Stop Auto-storing Elves!

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I've heard rumors of this, and another player confirmed this for me. If an elf is ever on a wagon and it moves, or if an elf ever gets on a skimmer and sails the silts, they get Auto-stored.

We need more than just idle talk and grumbling about it. We need the staff to seriously listen, and we really need this to change. People already complain that elves are hard to play, celves especially. While lacking opportunities, inclusion in events, and generally being mistrusted and abused by other races is all well-documented and part of the game world, this code that auto-stores them is nothing but a ham-fisted, purely OOC event designed to force players to adhere to misinterpreted documentation in a draconian way that does not make sense at all, when you think about it.

The only excuse we get is, "They're a different race, and there's no way you can understand how they think!" Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Logic is logic, and we as players must be able to understand how someone or something thinks.. otherwise, how can you possibly RP it? Staff members need an even higher degree of understanding. Elves are intelligent beings, even moreso on average than humans. Even if they have strange beliefs and customs, there should be a logic and a reason behind them. And thus, with logic and reason, we can apply that to other situations and decide: does this blatantly break our code? Is this frowned upon? Is it merely a grey area? And even if we happened to do something bad, is there a way to atone?

Let's start with the simplest and easiest example. Skimmers. There is not one elf that can run or walk on silt (aside from use of magicks). Anyone who falls into the silt dies. So therefore, it makes absolutely no sense how riding a skimmer is taboo. As far as I am aware, there is only one dock in which to park a skimmer in the Known. If, for example, there were multiple such ports, and an elf happened to travel by skimmer from one port to another - on purpose - yes, I can see that as a problem. They should have just walked or ran from one port to another, rather than riding the skimmer. This is all hypothetical, however, as there aren't other ports, and the silt seas is already fraught with many dangers.

In short: If it is impossible to do by foot, then assistance is okay.

Next up is the whole thing about being on a wagon. I know, elves shouldn't be riding them just for the sake of riding them. But intent is very important. Lots of opportunities for excitement and PK are completely excluded due to these harsh, draconian rules. I remember examples of raiders that wanted to board argosies being used. If there's a band of elves that want to raid an argosy, they should be able to board it and kill anyone inside. The point of entering the wagon isn't to rest and get an easy ride. The intent here is clearly to fight your way in, kill/rob the inhabitants, and then take your spoils back home (on foot). Sure, it would be preferable to go for the driver first and stop the wagon from moving. And certainly, once a wagon is captured, it would not be ridden back to camp! But intent is extremely important here, and leeway is necessary to have fun. I am honestly reminded of vampires and the superstition of them not being able to cross over running water. Compare that to elves now, who absolutely cannot board a moving wagon, or they vaporize! It's absolutely ridiculous and meta that has surely been abused for far too long.

There have also been assassination plots involving people on wagons. Something along the lines of 1) sneak into wagon. 2) wait for it to get moving. 3) kill target. 4) bail out. Of course, such plans are completely thrown out the window as well, given an elf's extreme, pathological aversion of riding upon anything that is moving. But again, it shouldn't really apply, as the intent is clear. The intent of riding on the wagon is not for a free and easy ride. It's to kill somebody.

In short: Intent matters.

Lastly there are other grey areas. What if the elf is knocked unconscious and dying, and their friends have a chance to save them? Well technically, for a dying/unconscious elf, it is actually impossible for them to run on their own. Could having their body thrown on a wagon or dragged behind a mount be acceptable? Maybe. Maybe the elf still gets ridiculed and gets flak for it. Maybe they get a bad reputation. Maybe some other elves attack them. But should they be stored? No.  These are complex decisions and RP opportunities being missed.

Should an elf ever go out with friends or leading a mount with riding as a possible contingency on their mind? No.  But shit does happen.

In short: Do not auto-store. Flag such events for GMs to notice instead.

