Clan bonuses via code?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

What if there were practice commands that checked your skills; "practice dual wield" would set you into a workout mode with a basic start and end emote that you can flesh out with emotes of your own. Different clans might have different caps to how high you can get with solo practice in varying skills. Tor might favor spear and shield, Borsail two handed and slashing, Byn might have a more even spread, etc.

They would work a lot like crafting skills, except they'd use the practice command rather than a craft command.

Sparring would always be preferable to solo practice due to various combat code factors, but that would still help with two issues in one go; low clan population not providing sparring partners, and the disparity in which mages can solo-train but combat characters cannot.

Yeah, I think this would be an exceptional thing. I'm not even so sure I'd make it less productive than sparring. I could see a trainer strolling through ranks of soldiers, while they "practice". I think I'd mix customized practice with raised caps. For instance, maybe Tor Reds have raised guard caps, and Silvers have raised shield caps, but no immediate boost. Instead, they are able to attain these raised caps through either common sparring, or their practices.

This is a clever idea. Now I have to go find Dar's idea and reread it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd be thrilled if training areas in clans would give boosts to learning and performance.

So crafting areas give crafting bonus to success (Might already be happening due to stationary objects)

Sparring areas give learning bonuses to people sparring in them.

I wouldnt mind having training sessions that give temporary skills.

Like for example, spending time in Byn training area, would set a flag on you that gave you subdue/bash/guard skill bonus of +10. It would be an affect that would eventually wear off with an echo of something like, "Your memories of T'zai Byn training begin to dim."   That bonus shouldnt be grandiose, but having that skill even on low levels and not having it at all is a big difference. At the same time, it'll be more then just having rank in a clan, but you'd actually need to spend time in certain locations to achieve it.

Perhaps if you do guard duty at the gates/barracks, while being AoD would give you a short lived +10 scan bonus.


Make it frequent and intricate enough, different bonuses for different clans, in different situations. Would it make it a little more gamey? +1 to whatever? Maybe. But it will also encourage clannies to spend time together in the same locale. Gather enough PCs in one place and at least two plots and four murders will occur.  Always a good thing.

I don't hate this one. I think I'd maybe steal the forgetting portion of this, and apply it to the max cap portion of my own idea. I also like the idea of training in a clan sparring area giving bonuses to learning according to the clan's precepts. So maybe sparring in the Tor Academy allows you to learn the piercing skill better than anywhere in the game, so that, ex: instead of missing 50 times, you only need to miss 35 times.

Mixing this and Delirium's idea makes me pretty content.

A burglar-class (I know it doesn't exist anymore but whatever) Tor White has no boost to any skills, but of course they've maybe learned spear-work better in the time they've been working. They become a Red. They gain access to the guard skill and rescue skill(which they didn't have previously), and it's cap is warrior+. They still have to learn it. They spend some time working, and 1/2 year later, they become a Silver. They already have the shield skill, but now it's cap is warrior+. They still have to raise it, but this burglar now epitomizes Tor training. They have been taught the Tor Precepts (I haven't thought out these skills or anything else, but this is just an example.)

A Templar decides to hunt this Tor Silver, and for whatever reason, it's time to flee. They are no longer a Scorpion, and for each RL day, they lose a point from their cap for these learned skills, until they return to their pre-Tor days, since they are no longer participating in Tor training.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Now, does this invalidate the Byn, for instance, escorting a noble to x location?

Hell no. There's one Scorpion. Maybe there's two Scorpions. There's ten Byn. There's thousands of gith. It doesn't hurt the world in anyway, shape or form. The Scorpions might cost as much as the Byn does, but you have the best personal protection in the southern realm. You still need bodies, which the Scorpions can't support - enter the Byn.

Note that all of this is just rambling thoughts, but surely it's understandable how clan bonuses/access to skills can actually enhance the game, rather than detract from it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

For Tor, higher maxes means you'd draw in more people who are looking to invest in the long term to hit above and beyond where others go in exchange for their loyalty.  The Academy, the place that charges exorbitant amounts of coin to train someone, would have a leg to stand on as far as why they charge so much; they really do make the elite product, not the same thing as a Bynner.

Some clans might give an immediate boost (Pure Theory, not a deadset proposal: The Guild gives stealth bonuses immediately, due to being more established in the dregs), some might have specialized gear access (Merchant houses in particular), some might mess with maxxes on certain types of skills (Tor, Lyksae, etc), some might do this or that.  It's a lot less about finding something that can be manipulated, and a lot more on making most members of a group actual or potential representation of that group in the game world.

