Clan bonuses via code?

[slipshod]

One thing that never fails to impress me as I grow older is the value of having "the right tool for the job".
I consider myself fairly handy, and capable of occasional Macguyver-esque flashes of inspiration,  but if I've been toiling away at some task using my improvised homemade tool or some cheap brand-X knockoff version, and someone hands me a top-of-the-line stainless steel, NASA-laser balanced, refined version of the same tool or gear, the ease and efficiency with which I can then complete the task is often such an exponential improvement that it seems like magic(k).

The idea that Merchant Houses who have been able to devote hundreds of years to refining designs, utilizing the best materials, and passing that knowledge on to future generations of workers and innovators would in turn develop far superior products that even the most dedicated and well-funded independent could not replicate or compete with in a single lifetime of effort... is not a hard pill for me to swallow, and seems to jive with IC reasoning and role play without becoming an issue of cool gear that breaks realism and immersion.

[Lotion]

If you put these badass clan bonuses on equipment then you're going to make the crimson wind way more badass. If those items are fiercely guarded from outsiders that's just an extra non meta reason for the crimson wind to wear all of your overpowered stat bonus clan gear yo ho ho

[triste]

One thing that never fails to impress me as I grow older is the value of having "the right tool for the job".
I consider myself fairly handy, and capable of occasional Macguyver-esque flashes of inspiration,  but if I've been toiling away at some task using my improvised homemade tool or some cheap brand-X knockoff version, and someone hands me a top-of-the-line stainless steel, NASA-laser balanced, refined version of the same tool or gear, the ease and efficiency with which I can then complete the task is often such an exponential improvement that it seems like magic(k).

The idea that Merchant Houses who have been able to devote hundreds of years to refining designs, utilizing the best materials, and passing that knowledge on to future generations of workers and innovators would in turn develop far superior products that even the most dedicated and well-funded independent could not replicate or compete with in a single lifetime of effort... is not a hard pill for me to swallow, and seems to jive with IC reasoning and role play without becoming an issue of cool gear that breaks realism and immersion.

I took an Italian cooking class with a friend and the instructor said exactly this.

The instructor said in Versailles the chefs picked and shaped wood/twigs carefully and masterfully to make a new whisk for every meal, then throw them out. Another story I heard about the invention of Bombe Glacée goes along these lines.

It's an interesting debate, and fully agreed it's superior to manifest clan perks in game in a way that can be roleplayed with. I am strongly opposed to flat stat boosts that are by definition OOC/meta constructs. But bonuses materialized in game that can be interacted with are great!

[triste]

Sidenote on this sidenote: if it is not possible already, allow indie crafters to make their custom crafts clan locked if they ever have the luck of forming a clan.

If they don't have the luck of forming a clan, they die with their trade secrets just like many crafters of yore have.

Besides speaking up for roleplay, my main dog in this fight is being fair to player made clans, I would only be on board if any perk given to a clan is applicable to people working on forming a player made clan as well. Elven crafters without a tribe for instance are tremendously effed over and a flat stat boost for clannies would eff them over more. But if they are able to make their own tribe and transfer their crafts over as clan crafts it is less stiffling. You have to give indies with the hope of starting a clan or competing business not necessarily a fair chance, but access to the same mechanisms and hope that they can succeed without their efforts being nipped in the bud by metagame related factors.

[Brokkr]

What about the gameworld makes you think this should be fair?

Or are you importing RL bias into the game?

[triste]

What about the gameworld makes you think this should be fair?

Or are you importing RL bias into the game?

Not at all! To quote myself: "You have to give indies with the hope of starting a clan or competing business not necessarily a fair chance." Literally, by the word, said I am not asking for fairness.

I am saying whatever mechanism to this needs to be something people can interface with and roleplay with. That necessarily makes it something all roleplayers can interact with (see Riev's thievery scenario as well).

A flat stat boost is a meta effect that only hurts roleplay, in contrast.

[Hauwke]

I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

[betweenford]

I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

[triste]

I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

This is a fact made more acute by the persistent shop inventory change. Merchants in clans, as a matter of mathematical fact, have much more earning potential. You have more diversified products in a system where demand is finitely capped per product.

