Clan bonuses via code?

[Dan]

Personally, I have had many different kinds of characters in nearly all of the games clans at one point or another.  These character archetypes have had their own individual motivations, and have put forth wildly varying levels of effort with everything from purposefully slacking off to being incredibly gung-ho and motivated.

Considering that each individual character's motivations are going to differ within each clan, it doesn't really make sense that these characters all gain an equal bonus of any sort.  It doesn't make sense that my spy who only joined a House to find out the secret of X should get 15% basket weaving when that isn't why he is there. The same goes for my Bynner who is really just there to hide out from the law while giving minimum effort and avoiding sparring at all costs.

In my opinion, if you want your character to be a better guard after joining the Byn they should focus on practicing how to guard.

Skill boosts assume each character is putting forth an honest effort to be or become what the House or Clan focuses on, which just isn't true in all cases.

[Armaddict]

You know what stat boosts accomplish? You know what all the various code-abuse twinking gets us? A handful of hack n slash PCs roaming the Known, bored that they can tank a bahamet solo, and then start murder-fest on PCs that put hours into ROLE PLAYING in a ROLE PLAYING game, because lulz. Those players stop putting forth the effort, the story declines, players leave, and we then hear the same handful go "Wow, things sure are quiet/stagnant."

One, this is pretty categorically either untrue or falsely presented, if only because you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay.  It's a trend that has shown up in various 'I'm leaving' posts, under the guise of disagreements with staff.  Essentially, they are roleplaying, and they are trying to do what a character would do, and they end up being told it's either wrong or impossible.  Take into account that broad, untrue accusations are routinely made in regards to roleplay and motivations (such as clearly seen in this very thread), and no wonder people leave: You've already painted a picture that the game is filled with people who just run around killing things, getting bored, and so they kill players instead...when in my experience it's often the reverse: I play an antagonist, get roped up in things, manage to survive, things die down, and I end up doing boring routine activities to keep myself entertained until the next plot arises.  The interesting part of that is that it often isn't 'I make things happen', it's waiting for routine character actions of others to line up as to present opportunity at the price of conflict.

Second, direct stat gains have been done before, not in conjunction with clan gains but with 'rp and logs'.  People wanted stat gains, it was pretty overdone, and yet the quality of the game didn't suddenly deteriorate into 'I only do RP that results in stat gains, sorry', which is a simple breakdown of that argument here.  People will continue to make the characters in the arenas that interest them.  People will continue to not play roles that seem boring.  The only differences are A) Independents in a certain arena might have a reason to clan up, if they're willing, and B) Certain clans naturally start to lean towards making use of what their reputation says they do really well.

Third, as noted, I don't think anyone was a proponent for actual statistic gains, only small bonuses of various types that fit each clan to make its identity easier to realize.

-Just because you are discussing it, just means you have some ideas in your heads.  No use loosing them over stuff we aren't even contemplating.

Fourth, anyone who's spent any amount of time on the GDB knows that there are dozens of ideas that come around and we'll be lucky if even the overwhelmingly popular top 5% get implemented.  Yet, that urge to contribute ideas still remains.  It's healthy.  It's fun.  It involves deeper discussion about the gameworld that only improves roleplay, as long as it isn't reduced to 'I like roleplay, you disagree with me, therefore you must hate roleplay'.

Overall, I never expect change to come from the GDB.  It's a pretty welcome thing most of the time, when it actually happens.  Most of the GDB for me is players of various experiences and backgrounds and types arguing relentlessly about the game...which runs some people off, because they still view it as some sort of place for ideas to be approved and shot down.  For me, it's where I get gems of wisdom as far as how to see certain things, or random tidbits about the game that I just didn't know, and that I could theoretically build entire characters around, or inspiration to try out certain things.

Here, in this thread, the example was the prevalence of a gameworld that is fairly strictly written.  Elite units.  Groups who do this.  The view of progression from 'recruit' to an established member.  It's juxtaposed with a code-based medium that doesn't lend weight to those backgrounds, groups, etc, to the point that the characters interacting around those topics often can't even pretend that the gameworld reputation is true, they have to go with the 'coded reality'.  This discussion...seemed to be an attempt to shift the gameworld reality closer to coded reality.  That's it.