Well said, in particular, the various ways that bonuses would be achieved.

I'd also add that I think membership in "special" clans should have capped numbers. If I were bringing back Tor, for instance, there'd be 1 noble, and 5 Scorpions (and only 3 of the Red/Silver variety (I've always advocated having a White trainee rank)). There's also no Aides in this equation, since I always thought that Scorpions had the unique training to be both Aide and Soldier. I would do things like this to make sure that membership is vaunted, and to not dilute the playerbase too much.

[triste]

For Tor, higher maxes means you'd draw in more people who are looking to invest in the long term to hit above and beyond where others go in exchange for their loyalty.  The Academy, the place that charges exorbitant amounts of coin to train someone, would have a leg to stand on as far as why they charge so much; they really do make the elite product, not the same thing as a Bynner.

Some clans might give an immediate boost (Pure Theory, not a deadset proposal: The Guild gives stealth bonuses immediately, due to being more established in the dregs), some might have specialized gear access (Merchant houses in particular), some might mess with maxxes on certain types of skills (Tor, Lyksae, etc), some might do this or that.  It's a lot less about finding something that can be manipulated, and a lot more on making most members of a group actual or potential representation of that group in the game world.

Well said, in particular, the various ways that bonuses would be achieved.

I'd also add that I think membership in "special" clans should have capped numbers. If I were bringing back Tor, for instance, there'd be 1 noble, and 5 Scorpions (and only 3 of the Red/Silver variety (I've always advocated having a White trainee rank)). I would do things like this to make sure that membership is vaunted, and to not dilute the playerbase too much.

The cap would be strictly necessary given how the bonuses corrupt every other incentive for joining clans. And so rules upon rules will cascade from this change you want. RP and role mobility crushed in the name of meta stat boosts. Lovely.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The cap would be strictly necessary given how the bonuses corrupt every other incentive for joining clans.

Caps in some clans should absolutely be a thing, stats or no. And how do bonuses corrupt any incentive? For instance, why would being a Scorpion corrupt an incentive?

And so rules upon rules will cascade from this change you want.

Coded rules? Or IC rules? I don't really understand this one.

RP and role mobility crushed in the name of meta stat boosts. Lovely.

You would have to be in the clan for a decent amount of time to attain any of these perks. How is RP crushed? And role mobility? I'm not sure what you mean by that one. If you mean flitting from clan to clan, I don't know why that would change.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This sums up my confusion over this. If some raiding clan has your +2 boots of mobility because they raided and killed someone who was of high-enough rank to earn and wear them... good for them? Now your clan has a reason to team up with others to whittle down and/or steal from the raiders to get your shit back.

Why is "oh no people might kill me for my items" a problem? Is a PC clan so scary that you cannot possibly work with the 13 other clans to fight back?

I think all of this is just fine - but I prefer clan-based bonuses in terms of reflecting actual training. Having cool clan-only items just adds to the pie. There's room for both.

I remember Wyverns being killed for their wrist-razors. Those killers were, indeed, hunted down when possible.

[triste]

The cap would be strictly necessary given how the bonuses corrupt every other incentive for joining clans.

Caps in some clans should absolutely be a thing, stats or no. And how do bonuses corrupt any incentive? For instance, why would being a Scorpion corrupt an incentive?

Stat boosts corrupt incentives by being a new incentive totally unrelated to good roleplay. Example, newbie Joe rolls a warrior and picks strength last as he had a quick warrior concept. He now realizes he needs better strength to be a better warrior after OOCing with some lovely stat-obsessed people, so now he seeks to join whatever clan gives him a stat boost. He finds out the clan giving that stat boost is Tor, tries to join on his first character, fails for obvious reasons, and gets sad and quits Armageddon.

Now, in a less stat-obsessed world without sweet boostz to ur statz, Joe would have been guided to the Byn or maybe a cool independent hunter who would have taught him everything he needed to know. He'd still be playing Armageddon today because he saw, clearly, that this is a game that cares about roleplay, not statz. Happy ending!

And so rules upon rules will cascade from this change you want.

Coded rules? Or IC rules? I don't really understand this one.

