll forego security and free water and food and choose to pay rent and shoulder the responsibility that an indie clan leader deals with, then a couple of skills with a higher cap in some clan isn't going to change a single thing.
And I think you are super concerned about the difference a little increase means. A guard with 85 as opposed to 80 in guarding will just successfully guard 85 percent of the time instead of 80. It's a difference, but it's not mind blowing. It's 8.5/10 as opposed to 8/10. It might be crucial, it might not be, but it isn't some godly difference. If a player decided not to rebel because of that, they were probably never serious in the first place.
- Rank = right to better potential. Potential is the key word. Still have to put in the work. Still have to survive.


So, my own pros and cons.

Pros:
- Thematically appropriate.
- Additional rewards for long-term play in a clan.
- Codify Clans'/Houses' dominance in certain fields.
- Implemented as suggested throughout this thread, is not disruptive in the grand scheme of things.

Cons:
- Coders have to want to tackle it (this is by far my #1 con).
- Could disturb people who don't like code (By far my #2, but I argue that they have got to give what I like a fair shot too).
- Creates marginal unfairness in indie versus clanned roles. I think it's very marginal, but it is there. I don't see it as any different than the cool crafting recipes Salaar has that indie clan #34 doesn't.
- Could possibly attract powergamers, but I argue that if a power-gamer is willing to roleplay for a half a year or potentially much longer, they deserve it. I also am extremely doubtful that anyone who spent that much gaining a skill would then do some OOC stuff with it.

Now, I'll bring this part up again. If a Scorpion had a Tor-derived master at 85 in gaurding, and a Bynner had a warrior-class-derived 80, the Scorpion could say truthfully (both ICly as they should code or not code, and also as far as the code is concerned) that House Tor had training to create the best guards in the Southlands, but they would only protect their charge .5 more times in 10 assassination attempts than the Bynner. Even at 90, the Scorpion would only succeed 1 more time in 10, than the Bynner veteran. That's not to mention that there are other skills that are taken into consideration when guarding someone. And that's not to mention that the Scorpion seeking to achieve that Tor-derived potential, would have been in that clan for a good half a year, maybe a whole year of RL.

It's simply not world changing at all.

[Kyviantre]

Only one small item of note talking about elite versus not-elite.

Knights/knight cavalry versus peasant infantry in medieval Europe.  Knights are going to be able to slaughter the infantry far more often than the other way around, this is due to specialised training.  This would be your Tor Scorpions.

Welsh longbows versus the French at Agincourt.  Those longbowmen (and the English longbows as well) required a lot of training - yes, this was 'indy', but it was dedicated, and one-on-one, they'd get slaughtered by a knight.  Numbers is what counts with longbows to create good volleys.  This would be your Bynners.

Byn has the numbers and consistant, constant training from people who are self-taught (down through the years).  Tor has much fewer numbers, but access to better trainers, better food, better medics...but specifically those highly sought after, top-of-the-line trainers that money can afford, giving one-to-one training on certain aspects (which I doubt the NPC Bynners give/get!).

Another example other than martial arts...one a bit more relevant to the skill trees we've got here?

[triste]

Only one small item of note talking about elite versus not-elite.

Knights/knight cavalry versus peasant infantry in medieval Europe.  Knights are going to be able to slaughter the infantry far more often than the other way around, this is due to specialised training.  This would be your Tor Scorpions.

Welsh longbows versus the French at Agincourt.  Those longbowmen (and the English longbows as well) required a lot of training - yes, this was 'indy', but it was dedicated, and one-on-one, they'd get slaughtered by a knight.  Numbers is what counts with longbows to create good volleys.  This would be your Bynners.

Byn has the numbers and consistant, constant training from people who are self-taught (down through the years).  Tor has much fewer numbers, but access to better trainers, better food, better medics...but specifically those highly sought after, top-of-the-line trainers that money can afford, giving one-to-one training on certain aspects (which I doubt the NPC Bynners give/get!).

Another example other than martial arts...one a bit more relevant to the skill trees we've got here?

The history nerd in me has to concede all of this is about right. The skeletal structures of some knights reflected this training; the bones of their sword arms were longer and thicker than most people's from all that combat and training. I just would prefer people got these bonuses through roleplaying rather than auto-magically as a result of joining a certain group.

[Kyviantre]

But it isn't auto-magickally...

They join X group, ROLEPLAY for 3 RL months, gain a promotion, ROLEPLAY for another 3 RL months, gain a second promotion, and their NPC clan leader goes, "Dude, you've been here for a few years, we'd like you to meet Geoffrey.  Geoffrey is our <insert skill> trainer.  He's going to spend one day a week (while you're logged out, or via a higher cap - whichever gets settled on) teaching you to be a better <skill> person.  I trusted you to give you two promotions, you deserve some special attention from Geoffrey's teaching.  Take advantage of his advice, and don't mess it up!".

Sure, it is automatic...but getting the promotion certainly isn't automatic.  You gain the promotion via roleplay, but just like when you get access to the Elite Barracks automatically, you'd get access to Geoffrey's Training Scheme For Good Boys And Girls automatically.

No magick either, you still need to train the skill to reach the new cap.