Finally, I want to make one last argument. I believe that what has happened here is this auto-storing code has existed for a long time. This code has had an effect on the game world which influences players' attitudes and perceptions. While I can certainly see the intent behind this code, it is clearly flawed, for the many reasons I have described. Due to how the code behaves, however, it has planted the erroneous belief in players' (and even staff members') minds that all skimmers, all being on a moving wagon, all riding is absolutely forbidden, and the elf in question simply commits suicide or something. I believe it should be the other way around. Player/staff beliefs and documentation should influence the code.

I'll make one tiny concession, as if you look at the documentation, it says the following:

Elves will never willingly ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

However, while it does explicitly say "never willingly ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers", in the very same sentence, it gives the reason why: it's an insult to their natural speed and endurance.

So, what we should keep in mind is the intent. Does the action in question insult an elf's speed and endurance? Does it imply they are feeble, lazy, or incapable? Or was there a higher purpose to the action that had nothing to do with travel in the first place? And again, about skimmers: there's no fucking way in hell an elf can run on silt, so this has nothing to do with their speed and endurance. The mention of skimmers should be stricken from the documentation. And perhaps the documentation should appear more lenient and clear.

[BadSkeelz]

They should stop auto-storing Dwarves who use punctuation as well.

[Lotion]

This makes me want to play some AoD person who prefers to transport fully consious elf prisoners by cart just so that they can feel the shame of being brought to the cells in such an insulting and humiliating way

[Lizzie]

My take-away regarding silt skimmers is that elves should not have any interest at all in being on one, ever. And on the off-chance that they get drunk and smoke way too much spice one day and suddenly in their drunken haze wonder what it might be like, their genetically-imprinted loathing of going anywhere via any method other than their own bodies would take over and make them change their own minds.

The same goes for riding in wagons. Unless they are the ones pulling that wagon - they'd want nothing to do with one. The only time you should ever see an elf on a wagon or a skimmer, in my thinking, is if the elf in question is unconscious, subdued, or dead.

There have been city elves who've left the city, a couple of Kuracis come to mind in particular. They were the exception to the rule, and they did an amazing job of keeping to the documentation.

If you feel that city elves are just too difficult to play outside cities - you're right. It's intentional. Stop trying to do that, or learn how to accept the difficulty and RP it for all it's worth, as has happened in those rare exceptions in game history.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

My take-away regarding silt skimmers is that elves should not have any interest at all in being on one, ever. And on the off-chance that they get drunk and smoke way too much spice one day and suddenly in their drunken haze wonder what it might be like, their genetically-imprinted loathing of going anywhere via any method other than their own bodies would take over and make them change their own minds.

The same goes for riding in wagons. Unless they are the ones pulling that wagon - they'd want nothing to do with one. The only time you should ever see an elf on a wagon or a skimmer, in my thinking, is if the elf in question is unconscious, subdued, or dead.

There have been city elves who've left the city, a couple of Kuracis come to mind in particular. They were the exception to the rule, and they did an amazing job of keeping to the documentation.

If you feel that city elves are just too difficult to play outside cities - you're right. It's intentional. Stop trying to do that, or learn how to accept the difficulty and RP it for all it's worth, as has happened in those rare exceptions in game history.

This really has nothing to do with city elves leaving cities or complaints about such.  Stop assuming things of others.

And why, if you don't mind my asking, do you think elves should never have an interest in skimmers?

[Saellyn]

I'm not aware of code that automatically stores anyone or anything. Where is this coming from?

[Shabago]

That would be because no such thing exists.

[Dune Bunny]

I don't believe there's an auto-store code. I've never heard of such in over a decade.5 of playing. (edit: Shabago beat me to it. Daggum you!)

On the subject of elves and mounts/transports, just play by the documentation and the problem won't come up. It may feel unfair that one species doesn't have the same advantages as another, or may even be utterly worse all around -- but that's the game world. Elves compared to humans, commoners compared to nobles, etc. Things aren't fair in the world, and the game would be a much more boring place if all was balanced. (IMO)

[Kankfly]

Sometimes rumors are just rumors, and shouldn't be taken as truth. :/

I think if you do experience instances of it, the best way is to send in a request to find out the why and the how. That way the communication can be handled in a better manner since sometimes force-storage (if that's what you're talking about) happens due to certain IC sensitive situations, and they can be discussed more readily through the request tool.

