Clan bonuses via code?

[Armaddict]

I can be totally mistaken, and I mean this in a totally non-offensive way.

I think there is a suitable portion of the population that really hates the idea that gear/valuables can lead to things happening in the game.  In other words, that people's desire for -items-, or the recovery of items, drives entire plotlines...that can be awkward for some people to get behind.  Unfortunately it's also an entire portion of whatever-the-fuck that player-archtype rating is.  The collector, the people who like getting cool, unique, or hard to get items.

I think that's that particular idea gets pushback more often than not, if I read between the lines (which is why I may be mistaken).  I have no problems with it, but prefer membership or rank-based because...I hate the idea that you have to put on a disguise?  You stop knowing how to do that thing.  It's a fairly transient bonus, that way, as opposed to the purpose to me, which is...your clan trains you in this, you get specialized in it.  That shouldn't change if you wear silks instead of your armor.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm with the Addict - I'd rather clan bonuses be matched to clan ranks, and be permanent. They're nothing game breaking about it. It's just role-enforcing. That's not to say gear shouldn't offer bonuses, or that some clans might have better gear, but ... being a member of a clan for a long time and doing some climbing could mean something great for us stat-bois.

[triste]

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

[williamson]

It's my opinion that bonuses granted from objects, weapons, and gear should generally be very minimal. It's better for such bonuses to be linked to objects rather than clan. This allows others a chance to obtain them via a variety of options, both good and bad. It would be more logical for extended training and experience to grant a skill boost be done by staff instead of clan rank. Once you have the said knowledge, you should not oddly lose it if you leave the clan. However, leaving a clan that's invested heavily in your character may have consequences.

[Armaddict]

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

[triste]

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

Why not do this in a way that generates roleplay, like a room that enhances learning from training like another poster offered in this thread?

This all comes down to incentives, and I fear you might not be considering the full impact of these incentives. To continue with your Tor Scorpion example, if you place a mechanism like this in game, suddenly everyone would want to join the Tor Scorpions and not the Byn. Suddenly, we now have an imbalanced game world where everyone is trying to be a Green Beret and no one is serving in the Infantry, and how is that good for game realism or plots? Newsflash, it's not good for plots, because you are adding a roleplay-devoid meta-effect.

And anyone might retort, "Well, the Byn will get stat boosts, too!" Uh huh. I just pity whatever clan gets overlooked and has no stat boosts or a crappy one. Suddenly you'll have scenes like the one I posted where people defy their character concepts and destroy plots in order to protect their special stat boosts.

And, of course, this completely de-incentivizes mobilizing players and plots outside of a clan. Not only does it de-incentivize it, it stacks odds against these groups further.

We want people to make decisions based on plots and convincing roleplay, not max statz.

[Narf]

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

I think this brings up an interesting point.

Wouldn't the best way to exemplify the training and rigor provided by a clan, be to give them access to coded ways to train and improve skills that no one else gets?

Honestly if you gave a noble's guard a small bonus to guard and parry for being clanned as a noble's guard, but then gave them no way to improve those skills it wouldn't mean bupkiss. The Bynner in the above example would still be hands down better than they'd ever become. Furthermore, giving clans special training options would be the most straightforward and immersive way of giving them the skills because... well that's what's actually happening, right?

[triste]

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

I think this brings up an interesting point.

Wouldn't the best way to exemplify the training and rigor provided by a clan, be to give them access to coded ways to train and improve skills that no one else gets?

Honestly if you gave a noble's guard a small bonus to guard and parry for being clanned as a noble's guard, but then gave them no way to improve those skills it wouldn't mean bupkiss. The Bynner in the above example would still be hands down better than they'd ever become. Furthermore, giving clans special training options would be the most straightforward and immersive way of giving them the skills because... well that's what's actually happening, right?

This is basically the idea that Dar posted, which I also alluded to in my reply. It's a good idea. If I had to rank these ideas, it's [1] this idea, [2] items with skill bumps like Riev mentions, and [3] flat skill bumps.

Flat skill bumps offer nothing in terms of roleplay. Logically and definitively they hurt roleplay because it instills a meta-effect on characters that has no materialized or interactable form in game.