Literally what you just posted my friend~~~

"I want a stat boost, but we'd have to also add caps, and all these other rules." Just a heads up to staff, 7DV is right! And you're going to have a headache finagling with this code and these boosts for years. Timmy is gonna be sad Clan A boosts stat X and get you to change the clan to boosting stat Y, only to have Sally, Lenny and Timmy [yes, Timmy again] complain about boosting stat Y because they want to boost stat Z. If anything I've been arguing hard in this thread for Staff benefit because I can see a logistical nightmare like this from a mile away.

To make it exceedingly clear, the boosts as defined are themselves rules--a coded rule or switch or case statement or lookup embedded in your code--and by definition adds more restrictions on the character you can play. Of course, duh. Code* that encodes* codified* rules* are in effect... more rules and restrictions! My goodness. Duh, of course. And in order to make sure these boosts aren't abused, you need more rules like clan-caps. Oh, wow, you said it yourself, so why did you ask me?

But, again, the main reason I am arguing against this is because it kills good roleplay.

RP and role mobility crushed in the name of meta stat boosts. Lovely.

You would have to be in the clan for a decent amount of time to attain any of these perks. How is RP crushed? And role mobility? I'm not sure what you mean by that one. If you mean flitting from clan to clan, I don't know why that would change.

It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a stat boosts, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!



* Are you telling me the word "code" is a synonym for "rule?!?!?!" Wow, logic is beautiful!

[slipshod]

I just don't agree that these ideas will lead people to quit or will wreck the game for people or will make player created or independent clans unappealing and discourage people from joining and crap all over said clans - at least not for any significant number of people.  I don't think there needs to be any kind of parity between clans or types of clans.  One clan can excel at something that is consummate with the unique culture of that clan.

[triste]

I just don't agree that these ideas will lead people to quit or will wreck the game for people or will make player created or independent clans unappealing and discourage people from joining and crap all over said clans - at least not for any significant number of people.  I don't think there needs to be any kind of parity between clans or types of clans.  One clan can excel at something that is consummate with the unique culture of that clan.

Ah, "at least not for any significant number of people." In case you haven't been typing who in game recently, we don't have a significant number of players. I really don't know why we have to compromise the character of our game in this way; we shouldn't.

Thanks for not disparaging me in your reply this time <3

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You have some real concerns, and they're rife with intelligent thought. But you also have a "holier than thou" method of offering these thoughts. I wish you'd be a little more chill. Still, let's address these concerns.

Stat boosts corrupt incentives by being a new incentive totally unrelated to good roleplay. Example, newbie Joe rolls a warrior and picks strength last as he had a quick warrior concept. He now realizes he needs better strength to be a better warrior after OOCing with some lovely stat-obsessed people, so now he seeks to join whatever clan gives him a stat boost. He finds out the clan giving that stat boost is Tor, tries to join on his first character, fails for obvious reasons, and gets sad and quits Armageddon.

Now, in a less stat-obsessed world without sweet boostz to ur statz, Joe would have been guided to the Byn or maybe a cool independent hunter who would have taught him everything he needed to know. He'd still be playing Armageddon today because he saw, clearly, that this is a game that cares about roleplay, not statz. Happy ending!

See, I don't see this as an occurance which would happen enough to matter. I personally think that if Joe is a good player, or cares about roleplay, those stats won't matter enough. And I think that if he does care about strength that much, he'll go suicide anyway, clan boosts or no. I also think that the Byn is still the choice he'd have to make because they are far more active, made for entry-level people. That hunter is still going to take him places to fight things and discover things Tor will never show him, along with the freedom he'd never have in Tor.

If you're disappointed that Joe cared more about stats than roleplaying and so he quit the game, we're not on the same page, because I couldn't care less.

Literally what you just posted my friend~~~

"I want a stat boost, but we'd have to also add caps, and all these other rules." Just a heads up to staff, 7DV is right! And you're going to have a headache finagling with this code and these boosts for years. Timmy is gonna be sad Clan A boosts stat X and get you to change the clan to boosting stat Y, only to have Sally, Lenny and Timmy [yes, Timmy again] complain about boosting stat Y because they want to boost stat Z. If anything I've been arguing hard in this thread for Staff benefit because I can see a logistical nightmare like this from a mile away.