[SpyGuy]

I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

This is a fact made more acute by the persistent shop inventory change. Merchants in clans, as a matter of mathematical fact, have much more earning potential. You have more diversified products in a system where demand is finitely capped per product.

Sort of.   That may be true for some clans/items but a few things keep clan items from being used as massive money makers in shops. 

1) The price shops are willing to buy it at is too low compared to the inputs. In a few cases I've seen items are vastly underpriced compared to the recipe.

2) GMH are therefore encouraged to keep the good gear out of shops so that it can be sold for higher prices because it's more exclusive. 

The real money maker for indy crafters is finding the recipes that offer 5x or more returns.  Certain crafting skills are MUCH better for this than others (I assume this is true because the economy rework is currently underway and partially done).

An unneeded and fake example based on experience. Sunlon hide has 8 unclanned crafting recipes.  It costs me 50 coins to get one and I can usually get 6 a week.  6 of those recipes sell for 40-80 coins.  One sells for 200 and the last for 250.  It only makes sense to make the two recipes that sell well and fill up shops with those.

[triste]

I know this isn't the topic, but if anything indy's need a huge nerfing. You shouldn't be able to go out and make more money grabbing rocks than by selling the best swords in the world.

tbf on the side of those indies, as an employee of salarr if you show the same dedication to your work as those gem-miners do you could make several thousand more than them off of your clancrafts alone. and the same goes for the other gmh's

This is a fact made more acute by the persistent shop inventory change. Merchants in clans, as a matter of mathematical fact, have much more earning potential. You have more diversified products in a system where demand is finitely capped per product.

Sort of.   That may be true for some clans/items but a few things keep clan items from being used as massive money makers in shops. 

1) The price shops are willing to buy it at is too low compared to the inputs. In a few cases I've seen items are vastly underpriced compared to the recipe.

2) GMH are therefore encouraged to keep the good gear out of shops so that it can be sold for higher prices because it's more exclusive. 

The real money maker for indy crafters is finding the recipes that offer 5x or more returns.  Certain crafting skills are MUCH better for this than others (I assume this is true because the economy rework is currently underway and partially done).

An unneeded and fake example based on experience. Sunlon hide has 8 unclanned crafting recipes.  It costs me 50 coins to get one and I can usually get 6 a week.  6 of those recipes sell for 40-80 coins.  One sells for 200 and the last for 250.  It only makes sense to make the two recipes that sell well and fill up shops with those.

Given that House crafters can make special clan locked recipes and all the recipes an indie makes, and given that sales volume is capped at five per item per merchant per day, House crafters have more earning potential as a mathematical and logical fact. It's just... a mathematical fact not really refutable in most circumstances that you model this scenario. Very rarely are any of these items actually unprofitable, so what Ford and I are saying here is just a fact arithmetically.

But this is a tangent that gets at a larger question.

Why is what OP asked for needed? All I see here is people want it because it would "be cool," which is not terribly good justification given it disincentivizes making player-run / independent organizations and artificially impacts roleplay. Player-run organizations are something staff have tried to incentivize given other changes, not disincentivize. Staff would also like us generally to be less obsessed with stats, for example, if you suicide characters to get better stats you will be banned. The alternate argument of maybe adding more special tools/objects for clans is also nice, and essentially something we already have. So what is the point of providing a flat stat boost / metagame incentives? How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

[Aruven]

The way you are leading the conversation around economics is kind of hurting my head to relate to the original idea.

It has nothing to do with being fun, though it could be fun. It has nothing to do with meta gaming, though its being universally acknowledged it could be abused that way in various forms.

Take a guy who's played in the AoD for 2 RL years and whatever the equivalent is in game. His coded promotion beyond sergeant in reality actually has no structure to it in the game world. There's no way for him to act and roleplay out the other perceived responsibilities of his rank in a military unit. Yet we don't want to glass ceiling cap clans. The idea is to reach into the imagination and decide what the pay offs of such an investment are for a person ICly and OOCly that would make sense befitting that particular clan in this particular gameworld.