But a training area, gear, or some combination thereof is something that actually creates roleplay.

[Kyviantre]

Training areas sound very...combaty, and like they are going to require two players.

But that is coming from me having been a Tor Scorp, and had a Warlord who wasn't a great match for timezones unfortunately, so nobody else to train against (good RP-based training when they were around though, I remember that fondly and it has been years!).

These high-tier fancy combat clans are unlikely to have multiple players in (certainly not enough for a guaranteed sync, and definitely definitely not enough for folks that are off-peak anyway), so that needs to be taken into account.

Assuming we're training stats...not sure how you'd train wisdom...

[Delirium]

What if there were practice commands that checked your skills; "practice dual wield" would set you into a workout mode with a basic start and end emote that you can flesh out with emotes of your own. Different clans might have different caps to how high you can get with solo practice in varying skills. Tor might favor spear and shield, Borsail two handed and slashing, Byn might have a more even spread, etc.

They would work a lot like crafting skills, except they'd use the practice command rather than a craft command.

Sparring would always be preferable to solo practice due to various combat code factors, but that would still help with two issues in one go; low clan population not providing sparring partners, and the disparity in which mages can solo-train but combat characters cannot.

[triste]

What if there were practice commands that checked your skills; "practice dual wield" would set you into a workout mode with a basic start and end emote that you can flesh out with emotes of your own. Different clans might have different caps to how high you can get with solo practice in varying skills. Tor might favor spear and shield, Borsail two handed and slashing, Byn might have a more even spread, etc.

They would work a lot like crafting skills, except they'd use the practice command rather than a craft command.

Sparring would always be preferable to solo practice due to various combat code factors, but that would still help with two issues in one go; low clan population not providing sparring partners, and the disparity in which mages can solo-train but combat characters cannot.

Loooooooove it.

[Armaddict]

Why not do this in a way that generates roleplay, like a room that enhances learning from training like another poster offered in this thread?

Sometimes threads like this get brought up, and this is one of the standard responses, and it naturally confuses me because the condition of the thread being made is that the roleplay is already there, we're looking at things to reinforce it.  i.e. 'This house talks about being the premiere of this, but codewise, nothing reinforces that.'  Suggesting there needs to be more roleplay involved is kind of missing the point.

Flat skill bumps offer nothing in terms of roleplay. Logically and definitively they hurt roleplay because it instills a meta-effect on characters that has no materialized or interactable form in game.

Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles, you'd be hard-pressed to meta anything here.  It just becomes something that fits the role and accentuates the 'style' of the clan.  If anything, gear items is stranger...instilling the knowledge of a clan upon someone because they took a pair of spurs off of a body, or a cloak off a drunken scorpion.

I'm not certain I really see your concern here, or why it's even there unless you're totally overthinking it.

ETA:

I'm with the Addict

I think the reason we agree on this (It's 7DV in case people don't wanna scroll to see who said it) is we both played a lot of Tor Nobles, and that conundrum becomes very present given the constraints of the Scorpions.  It's something where the documentation/game world is simply not really given representation...which makes this odd spot where what we ended up doing was taking an intellectual approach and essentially teaching different uses of code that are rarely applicable given the types of engagements they are likely to find.

[triste]

Why not do this in a way that generates roleplay, like a room that enhances learning from training like another poster offered in this thread?

Sometimes threads like this get brought up, and this is one of the standard responses, and it naturally confuses me because the condition of the thread being made is that the roleplay is already there, we're looking at things to reinforce it.  i.e. 'This house talks about being the premiere of this, but codewise, nothing reinforces that.'  Suggesting there needs to be more roleplay involved is kind of missing the point.

Flat skill bumps offer nothing in terms of roleplay. Logically and definitively they hurt roleplay because it instills a meta-effect on characters that has no materialized or interactable form in game.

Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles, you'd be hard-pressed to meta anything here.  It just becomes something that fits the role and accentuates the 'style' of the clan.  If anything, gear items is stranger...instilling the knowledge of a clan upon someone because they took a pair of spurs off of a body, or a cloak off a drunken scorpion.