To make it exceedingly clear, the boosts as defined are themselves rules--a coded rule or switch or case statement or lookup embedded in your code--and by definition adds more restrictions on the character you can play. Of course, duh. Codes that encode codified rules are in effect... more rules and restrictions! Duh, of course. And in order to make sure these boosts aren't abused, you need more rules like clan-caps. Oh, wow, you said it yourself, so why did you ask me?

But, again, the main reason I am arguing against this is because it kills good roleplay.

Oh, yeah, code will always be a sticking point in these things. That's never going to change, and I highly doubt any of us advocates think it will ever go in. But we argue out the flaws in order to fix them, so that in case staff ever gets into it, they have a pretty decent idea base to pull from. The roleplay ... we'll look at that below.

It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a staff boost, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!

So, here we've got a decent example of killing good roleplay. You're just missing one thing. Every single clan in this game is specialized. Bonuses to skills would be tailored to that House. All they do is enhance playing in that House. Nobody who wanted to make awesome clothing is going to join Kurac because of their crafting bonus, because Kurac doesn't sell clothing. Nobody who wants to make weapons or armor is going to join Kadius - they don't sell that stuff. Nobody who wants to see every invisible thing in the sand is going to join Tor, and nobody who wants to be the best bodyguard in the world is going to join Kurac. You're engaging in a lot of conjecture that really doesn't have an basis in the idea's concept - to enhance a clan's identity.

I'm also pretty sure that by the time staff would decide to do such a thing, they would have already listened to the arguments of the best roleplayers, who surely can't be anybody offering up this concept of clan-enhancing skill boosts. Be cool. We're just discussing an idea. An idea - that's all it is.

[Shabago]

Well, for what my two sids are worth: No. I want nothing to do with seeing 'stat bonus' to clans.

This is an RPI.

Your creativity and ability to tell a story will elevate you.

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

[triste]

It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a staff boost, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!

So, here we've got a decent example of killing good roleplay. You're just missing one thing. Every single clan in this game is specialized. Bonuses to skills would be tailored to that House. All they do is enhance playing in that House. Nobody who wanted to make awesome clothing is going to join Kurac because of their crafting bonus, because Kurac doesn't sell clothing. Nobody who wants to make weapons or armor is going to join Kadius - they don't sell that stuff. Nobody who wants to see every invisible thing in the sand is going to join Tor, and nobody who wants to be the best bodyguard in the world is going to join Kurac. You're engaging in a lot of conjecture that really doesn't have an basis in the idea's concept - to enhance a clan's identity.

Why use a blunt force instrument to enhance the identity of a clan when we already have a ton of documentation and mechanisms for that which wouldn't be as cartoonish as a stat boost? I'll use rugby as an example; rugby is a sport with well balanced role needs. You need strong stocky people, you need tall people, you need short people, you need strong people, you need fast people etc. Let's say someone invents a technology to suddenly give rugby players stat boosts flatly across the team. One team gets a strength stat boost, but the stat boost gods also add -1 to agility for realism because people become musclebound when people get that muscly. Suddenly their eight man and hookers become too musclebound to do their jobs running around quickly and their team starts losing. The people who were specialized to be fast quit, and you now have a team that lacks dynamism or the ability to even win. This is exactly what will happen to Houses in game: Houses will lack dynamism and diverse roles, and some Houses will start losing and dying off.

Teams and systems benefit from specialization. The ability to specialize and assign roles is what allowed humanity to leave the caves. I would like to be able to play nuanced, specialized roles. I don't want to have immersion killed in my game by encountering weird Houses that suddenly makes everyone as buff as neanderthals, or suddenly makes everyone eggheaded intellectuals in a cartoonish way for no good roleplay reason.

[triste]

Well, for what my two sids are worth: No. I want nothing to do with seeing 'stat bonus' to clans.

This is an RPI.

Your creativity and ability to tell a story will elevate you.

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

And this is why I love debates on the forum, thanks for your feedback!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, for what my two sids are worth: No. I want nothing to do with seeing 'stat bonus' to clans.

This is an RPI.

Your creativity and ability to tell a story will elevate you.

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

Your two cents are worth four, at least, but I don't think clan-based stats encourage that sort of behavior in any way. Since they are specific to the clan, whoever has them has been part of the clan for a long period of time, and has put in enough work to not want to see it go away. Since it's not code-abuse twinking, or solo play, that gets you access to the ranks required to gain the skill boosts, I don't see how it ever encourages such behavior.