So I guess part of the idea around theory is incentive to clan. Its not -needed- as much as just a discussion around it and the various ways it could look, which I am otherwise enjoying.

[mansa]

...How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

Imagine working as a gemmed magicker for the Citystate of Allanak, and you've progressed far in your craft.  - Because you've worn the Gem for so long, and have respect from the Red Robed templars - you are granted a spell that you can channel through Tektolnes, rather than through your element.  (But, really, once you reach rank 5 in the clan, it's automatically granted to any magicker)


Imagine you've been a clanned member of House Borsail Wyverns, and after a while, you've been granted access to a 'cage' type item that lets you subdue creatures and throw them into the cage and they cannot escape.  You can even do it successfully without the subdue skill.  (Only people in the clan can withdraw the cage item from the Borsail NPC bank)


Imagine that you're a member of a city-elf clan that historically prides itself on being able to run faster than any other city elf.  And when you wear their boots, your run speed is increased.  (The boots of swiftness are race-locked to city-elf, and the NPC merchant that sells the boots is race-locked to city-elf)


These are just ideas that can help facilitate storylines, much like equipping an axe rather than a sword can facilitate a different story to the characters involved.

[Aruven]

The other reason, is directly roleplay. Like the Tor examples given. What makes Tor appealing but also lore appropriate and what benefits could be realistic for a force like that. Then we kinda got into the GMH side.

[Aruven]

...How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

Imagine working as a gemmed magicker for the Citystate of Allanak, and you've progressed far in your craft.  - Because you've worn the Gem for so long, and have respect from the Red Robed templars - you are granted a spell that you can channel through Tektolnes, rather than through your element.  (But, really, once you reach rank 5 in the clan, it's automatically granted to any magicker)


Imagine you've been a clanned member of House Borsail Wyverns, and after a while, you've been granted access to a 'cage' type item that lets you subdue creatures and throw them into the cage and they cannot escape.  You can even do it successfully without the subdue skill.  (Only people in the clan can withdraw the cage item from the Borsail NPC bank)


Imagine that you're a member of a city-elf clan that historically prides itself on being able to run faster than any other city elf.  And when you wear their boots, your run speed is increased.  (The boots of swiftness are race-locked to city-elf, and the NPC merchant is race-locked to city-elf)


These are just ideas that can help facilitate storylines, much like equipping an axe rather than a sword can facilitate a different story to the characters involved.

Yeah, perfect. Struggling myself to articulate here.

[triste]

...How does it enrich roleplay, exactly?

Imagine working as a gemmed magicker for the Citystate of Allanak, and you've progressed far in your craft.  - Because you've worn the Gem for so long, and have respect from the Red Robed templars - you are granted a spell that you can channel through Tektolnes, rather than through your element.  (But, really, once you reach rank 5 in the clan, it's automatically granted to any magicker)


Imagine you've been a clanned member of House Borsail Wyverns, and after a while, you've been granted access to a 'cage' type item that lets you subdue creatures and throw them into the cage and they cannot escape.  You can even do it successfully without the subdue skill.  (Only people in the clan can withdraw the cage item from the Borsail NPC bank)


Imagine that you're a member of a city-elf clan that historically prides itself on being able to run faster than any other city elf.  And when you wear their boots, your run speed is increased.  (The boots of swiftness are race-locked to city-elf, and the NPC merchant is race-locked to city-elf)


These are just ideas that can help facilitate storylines, much like equipping an axe rather than a sword can facilitate a different story to the characters involved.

Yeah, perfect. Struggling myself to articulate here.

So a restatement of what myself and others have already said is perfect, agreed: items are fine, things that generate roleplay via various mechanics are fine. But not flat stat boosts, the topic in the original post. Myself and others elucidated well why that particularly is a bad idea.

Collectively we've iterated on and synthesized a good idea.

[Spider]

I'm aboard.  More ways to grow a character's code complexity IG other than the initial class/subclass choice sounds like a lot of fun.  I've always been a clan junkie.  They have a lot of value from an RP/gameplay point of view.

[mansa]

Imagine...