I'm not certain I really see your concern here, or why it's even there unless you're totally overthinking it.

ETA:

I'm with the Addict

I think the reason we agree on this (It's 7DV in case people don't wanna scroll to see who said it) is we both played a lot of Tor Nobles, and that conundrum becomes very present given the constraints of the Scorpions.  It's something where the documentation/game world is simply not really given representation...which makes this odd spot where what we ended up doing was taking an intellectual approach and essentially teaching different uses of code that are rarely applicable given the types of engagements they are likely to find.

Why didn't you address Delirium's proposal? It's a wonderful synthesis of both my concern -- AKA hating immersion breaking skill bumpz -- and your concern -- AKA plz give me lvl based skill bumpz -- but in a way anyone can tolerate because at least the skill bumpz are earned.

Why don't you also address Dar's proposal? It again is a good compromise between yours and mine.

People are offering compromises because unearned skill boosts aren't palatable. Refute their points, or compromise with them, or your points don't hold water my friend.

[slipshod]

Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles...

I think this is an important point too, and really the concerns I've seen in this thread about what happens when someone leaves the clan that gave them the boost would almost never come up in the types of clans and roles we (Aruven, Armaddict, 7DV) are contemplating.  In most cases these would be roles that were role call/special app, or who advanced through ranks over IC years.  While it is an epic story arc sometimes for a character like that to leave the clan they spent their life training with, and go on to something else, it is and should be rare enough to not be a big hindrance to our brainstorming here.

I skimmed through that earlier thread I linked where some of the same people were discussing the same thing in 2015.  One of Armaddict's examples in that thread was a 'Retreat' ability for a Tor (or Tor trained) commander.  Maybe that would grant a 'flee' bonus to the other clanned PCs in the room once 'used' by the commander (tie in that new assess room code?).  Maybe a senior oashi mage would have a Meditative Chant they could recite to make the mana regen more quickly of the clanned mages around them, etc.

I can't address many of Triste's points because - and I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic - I'm just baffled by them.  I don't understand how some of these suggestions "actively hurt RP", or would drive people to quit, or the pejorative idea of adding "cool" flavor to make the three parts of the world more closely align (Documentation, Code support, People's RP).

If I can read a little into the OP's intent here it's less about giving skill bumps to PCs in elite fighting clans (which we can do with special apps and such), but more about giving them something unique to draw a distinction between massively skilled and 'elite'.  I remember when I played a Tor noble, he wanted to hire a liaison from the Sand Lord's forces to teach the Scorpions how to 'blind fight' as a unit in sandstorms, a la Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben.  This was an attempt to use an existing but underutilized code 'blind fighting' to manifest the eliteness of the Scorpions.  It never really went anywhere.

[triste]

Considering that most of the roles that receive anything substantial (at least by documentation/reputation) are lifelong roles...

I think this is an important point too, and really the concerns I've seen in this thread about what happens when someone leaves the clan that gave them the boost would almost never come up in the types of clans and roles we (Aruven, Armaddict, 7DV) are contemplating.  In most cases these would be roles that were role call/special app, or who advanced through ranks over IC years.  While it is an epic story arc sometimes for a character like that to leave the clan they spent their life training with, and go on to something else, it is and should be rare enough to not be a big hindrance to our brainstorming here.

I skimmed through that earlier thread I linked where some of the same people were discussing the same thing in 2015.  One of Armaddict's examples in that thread was a 'Retreat' ability for a Tor (or Tor trained) commander.  Maybe that would grant a 'flee' bonus to the other clanned PCs in the room once 'used' by the commander (tie in that new assess room code?).  Maybe a senior oashi mage would have a Meditative Chant they could recite to make the mana regen more quickly of the clanned mages around them, etc.

I can't address many of Triste's points because - and I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic - I'm just baffled by them.  I don't understand how some of these suggestions "actively hurt RP", or would drive people to quit, or the pejorative idea of adding "cool" flavor to make the three parts of the world more closely align (Documentation, Code support, People's RP).