[Narf]

That would be because no such thing exists.

The autostoring of elves on wagons, or the dwarves using punctuation? Because my brother's friend's aunt got her dwarf stored just as she accidentally typed her first comma.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Yes, sorry. I've heard of force-storage, and a more experienced player had told me of this "auto-storage".

However, a forced storage under such circumstances is pretty bad in itself...  It may as well be the same thing if a player is forced to store their character for "bad RP".

That would be because no such thing exists.

So, since you're here, would you be able to confirm or deny that under any of the above situations in the OP, would a player have been forced to retire their elf?

[Fredd]

I've long thought it silly Celves have pride in their ability to run when they can't even outrun dwarves.

I think the Celves should, logically, ride things by now. And Delves should be disgusted by it. They should spit on them in cities, and murder them in the sands.

However, I think this isn't done in order to force them into being criminals, and therefore enforcing the elf stereotype they want for the game. Which is a fine enough reason to me. They want the elves to be sneaky thieves and assassins.

[Narf]

I've long thought it silly Celves have pride in their ability to run when they can't even outrun dwarves.

In cities a city elf can outrun a dwarf, or pretty much everything else. I think they're technically a little slower than half-giants, but the giant will run out of stamina first.

[triste]

I've long thought it silly Celves have pride in their ability to run when they can't even outrun dwarves.

In cities a city elf can outrun a dwarf, or pretty much everything else.

Speedwalking around as a city elf was one of my fave Arma experiences recently so I can vouch for this. It's part of the reason I wish for a city elf tribe so badly. City elf roleplay can be amazingly fun [when they actually have a staff supported tribe in game particularly].

[Dresan]

Yes, sorry. I've heard of force-storage, and a more experienced player had told me of this "auto-storage".

However, a forced storage under such circumstances is pretty bad in itself...  It may as well be the same thing if a player is forced to store their character for "bad RP".

That would be because no such thing exists.

So, since you're here, would you be able to confirm or deny that under any of the above situations in the OP, would a player have been forced to retire their elf?

Basically the term is force store. However, generally speaking if the staff catch an elf riding mount/skimmers/wagons my understanding is they will automatically store your character.

As Shabago stated this should not be happening in the game. You cannot have an elf that is okay with riding.

I don't like it myself (at least wagons and skimmers) but those are the game rules.

[Shabago]

I can't remember a single time while I've been staffing that anyone has been stored for such, be it auto/forced or otherwise. It hasn't even really come up as by and large people play by the docs.

I can recall two times where a new player elf and one that looked like an elf (breed) were seen riding a mount. Both players were simply spoken to, and that was the end of the matter.

Is it /possible/ someone was force stored for such at some point? I suppose? In such a hypothetical, it would require them to actively go against documentation (repeatedly) and deliberately go against staff guidance to stop such behaviour.

[Dresan]

In short, if you are going against documentation and staff warning in this game you will stored.

So to answer the OP original question, no elves riding and if you do despite it all, you will be asked by staff to stop and eventually you will be stored if you do not.

Same difference.

[StrangledShriek]

It's really not. If you play the race according to the documentation you have no issues. If you don't, staff will happily nudge you into correcting that behavior. If you still don't, maybe you should just go play humans if you can't follow the rules.


Edit: If feels like this is some sidelong way to ask to let Elves ride in wagons. Just ask instead of whatever this thread is. (I highly doubt it'd happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask)

[triste]

Edit: If feels like this is some sidelong way to ask to let Elves ride in wagons. Just ask instead of whatever this thread is. (I highly doubt it'd happen, but it doesn't hurt to ask)

That was my sense of this thread as well.

As others stated if you break the documentation, get a warning, and continue to do so, you get stored. That part of the original post isn't specific to elves. So what part of this described problem is specific to elves?

A few things, and I understand the angst. It's crummy when a bunch of feature development is poured into something [wagons] completely denied to certain character concepts [elves], particularly when these deprived character concepts are also deprived of basic needs defined in the documentation but absent from the game [like a playable city elf tribe].

