Stop Auto-storing Elves!

[Lizzie]

The thing I want to take into account, is that elves are an extremely popular race in the fantasy playspace.  They are the #2 race after humans in terms of playing in roleplaying games.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/

In ArmageddonMUD, they are a 0 karma race, available to anyone.

I feel that in order to make the race more attractive and easier to play for brand new players, some of the limitations and characteristics of elves within our game should be reassessed to allow an easier roleplaying experience.  We want players to be able to jump in and get it, and start playing out the world of Zalanthas.

Yes, change some of the aspects of the city elf race in the game world to make it easier to play.

How about an option for elves who don't gen in an actual city, and are also not desert elves?

A Luir's or Red Storm-based elf.

They would be the odd duck of elves - tribal only to the effect that they congregate primarily with other elves in their base location. They would still not ride mounts. They would have SOME of the advantage of desert elves - perhaps they'd automatically come with the climb skill, would not be able to get the lockpicking skill, and would have a reduced stamina drain when running outside the city. But not as much as desert elves get. Plus - a Luir's based elf would begrudgingly accept work on a wagon - but ONLY if they were employed by Kurac. A Red-storm based elf would begrudgingly accept work on a silt skimmer - but would never be capable of piloting one.

In either case, the odd-duck elf would be the subject of scorn among both city and desert elves.

They would have the accent of their location - either northern or southern, but not rinthi or tribal.

[number13]

C-elves should be degenerate goblins who will do anything to get ahead --

-- except ride around on a wagon, kank, or silt-skimmer (or accept movement-enhancing magic from their buddies, for that matter). It's too much apart of their core OOC identity. And it's an interesting problem to have to think about. If you don't want to deal with it play a half-elf. Or a mutant human with sharp ears, and an uncanny resemblance to Galadriel.

That said, c-elves should have more ability to run around the desert on their own two feet. A boost there would go a long way to making them playable in Kurac and the Byn. And full-blooded c-elves should have a little more of a social leg-up on the eastside and other c-elfy places.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

[Spider]

C-elves should be degenerate goblins who will do anything to get ahead --

-- except ride around on a wagon, kank, or silt-skimmer (or accept movement-enhancing magic from their buddies, for that matter). It's too much apart of their core OOC identity. And it's an interesting problem to have to think about. If you don't want to deal with it play a half-elf. Or a mutant human with sharp ears, and an uncanny resemblance to Galadriel.

That said, c-elves should have more ability to run around the desert on their own two feet. A boost there would go a long way to making them playable in Kurac and the Byn. And full-blooded c-elves should have a little more of a social leg-up on the eastside and other c-elfy places.

You can play a human like an elf.  However, the world will not react the same way to your PC as it would if it was an elf.  Playing a breed like an elf would run afoul of breed documentation.  From what I understand, mutants are just mutants, with a world response unique to that affliction.  The riding stipulation for elves is stand alone as far as core mentality.  It follows from pride in using their own body to accomplish travel.  Removing that, changes nothing else from Elvish documentation.  They will still be prideful, just not about that.  Instead their pride could stem from the ability to handle mounts and wagons better than any one else.

Over the years, I've played many elves, and enjoy the experience a great deal.  However, the lack of travelling does lead me to avoid them for the most part.  It really is just a separate tick from the rest of the elvish RP.  There was a point where elvish documentation included a propensity for wandering, but that changed in order to make things more consistent.  To me, the correct change was to remove the no ride/pilot stipulation not the propensity for wandering stipulation, for the sake of consistency.  Perhaps with a change to the no ride/pilot, the game could see more elves kicking about that aren't city sneaks.  Thus giving more opportunities for degenerate goblin RP, aside from there goes the weapon on someone's belt.

Mansa brought up a great point that I must give a nod to.

[Brokkr]

We intend for city elves to be suited to city play.  To remain in the cities (or towns).  Its even in their name.

Leaving the city should be quite challenging for a city elf.

We are not looking to change this dynamic.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

We intend for city elves to be suited to city play.  To remain in the cities (or towns).  Its even in their name.

Leaving the city should be quite challenging for a city elf.

We are not looking to change this dynamic.

I get that, and that's not what this thread was aiming to do. Aside from skimming on the silt seas for riches and death.