We are literally talking about a few elite-type groups having better Geoffrey's on hand.  The Byn has more people, the Wyverns/Scorpions have Geoffrey and Barry the special trainers.

History nerding is always the right choice!

[Riev]

5 Posts ago, Triste said they were done. Almost every "no" or "disagree" post has been from them.

This is not about "get recruited to House Tor for +2 strength, leave, go to the AoD and get your +5 rescue skill, leave, keep getting skillups". This is 100% about "I've been in this clan and dedicated my time and roleplay for LITERAL. MONTHS. And I am hoping to get a coded bonus to my character that reflects the virtual training that has gone on while I could not play."

Triste has a peg-leg to stand on, because it does kind of 'screw' PC clans. PC clans wont have a long standing tradition and history that allows them to have these skills. You know what they do have? The ability to create a PC clan which we didn't have 5 years ago.

The suggestion is for 'established' clans with NPC command structure that PCs can never attain. You will never create a mercenary company where you are at the same level as Captain Copper. So your PC clan will not have anything near what the T'zai Byn can offer.

Be indie. Make your own clan. Make your coin. Try to become established. Or, join an establishment and reap the benefits if you can survive, and dedicate days of your actual life to enhancing the roleplay of this game.

I say the idea has merit. I don't look down on anyone who thinks about code, nor do I look down on anyone who is social/roleplay only. I would never, ever call people out on the GDB (vague as it is to protect myself from scrutiny) simply to belabor my own point.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Indies have another advantage, too. They have the ability to be fluid, to define and redefine what they do many times over, evolving to any situation that they encounter in a fluid manner large organizations can only dream about. They often have a more familial approach to organization, and they have freedom large clans can only dream about. Yes, they have less culture, in a way, because they have less history, but the players in an indie clan can more easily shift culture, again making that clan a very unique creation that they've had a hand in forming.

House Tor will always be about protecting the Nine and the City. Salarr will always make weapons; Kadius will always create luxury goods. Fale will always fai ... uh ... party. Larger Houses will never replace PC clans, because they will always cater to a sect of players that enjoy that niche. PC Clans will always be the escape from rigidity and role definition that all established clans, even those tribal clans, impose upon their members.

No skill bump or raised cap that takes someone months and years to attain will keep players from pursuing whatever role they want to play, in whatever clan they want to play.

[rinthrat]

5 Posts ago, Triste said they were done. Almost every "no" or "disagree" post has been from them.

This is not about "get recruited to House Tor for +2 strength, leave, go to the AoD and get your +5 rescue skill, leave, keep getting skillups".

This is absolutely going to happen, though. There is a lot of fluctuation between clans these days, and it's common for long-lived PCs to have had leadership positions in two or three of those. I'm also worried that this encourages doing the absolute minimum required to get promoted, and playing it safe until you get that sweet +5 archery - the only reason you joined up in the first place.

I don't think it's entirely realistic for higher ranked PCs to always be 'better' at something. Anyone in a leadership position is going to focus on - well, that. Leadership. Teaching, training, or strategy. Their lower-ranked minions can focus on development of their own physical skills all day long, leadership has to focus on the group, and might be too old to be in the best shape of their lives.

I agree that clans need to have a few more perks besides 'oh, safe storage and here is some water' (which not even all of them are getting), but I'm not sure this is it.

[Armaddict]

This is absolutely going to happen, though. There is a lot of fluctuation between clans these days, and it's common for long-lived PCs to have had leadership positions in two or three of those. I'm also worried that this encourages doing the absolute minimum required to get promoted, and playing it safe until you get that sweet +5 archery - the only reason you joined up in the first place.

Erm, to clarify...are you guys talking about a bump that persists?  As in you're concerned about someone working their way up for the bonus, then leaving, then doing the same elsewhere?  Because what I've been talking about is more about the clan than the character.  Think of it as the 'heightened awareness of blah blah skill' fading when you're not in that consistent high-intensity-for-it atmosphere, or like less of a knowledge-based skill check and more of a 'constant routine muscle memory' thing from the clan's emphasis on that thing.  In other words, it wouldn't persist.  It is -for that clan-, making characters within it fit the reputation, not -for each character-, from spending some time in a clan.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I prefer an edge that fades outside of that clan, myself, but, being aware that this would require additional, more complex code work, I'd settle for permanent. I don't think it matters if it does persist, as it still serves the purpose of reflecting specialized training, and you can argue that someone might retain that training, but ideally, it does fade, reflecting the dearth of the constant drilling, teaching, and environment that creates that edge.

[triste]

This is absolutely going to happen, though. There is a lot of fluctuation between clans these days, and it's common for long-lived PCs to have had leadership positions in two or three of those. I'm also worried that this encourages doing the absolute minimum required to get promoted, and playing it safe until you get that sweet +5 archery - the only reason you joined up in the first place.