Added because DAN POSTED WHILE I DID *tsks*:

Skill boosts assume each character is putting forth an honest effort to be or become what the House or Clan focuses on, which just isn't true in all cases.

While some of what you say is accurate, that's actually going down the wrong path.  Your character has different motivations, and that's great.  You have different emphasis, and that's also great.  But that's not what the bonus does.  It acts as the force of the clan's emphasis, not your character's.  Which means that you may be a crappy guard in a guarding clan...and your emphasis is not on guarding, so you will remain a crappy guard.  But the clan still emphasizes guarding.  And to be true to the actual discussion, it's not that they just emphasize it, they are -known- for being the best at it.  Better than anyone else.  The bonus is not to instantly make you into that master.  But it does add the idea that the culture, the routine, the standards, of this clan will improve you in that area no matter what just by sheer exposure.

So yeah, you could remain a crappy guard in that clan if that motivation doesn't pull you in.  If you don't line up with their mission and they keep you.  But that doesn't free you from the workings of that clan being based around that thing.  You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

[mansa]

Rereading the original post,  I think the idea was to have some sort of progression system within a clan structure that would give additional perks besides the current perks of progressing in clan rank:
* All clanned NPCs assists the higher ranking PC
* Additional coins on your monthly stipend
* Access to different areas of the clan bases.
* Access to a NPC follower
* Access to NPC goods distributers
* Access to Clan Items


Let's consider the T'zai Byn as an example:
When you're Rank 1 - Runner, you get access to:
#1 - Clan Base
#2 - NPC goods distributer (Cook)
#3 - Byn Clan Aba

When you're Rank 2 - Trooper, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items

When you're Rank 3 - Sergeant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items
#3 - Clan Flags (Recruiter, Leader, Banker, etc)

When you're rank 4 - Lieutenant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items


Are there additional perks that could be provided to those characters who progress in rank beyond the current coded perks?
Can players who reach rank 3 and 4 (and 5 and 6) of established clans get coded benefits which are unique to the fantasy/story aspect of those clans?

[triste]

you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay

Quick question, why are many of your posts arguing for rigidly defining roleplay then with simplistic notions like "People in House Tor are good at guarding. They get a bonus to guard." Seems like you are asking for staff to do something that you correctly state causes us to lose players. Yeah, let's not do that!

You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Oh, I would have loved to tell this to my ex, a coder, who passed away at age 23 due to an inherited heart condition. If you just hung around people with high endurance like football players, my deceased love and coder friend, your heart would still be beating today.

No, Armaddict... it doesn't work that way. He's dead. No amount of endurance training could fix his malformed heart. How I wish your arguments were logically true, but they are not.

Realism can be heartbreaking, but I prefer realism because it leads to better roleplaying.

[Hauwke]

Skills Triste, reading the fucking post. If you hang around footballers you will learn to kick a ball.

[triste]

Skills Triste, reading the fucking post. If you hang around footballers you will learn to kick a ball.

You saying now that no one has been in favor of stat boosts, doesn't ah, change the facts. It's all over this thread.

Again, I am just so glad staff have weighed in, I only weighed in due to anxiety about roleplay breaking mechanisms being introduced and harming the game.

I would also like to caution against using the f-bomb when replying to people, which a few people have. I am not being uncivil in the same way. Cursing wildly like that makes one look like they are losing the argument, thereby making me look like I am winning the argument (which is not my intent, my intent, like staff's intent, is preserving quality roleplay in this game).

[Armaddict]

you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay

Quick question, why are many of your posts arguing for rigidly defining roleplay then with simplistic notions like "People in House Tor are good at guarding. They get a bonus to guard." Seems like you are asking for staff to do something that you correctly state causes us to lose players. Yeah, let's not do that!

You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Oh, I would have loved to tell this to my ex, a coder, who passed away at age 23 due to an inherited heart condition. If you just hung around people with high endurance like football players, my deceased love and coder friend, your heart would still be beating today.