Can we at least get some reassurance that elf raiders boarding a moving wagon to kill invaders on that wagon isn't a taboo thing? The same sort of documentation would apply to desert elves, even more.

[HeeBeeGB]

The concept is only foreign I think because we are looking at it from a meta/code/ease of play standpoint. But there are plenty of fantastical and real cultures that would never fight or brandish a weapon even to defend themselves, ride horses even when everyone else is riding horses, and so on. I think the issue is really that we would all buy this whole sale if it was a trio of City Elf tribes that were open for play, and all of them shared these beliefs, culturally. The way it is sold to us in Armageddon (And honestly, via Dark Sun) is it is a 'racial trait'. It's odd to think of that being a racial trait. A culturally inherited trait passed down from generation to generation? That makes sense. But every culture also adapts to their environments and surroundings to survive.

I think the documentation could be tweaked to reflect more of an agreed upon cultural tradition, including exile and shaming by other elves if it is broken. That makes much more sense to me than 'No elf will ever ride a mount or get on a wagon, because racial pride'.

All of the grey area stuff (like what Lizzie posted) I semi-agree with. I don't see city elves putting themselves in situations where they would be leaving the city (often) or desiring to ride versus walking. It gets stickier when the opportunities available to elves for gainful employment are a) crime b) the Byn and c) crime.

I don't think anyone said being a City Elf should be easy. It is hard, supremely difficult, and sometimes rewarding to play one. But a lot of the roadblocks that stand in their way of being enjoyable despite the hardships they face are OOC in nature, or at least OOCly imposed and enforced.

For Example:
1. A Elf can ride in a wagon. But if they do so, they'll likely be stored, as they are not playing with current documentation. The same could be said of a half-giant having a sexual relationship with a human. It's likely going to lead to storage. They're not exactly equitable, but they involve 'racial role-play' and what you can or cannot do within the limits of the documentation.

2. A City Elf can join the T'zai Byn as one of its only 'non crime' related job paths. But while in the Byn, they are an utter drag on contracts, as they have to rest every 10 minutes. They don't ride mounts, because they're too proud to do so. Clients on contract rarely understand why the Byn Sergeant just 'had to bring the elf'. So most Byn Sergeants just leave them at home, unless they absolutely enjoy masochism. Elves understand this. Bynners understand this. Even the Clients complaining understand this. People gloss over it, and some Sergeants (thankfully) take the time to bring the elf, and some Clients don't overly complain about the extra time it takes to complete a contract because of them.

3. A City Elf thrives mainly with crime in a city, currently, in Allanak. However, they are also fully prepared to be blamed for every crime in the city, even the ones they didn't commit. This is part of the juice of being a city elf, and part of what drives their anti-establishment mentality for the most part. I don't think anything is wrong with this. But as the only path/trope for the race, it does get old.

I don't think allowing City Elves to rides solves it. I do think giving them a somewhat healthy boost to stamina might. I think tweaking the documentation to shift away from 'racially inherited traits' to more culturally inherited and understood pathologies makes sense. I think making it less black and white also makes sense -- Make it so taboo to ride or be on a wagon that other elves will stop at nothing to kill you if they hear you did it. That sounds like more intriguing story play than forbidding it entirely in an OOC sense. More difficult to police, surely, especially for a 0 Karma race. So perhaps it needs to be increased to 1 Karma, along with new caveats.

[Dresan]

I think we need to differentiated between IC and OOC challenging.

Having to work harder to earn the acceptance of your team because no one trusts elves is ICly challenging. This is great to have in the game.

Having to spend your precious time bored or idly because you character does not have the ability to join in the clan designated fun is OOCly challenge. This is not something that should be in the game. 

There doesn't need to be any big justification for reducing OOC challenges of a 0 karma race, other then the fact this is a game and we want the experiences to be as OOCly fun as possible. 

[LindseyBalboa]

It really isn't hard to just role play elves as having so much pride they wouldn't even consider riding shit. Like it's really easy and it actually adds a lot to playing an elf, especially a city elf in Allanak who is completely despised by most but still inherently and completely feels better than everyone that isn't sharp-eared.

OOCly, I've never had a problem as a c-elf in the Byn, the Sarges typically think about you more than you would.