Erm, to clarify...are you guys talking about a bump that persists?  As in you're concerned about someone working their way up for the bonus, then leaving, then doing the same elsewhere?  Because what I've been talking about is more about the clan than the character.  Think of it as the 'heightened awareness of blah blah skill' fading when you're not in that consistent high-intensity-for-it atmosphere, or like less of a knowledge-based skill check and more of a 'constant routine muscle memory' thing from the clan's emphasis on that thing.  In other words, it wouldn't persist.  It is -for that clan-, making characters within it fit the reputation, not -for each character-, from spending some time in a clan.

Going to respond to this the way people have been responding to my posts: Are you...

SERIOUS??
At least 7DV had the decency to realize all the code work in his reply.

Let's imagine we get the world Armaddict wants, a world in which we have sweet boosts with a list of rules and exceptions 10 pages long that defenders of skill boosts have thought of to justify their position.

The Story of the Man with the Biggest Balls in the Known

Amos's Score:
You are affected by: Blue Balls, Sweet Clan +10 to Smashing
Amos: Help! Help! A witch has cursed me and my Pickleberries are the size of Japak Melons now!
Gickerina: Alright, hold still, I'll rid you of this curse!
Mist pours from Gickerina's hand towards Amos, and the massive bulge in his pants diminishes.
Amos's Score:
You are affected by: Nothing
Amos screams: YOU GOT RID OF MY CLAN BOOST?
Gickerina: Your what?
Amos screams: YOUR DISPELL GOT RID OF MY BOOST. Forget it massive swollen glands are alright give me back my SKILLS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MY SKILLS.
Gickerina OOCs: Jesus fuck stop trying to roleplay this immersion breaking shit and just wish up, it's a new feature, some bug just happened.


Banned for Stat Crimes

Sergeant Malik: Are you sure you want to leave, Talia? We won't take you back.
Talia: I am sure, Sergeant. I have something I must do up North... I don't want to disgrace the Militia by wandering off to pursue this.
Sergeant Malik: I'll be frank: it is rare for us to simply let someone of your rank leave, knowing what you know, but you've served well. I'll give you this.
Sergeant Malik dumps Talia from the Militia.
Talia's Score:
You are affected by: Sweet Militia Stat Boost
Talia says: Thank you Malik, is there anything else you need?

[ ALERT ] - Socket got disconnected.
            Reason: The remote host closed the connection

Talia logs back in and thinks, bad timing for a crash.

(Two years later)
Talia's Score:
You are affected by: Sweet Militia Stat Boost
A staff member sends you a message: Oh I see you've had a buggy stat-boost that didn't fade away because a crash messed up the expiration timer. Why didn't you tell us?
Talia sends staff a message: I thought it was normal for it to last that long.
A staff member sends you a message: The documentation clearly states that the bonus fades away after a while.
Talia sends staff a message: But when? When was it supposed to fade? I'm sorry I didn't know!
A staff member sends you a message: An in game month. Oh actually it varies by clan and circumstance because someone said on the GDB that they wanted that. But still. You really should have known better walking around with this boost for two years, we're suspending your account.
Talia sends stafff a message: WHAT??? I never wanted this stupid boost to begin with because I care more about RP PLEASE DON'T.


House Krappius

Kalan thinks: The day has finally come. I've hidden that I'm a breed from my employers to House Krappius so that I could master the greatest douche making techniques in the known. I can't wait for my House Krappius bonus to crafting bidets and douches I've heard about.
Head Merchant Kassy Krappius: I now induct you as a full House Merchant of House Krappius!
Kalan is promoted to House Merchant of House Krappius.
Kalan's score:
You are affected by: +10 to Fellati-owned and Frottage
Kalan screams: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS STAT BOOST I'M NOT A BOTTOM I JUST WANT TO MAKE BIDETS! 
Head Merchant Kassy Krappius: Oh dear!
Kalan: I'm leaving House Krappius right now on my promotion day.
Head Merchant Kassy Krappius: Oh my! People do seem to do that a lot these days.


I can go on forever, or do you have more rules that dance around these obvious failure modes of such a system?

And let's imagine 7DV's proposal in brief.

Min-Max the Badass: I want to join House Tor.
Sergeant Torp: I've heard about you, Max. How can I be sure you won't leave this place as soon as you're promoted?
Min-Max the Badass: Just a reputation. I'm serious.
Min-Max's score:
You are affected by: Smelly Guilder Feet for + 10 to kick, House Jal +10 to salt resistance, House Salarr armor helps u 2 timez as good, +5 to drinking Byn Bonus, +10 to subdue Militia bonus, +5 to listen Oashi Guard bonus
Sergeant Torp: No, I think I'll pass.
Min-Max the Badass: Bad choice.
Min-Max the Badass attacks the Sergeant of House Tor, dealing frightening damage!

(a month later)
Staff: House Tor has been closed due to stat boost hungry twinks killing the Sergeant. I know you all are capable with those sweet boosts but you didn't stop when we asked and now House Tor is closed.


All these scenarios suck: the only good scenarios in this are the ones you lads are imagining when everything goes your way like Min-Max the Badass, but obviously that comes at the cost of harming the entire game for the petty benefit of a few.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

 

[triste]

You're invited to post a good scenario if you want!

But will the back-patting, self-aggrandizing scenario posted outweigh the obvious costs introduced by such a system? We can leave people to decide.

But if your only retort is  my point is proven.