Yes, creativity and ability to tell a story carries you, but a gith arrow doesn't care about that, so if Tor training is about gith arrows, now we have to look to the code. It's nice to have that Tor training attached to your shield skill in order to back up all of that creativity and story that got me to this moment in time.

It is an RPI, and that's why I play it. But if I only wanted to roleplay, a mush would be even better. Armageddon is a nice blend of code/enforced roleplay. And this idea is only about code in order to enhance a clan's identity.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It adds a factor besides roleplay not only to clan caps, to every decision people make joining a clan. Your argument that people will magically look beyond stat incentives is not optimistic, it's just shortsighted. Let's imagine a scenario where one Merchant House gives you +2 to crafting, and the others give no benefit that anyone wants, like an extra cubby that can only hold 20 items. Suddenly everyone would rush to join House StatBoost. Our classic clans like House Kadius or whoever got shafted with the crappy boosts would have no players. No one plays in House Kadius for two years. Staff logically shut it down. Suddenly no one can access those Kadius mastercrafts players have made over 30 years. **The whole game suffers because of a staff boost, that in your own words, didn't need to be added.** We now only have house custom crafts by House StatBoost left in game, and boy is it a sad state, those crafts are so uninspired because all roleplaying sort of went downhill after those stat boosts went in, should have listened to the quality roleplayers who identified the obvious problems with such a system!

So, here we've got a decent example of killing good roleplay. You're just missing one thing. Every single clan in this game is specialized. Bonuses to skills would be tailored to that House. All they do is enhance playing in that House. Nobody who wanted to make awesome clothing is going to join Kurac because of their crafting bonus, because Kurac doesn't sell clothing. Nobody who wants to make weapons or armor is going to join Kadius - they don't sell that stuff. Nobody who wants to see every invisible thing in the sand is going to join Tor, and nobody who wants to be the best bodyguard in the world is going to join Kurac. You're engaging in a lot of conjecture that really doesn't have an basis in the idea's concept - to enhance a clan's identity.

Why use a blunt force instrument to enhance the identity of a clan when we already have a ton of documentation and mechanisms for that which wouldn't be as cartoonish as a stat boost? I'll use rugby as an example; rugby is a sport with well balanced role needs. You need strong stocky people, you need tall people, you need short people, you need strong people, you need fast people etc. Let's say someone invents a technology to suddenly give rugby players stat boosts flatly across the team. One team gets a strength stat boost, but the stat boost gods also add -1 to agility for realism because people become musclebound when people get that muscly. Suddenly their eight man and hookers become too musclebound to do their jobs running around quickly and their team starts losing. The people who were specialized to be fast quit, and you now have a team that lacks dynamism or the ability to even win. This is exactly what will happen to Houses in game: Houses will lack dynamism and diverse roles, and some Houses will start losing and dying off.

Teams and systems benefit from specialization. The ability to specialize and assign roles is what allowed humanity to leave the caves. I would like to be able to play nuanced, specialized roles. I don't want to have immersion killed in my game by encountering weird Houses that suddenly makes everyone as buff as neanderthals, or suddenly makes everyone eggheaded intellectuals in a cartoonish way for no good roleplay reason.

That's a fair argument.

But how does having every tenured Tor Scorpion have a high Guard skill change anything about the person they are? They have access to a utility skill which allows them to be able to train to be better than other people at guarding. The Tor clan is supposed to specialize in guarding (actually, War Planning and protection of the Nine, but ...). Why would this thing which simply tells the code that yes, this Scorpion has indeed had the best training at guarding and so can do it better than others, limit the concept of a character in any way whatsoever? They are still the character they rolled up in Chargen. They have the same personality, stats, skills, and so on that they started with. They can and probably will fulfill any role they did before. The only difference is that they can become one of a very few paragons of protecting someone, which is something they had to roleplay training for in the first place. And if they didn't want to be a bodyguard, they wouldn't have joined Tor in the first place.

The difference between having a 90 in guarding, instead of an 80, isn't so gamebreaking as to be untenable. It just means I am the best, in a House that is about having the best. Like I mentioned before, I'd never welcome a stat boost in the attributes, only skill based bonuses. And if the skills are limited to the concept of the House, I just don't see how anything is changed in terms of conceiving a character, or deciding what clan to join.