[Dar]

Havent bothered to read most of this thread. The moment I saw "auto storage" I've skipped.

Odds are there are good points in this thread, but when one starts something with such complete BS, I dont really want to participate.

[Dresan]

C-elves need x/y/z because x/y/z threads have been going on for years. There is a cycle to this things. Not enough hate for breeds is probably next in line.

That said,  the documentation does not make the state of elves in game clear enough, or outline just how much content in the game is denied to them. C-elves are the second largest race in the cities and yet it feels there are times when there are more defilers, muls and half-elves in the game then there are elven PCs.

It is a bleaker experience even if you join anyone of the few clan that takes elves. And that bleak experience is not at an IC level its OOC. That is because ICly you can have your vnpc tribe, the vnpc elf race in the background etc. However, OOCly you have to put up with the inability to join in many of the experience offered by clans you can join. If you want to experience that IC hate and discrimination while still having access to all the content you can play half-elves.

Lets not forget that all c-elves are thieves according to documentation, luckily people's OOC thoughts on stealth and thieves do not bleed into the game. I sure haven't heard PC in the game state that taverns are empty because of the thieves. I sure haven't played one of the few elves in the game only to have strangers find my mind accusing me of stealing their virtual shit. /sarcasm  Even certain interaction and opportunities utterly feel like OOC pity from players who understand the challenges of the role.

I sincerely believe that just one solution will not put elves in a better place. Even if the Juxa Pah opened, it would not be a long term solution,especially with the many of the game's plot devolving into who wants to kill who for whatever petty reason.   That said it would be a fun short term solution which I would watch the fireworks from afar

[Dresan]

I dont really want to participate.

Maybe put more effort at participating even less next time then?

[NinjaFruitSalad]

The only thing I am blatantly advocating for is letting elves ride skimmers. Because, again, elves cannot run on silt. They sink into it and die like everyone else. There's no travel benefit to skimming either that overshadows their ability to run seeing as there aren't even other ports to dock in. The whole point of skimming is basically to go out with a crew, exploring the seas for riches and opportunity. And fighting nasty tentacly death.

The purpose of this thread isn't to allow elves to ride mounts or wagons whenever they want. But I do want it allowed in very specific circumstances when the point of doing such isn't for ease of travel.

Look everyone, I'm sorry if the topic seems absurd. I'm a new player and I guess this person I was speaking to may have just been exaggerating or joking. But because I didn't know better, I thought it was the truth. Such a thing is certainly possible to do in code, anyway, and I didn't think it was farfetched.

Am I going to have to make a different thread but just focus on changing the documentation? I have got a lot of troll comments and mocking based on erroneous information about code. But the point still stands that the documentation needs a change. I'd rather not have to make a new thread, however, since I'd still pretty much be copy-pasting 90% of my OP.

[Lizzie]

The only thing I am blatantly advocating for is letting elves ride skimmers. Because, again, elves cannot run on silt. They sink into it and die like everyone else. There's no travel benefit to skimming either that overshadows their ability to run seeing as there aren't even other ports to dock in. The whole point of skimming is basically to go out with a crew, exploring the seas for riches and opportunity. And fighting nasty tentacly death.

The purpose of this thread isn't to allow elves to ride mounts or wagons whenever they want. But I do want it allowed in very specific circumstances when the point of doing such isn't for ease of travel.

Look everyone, I'm sorry if the topic seems absurd. I'm a new player and I guess this person I was speaking to may have just been exaggerating or joking. But because I didn't know better, I thought it was the truth. Such a thing is certainly possible to do in code, anyway, and I didn't think it was farfetched.

Am I going to have to make a different thread but just focus on changing the documentation? I have got a lot of troll comments and mocking based on erroneous information about code. But the point still stands that the documentation needs a change. I'd rather not have to make a new thread, however, since I'd still pretty much be copy-pasting 90% of my OP.

CITY elves tend to be fairly agoraphobic; that is to say, they rarely leave the city, or have any interest in leaving it - let alone go out on some scary real estate lacking completely in stable ground beneath their feet. So there's no reason why city elves SHOULD be able to go on silt skimmers. They wouldn't want to, so it's pointless to give it to them.