No, Armaddict... it doesn't work that way. He's dead. No amount of endurance training could fix his malformed heart. How I wish your arguments were logically true, but they are not.

Realism can be heartbreaking, but I prefer realism because it leads to better roleplaying.

...I don't really even grasp where this comes from.  No.  I do not define roleplay, I argue against the narrowing of the definition of roleplay. I have been incredibly all-inclusive in regards to what kinds of players should be here for a long time.  It's literally a recurring theme that seems to have escaped you.  And while I use examples from Tor, they're largely figurative statements.  It doesn't have to be Tor.  It doesn't have to be guarding.  That's all super specific information that would only become relevant if the idea itself is being largely entertained.   But largely, yes.  If you're a Tor Scorpion, and you've been a Tor Scorpion for five years, or two years, or whatever-the-number-you-want, you'd likely have picked up some things about <insert trademark>.

Now for that next section, I just don't even know what the hell, dude.  We're sitting here talking about knowledge and traits of groups, and I use some shallow metaphor to demonstrate a point that you even said was simple enough, and you throw a physical-condition based disproof like it's a math theorem with a weird, misguided call to pathos mixed in?  You're telling me that if you hung out in a mechanic shop, not even doing anything, just observing and listening, for years, you wouldn't pick up on anything about running a shop the way they run their shop?  Or is this going to turn into a case where that's illogical because you know a guy who was blindfolded and held in a mechanic shop for two weeks against his will and he learned nothing?

[triste]

you lose just as many players due to over-defining roleplay

Quick question, why are many of your posts arguing for rigidly defining roleplay then with simplistic notions like "People in House Tor are good at guarding. They get a bonus to guard." Seems like you are asking for staff to do something that you correctly state causes us to lose players. Yeah, let's not do that!

You -will- get some of it rubbing off on you, like a coder on a football team.  You code.  That's your motivation.  But you're surrounded by people who play this game, and play it really well, and once in awhile, expect you to play it too.  You're gonna learn some things about it just by being there.

Oh, I would have loved to tell this to my ex, a coder, who passed away at age 23 due to an inherited heart condition. If you just hung around people with high endurance like football players, my deceased love and coder friend, your heart would still be beating today.

No, Armaddict... it doesn't work that way. He's dead. No amount of endurance training could fix his malformed heart. How I wish your arguments were logically true, but they are not.

Realism can be heartbreaking, but I prefer realism because it leads to better roleplaying.

...I don't really even grasp where this comes from.  No.  I do not define roleplay, I argue against the narrowing of the definition of roleplay. I have been incredibly all-inclusive in regards to what kinds of players should be here for a long time.  It's literally a recurring theme that seems to have escaped you.  And while I use examples from Tor, they're largely figurative statements.  It doesn't have to be Tor.  It doesn't have to be guarding.  That's all super specific information that would only become relevant if the idea itself is being largely entertained.   But largely, yes.  If you're a Tor Scorpion, and you've been a Tor Scorpion for five years, or two years, or whatever-the-number-you-want, you'd likely have picked up some things about <insert trademark>.

Now for that next section, I just don't even know what the hell, dude.  We're sitting here talking about knowledge and traits of groups, and I use some shallow metaphor to demonstrate a point that you even said was simple enough, and you throw a physical-condition based disproof like it's a math theorem with a weird, misguided call to pathos mixed in?  You're telling me that if you hung out in a mechanic shop, not even doing anything, just observing and listening, for years, you wouldn't pick up on anything about running a shop the way they run their shop?  Or is this going to turn into a case where that's illogical because you know a guy who was blindfolded and held in a mechanic shop for two weeks against his will and he learned nothing?

Uh, yeah, it's just a fact that a legally braindead person left on life-support in a mechanic's shop wouldn't become a good mechanic by proximity like you're saying they would.

A Sergeant in the Tor Scorpions might specialize in guarding, or cartography (if it hasn't been removed from game) and tactics, or night-time reconnaissance, or archery and long-ranged tactics. Why do you want to shaft 3 our of 4 of these concepts out of the skills they want just to serve that 1 in 4 concept? It's cartoonish and restrictive to give a flat bump in a clan and kills diverse, game fitting concepts.