[Brokkr]

-We aren't looking to add stat boosts to clans.
-We aren't looking to add new skills to your skill list for joining a clan.
-We aren't looking to give a higher skill cap than you can otherwise get for joining a clan.

-We aren't looking for people to make new clans like the Soh.  They are desert elves and PC made desert elf clans have been prohibited for a long time now.
-We aren't looking to make things equal between IC groups.  Yes, Tor nobles might be able to get some great stuff.  That they order from Salarr.  The best makers of armor and weapons in the Known.  Who spend a lot of time on those things, cause it is Tor.  Will your PC clan be able to replicate that?  Likely not.

-Just because you are discussing it, just means you have some ideas in your heads.  No use loosing them over stuff we aren't even contemplating.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

One thing about these sorts of ideas is that if staff ever wants to get down with it, they have reference material to add to their own discussions staff-side. I think the majority of us aren't thinking we'll ever see this - but it's fun to dicker about.

[triste]

But how does having every tenured Tor Scorpion have a high Guard skill change anything about the person they are?

I bring you the story of Twinkamos (Twink for short) and Lieutenant Tired Veterana (Veteran for short):

Twink: Yes, I'm sure I want to join and become a Tor Scorpion in time.
Veteran: You cannot just join, what are your credentials?
Twink: Well, I fight well.
Veteran: You need more than that, come to think if it, are you even an Allanaki Citizen?
Twink: I am. How about I get to ask you a question. Is it true the Tor Scorpions are good at guarding?
Veteran: Uh... yes. We are one of the most elite group of warriors you'll be able to find in the known, indeed just last--
Twink: Awesome so you're good at guarding! What if I don't know how to guard already?
Veteran: Then I advise you join the Byn and talk to me in a few years.
Twink: Yeah I did that, I mean do you GET the GUARD SKILL because I don't have that.
Veteran: I--
Twink: I always wanted to play a miscreant but didn't but because they don't get guard, I didn't.
Veteran: Please stop--
Twink: But if your clan gives that boost I can so I am playing a miscreant the first time man I love this new change.
Veteran: I hate this new change.


No. No. Nonononono. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

This is why Shabago and I are saying no. Why even invite the possibility of scenes like that when we can easily avoid them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Come on, hahaha.

You know that's fucking far fetched.

It's funny as hell, but that's not going to really happen. The amount of time some has to play a character is really the thing I think that gates it properly. Furthermore, as the interviewer, they would simply never get in.

You're good, Triste, I'll give you that.

You argue against the idea because of the potential for that scene.

I argue for the idea because of the potential for a Scorpion to not be lying when he makes that claim.

[betweenford]

A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz.

Thanks for the inspiration for my next character. I'll be sure to add the cherry on top and kill them(my victims) without a single emote either.

[triste]

Thank you for how you weighed in on all of this, staff. I think you're making the right call.

Thanks also to other peeps who weighed in of course!

[Aruven]

Some people have the ability to fuck up any thread. Can we just lock this now?

[Hauwke]

I think a very important facet of this whole thing to mention, is that no one SEEMS to actually be advocating for actual stat increases. They seem to be advocating for skills, in fact. Which is far more reasonable in my eyes. Byn are guards, kinda. Give everyone in the clan access to apprentice guard and rescue to simulate the training they go through.

Why does it all have to be master level stuff?

[lostinspace]

If I wanted to put in a code relevant way for elite troops to train, I would introduce a sparring room in their clan that had an NPC that'll train with them. For simplicity sake it flees when it or the opponent goes under ~60% hp.

Take it a step further, and the NPC you're training with has skills based on your rank. If you're a Tor Scorpion level 3, you'll fight the level 3 NPC. This way the value of your sparring raises with rank, and it doesn't matter if you leave.
The clear advantage here is that you improve faster when training with a stronger opponent, so that's the clan's advantage.

For crafters, I'd have something similar. Instead of clan locked crafts, change them all into tool locked crafts, and make those tools only available in the respective clan compound.
Want to make those Salarr super boots? Well then you need access to a Salarr shell punch, there's one on their argosy, one in their compound, and I hear there's one in their old broken down argosy
that's got gith living in it.

By tying these bonuses to places, NPCs, or objects we remove the roleplay question of "Why did I suddenly forget how to make those boots I've been making for seven years?" and replace it with "How am I going to get access to a shell press for long enough to make more boots. Maybe I can seduce a Salarr aide and convince them to let me use the workbench?"