DESERT elves tend to be somewhat provincial; they tend to stick to their own territory, which can of course be fairly vast. DESERT elves would also have no reason to get on a contraption that moves over unstable ground.

If their own feet CAN'T do it, they would likely never trust any contraption to carry them.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I should point out that city elves can also live in Red Storm.  Sifting is also a popular profession there, which occurs outside the city (though at least not too far).  I believe the lure of fame and fortune could possibly coax a city elf out of Red Storm to go skimming.

However, you may be right about the explanation of just not trusting anything their feet can't do.  At least if something like that would be added to the documentation, it wouldn't contradict itself.

[Lizzie]

I should point out that city elves can also live in Red Storm.  Sifting is also a popular profession there, which occurs outside the city (though at least not too far).  I believe the lure of fame and fortune could possibly coax a city elf out of Red Storm to go skimming.

However, you may be right about the explanation of just not trusting anything their feet can't do.  At least if something like that would be added to the documentation, it wouldn't contradict itself.

I'd say they wouldn't trust anything their own bodies can't do. Since, for hypothetical shits and giggles, a snot-elemental mage can use the power of his own snot to travel.  So he still wouldn't ever trust a skimmer, since skimmers don't use snot to move over the silt.

[gotdamnmiracle]

The lore of elves believing riding/piloting is shameful is a stupid piece of poor writing. To me it appears to be an obvious balance choice that's been taken to a logical extreme as the game has progressed. If it is original Darksun lore it probably made sense in the D&D setting and in a MUD it loses all of it's luster.

I'm guessing that this is some sort of gimp to city elves so they don't get bonuses to do with their stats. From a gameplay perspective that's the only guess I can make. It is an extreme reduction in quality of life (wonder what the stats on elves in the byn versus every other race look like) and make the only reason to play them, aside from some really weird builds, pretty much only to earn goodboy points or terrorize about 100 rooms (to be read Allanak) out of the entire Known.

It's a stupid idea that should go the way of the halfling. Let Celfs ride, or all elves ride. The lore surrounding all elven customs (stealing, cannot ride, tests) show a bad understanding of racial identity and are generally poorly acted out by the players in my experience. That goes double for the "elven test" junk.

In a world where mantises and half-giants can apparently ride inix but elves can't? LOL

[gotdamnmiracle]

I'm double posting.

Elves are hyper insular. If you want interesting elves make all of their belief and customs tribe specific. If you very badly want elves who can't ride/pilot then make a tribe that believes that it is shameful. The genetic predisposition to dislike riding and like stealing reads like something between a fifth graders understanding of genetics and a 19th century racist's first pass at a theory justifying scientific racism.

[Spider]

Glad to see this discussion come around again.  To me, a general antagonism between elves and everyone else is a sufficient racial distinction from which to launch fun and interesting RP.  The riding/piloting restriction only succeeds in making a chore out of the parts of the game that I find most fun, like wandering, exploring, and high adventure, while playing a city elf.  I'm aware of the justification by the documentation for it, but it really isn't something necessary to keep around for the health, and RP fun, of the game. 

Though, nothing stops you from playing an antagonistic towards everyone human, so there's that.

Thanks for bringing this up, and I hope it gets serious consideration.

I dream of the day of a byn unit filled with elves, humans, and dwarves, getting into fights with one another before riding out together on a contract.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

[Dresan]

I don't think we will ever see elves riding mounts but I think a more plausible change would be to let them run in the desert like their d-elf cousins can.

Considering the following:

• c-elves still cannot take wilderness classes
• the disadvantages of being attack/charged at by a mounted enemy or animals
• low strength that need to be prioritized above endurance, high agility which hinders being able to learn combat from animals
• c-elf endurance is shit even if prioritized and resting under the sun takes a long time

Basically they will still really suck outdoors but still be able to perform a little better in the clans they can join like the byn and garrison. It might also allow staff to review the clans they currently can and can not join and see where they might be able to make some changes to give elves more clan opportunities.