[Armaddict]

Uh, yeah, it's just a fact that a legally braindead person left on life-support in a mechanic's shop wouldn't become a good mechanic by proximity like you're saying they would.

A Sergeant in the Tor Scorpions might specialize in guarding, or cartography (if it hasn't been removed from game) and tactics, or night-time reconnaissance, or archery and long-ranged tactics. Why do you want to shaft 3 our of 4 of these concepts out of the skills they want just to serve that 1 in 4 concept? It's cartoonish and restrictive to give a flat bump in a clan and kills diverse, game fitting concepts.

...okay, play a legally braindead person in the Tor Academy, and I'll agree you probably shouldn't pick anything up.  Most people are gonna pick something up.

It doesn't make them masters.  The numbers presented were larger than even I was thinking.  And it doesn't kill roles, the same way that you still see crafters joining non-crafting clans, or the long-time tradition of assassin-soldiers.  The presence of a bonus in something they don't plan on using, or something they don't even have, doesn't kill the role.  The role is still there.  They're even at the same disadvantage as they were before.  The only thing that changes is just that these guys learn that thing faster (the bump), and could theoretically become the best in the Known at it (if it goes higher than the normal max).

However, I actually like mansa's post, and would funnel my arguments about how viable this is or isn't over to that, which broadens the discussion to be less 'zero'd in' and lets other topics be at hand.  You and I are going into deep semantic levels on justifications, which is not particularly helpful to anything interesting.  I'm assuming you'll respond to this, triste, and maybe some other voices of disagreement for last word purposes...but again.  I like where his head's at for the thread.

Rereading the original post,  I think the idea was to have some sort of progression system within a clan structure that would give additional perks besides the current perks of progressing in clan rank:
* All clanned NPCs assists the higher ranking PC
* Additional coins on your monthly stipend
* Access to different areas of the clan bases.
* Access to a NPC follower
* Access to NPC goods distributers
* Access to Clan Items


Let's consider the T'zai Byn as an example:
When you're Rank 1 - Runner, you get access to:
#1 - Clan Base
#2 - NPC goods distributer (Cook)
#3 - Byn Clan Aba

When you're Rank 2 - Trooper, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items

When you're Rank 3 - Sergeant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items
#3 - Clan Flags (Recruiter, Leader, Banker, etc)

When you're rank 4 - Lieutenant, you get access to:
#1 - More Clan Base areas
#2 - More Byn Clan items


Are there additional perks that could be provided to those characters who progress in rank beyond the current coded perks?
Can players who reach rank 3 and 4 (and 5 and 6) of established clans get coded benefits which are unique to the fantasy/story aspect of those clans?

[triste]

I didn't reply to mansa's post because no additional clan perks are needed besides what are called for in a given roleplay situation.

I agree with staff completely in this thread. I am known for not agreeing with staff, but they are right here.

I am going to borrow one from Shabago and capitalize what actually matters here. This game is about ROLE PLAY. In a ROLE PLAY INTENSIVE game you don't see a numeric level in your skill sheet. In a ROLE PLAYING game I don't construct and lay out charts, except to minimally think about mechanics so I can focus on ROLE PLAY.

(Again staff, thanks for the clear weigh in here, it allows me to relax. And much love <3)

[mansa]

-We aren't looking to add stat boosts to clans.
-We aren't looking to add new skills to your skill list for joining a clan.
-We aren't looking to give a higher skill cap than you can otherwise get for joining a clan.

-We aren't looking for people to make new clans like the Soh.  They are desert elves and PC made desert elf clans have been prohibited for a long time now.
-We aren't looking to make things equal between IC groups.  Yes, Tor nobles might be able to get some great stuff.  That they order from Salarr.  The best makers of armor and weapons in the Known.  Who spend a lot of time on those things, cause it is Tor.  Will your PC clan be able to replicate that?  Likely not.

-Just because you are discussing it, just means you have some ideas in your heads.  No use loosing them over stuff we aren't even contemplating.