+in favor of c-elf tribe though

[Alizerin]

2. A City Elf can join the T'zai Byn as one of its only 'non crime' related job paths. But while in the Byn, they are an utter drag on contracts, as they have to rest every 10 minutes. They don't ride mounts, because they're too proud to do so. Clients on contract rarely understand why the Byn Sergeant just 'had to bring the elf'. So most Byn Sergeants just leave them at home, unless they absolutely enjoy masochism. Elves understand this. Bynners understand this. Even the Clients complaining understand this. People gloss over it, and some Sergeants (thankfully) take the time to bring the elf, and some Clients don't overly complain about the extra time it takes to complete a contract because of them.

<snip>

I don't think allowing City Elves to rides solves it. I do think giving them a somewhat healthy boost to stamina might. I think tweaking the documentation to shift away from 'racially inherited traits' to more culturally inherited and understood pathologies makes sense. I think making it less black and white also makes sense -- Make it so taboo to ride or be on a wagon that other elves will stop at nothing to kill you if they hear you did it. That sounds like more intriguing story play than forbidding it entirely in an OOC sense. More difficult to police, surely, especially for a 0 Karma race. So perhaps it needs to be increased to 1 Karma, along with new caveats.

I've long thought that "Running" should be a Skill that all Elves get. Effectively, it's Ride, for Elves.

• Max Running (95%) = Current Desert Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics
• Min Running (5%) = Current starting City Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics

The Staff could set the difficulty of raising the Running skill to whatever level they wanted it to be. Further, they could cap it at whatever level they wanted it to be. While all Desert Elves would be Masters at Running, City Elves might start out as Novices and never progress beyond Journeyman. Or, not: the staff could choose to set no limits and a city-elf dedicated to Running may one day master the skill and become essentially almost identical to a desert elf.

This would allow avenues for starting City Elves access content and join organizations like House Kurac and the T'zai Byn, and - while possibly never getting as good at Running as their wilderness cousins - they would have the possibility of eventually getting better with training.

[Hauwke]

2. A City Elf can join the T'zai Byn as one of its only 'non crime' related job paths. But while in the Byn, they are an utter drag on contracts, as they have to rest every 10 minutes. They don't ride mounts, because they're too proud to do so. Clients on contract rarely understand why the Byn Sergeant just 'had to bring the elf'. So most Byn Sergeants just leave them at home, unless they absolutely enjoy masochism. Elves understand this. Bynners understand this. Even the Clients complaining understand this. People gloss over it, and some Sergeants (thankfully) take the time to bring the elf, and some Clients don't overly complain about the extra time it takes to complete a contract because of them.

<snip>

I don't think allowing City Elves to rides solves it. I do think giving them a somewhat healthy boost to stamina might. I think tweaking the documentation to shift away from 'racially inherited traits' to more culturally inherited and understood pathologies makes sense. I think making it less black and white also makes sense -- Make it so taboo to ride or be on a wagon that other elves will stop at nothing to kill you if they hear you did it. That sounds like more intriguing story play than forbidding it entirely in an OOC sense. More difficult to police, surely, especially for a 0 Karma race. So perhaps it needs to be increased to 1 Karma, along with new caveats.

I've long thought that "Running" should be a Skill that all Elves get. Effectively, it's Ride, for Elves.

• Max Running (95%) = Current Desert Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics
• Min Running (5%) = Current starting City Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics

The Staff could set the difficulty of raising the Running skill to whatever level they wanted it to be. Further, they could cap it at whatever level they wanted it to be. While all Desert Elves would be Masters at Running, City Elves might start out as Novices and never progress beyond Journeyman. Or, not: the staff could choose to set no limits and a city-elf dedicated to Running may one day master the skill and become essentially almost identical to a desert elf.

This would allow avenues for starting City Elves access content and join organizations like House Kurac and the T'zai Byn, and - while possibly never getting as good at Running as their wilderness cousins - they would have the possibility of eventually getting better with training.

+1 to the Running idea.

Makes them work for the benefit. Though, make it only raise very slow and only when outside the cities.

[rinthrat]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

You would be the odd one out, and suddenly playing up to these restrictions gets a lot harder and less acceptable for you, too ("Sharpie over there is riding, why can't you? Hop on before I whip you for insubordination, Runner.")

