Stop Auto-storing Elves!

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I've heard rumors of this, and another player confirmed this for me. If an elf is ever on a wagon and it moves, or if an elf ever gets on a skimmer and sails the silts, they get Auto-stored.

We need more than just idle talk and grumbling about it. We need the staff to seriously listen, and we really need this to change. People already complain that elves are hard to play, celves especially. While lacking opportunities, inclusion in events, and generally being mistrusted and abused by other races is all well-documented and part of the game world, this code that auto-stores them is nothing but a ham-fisted, purely OOC event designed to force players to adhere to misinterpreted documentation in a draconian way that does not make sense at all, when you think about it.

The only excuse we get is, "They're a different race, and there's no way you can understand how they think!" Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Logic is logic, and we as players must be able to understand how someone or something thinks.. otherwise, how can you possibly RP it? Staff members need an even higher degree of understanding. Elves are intelligent beings, even moreso on average than humans. Even if they have strange beliefs and customs, there should be a logic and a reason behind them. And thus, with logic and reason, we can apply that to other situations and decide: does this blatantly break our code? Is this frowned upon? Is it merely a grey area? And even if we happened to do something bad, is there a way to atone?

Let's start with the simplest and easiest example. Skimmers. There is not one elf that can run or walk on silt (aside from use of magicks). Anyone who falls into the silt dies. So therefore, it makes absolutely no sense how riding a skimmer is taboo. As far as I am aware, there is only one dock in which to park a skimmer in the Known. If, for example, there were multiple such ports, and an elf happened to travel by skimmer from one port to another - on purpose - yes, I can see that as a problem. They should have just walked or ran from one port to another, rather than riding the skimmer. This is all hypothetical, however, as there aren't other ports, and the silt seas is already fraught with many dangers.

In short: If it is impossible to do by foot, then assistance is okay.

Next up is the whole thing about being on a wagon. I know, elves shouldn't be riding them just for the sake of riding them. But intent is very important. Lots of opportunities for excitement and PK are completely excluded due to these harsh, draconian rules. I remember examples of raiders that wanted to board argosies being used. If there's a band of elves that want to raid an argosy, they should be able to board it and kill anyone inside. The point of entering the wagon isn't to rest and get an easy ride. The intent here is clearly to fight your way in, kill/rob the inhabitants, and then take your spoils back home (on foot). Sure, it would be preferable to go for the driver first and stop the wagon from moving. And certainly, once a wagon is captured, it would not be ridden back to camp! But intent is extremely important here, and leeway is necessary to have fun. I am honestly reminded of vampires and the superstition of them not being able to cross over running water. Compare that to elves now, who absolutely cannot board a moving wagon, or they vaporize! It's absolutely ridiculous and meta that has surely been abused for far too long.

There have also been assassination plots involving people on wagons. Something along the lines of 1) sneak into wagon. 2) wait for it to get moving. 3) kill target. 4) bail out. Of course, such plans are completely thrown out the window as well, given an elf's extreme, pathological aversion of riding upon anything that is moving. But again, it shouldn't really apply, as the intent is clear. The intent of riding on the wagon is not for a free and easy ride. It's to kill somebody.

In short: Intent matters.

Lastly there are other grey areas. What if the elf is knocked unconscious and dying, and their friends have a chance to save them? Well technically, for a dying/unconscious elf, it is actually impossible for them to run on their own. Could having their body thrown on a wagon or dragged behind a mount be acceptable? Maybe. Maybe the elf still gets ridiculed and gets flak for it. Maybe they get a bad reputation. Maybe some other elves attack them. But should they be stored? No.  These are complex decisions and RP opportunities being missed.

Should an elf ever go out with friends or leading a mount with riding as a possible contingency on their mind? No.  But shit does happen.

In short: Do not auto-store. Flag such events for GMs to notice instead.

Finally, I want to make one last argument. I believe that what has happened here is this auto-storing code has existed for a long time. This code has had an effect on the game world which influences players' attitudes and perceptions. While I can certainly see the intent behind this code, it is clearly flawed, for the many reasons I have described. Due to how the code behaves, however, it has planted the erroneous belief in players' (and even staff members') minds that all skimmers, all being on a moving wagon, all riding is absolutely forbidden, and the elf in question simply commits suicide or something. I believe it should be the other way around. Player/staff beliefs and documentation should influence the code.