I don't think there should be perks that directly affect the core 4 stats of a character - i.e. Strength, Agility, Wisdom, and Endurance.
Additional stats, such as 'movement points', 'mana', 'hit points', and 'stun points' - I'd like to see the possibility to have items that increase/decrease these values.  Movement points are already a factor for most clan items.  I could envision a nice, comfortable undershirt that would give +3 to stun points - because you're so cool and comfortable in the desert heat, so you can concentrate better.

I don't think players should get additional skills or higher skill plateaus for the act of joining a clan, either.  I tend to want some modification tied to rank of some sort - people rank 3 get access to a special tattoo / special glove / special food.  That way it shows that characters are progressing through some sort of clan structure and becoming more ideally what the clan identity is.  Could Corporals and Sergeants of the City Militia get a +2 and a +4 to the scan skill for reaching Rank Corporal and Rank Sergeant, respectively?  Perhaps it's tied to their Clan Rank Tattoo or Cloak or Badge?  Could a Master Crafter of Salarr get access to the +5 tool from the NPC that only sells to clan members ranked 4 or higher?

[Barsook]

I agree on doing more with clan ranks at higher ranks than stat boosts. It might empower players to stick around during their character's recruit year and on. I remember seeing a post about special pins in House Salarr. Would rather see these items rather than oh, if you stick around long enough and achieve lots, you can lifeswear.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

• Barsook, I like pins and stuff - various Houses have access to them and they are, of course, meant to denote achievement. I've always liked the idea of seeing some old Salarri with some Tor pins, a couple of Kuraci pins, etc, denoting their history.


• Mansa, I think cool House-Only items that are better than other items are always a neat idea. I also approve of access to them being gated behind advanced ranks. But I don't think they should represent a House's special training. They should represent a House's special deep pockets. Cool House-Only items, really, represent the Merchant Houses' special training, be that Kurac, Salarr, or Kadius.


• Triste, we're not going to agree often, and that's fine. Since this is a thread discussing an idea that will probably never be implemented, neither of our opinions really matter, so ultimately, neither of us are going to end up winning. However, if they ever consider tossing it in, a thread like this can be used to perhaps lay out a strong blueprint for how to do it in the best way possible.
  
  And on some level you have to be able to understand this, even if you don't want to admit it; if a Silver Scorpion specializes in guarding, or cartography and tactics, or night-time reconnaissance, or archery and long-ranged tactics, and they gain access to raised caps on guard/rescue, nothing at all changes except they gained improved access to a skill. Nothing at all changes, except they are absorbing the training House Tor imparts upon them in endless lectures and training that they are already undergoing because they are Silver Scorpions.
  
  And in fact, if for some reason House Tor thinks that this particular Silver does not have to do those things, then other than having those skills on their list, nothing at all changes. If they don't work on it, then they don't use the training they've received because they don't have to. Their raised cap on shield doesn't mean anything to them, because they decided not to use it. It is, in fact, no different than a warrior-class swordsman, who chooses to only use swords, having slashing weapons at master and every other weapon skill at apprentice. They just don't use it.
  
  You keep saying things about gaining skills or higher caps on skills destroying roles, but there's just no point at which that actually happens.

Ultimately, this thread, no matter what was proposed and what evolution it's gone through, has really been about defining roles that are already defined in the world. It's a pretty simple concept, when one just considers the concept without bias. If a House (and I do note Houses here because they are keepers of written knowledge and have centuries of history behind them) is supposed to be the Master of something, then they, simply, should have the potential to be the Master of it. The Merchant Houses have their Masteries in the game already. I can't find a good reason to not have militant clans be the Masters of something.

Meso was mentioned. Meso was very good, but he would have been just as good code-wise in the Byn, or Kurac, or where ever he wanted to be that at. He wanted to play a Scorpion. As a Scorpion, he got to be a teacher and do that whole sophisticated soldier bit, but, ultimately, some drunken Bynner could have been just as good, code-wise. I struggle to see how, given a raised cap on a couple of skills because he was a Scorpion for a long period of time, anything would have changed for him or the people he trained, aside for him gaining the reward for being a long tenured Scorpion in an IC and coded manner.