If I can read a little into the OP's intent here it's less about giving skill bumps to PCs in elite fighting clans (which we can do with special apps and such), but more about giving them something unique to draw a distinction between massively skilled and 'elite'.  I remember when I played a Tor noble, he wanted to hire a liaison from the Sand Lord's forces to teach the Scorpions how to 'blind fight' as a unit in sandstorms, a la Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben.  This was an attempt to use an existing but underutilized code 'blind fighting' to manifest the eliteness of the Scorpions.  It never really went anywhere.

Every time I post my complaints, people who aren't baffled or obtuse, that is, people who understand my argument and are great roleplayers like Dar or Delirium follow up with a proposal that compromises my concern and this strange desire for MMORPG skills in a RPI.

People are offering compromises because they read my point, understand it, and need to argue things towards the direction I want a bit (that direction being one towards solid RP).

But since I am being insulted by people "honestly" finding my points "baffling" I'll give up for now, cheers to the people who agreed with me earlier in the thread (I won't need to quote the times you said you agreed with me to prove my point, but thanks).

[Armaddict]

Whoa, dude, relax.  We didn't just ignore proposals.  We just replied to the things that either ran wholely or partly contrary to our views to further address that point, or that we had insightful expansion to.  It's a chronological posting, sometimes things further back are what catch our eye rather than the most recent thing that we're either okay with or neutral on.  You've already spoken with me in PM before, you know that I'm not trying to shut you up, so just...remember that, when we disagree on things.

The question remains to be answered in this thread as to what this would add to the game and why this is needed. Currently only one argument has been laid out: that it "would be cool" for "stat-bois."

I've seen good players quit because of the inability to start plots from the ground up and change the game world. Let's not add changes that ossify power structures in the game world because I've heard we need to do the opposite. What is "cool" for "stat-bois" is uncool for a lot of people who have quit the game.

The main reason is for role-enrichment.  Not for hunting for additional stats, but to actually display why certain clans 'do what they do'.  The example used was Tor Scorpions...codewise, they are not as likely to get skilled as a Bynner, despite having all the resources made to them and higher-level study.  There have been workarounds for this in the past, but it'd honestly be so much easier to just say 'If you become a full Red Scorpion, you have these skills maximums bumped by blah blah amount'.  That's not for stat-bois, that's...just making the setup of the world receive code reinforcement.

I think this brings up an interesting point.

Wouldn't the best way to exemplify the training and rigor provided by a clan, be to give them access to coded ways to train and improve skills that no one else gets?

Honestly if you gave a noble's guard a small bonus to guard and parry for being clanned as a noble's guard, but then gave them no way to improve those skills it wouldn't mean bupkiss. The Bynner in the above example would still be hands down better than they'd ever become. Furthermore, giving clans special training options would be the most straightforward and immersive way of giving them the skills because... well that's what's actually happening, right?

It is indeed valid, but I think it also kind of fixes itself.  Realize that I speak largely in terms of Tor because of the problem that I mentioned before...elite military that has less training options due to an understandably smaller base that overall, focuses less on sparring than other combat heavy clans.  Unlike those other combat heavy clans, it is usually a long term role rather than one that can easily be cut short.

Providing alternative means of training is also an idea.  But that really just attempts to put it in the same place.  What my assumption is, the thing I'm implying, is that if there were varying bonuses for clans that exemplified their in game reputations/roles, it would naturally draw on the pool of people who fit there.  For Tor, higher maxes means you'd draw in more people who are looking to invest in the long term to hit above and beyond where others go in exchange for their loyalty.  The Academy, the place that charges exorbitant amounts of coin to train someone, would have a leg to stand on as far as why they charge so much; they really do make the elite product, not the same thing as a Bynner.

Some clans might give an immediate boost (Pure Theory, not a deadset proposal: The Guild gives stealth bonuses immediately, due to being more established in the dregs), some might have specialized gear access (Merchant houses in particular), some might mess with maxxes on certain types of skills (Tor, Lyksae, etc), some might do this or that.  It's a lot less about finding something that can be manipulated, and a lot more on making most members of a group actual or potential representation of that group in the game world.

[triste]

Okay.

I swear on a [redacted] this is my final protest of your idea.