I'll make one tiny concession, as if you look at the documentation, it says the following:

Elves will never willingly ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

However, while it does explicitly say "never willingly ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers", in the very same sentence, it gives the reason why: it's an insult to their natural speed and endurance.

So, what we should keep in mind is the intent. Does the action in question insult an elf's speed and endurance? Does it imply they are feeble, lazy, or incapable? Or was there a higher purpose to the action that had nothing to do with travel in the first place? And again, about skimmers: there's no fucking way in hell an elf can run on silt, so this has nothing to do with their speed and endurance. The mention of skimmers should be stricken from the documentation. And perhaps the documentation should appear more lenient and clear.

[BadSkeelz]

They should stop auto-storing Dwarves who use punctuation as well.

[Lotion]

This makes me want to play some AoD person who prefers to transport fully consious elf prisoners by cart just so that they can feel the shame of being brought to the cells in such an insulting and humiliating way

[Lizzie]

My take-away regarding silt skimmers is that elves should not have any interest at all in being on one, ever. And on the off-chance that they get drunk and smoke way too much spice one day and suddenly in their drunken haze wonder what it might be like, their genetically-imprinted loathing of going anywhere via any method other than their own bodies would take over and make them change their own minds.

The same goes for riding in wagons. Unless they are the ones pulling that wagon - they'd want nothing to do with one. The only time you should ever see an elf on a wagon or a skimmer, in my thinking, is if the elf in question is unconscious, subdued, or dead.

There have been city elves who've left the city, a couple of Kuracis come to mind in particular. They were the exception to the rule, and they did an amazing job of keeping to the documentation.

If you feel that city elves are just too difficult to play outside cities - you're right. It's intentional. Stop trying to do that, or learn how to accept the difficulty and RP it for all it's worth, as has happened in those rare exceptions in game history.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

My take-away regarding silt skimmers is that elves should not have any interest at all in being on one, ever. And on the off-chance that they get drunk and smoke way too much spice one day and suddenly in their drunken haze wonder what it might be like, their genetically-imprinted loathing of going anywhere via any method other than their own bodies would take over and make them change their own minds.

The same goes for riding in wagons. Unless they are the ones pulling that wagon - they'd want nothing to do with one. The only time you should ever see an elf on a wagon or a skimmer, in my thinking, is if the elf in question is unconscious, subdued, or dead.

There have been city elves who've left the city, a couple of Kuracis come to mind in particular. They were the exception to the rule, and they did an amazing job of keeping to the documentation.

If you feel that city elves are just too difficult to play outside cities - you're right. It's intentional. Stop trying to do that, or learn how to accept the difficulty and RP it for all it's worth, as has happened in those rare exceptions in game history.

This really has nothing to do with city elves leaving cities or complaints about such.  Stop assuming things of others.

And why, if you don't mind my asking, do you think elves should never have an interest in skimmers?

[Saellyn]

I'm not aware of code that automatically stores anyone or anything. Where is this coming from?

[Shabago]

That would be because no such thing exists.

[Dune Bunny]

I don't believe there's an auto-store code. I've never heard of such in over a decade.5 of playing. (edit: Shabago beat me to it. Daggum you!)

On the subject of elves and mounts/transports, just play by the documentation and the problem won't come up. It may feel unfair that one species doesn't have the same advantages as another, or may even be utterly worse all around -- but that's the game world. Elves compared to humans, commoners compared to nobles, etc. Things aren't fair in the world, and the game would be a much more boring place if all was balanced. (IMO)

[Kankfly]

Sometimes rumors are just rumors, and shouldn't be taken as truth. :/

I think if you do experience instances of it, the best way is to send in a request to find out the why and the how. That way the communication can be handled in a better manner since sometimes force-storage (if that's what you're talking about) happens due to certain IC sensitive situations, and they can be discussed more readily through the request tool.

[Narf]

That would be because no such thing exists.

The autostoring of elves on wagons, or the dwarves using punctuation? Because my brother's friend's aunt got her dwarf stored just as she accidentally typed her first comma.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Yes, sorry. I've heard of force-storage, and a more experienced player had told me of this "auto-storage".