I don't like items conveying bonuses that would come from training - training is about how to use those tools better than the layman. At the core, training requires time, while cool items require money. A raider shouldn't have access to training by stealing an item, they should gain access to technology by stealing an item.

I don't mind the idea of a tattoo conferring a bonus, since on a basic level, you earned it with time, and it can't be stolen. But I like the idea of raising caps more than I like bonuses to confer training, since even after the cap is raised, you still have to work to access that higher training. Tying raised caps to tats would probably be infinitely easier to implement than changing the clan code, if this ever got put in, and it would pretty much do the exact same thing.

And for the last time, I prefer skills to stats - stats are too raw. Skills have more nuance, and ultimately are taught, which again, is the whole point of this thread; skills taught by masters of the art. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only reasons stats have been mentioned by anybody is because we're just talking about the concept, not the reality.

[Barsook]

Speaking about pins, were they ever awarded? In the 12 years of playing, I don't recall seeing any. Or I didn't look hard enough.

+1 to skills instead of stats, it gives more reason for an combat elite groups in game which people want back and certain skills denote what that elite group masters.

I guess the next questions are which skill for which group? And which group can be playable for IC and OOC reasons?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeah, they're in. They're part of at least three clans, and I've earned awards in two of them. Hell, I helped write some of them. Even on my current character, I've noticed a few people with the pin-board items around, like a sash or braid or such. Just gotta keep your eyes peeled. And when you see them, ask them about their pins - there's probably a story attached to them.

I've got to head to work, so no time to hash out group specializations, but I'll certainly have myself a think about it over the course of the day, and I'll try to have a shot at it when I get back tonight, along with reasoning behind it.

[triste]

I guess the next questions are which skill for which group? And which group can be playable for IC and OOC reasons?

The great thing about the decision staff posted here is we don't have to waste our time asking and answering these immersion breaking questions and we can just focus on roleplay.

One interesting thing about every argument posted here in favor of [stat/skill/crotch] bumps comes with a counter-argument that predates the argument in favor. One thing people often complain about [before they quit playing for good] are ultra-entrenched long lived PCs that you have no choice but to avoid if you don't want to deal with them. You can't kill them, you're in Allanak, so if they've killed your character 3 times in a row, you just have to avoid Allanak. A system like this would reinforce that entrenchment. But a lack of fairness and inequality fits the setting, you say! Yes. But do it in a way that creates roleplay rather than killing it.

A common sort of news article you will see IRL is "Karate Black Belt Killed in Fist Fight," or "Boxing Champion Robbed at Knifepoint." These articles are widely published not only because it's ironic, but what is MOST ironic is that if people used their brains these outcomes are actually totally unironic and expected. Does gaining "levels" and becoming a "black belt" actually give someone a bonus to fighting? Absolutely not.

So why do we want magic levels and black belts that give you +2 to the Kick skill when it's something ludicrous and only a 6 year old fan of the Karate Kid would believe in? Our game is more sophisticated than that and thankfully staff recognize it.

[triste]

Seriously, if stat-boosts existed IRL... Caesar would have never been stabbed because of his sweet +10 to parry and +5 Caesar armor. Joan Of Arc would have never been burned alive because her communion with God gave her +10 resistance to magickal effects and fire and she skipped off the witch's pyre. Franz Ferdinand would have absorbed those bullets like the Liquid Metal Terminator and we would have no world wars.

Yes. The beautiful thing about Armageddon is we don't have silly scenes like the above, but we have scenes more suited to reality and engaging conflict. A 'rinther can get paid to kill a Noble, and if they are good enough and succeed, be immortalized as the 'rinther [who had no fancy skill boosts] and changed the Known World. Let's keep that plot on the table for everyone rather than killing dozens of plots so that an elite few can bedazzle their score sheets. The 'rinther doesn't have a fair chance in either system, but at least in one the 'rinther can work within realistic constraints. No immersion-breaking, superhero like plots, thanks!

[mansa]

I guess the next questions are which skill for which group? And which group can be playable for IC and OOC reasons?