My favorite clans in game, the Soh, the Dust Runners, the Crimson Wind, were player made.

You are killing the chances of player made clans like that ever existing again. Why on earth are you advocating for that. You told me in a message, Armaddict, that the only people your idea hurts are independents. Fine, let's go with that: why hurt independents?

Brokkr also implied it's fine to hurt independent players when he asked if I was asking for fairness. I am not asking for fairness, but I am gravely concerned we will no longer see great clans like the Soh spontaneously form if we add something like this.

People keep telling me to be quiet, I'll let others speak up. But please don't kill inspiring gameplay elements -- like allowing players to form clans and tribes that have a fighting chance.

[triste]

Shows how much [redacteds] are worth to me, last post for real.

Here's my effort to compromise with your idea: It's only alright if you provide clear documentation for how player-made clans and tribes can access this feature. And, player-made family role-calls, player made clans, etc can qualify automatically if they have up to six unclanned players involved or something like that. You need clear, achievable rules and need to not screw over independents and player-made clans, one of the best things about this game.

Ideally you all also heed Delirium and Dar's feedback on how to implement your idea, to avoid stupid roleplay like "I got a promotion to Sergeant, now I feel StRoNgEr and am wearing all Silt Horror plate."

[mansa]

If you believe that the primary reason players play ArmageddonMUD, and the primary draw for roleplaying characters is to become the most powerful skillful character in the game...
   I think you're forgetting about the other player types in Bartle's taxonomy of player types.  People play for many different reasons, and it's not always the KILLER archtype.

No.  If Tor gets a standard clam weapon that gives + to offense, it won't immediately stop players from creating a new clam for themselves.

[triste]

If you believe that the primary reason players play ArmageddonMUD, and the primary draw for roleplaying characters is to become the most powerful skillful character in the game...
   I think you're forgetting about the other player types in Bartle's taxonomy of player types.  People play for many different reasons, and it's not always the KILLER archtype.

No.  If Tor gets a standard clam weapon that gives + to offense, it won't immediately stop players from creating a new clam for themselves.

What are the guidelines for a player-made clan becoming an official clan, anyway? Just searched docs and the request tool, no category or docs exist for this.

If you are going to formalize the definition of a clan (or in mansa speech, clam) with +2 to ____, then you need to formalize the guidelines for independents / player made clans existing and applying for these sweet bonuses. Otherwise the implication is that player formed groups can just get bent, and harming that part of the game would be disastrous.

[mansa]

What are the guidelines for a player-made clan becoming an official clan, anyway? Just searched docs and the request tool, no category or docs exist for this.
....

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Stage%205

There's a couple things I'd like to point out in the document:

"Must have the backing/sponsorship of at least one major group in- game."
"Must be approved through local legislative body (the Allanaki Senate or the Tuluki Triumvirate). Your sponsor will bring this up on your behalf."

"You should already be communicating with your clam staff on a regular basis, so you and they will likely both be aware once you are at the IC level to even start mentioning the prospect of pursuing a Minor Merchant House establishment. Talk to your clam staff and seek their approval. Note that your communication with staff/history as a player/history with this PC are all taken into account for that approval. If there is some area that staff feel is not good enough for you to proceed with this, you will be given advice at this point on how to improve as well as a time ultimatum for that improvement. (This should be specific and measurable.)

Assuming staff gives approval, you now will need to find a sponsoring group in-game. This should be a group with sway in the local legislative body. In order to have them sponsor your bid to become a minor merchant house, you should expect a quid pro quo arrangement. In exchange for their support, you may lose some autonomy, profits, or the like...whether temporarily or for a lengthy period of time. This is where IC conflict may also come into play. Have you developed enemies over the years? Who are their friends? Are they connected? Do you have enough support (or at least enough indifference) to get your bid through the Senate or the Triumvirate?"

"You can now work with staff to set up documentation for your clam. Your clam's documentation will be a collaborative process with staff, but ultimately subject to staff approval, as it has to meet standards for the gameworld. You can also set up secret documentation just for clam leaders or successors."

I've highlighted a bunch of points.   #1 is communicating with the staff.