If you want to ride around, play a breed that really looks up to elves. Why does it have to be an elf? There are plenty of races that can travel as much as they want and/or like. City elves have a niche, why water it down?

[Lizzie]

We intend for city elves to be suited to city play.  To remain in the cities (or towns).  Its even in their name.

Leaving the city should be quite challenging for a city elf.

We are not looking to change this dynamic.

I totally get that and agree with it.

My suggestion up-thread was to distinguish between a city-generated city elf, and a city elf that doesn't start out in a city. Allanak is huge, there's tons to do for an elf who never leaves it.

Luir's and Red Storm are tiny, and there's a very limited amount of things they can do, other than - leave it and do things outside the walls.

The suggestion would be for a minor mutation (it's been several Kings' Ages since the genetic split of desert:city elf race). City elves would still be exactly as they are now. Except - you wouldn't be able to roll up a city elf that's based anywhere OTHER than the city. With the only playable city currently being Allanak (and the attached Rinth). Genning a city elf in Luir's or Red Storm shouldn't be an option at all.

Instead, a non-desert, non-city elf should exist, that is not allowed to gen anywhere other than Luir's or Red Storm. They would come with their own lore. They're still elves. They still wouldn't ride animals. Their stamina loss for being outside their base would not be as good as an elf who was born outside the walls of the base. But better than that of the "lesser races." One in Red Storm would accept silt skimmers as an option. One in Luir's might accept standing in a Kurac wagon as an option. Neither would ever own or pilot one, not even to steal it. Everything else about elven mores and innate personality traits would be exactly the same.

So there'd basically be the desert elves, the city elves, and the hybrid elves. They'd all be elves.

[Lizzie]

Another idea that just popped out of my head:

Specifically regarding wagons and skimmers.

Add code such that if an elf were to move inside/on top of either thing, they lose stun points, slowly. With a coded echo to them expressing their claustrophobia. If it gets bad enough, they start losing stamina points, and then, they start sweating, as if they were poisoned.

Give them a coded physiological aversion to riding in a wagon or on a silt skimmer to help explain WHY they feel that their own bodies are superior methods of transportation than riding in/on a wagon/skimmer.

That way - special snowflake Errol the Elf can still ride - but he and his entire crew will have to accommodate his presence there with breaks to allow the elf to get out of the wagon from time to time and recover.

[Doublepalli]

Keep in mind elves have stood in wagons before, only if the wagons move their heads explode

[Lizzie]

Keep in mind elves have stood in wagons before, only if the wagons move their heads explode

The consequences of elves standing in wagons has always been left up to the players, or on occasion staff intervention on a case-by-case basis.

I'm suggesting there be coded consequences, so elves COULD ostensibly do it - but with coded penalties that reinforce and support the RP aspect of it.

[Spider]

A karma based tribeless elf that plays in and out of the city with appropriate skill/stamina changes would go a long way in resolving my number one frustration with playing non desert elf elves.   Some nice ideas posted up so far.

[Spider]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

You would be the odd one out, and suddenly playing up to these restrictions gets a lot harder and less acceptable for you, too ("Sharpie over there is riding, why can't you? Hop on before I whip you for insubordination, Runner.")

If you want to ride around, play a breed that really looks up to elves. Why does it have to be an elf? There are plenty of races that can travel as much as they want and/or like. City elves have a niche, why water it down?

It has to be an elf for the elvish mentality and the world response associated with playing an elf.  A breed is NOT an elf, especially internally.

[Khorm]

what if your elf's feet (somehow  ) don't touch the ground while the wagon is moving. they'd have to have a pretty good prosecutor to get you on that one.

[Saellyn]

I don't recommend playing a breed that looks like an elf and then following up by riding a mount. The point of a breed looking more like an elf is that more elvish tendencies come out, from my understanding of it, including that quirky little hatred for anything too weak to walk on its own feet.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

You would be the odd one out, and suddenly playing up to these restrictions gets a lot harder and less acceptable for you, too ("Sharpie over there is riding, why can't you? Hop on before I whip you for insubordination, Runner.")

If you want to ride around, play a breed that really looks up to elves. Why does it have to be an elf? There are plenty of races that can travel as much as they want and/or like. City elves have a niche, why water it down?