Allowing elves to join Salarr and Kadius as low level merchants might help things, GMHs are not nobles, and some restriction there could be eased up.

I mention this because I don't think a clan like the bejeweled hand is what Allanak needs, especially with two-moons doing a bit of the elven merchant thing already with some opportunities for c-elves. And yet when I think of the current state of plots in the game, the only thing that comes to mind when I think of a clan like the Juxa Pah opening up is the song 'Let the bodies hit the floor (Bodies)--by Drowning Pool'

[Greve]

C-elves need x/y/z because x/y/z threads have been going on for years. There is a cycle to this things. Not enough hate for breeds is probably next in line.

That said,  the documentation does not make the state of elves in game clear enough, or outline just how much content in the game is denied to them. C-elves are the second largest race in the cities and yet it feels there are times when there are more defilers, muls and half-elves in the game then there are elven PCs.

It is a bleaker experience even if you join anyone of the few clan that takes elves. And that bleak experience is not at an IC level its OOC. That is because ICly you can have your vnpc tribe, the vnpc elf race in the background etc. However, OOCly you have to put up with the inability to join in many of the experience offered by clans you can join. If you want to experience that IC hate and discrimination while still having access to all the content you can play half-elves.

Lets not forget that all c-elves are thieves according to documentation, luckily people's OOC thoughts on stealth and thieves do not bleed into the game. I sure haven't heard PC in the game state that taverns are empty because of the thieves. I sure haven't played one of the few elves in the game only to have strangers find my mind accusing me of stealing their virtual shit. /sarcasm  Even certain interaction and opportunities utterly feel like OOC pity from players who understand the challenges of the role.

I sincerely believe that just one solution will not put elves in a better place. Even if the Juxa Pah opened, it would not be a long term solution,especially with the many of the game's plot devolving into who wants to kill who for whatever petty reason.   That said it would be a fun short term solution which I would watch the fireworks from afar

Which coded clans even remain that are available to c-elves? The Byn, the Garrison (can elves join that?) and I suppose they could probably join the Crimson Wind if those are still active. Isn't that it? To my knowledge, none of the eastside 'rinth ones are open anymore. Those were really the only clans where elves felt right, because even if they're allowed to join the Byn, they're pretty useless there due to the inability to ride.

Aside from the shortage of clans for the race, one of the main things that keep c-elves so underplayed is their awful stats--or, rather, the inflated importance of strength. Strength makes such a ridiculously big difference in combat that a race with low strength is just not appealing for fighter types. Desert elves can get away with it a little better due to their high racial stealth skills and the fact that they're much better suited for archery.

I would give c-elves the same innate stealth skills as d-elves, and nerf the strength stat's contribution to damage so that its impact on combat performance isn't so mindbogglingly huge. That change would be good for the game in general, not just for elves. It's long past due that a coder looks into the staggering imbalance of stats, and I think that plays a much bigger role in the shortage of elves than things like their inability to ride skimmers and wagons. Those are things you can roleplay around, and which won't matter to most elven characters. Doing half the damage of a human is something that affects all elven combat characters.

And is there an open eastside 'rinth clan? I can't be certain if there still is and it's just dead or if they've all been closed. The goal should really be for there to always be one active clan on each side of the 'rinth. We've even seen role calls for the Guild on occasion. Why not try to bolster the elven side a little? This is an area that absolutely requires clan activity in order to function at all. Last time there was one, the eastside seemed to do just fine. If it still exists but simply hasn't got any players in it, whip up a sponsored role for it.

[seidhr]

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

[Saellyn]

[Lizzie]

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

So, wait - are you saying I can set up a tent, get inside it, and "pilot north" to move the tent while I"m in it?

[Dresan]

As far as I know c-elves have the following options:

• Byn (ride heavy)
• Garrison (ride heavy)
• Kurac (no idea what progression is available for c-elves in Kurac anymore. potentially travel heavy)
• Two-moon (c-elves joining the much more code superior but RP restricted d-elves. lol. Run heavy.)