Again - there are some clams that exist in the game that have the ability to almost instant kill any player.  The existence of these coded perks do not make all the players immediately want to make characters that only join that clam.  The game is not equal or fair with the current clams.

[triste]

How about documentation for tribes, etc, seems to be missing. And how about documentation for these bonuses? Do we want new players to come in and see "House Tor gets +2 to strength," try to join Tor and fail because it's elite, and repeatedly run into this roleplay wall (and probably quit playing Armageddon) because we decided to add clumsy bonuses that augment gameplay?

[triste]

Another new counterpoint: what if you want to join some clan that gives a strength bonus, but play a concept that fits the clan fine RP-wise but doesn't fit the clan's stat boost at all? Example, it's largely a military clan, but they also need some scouts, and you're playing a scout who isn't particularly strong but still useful to the unit. Why do we need a tacky, videogamey stat boost applied to all characters? Dar and Delirium's idea is at least opt in, and again, roleplay generating and rooted in roleplaying. You can play a scout who wouldn't be strong and still fit the clan. You'll have balanced, healthy clans. All role assorting should be driven by roleplay in an RPI, not invisible gameplay bonuses.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've got to be honest here; it's confusing how a clan member getting a permanent bonus for half a R/L year of playing a role could, in any way, keep someone from doing whatever they want to do, be that creating an indie clan or joining another established clan. When you play Armageddon, you've already commited to RP first, and not even the most stat-focused player that survives this game for years and years can really be called a hack-n-slasher. They've come to roleplay, even if only on a basic level. Even if you roleplay just to gain stats, you're still roleplaying here. Otherwise, you're off to another game that bothers to reward your stat grind.

I can not contemplate a player who would change their concept solely so that they could gain access to a Tor Scorpion boost to skills after months and months of playing. Unless they wanted to play a Tor Scorpion. I can't imagine how the months-long struggle to gain rank in the clan in order to get a stat boost would be preferable to just going out and kick-boxing spiders if they really want the stats.

I don't think physical stats are something I'm interested in boosting via clan stat-boosts. It's skills, and access to skills.

For instance, a Kuraci Outrider might be able to track at first rank, scan at second rank, blind fight at 3rd. You'd either add the skill to them if they don't already have it, with a lower cap, or give a boost to either the cap or the existing level if they do already have it. It doesn't matter what concept you play - all Outriders would be taught these things, as part of being an Outrider. And since being an Outrider rather than a Regular would involve at least months of play, I can't see how it would hurt anything at all. They've already dedicated a long portion of their lives to playing this character, with this clan. But you do know that when you get an Outrider on the trail, you've really got the best of the best.

A Tor Scorpion White might take a couple of RL months to attain the Red rank, but when they do, they get access to or a boost to guarding, meaning that when you've got Scorpions with you, you are sooper safe. And if you've got a Silver, a player with maybe a whole year's worth of playtime under their belt, with access to or a boost to shield, you've got a Bulwark on your side, and you can rove the gith-arrow infested plains with Falish abandon. Nothing happens to the game world aside from Tor being sought to protect the Highborn, at an elite level.

Yeah, I think the concept that it can hurt the world is silly. To attain these skill boosts, you've already roleplayed endless training regarding the skill, and you've spent a lot of time IC doing so.

I don't think indie clans need stat boosts. Indie clans occupy a completely different stratosphere of life. Their freedom to pursue their desires is unmatched by any solidified clan. An indie clan is freedom, and a solidified clan is structure and security.

And finally, I don't think we need these things. I do think we desire these things. I do think they fill holes in the process that allow "elite" groups to not be capable of being "elite".

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

How about documentation for tribes, etc, seems to be missing. And how about documentation for these bonuses? Do we want new players to come in and see "House Tor gets +2 to strength," try to join Tor and fail because it's elite, and repeatedly run into this roleplay wall (and probably quit playing Armageddon) because we decided to add clumsy bonuses that augment gameplay?

Who in the world, who is interested in roleplaying, is really going to stop playing because they can't join an elite organization? Maybe I'm not being empathetic or something, but this would never cross my mind, ever.