Can you not roleplay this restriction? I don't hear anyone requesting we add restrictions to the way dwarven focuses are handled.

Also, the city elf "niche" is to operate in a 50 room area that is so completely forgotten by those writing the lore that they can't even maintain a single elven tribe there. Oh, and don't forget, relationship to the tribe is equally important if not more to elves as shame for riding. Assuming we're going off the docs here.

No. City elves are an awful slog to play. Their documentation is a mess and they're half baked as a race concept. The main location they play in lacks any tribes they are to join. They remain objectively the worst race choice at chargen. They either need to be rethought or not exist, hard stop.

[rinthrat]

Can you not roleplay this restriction? I don't hear anyone requesting we add restrictions to the way dwarven focuses are handled.

It's not coded. City-elves can hop onto a mount just fine, I've done this when nobody was looking because there is no other way to title a mount, and I needed my mount to have a unique keyword.

Also, the city elf "niche" is to operate in a 50 room area that is so completely forgotten by those writing the lore that they can't even maintain a single elven tribe there. Oh, and don't forget, relationship to the tribe is equally important if not more to elves as shame for riding. Assuming we're going off the docs here.

They're good inside the city, not just Eastside. Plenty of people play characters that never leave the walls, or do so only in extreme circumstances. City-elves aren't even unique in that way.

No. City elves are an awful slog to play. Their documentation is a mess and they're half baked as a race concept. The main location they play in lacks any tribes they are to join. They remain objectively the worst race choice at chargen. They either need to be rethought or not exist, hard stop.

I had a great time on my city-elves. I assume this was similar for other celf players at the time, or they wouldn't have stuck around as long as they did. "I don't like playing them" is not a good reason to remove something from the game - nobody is forcing you to play one and at least some of us do like playing them.

[Spider]

Can you not roleplay this restriction? I don't hear anyone requesting we add restrictions to the way dwarven focuses are handled.

It's not coded. City-elves can hop onto a mount just fine, I've done this when nobody was looking because there is no other way to title a mount, and I needed my mount to have a unique keyword.

Also, the city elf "niche" is to operate in a 50 room area that is so completely forgotten by those writing the lore that they can't even maintain a single elven tribe there. Oh, and don't forget, relationship to the tribe is equally important if not more to elves as shame for riding. Assuming we're going off the docs here.

They're good inside the city, not just Eastside. Plenty of people play characters that never leave the walls, or do so only in extreme circumstances. City-elves aren't even unique in that way.

No. City elves are an awful slog to play. Their documentation is a mess and they're half baked as a race concept. The main location they play in lacks any tribes they are to join. They remain objectively the worst race choice at chargen. They either need to be rethought or not exist, hard stop.

I had a great time on my city-elves. I assume this was similar for other celf players at the time, or they wouldn't have stuck around as long as they did. "I don't like playing them" is not a good reason to remove something from the game - nobody is forcing you to play one and at least some of us do like playing them.

I enjoy playing them as well.  However, I do think they need a boost to make them a more interesting and fun race to play.  For me, obviously, the big one is their ability to travel.  The documentation quite clearly states why this is the case, but to me it is a mistake.  I know for one thing, if city elves could travel better, via the ability to ride, pilot, or just a boost to stamina, I would play them a lot more often.

Some times even if one accomplishes what they intend on accomplishing, the result is not so good, or has room for improvement.

[CodeMaster]

It may be some small help to know that the stamina drop on roads is smaller than the stamina drop on dunes and rocks.  If you're a Byn sergeant you can do the elves a huge favor by being diligent about staying on roads.

[Brokkr]

For me, obviously, the big one is their ability to travel.

One could come at this from the perspective of "City elves are actually masters of traveling."

They can sneak from the Rinth to the Commoner Quarter faster than your human can walk that distance.

They can run that distance faster than anyone without elf blood.

I can think of one or two things that would be nice for them to have, that would help their ability to travel, in their domain.  Neither of which has been mentioned here.

Outside their domain, where they aren't really supposed to be that often, yeah, they suck.  But looking at someplace they aren't supposed to be anyways and saying they need to be better there elicits a Meh response.  Because they aren't supposed to be there often.  So they suck there, so you don't play them there often.