So why do we want magic levels and black belts that give you +2 to the Kick skill when it's something ludicrous and only a 6 year old fan of the Karate Kid would believe in? Our game is more sophisticated than that and thankfully staff recognize it.

Because I've trained my whole life for it, thrown 10,000 kicks, climbed the highest mountain and searched out the master teacher of the roundhouse, and she herself indoctrinated me into her house and punished me for an addition two years until, finally, at the very end of a week long sparring match, I can make claim that my roundhouse can defeat any other.

I can either do the following:
#1 - log everything, send it in, request to have a skill bump to the kick skill.
#2 - have an approved fantasy "master" be able to distribute a skill bump automatically after reaching a certain rank (after an immortal manually promotes the character to rank "master kick")
#3 - have an approved fantasy "master" be able to distribute a skill bump automatically after applying a tattoo of +2 kicks.

or #4
There is no effect for all the roleplaying training, your kick skill is still the same proficiency as everyone else in the game.

You are suggesting #4 - "everybody is equal"

[triste]

You are suggesting #4 - "everybody is equal"

I am not suggesting everyone is equal.

I am suggesting the slogan of the game is Murder, Corruption, Betrayal and not Skill Bumps, Guild Levels, and Sweet Gainz. I literally say in my arguments "The 'rinther doesn't have a fair chance in either system," including what I am advocating for. Happens to be what staff are advocating for.

[triste]

I was trying really hard to empathize with the opposing side and I suddenly realized it's because you guys are capping out your skills. Sorry that's why it's been hard for me to empathize! I don't have a lot of time to play and focus on roleplaying, so I think I've capped out my skills once, ever, on a character.

I see how you think I am arguing for the "Everyone is the Same" position. I'm really not. I've never seen this elite tier where everyone has capped out their skills and are the same. I don't know what to say other than if you've reached that, congrats!

[Edit, addition]: Seriously and sincerely, if you reach that end game, congrats. Your maneuvers become about politics and intrigue alone now. You are a powerful, well positioned piece on the chess board. Yes, you might get killed, and it might feel unfair because you were some elite Lieutenant. This is the way of chess. Archdukes get killed IRL. In Armageddon, the only people who get magickal powers are Templars who get them from the Highlord. It is harsh, but that is the setting.

[mansa]

I was trying really hard to empathize with the opposing side and I suddenly realized it's because you guys are capping out your skills. Sorry that's why it's been hard for me to empathize! I don't have a lot of time to play and focus on roleplaying, so I think I've capped out my skills once, ever, on a character.

I see how you think I am arguing for the "Everyone is the Same" position. I'm really not. I've never seen this elite tier where everyone has capped out their skills and are the same. I don't know what to say other than if you've reached that, congrats!

[Edit, addition]: Seriously and sincerely, if you reach that end game, congrats. Your maneuvers become about politics and intrigue alone now. You are a powerful, well positioned piece on the chess board. Yes, you might get killed, and it might feel unfair because you were some elite Lieutenant. This is the way of chess. Archdukes get killed IRL. In Armageddon, the only people who get magickal powers are Templars who get them from the Highlord. It is harsh, but that is the setting.

I thought it was pretty clear from the original post we're talking about clan leaders, progression with long term affiliation, and retention of long term characters.

[Riev]

The more I think about this, the more I'm on board for just flat skill increases through RP. The caveat being, it has to have structure around it and not be "staff like this PC so they get +10 slashing skill".

While I do prefer items to give bonuses, allowing more interaction, that seems beside the point of the original post.

I keep coming back to "Why join House Tor if the Byn is open?" Byn provides more opportunity for sparring and coded increases, and a schedule that emphasizes interaction. House Tor is (usually) low population and is more of a prestige-RP clan.

So maybe if you reach a certain rank in the Scorpions, you get a structured skill increase that emphasizes the focus of the clan/training/whatever. Maybe Byn doesn't offer that. Maybe a PC Clan focused in baked goods CAN provide an increase in Cooking skill if it gets to the MMH status.

[triste]

Lotion posted a great video about fundamental problems in game design. You are advocating for the MMORPG scenario where long lived players amass heaps of power in a way that stifles the opportunities for other characters in a way that hurts gameplay for everyone. Be careful what you wish for fellahs.