However, a forced storage under such circumstances is pretty bad in itself...  It may as well be the same thing if a player is forced to store their character for "bad RP".

That would be because no such thing exists.

So, since you're here, would you be able to confirm or deny that under any of the above situations in the OP, would a player have been forced to retire their elf?

[Fredd]

I've long thought it silly Celves have pride in their ability to run when they can't even outrun dwarves.

I think the Celves should, logically, ride things by now. And Delves should be disgusted by it. They should spit on them in cities, and murder them in the sands.

However, I think this isn't done in order to force them into being criminals, and therefore enforcing the elf stereotype they want for the game. Which is a fine enough reason to me. They want the elves to be sneaky thieves and assassins.

[Narf]

I've long thought it silly Celves have pride in their ability to run when they can't even outrun dwarves.

In cities a city elf can outrun a dwarf, or pretty much everything else. I think they're technically a little slower than half-giants, but the giant will run out of stamina first.

[triste]

I've long thought it silly Celves have pride in their ability to run when they can't even outrun dwarves.

In cities a city elf can outrun a dwarf, or pretty much everything else.

Speedwalking around as a city elf was one of my fave Arma experiences recently so I can vouch for this. It's part of the reason I wish for a city elf tribe so badly. City elf roleplay can be amazingly fun [when they actually have a staff supported tribe in game particularly].

[Dresan]

Yes, sorry. I've heard of force-storage, and a more experienced player had told me of this "auto-storage".

However, a forced storage under such circumstances is pretty bad in itself...  It may as well be the same thing if a player is forced to store their character for "bad RP".

That would be because no such thing exists.

So, since you're here, would you be able to confirm or deny that under any of the above situations in the OP, would a player have been forced to retire their elf?

Basically the term is force store. However, generally speaking if the staff catch an elf riding mount/skimmers/wagons my understanding is they will automatically store your character.

As Shabago stated this should not be happening in the game. You cannot have an elf that is okay with riding.

I don't like it myself (at least wagons and skimmers) but those are the game rules.

[Shabago]

I can't remember a single time while I've been staffing that anyone has been stored for such, be it auto/forced or otherwise. It hasn't even really come up as by and large people play by the docs.

I can recall two times where a new player elf and one that looked like an elf (breed) were seen riding a mount. Both players were simply spoken to, and that was the end of the matter.

Is it /possible/ someone was force stored for such at some point? I suppose? In such a hypothetical, it would require them to actively go against documentation (repeatedly) and deliberately go against staff guidance to stop such behaviour.

[Dresan]

In short, if you are going against documentation and staff warning in this game you will stored.

So to answer the OP original question, no elves riding and if you do despite it all, you will be asked by staff to stop and eventually you will be stored if you do not.

Same difference.

[StrangledShriek]

It's really not. If you play the race according to the documentation you have no issues. If you don't, staff will happily nudge you into correcting that behavior. If you still don't, maybe you should just go play humans if you can't follow the rules.


Edit: If feels like this is some sidelong way to ask to let Elves ride in wagons. Just ask instead of whatever this thread is. (I highly doubt it'd happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask)

[triste]

Edit: If feels like this is some sidelong way to ask to let Elves ride in wagons. Just ask instead of whatever this thread is. (I highly doubt it'd happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask)

That was my sense of this thread as well.

As others stated if you break the documentation, get a warning, and continue to do so, you get stored. That part of the original post isn't specific to elves. So what part of this described problem is specific to elves?

A few things, and I understand the angst. It's crummy when a bunch of feature development is poured into something [wagons] completely denied to certain character concepts [elves], particularly when these deprived character concepts are also deprived of basic needs defined in the documentation but absent from the game [like a playable city elf tribe].

[Dar]

Havent bothered to read most of this thread. The moment I saw "auto storage" I've skipped.

Odds are there are good points in this thread, but when one starts something with such complete BS, I dont really want to participate.

[Dresan]

C-elves need x/y/z because x/y/z threads have been going on for years. There is a cycle to this things. Not enough hate for breeds is probably next in line.

That said,  the documentation does not make the state of elves in game clear enough, or outline just how much content in the game is denied to them. C-elves are the second largest race in the cities and yet it feels there are times when there are more defilers, muls and half-elves in the game then there are elven PCs.

