Stop Auto-storing Elves!

[Spider]

For me, obviously, the big one is their ability to travel.

One could come at this from the perspective of "City elves are actually masters of traveling."

They can sneak from the Rinth to the Commoner Quarter faster than your human can walk that distance.

They can run that distance faster than anyone without elf blood.

I can think of one or two things that would be nice for them to have, that would help their ability to travel, in their domain.  Neither of which has been mentioned here.

Outside their domain, where they aren't really supposed to be that often, yeah, they suck.  But looking at someplace they aren't supposed to be anyways and saying they need to be better there elicits a Meh response.  Because they aren't supposed to be there often.  So they suck there, so you don't play them there often.

We know where they are supposed to be, and why they are no good outside of that domain.  Staff have done a great job in pigeon holing city elves into cities and city type roles with respect to the documentation and code.  What I am saying is that this design, in this game, makes them less fun to play than other options.  So much so that it is the number one reason I tend to avoid them.  The game has A LOT going for it outside the city.

Of course me avoiding elves is no big deal in the grand scheme.  There are other options to do the things I like to do in game.  All of this is just a heads up on how to maybe make city elves more playable for folks like me, not some disagreement about what ought to be the case as far as city elf ability with respect to current documentation.  Elvish documentation for the most part is great, but stifling when it comes to travel for once again, a player like me.  Nice try on the "master of travel" thing though.  However, it has nothing to do with what many of us were actually talking about.

Anyway, think I've beaten the drum enough this go around.  Hope to see a change, but it's not an all or nothing for me thing either.

[Riev]

Anecdotally, I played a city elf in Luir's. Merchant class. I was able to travel from Luirs to Allanak, and back, to make sales and trades and whatnot.

It was not easy. Luckily, there was an ex-Byn City Elf who was working as a mercenary who helped me make the run, but we made it all the way to Allanak with a pack beast, I made tons of coins, and made it all the way home. There were a number of rest stops in between, but it was doable codedly.

ICly... he was afraid for his goddamned life the entire time. It was way too open, way too easy for some bird to just come peck his eyes out. Not something he would want to do alone. He would never have imagined jumping on a wagon or doing anything that wasn't HIS way, though.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Riev, I suggest you reread the post of mine you responded to. You have failed to grasp my points and either shifted the narrative or apparently argued against what you think my points were. For example you misread my question about roleplaying the restriction about being able to ride. I was asking about roleplaying the shame of having to ride/having ridden and how the storage response of this is only enforced in the case of elves. You can ask questions if you're confused before writing a whole post.

I love seeing the No Mans Sky argument in real life where people try frantically to defend something flawed. Here we can see arguments like "it's actually fun with friends", as if a blank white room wouldn't be more fun with friends, or "it's actually good at what it does" when in fact you could play a Two Moons desert elf for example that is built for city play due to how closely they are tied to the city and be better at everything a city elf can do. The only real argument that works to defend a hopelessly flawed product would be "I think it's fun" but honestly there really is no accounting for taste.

You are trying to shift this into a matter of fun. Notice how I never discuss how fun they are to play until this post where I will grant you that you can feel anything you want is fun. You just have to realize that argument is extremely narrow (as in literally only your perspective). When I say they are a slog I was stating this as a lynchpin to all the things I mentioned immediately after that of which you don't seem too concerned with. But it is noted you had fun playing an elf once.

[Brokkr]

Please tone it down.  I don't want to lock this thread, but I will if things continue in this direction.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, but it would be good to keep in mind an opinion is not inherently more valuable than any other player's, simply because it is yours. An opinion also isn't an argument supported by points for why something should change. It is also not the determinant for right, wrong, or how things "should" be.  Or even what makes sense vs what doesn't make sense.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Okay. I'll back off. I just see a huge problem with part of the game and I'd like us all on the same page of addressing it. Failing that I'd like us all on the same page that this thing is poorly balanced, which it sounds like staff is atleast aware of and has no interest in remedying.

I'm just wasting my breath. We're about 0/3 on all the big issues I see in the game. Maybe it would help if staff had some transparency as to the larger goals you're working on currently? With huge glaring holes in Tuluk, magick, and elves as well as no obvious outpouring of enthusiasm into plots it appears to me like staff is doing nothing at this time. Could you possibly create a thread that discusses future goals and plans so if doesn't appear that way?

[Khorm]

i don't know that we're all going to end up on the same page about anything. the idea that we might end up there feels a little contentious; i don't agree with your representation of these things as huge glaring holes.

I think if i were on staff i'd be hesitant to open a dialogue about anything. the amount of negative attention directed toward things is pretty oppressive.

[gotdamnmiracle]

How do you provide years old criticisms that don't seem negative? I liked the cart code but we already have a thread to give positive feedback in the Release note discussion thread. If they had issues with the continuous threads and negativity then maybe there is a place to meet halfway. To my knowledge nothing like that has been explored or brought up.

[Riev]

I would like to note that my anecdote about playing a city-elf in Luir's was not in response to any one single person. It was to show that a city-elf, outside of a city, is possible and can be fun or interesting. Many people were splitting the topic into that avenue, being less about the code of the elves and more how stupid it is that they are city-locked.

I'm sorry you thought I was responding only to you.

[rinthrat]

I love seeing the No Mans Sky argument in real life where people try frantically to defend something flawed. Here we can see arguments like "it's actually fun with friends", as if a blank white room wouldn't be more fun with friends, or "it's actually good at what it does" when in fact you could play a Two Moons desert elf for example that is built for city play due to how closely they are tied to the city and be better at everything a city elf can do. The only real argument that works to defend a hopelessly flawed product would be "I think it's fun" but honestly there really is no accounting for taste.

How exactly is a delf going to be better at everything in the city than a celf miscreant? They don't even speak sirihish by default.