A Byn Sargent clan rank grants a few combat move called "Battle Shout" that will force all followers to do one of the following:
* Dismount
* Flee in a certain direction
or
* Get +1% defense for 10 minutes

A Tor Academy tattoo that grants the wearer + to scan

A House Kadius tool that grants the wielder the ability to craft House Kadius clanned items.  This tool cannot be created, but is only sold by an NPC in the clan to other clan members.

A "Guild" clan rank that grants + to listen
A "Guild" clan rank that grants shitty NPCs to spawn and assist in certain rooms if the character is in combat in that room.

A "junior noble" rank that gives + to barrier.

A "templar" rank that gives + towards poison resist.


Oh man, there's so many possibilities out there.

[triste]

Nah, no stat boosts.

A "Guild" clan rank that grants + to listen

What happens if you get dumped from a clan? You suddenly stop hearing better?

I am busting a gut thinking of how the clan-dump death will be even deadlier now. You clan dump someone and their armor gets so heavy they cannot run as a result of losing their clan +2 to strength.

If you /don't/ lose stat boosts after getting clan dumped, then some people will rotate clans and destroy plots for gains.

As already stated, most players would have even less reason to join an independent organization. We'll lose so many awesome plots that come from small player groups like that.

Whatever clan has the misfortune of only giving boosts to "dump stats" will become depopulated except by people like me who are annoyed by metagameyness destroying the game.

The community will delight in discussing which clans get which gainz either here, on discord, or on the shadowboard creating drama that again is not related to thoughtful roleplay, but is related to stats.

On board with the items, but not the stat boosts, because they are fundamentally illogical and break immersion. This is an RPI.

I'll be quiet in this thread, but there are a lot of solid reasons to not give flat stat boosts. I don't want to see the character of this game become more like World of Warcraft or what have you with the unrealistic stat boosts.

[Dar]

I'd be thrilled if training areas in clans would give boosts to learning and performance.

So crafting areas give crafting bonus to success (Might already be happening due to stationary objects)

Sparring areas give learning bonuses to people sparring in them.

I wouldnt mind having training sessions that give temporary skills.

Like for example, spending time in Byn training area, would set a flag on you that gave you subdue/bash/guard skill bonus of +10. It would be an affect that would eventually wear off with an echo of something like, "Your memories of T'zai Byn training begin to dim."   That bonus shouldnt be grandiose, but having that skill even on low levels and not having it at all is a big difference. At the same time, it'll be more then just having rank in a clan, but you'd actually need to spend time in certain locations to achieve it.

Perhaps if you do guard duty at the gates/barracks, while being AoD would give you a short lived +10 scan bonus.


Make it frequent and intricate enough, different bonuses for different clans, in different situations. Would it make it a little more gamey? +1 to whatever? Maybe. But it will also encourage clannies to spend time together in the same locale. Gather enough PCs in one place and at least two plots and four murders will occur.  Always a good thing.

[triste]

I'd be thrilled if training areas in clans would give boosts to learning and performance.

So crafting areas give crafting bonus to success (Might already be happening due to stationary objects)

Sparring areas give learning bonuses to people sparring in them.

I wouldnt mind having training sessions that give temporary skills.

Like for example, spending time in Byn training area, would set a flag on you that gave you subdue/bash/guard skill bonus of +10. It would be an affect that would eventually wear off with an echo of something like, "Your memories of T'zai Byn training begin to dim."   That bonus shouldnt be grandiose, but having that skill even on low levels and not having it at all is a big difference. At the same time, it'll be more then just having rank in a clan, but you'd actually need to spend time in certain locations to achieve it.

Perhaps if you do guard duty at the gates/barracks, while being AoD would give you a short lived +10 scan bonus.


Make it frequent and intricate enough, different bonuses for different clans, in different situations. Would it make it a little more gamey? +1 to whatever? Maybe. But it will also encourage clannies to spend time together in the same locale. Gather enough PCs in one place and at least two plots and four murders will occur.  Always a good thing.

This works. No permanent, rank based boosts though because of the clan dump scenario. It would just be so weird, you leave a clan that gave you a scan bonus and suddenly you're blind as a bat?? Why??