It is a bleaker experience even if you join anyone of the few clan that takes elves. And that bleak experience is not at an IC level its OOC. That is because ICly you can have your vnpc tribe, the vnpc elf race in the background etc. However, OOCly you have to put up with the inability to join in many of the experience offered by clans you can join. If you want to experience that IC hate and discrimination while still having access to all the content you can play half-elves.

Lets not forget that all c-elves are thieves according to documentation, luckily people's OOC thoughts on stealth and thieves do not bleed into the game. I sure haven't heard PC in the game state that taverns are empty because of the thieves. I sure haven't played one of the few elves in the game only to have strangers find my mind accusing me of stealing their virtual shit. /sarcasm  Even certain interaction and opportunities utterly feel like OOC pity from players who understand the challenges of the role.

I sincerely believe that just one solution will not put elves in a better place. Even if the Juxa Pah opened, it would not be a long term solution,especially with the many of the game's plot devolving into who wants to kill who for whatever petty reason.   That said it would be a fun short term solution which I would watch the fireworks from afar

[Dresan]

I dont really want to participate.

Maybe put more effort at participating even less next time then?

[NinjaFruitSalad]

The only thing I am blatantly advocating for is letting elves ride skimmers. Because, again, elves cannot run on silt. They sink into it and die like everyone else. There's no travel benefit to skimming either that overshadows their ability to run seeing as there aren't even other ports to dock in. The whole point of skimming is basically to go out with a crew, exploring the seas for riches and opportunity. And fighting nasty tentacly death.

The purpose of this thread isn't to allow elves to ride mounts or wagons whenever they want. But I do want it allowed in very specific circumstances when the point of doing such isn't for ease of travel.

Look everyone, I'm sorry if the topic seems absurd. I'm a new player and I guess this person I was speaking to may have just been exaggerating or joking. But because I didn't know better, I thought it was the truth. Such a thing is certainly possible to do in code, anyway, and I didn't think it was farfetched.

Am I going to have to make a different thread but just focus on changing the documentation? I have got a lot of troll comments and mocking based on erroneous information about code. But the point still stands that the documentation needs a change. I'd rather not have to make a new thread, however, since I'd still pretty much be copy-pasting 90% of my OP.

[Lizzie]

The only thing I am blatantly advocating for is letting elves ride skimmers. Because, again, elves cannot run on silt. They sink into it and die like everyone else. There's no travel benefit to skimming either that overshadows their ability to run seeing as there aren't even other ports to dock in. The whole point of skimming is basically to go out with a crew, exploring the seas for riches and opportunity. And fighting nasty tentacly death.

The purpose of this thread isn't to allow elves to ride mounts or wagons whenever they want. But I do want it allowed in very specific circumstances when the point of doing such isn't for ease of travel.

Look everyone, I'm sorry if the topic seems absurd. I'm a new player and I guess this person I was speaking to may have just been exaggerating or joking. But because I didn't know better, I thought it was the truth. Such a thing is certainly possible to do in code, anyway, and I didn't think it was farfetched.

Am I going to have to make a different thread but just focus on changing the documentation? I have got a lot of troll comments and mocking based on erroneous information about code. But the point still stands that the documentation needs a change. I'd rather not have to make a new thread, however, since I'd still pretty much be copy-pasting 90% of my OP.

CITY elves tend to be fairly agoraphobic; that is to say, they rarely leave the city, or have any interest in leaving it - let alone go out on some scary real estate lacking completely in stable ground beneath their feet. So there's no reason why city elves SHOULD be able to go on silt skimmers. They wouldn't want to, so it's pointless to give it to them.

DESERT elves tend to be somewhat provincial; they tend to stick to their own territory, which can of course be fairly vast. DESERT elves would also have no reason to get on a contraption that moves over unstable ground.

If their own feet CAN'T do it, they would likely never trust any contraption to carry them.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I should point out that city elves can also live in Red Storm.  Sifting is also a popular profession there, which occurs outside the city (though at least not too far).  I believe the lure of fame and fortune could possibly coax a city elf out of Red Storm to go skimming.

However, you may be right about the explanation of just not trusting anything their feet can't do.  At least if something like that would be added to the documentation, it wouldn't contradict itself.