[gotdamnmiracle]

The above is not always true.

Also, I would be totally willing to say city elves are great in their environment if the rinth had more life to it and there were elf specific tribes in Allanak. Because these don't exist the negatives of the city elf stand out more. There are also no other playable races with quite the same issue regarding joining clans except perhaps if you played a gemmed character.

[mansa]

The above is not always true.

Also, I would be totally willing to say city elves are great in their environment if the rinth had more life to it and there were elf specific tribes in Allanak. Because these don't exist the negatives of the city elf stand out more. There are also no other playable races with quite the same issue regarding joining clans except perhaps if you played a gemmed character.

I would argue that a gemmed character isn't the character, but a job.


The city elf in Zalanthas has the following definitions:

To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe. You can almost attribute a sort of 'hive mind' to elves, in that most of them consider the welfare of their tribe above their own personal welfare. An elf would tell you that they would give up their own life without hesitation to protect or serve their tribe. Not all of them have that much willpower, but all of them wish they did, and certainly all of them will claim they do.

...

The elven population in cities is in a state of constant flux, as various tribes move in and out, die off, go into hiding, move into other parts of the city, or otherwise simply move. Very few tribes have actually settled absolutely into a given place, and those that have will feel a need to extend their influence as far as possible. For city-dwelling tribes, this redirection of old nomadic instincts can be subtle - domination of the other elven tribes nearby, great wealth, presence in every city; the nature of this will vary from tribe to tribe, but will universally add to the problems they cause for the rest of the occupants of the city.

There is nothing in there about recruiting other elves into your own tribe.  It allows you to be extremely creative with any tribe you want to make as a city elf.

However, I don't think the way the gameworld is currently setup to allow players of elf characters to jump in and start being a good elf, or even an enjoyable playable experience.
The problems lie in the lack of:

• Pre-existing clans that can easily be joined into, rather than always starting something fresh with every character - (The Guild or Merchant Houses fill this role for human/half-elf/dwarf.  Yes, the Byn is one, but that's primarily for combat focused playstyles)
• NPCs that will protect you, like a clan guard - (The Guild or Merchant Houses fill this role...)
• "safe" storage of items, like an apartment, warehouse, or clan hideout - (This exists in the Commoner's quarter of Allanak, but does not exist in the Labyrinth)
• Raw materials "relatively" close by within walking distance that can be used for crafting - (Other races can use mounts to travel further / more safely than city elves.  Yes, elves should set up a barter system with other races.)

If I had a magick wand, I would implement 2 city elf clan templates in the Labyrinth, and 2 city elf clan templates in the commoner's section of Allanak, and I would give the option for city elf characters to automagickally join into the clan, or to make their own tribe of their own.  This should allow players to "jump in with a backstory fulfilled" of new elf characters, and be able to explore more of the elven mindset.

I don't think the lack of raw materials for city elves is a major issue to not playing the race.
I do think the lack of a safe place for storage of items is a major issue why players don't enjoy playing city elves in ArmageddonMUD.

[number13]

I do think the lack of a safe place for storage of items is a major issue why players don't enjoy playing city elves in ArmageddonMUD.

The number of times my c-elves has their personal shit stolen (while they were still alive and active) I can count on one hand -- across multiple characters. For example, my favorite elven PC dumped off a fuck ton of coins, left the game for three months, and the stash was bigger when I came back.

You just have to be a tiny bit clever about how to store your crap, if you're a rinthi elf, and it'll pretty much never disappear. And when it does? Oh well. Steal all back again. It's actually fun content in the rare instances when things go missing.

If anything, GMHs and noble houses should have a little less security.

[Lotion]

When a celf steps outside of a city it's normally due to an important reason and it makes it feel super special, almost like a highlight of your time spent playing the character... that's how it's been for me.

[triste]

When a celf steps outside of a city it's normally due to an important reason and it makes it feel super special, almost like a highlight of your time spent playing the character... that's how it's been for me.

This is proper roleplay for a lot of city-elves. I have also met wannabe desert-elf city-elves who try to even be adopted into desert tribes and these concepts, while challenging, are equally valid and I've kudosed players who do this well.

Whenever newer players get involved in the City-Elf debate, though, I really wish they had had the opportunity to see or roleplay in one of the CE tribes that used to be open. The CE experience now without the presence of these tribes is less than a shadow of what it used to be. I've elaborated a lot on this in the past, and want to say I was very excited when the replies to the Content and Creation thread noted that Staff are considering reopening a CE tribe. I agree that an opened CE tribe is not the silver bullet to fix things for CE players, but I see it more content for CE players as an improvement over absolutely no effing content.

One more gripe I have is the way in which City Elves AND Desert Elves are casually fucked over when it comes to skills in character creation. Half of my elves have `pilot` or `ride` sitting unused in their skill list because they came with another guild/subguild that fit my character. By default, when elves pick a skill they CANNOT use, they don't have any perks like a skill replacement or the like. The minor skill gains such as `steal` do not in a quantitative sense compare to the loss of skills regularly see whenever elves pick an outdoor guild that can "tame mounts" but are never able to, etc. I would love it if subguilds either had elf-specific variants so that they are not so carelessly and thoughtlessly gutted in this way, or an automated way for elves to swap skills like `pilot` in chargen. It would have to be carefully balanced, but like my CE tribe argument, any change is better than the current state of affairs which is "casually shaft elf players by putting dead skills on their character sheets without replacements."

Anyway. I am glad this discussion, though off it got off topic, happened. Strange how that happens literally whenever elves come up; perhaps because people think the state of neglect needs to be corrected. It's been confirmed this "auto-storing" alleged by OP isn't a real thing, but the way in which elves are casually and carelessly screwed over in this game is real.