Okay, I'll shut up, but please, whatever you all come up with, don't kill my role play with immersion breaking stuff like that.

[Eluin]

I agree with Triste to be honest. Flat boosts to skills or stats is meh. Honestly a bit leery about items too, though, mostly because of thr already mentioned possibility of a raider decked out to the gills in them.

[Kyviantre]

Skill perks should be persistent, but they don't come from joining a clan.  They should come from a certain rank.  If you put X hours into a clan, get promoted to a level that perks start getting given, then decide to leave after...you should be keeping the buff.

Solves the clan-dump situation.  Also solves the rotating clans thing...sure, you CAN do that, but after the second clan, if you come to my clan and go "You know what, I want to join", and I know you've been in Kadius and Tor Scorpions, I'm going to ICly be thinking "...dude, are you SPYING?!".  Because that makes logical sense, while getting 2nd rank in two clans and continually leaving after makes less sense!

You could also game theory the buffs.  So you get +0.5 for rank 2, +2 for rank 3, and +5 for lifesworn (or whatever system you're using), keep the grass greener on the same side - represent your clan investing in your training to try to keep you to stay (and get you lifesworn).

Items can already be clan-only and get buffs.  You just need to mastercraft them.  But I don't like the idea of items giving you a buff (stats maybe - comfortable running shoes, lifting belts, marathon anti-chafing underoos, and...no idea for wisdom...tinfoil hats?  But not skills), since losing them when you leave the clan is the same as losing access to clanned crafts...what?  You suddenly forgot how to kick and see good?

But MORE importantly...stolen!  It'll be like krathi rings, or getting ganked for newbie coins.  People will 100% kill you, with IC reasons, to nick your fancy Kurac-only running shoes (or whatever...).  And then a) someone without 'training' will have that buff (and a criminal, so none of their friends will care that they are wearing branded gear, they'll actually think it is cooler!  And b) you, who had the training, now doesn't have it.

Sure, MCB and all, but that is still ripe for stupidity compared to clan-membership-buffs.

Indy and new-clans, as I said, custom craft your own gear, ask for a buff if appropriate.

While I like the idea in general, specifically for smoothing out the board for things like the Tor Scorpions (I've played one...and being an 'elite fighter' when the Byn are the ones who are because they spar a bunch...is immersion -breaking-!), I would suggest it isn't huge.  A little tweak to give certain clans an edge and make things more realistic for how the RP/gameworld says it should be, but not so noticable that it is worth 3 RL months being in a clan you're not interested in to get?

[SmashedTregil]

But MORE importantly...stolen!  It'll be like krathi rings, or getting ganked for newbie coins.  People will 100% kill you, with IC reasons, to nick your fancy Kurac-only running shoes (or whatever...).  And then a) someone without 'training' will have that buff (and a criminal, so none of their friends will care that they are wearing branded gear, they'll actually think it is cooler!  And b) you, who had the training, now doesn't have it.

Sure, MCB and all, but that is still ripe for stupidity compared to clan-membership-buffs.

It has been a long time since I played in Kurac. But I recall ... killing a few people who were seen wearing Kuraci only boots and refusing a polite request to return their clan only gear.

[Riev]

But MORE importantly...stolen!  It'll be like krathi rings, or getting ganked for newbie coins.  People will 100% kill you, with IC reasons, to nick your fancy Kurac-only running shoes (or whatever...).  And then a) someone without 'training' will have that buff (and a criminal, so none of their friends will care that they are wearing branded gear, they'll actually think it is cooler!  And b) you, who had the training, now doesn't have it.

Sure, MCB and all, but that is still ripe for stupidity compared to clan-membership-buffs.

It has been a long time since I played in Kurac. But I recall ... killing a few people who were seen wearing Kuraci only boots and refusing a polite request to return their clan only gear.

This sums up my confusion over this. If some raiding clan has your +2 boots of mobility because they raided and killed someone who was of high-enough rank to earn and wear them... good for them? Now your clan has a reason to team up with others to whittle down and/or steal from the raiders to get your shit back.

Why is "oh no people might kill me for my items" a problem? Is a PC clan so scary that you cannot possibly work with the 13 other clans to fight back?