I keep coming back to "Why join House Tor if the Byn is open?" Byn provides more opportunity for sparring and coded increases, and a schedule that emphasizes interaction. House Tor is (usually) low population and is more of a prestige-RP clan.

Going to write the GDB post reply someone is going to post in the year 2021 or 2022 when staff become bored enough to implement this.

Why is no one joining the Byn or Garrison anymore, or when they do they leave right away to join House Tor? Isn't this a roleplaying game? We need intrinsic motivations for character development besides stats. Because of the hiring cap on Tor, it's basically a waiting game in the Byn for transferring to Tor and there hasn't been an inspiring Byn unit in years.

Riev is a smart man and a veteran player, so he put usually in parentheses. Tor thrived naturally when Meso and other great elites who could bestow their eliteness were there. I am so glad I could earn my skills through great roleplay with Meso of House Tor rather than in a bread line for powergamers.

[Armaddict]

Quote
Why is no one joining the Byn or Garrison anymore, or when they do they leave right away to join House Tor? Isn't this a roleplaying game? We need intrinsic motivations for character development besides stats. Because of the hiring cap on Tor, it's basically a waiting game in the Byn for transferring to Tor and there hasn't been an inspiring Byn unit in years.

Riev is a smart man and a veteran player, so he put usually in parentheses. Tor thrived naturally when Meso and other great elites who could bestow their eliteness were there. I am so glad I could earn my skills through great roleplay with Meso of House Tor rather than in a bread line for powergamers.

First off...that GDB post would be answered pretty easily:
Tor is selective.  It's not strange that strong military-oriented characters are lined up to try and get in.  Most of you will not make the cut and will have to work to impress someone to get an in.

That's how that scenario plays out, in that weird-case scenario where you think everyone in the game except you will just default to min-maxing in every way shape and form.  Tor becomes actually able to afford to decline people without it damaging the clan.  They become the premier military in Allanak.  Which is...you know...what the documentation says they are.

As far as Meso, I really find it kinda funny that you keep on bringing that up.  Me and 7DV were the main nobles of Tor in that era.  Slipshod was the Tor noble in the long period beforehand where there wasn't a Meso (that I recall?  Maybe Meso was around then too).  Meso was really good at combat.  He was also the first actually 'buff' scorpion in like a decade.  The nobles playing in Tor were routinely dealing with issues of recruitment and documented value of Tor vs coded value of Tor.  It's great that you enjoyed that roleplay under Meso, because guess what?  That wouldn't stop.  This in no way fights against that roleplay continuing.  What it -does- do is ease a problem that we had...which is building an elite unit that has less exposure to training opportunities (it waxes and wanes pretty hard depending on the militia), and having to feel iffy on providing access to newer players due to the knowledge of code required to actually show some sort of eliteness.  If you were deep in that role, then you probably noticed just how many different lectures and ideas were in the forum about formations, code discussion, strategies, procedures, and so on and so forth. 

The continued assertion that any code that reinforces the game world stops RP is fallacious at best.  This isn't taking someone with 0 skill and giving them a 100.  This isn't 'rush into this clan, get the bonus, leave and keep the bonus'.  This is 'Oh.  You've come a long way, you've been part of this elite unit in <whatever> for long enough to be considered a core part of it.  Yes, you have specialization in this now.  Have a +5 in it.'
BUT THAT'S UNFAIR ADVANTAGE?!  IS IT?!  No.  Not if different groups are getting different things that fit their own reputations.  Seeing <rarely achieved character of maxxed out scorpion> vs <rarely achieved character of maxxed out lyksae warrior> will still be the same fight.  But units of those groups will likely fight differently, which is...fitting, is it not?

[Spider]

Gain access to muls, magickers, and sorcerers through long term play and trust is okay, but gain a skill, or a bump to a skill, through long term play and trust in a clan is roleplay stiflingly unfair?    What a joke.

Really like the idea of a clan tattoo conferring a skill, skill bump, or both.  My imagination can see lots of opportunities for fun roleplay and gameplay from that.