They cannot join crimson wind and the only clan option in the Rinth has been equivalent to start up player clan with no real coded support which i don't even think is even around anymore.  The current state of the game is one where the biggest plots are basically who wants to kill who for whatever petty reason,  and PC elves have the least coded IC support and the least coded power.

I just don't quite believe a c-elf tribe will solve all the problems here.

RogueGunslinger has the right idea though at this point, after so many years this is just how things are in the game. Just wish whenever anyone was trying to play an elf people would get a warning sign that is just not physical strength they are being denied.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Oh. I don't think anything will change. I can't think of one time criticisms like this have sparked any good change. I have a feeling this probably won't ever change. Well, not unless, WoTC comes a callin' and threatens the game again. I'm certain then we'd see a whole lot of short-lived originality.

[seidhr]

So, wait - are you saying I can set up a tent, get inside it, and "pilot north" to move the tent while I"m in it?

No, the controlling of the wagon movement is done via some Javascripts that be attached to a particular room to make a particular "wagon" object move around. That's done separately from defining the object itself, that you enter (which is the 'wagon').  That's why wagons can have one or many rooms, because the piloting scripts are just attached in the one place.  If some staffer put the piloting javascripts into a tent though, then yes, you could totally do that!

[AdamBlue]

So, wait - are you saying I can set up a tent, get inside it, and "pilot north" to move the tent while I"m in it?

No, the controlling of the wagon movement is done via some Javascripts that be attached to a particular room to make a particular "wagon" object move around. That's done separately from defining the object itself, that you enter (which is the 'wagon').  That's why wagons can have one or many rooms, because the piloting scripts are just attached in the one place.  If some staffer put the piloting javascripts into a tent though, then yes, you could totally do that!

So what you're telling me is that I can put wheels on my tent and tell staff to let me drive it around.

[DesertT]

[mirk_o_loio]

I'Ll customcraft that right now.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

[Lizzie]

I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

[Spider]

I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

It's more like, the RP fun of playing city elves would improve if the documentation enforcing an ultimately arbitrary stipulation was removed.  Has nothing to do with real life other than it would be more fun if it were otherwise, to those that argue it ought to change.  That staff haven't changed things is not a reason to stop trying.  People change their minds all the time, especially as the years go on.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Probably also something to consider. I really doubt this is just the same person nagging over and over, like a whiny child.

I'm sure over the years, there have been many different people asking for this.  And where are they now?  Well, I don't know, but from what I understand the population has declined somewhat and we've lost content.. many people say the game world has shrunk to accommodate a smaller playerbase.

[Lizzie]

I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

It's more like, the RP fun of playing city elves would improve if the documentation enforcing an ultimately arbitrary stipulation was removed.  Has nothing to do with real life other than it would be more fun if it were otherwise, to those that argue it ought to change.  That staff haven't changed things is not a reason to stop trying.  People change their minds all the time, especially as the years go on.

The RP fun for players who want city elves to be something other than what the documentation says they are, would improve. The RP fun for people who like playing city elves the way they are, would decrease.

There are options to play almost anything you want in Armageddon. If you don't like the style of RP required to play a city elf, you can pick a different one.

City elves are definitely not for everyone. I've never played one, because it seemed too intimidating to try. But they are what they are, and the rest of the world interacts with them the way they do, because of the documentation. They're a quirky sub-species with a quirky background built into their existence.

So are muls, so are dwarves and so are half-giants. They have their weaknesses, and are not easy to play well, and are limited in scope. If we were to broaden the coded scope of them, or changed their lore - if we didn't make half-giants stupid, or dwarves have a focus, or muls have the whole futility thing going for them - the entire game would cease to be what it was intended to be.

[Spider]

I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

It's more like, the RP fun of playing city elves would improve if the documentation enforcing an ultimately arbitrary stipulation was removed.  Has nothing to do with real life other than it would be more fun if it were otherwise, to those that argue it ought to change.  That staff haven't changed things is not a reason to stop trying.  People change their minds all the time, especially as the years go on.

The RP fun for players who want city elves to be something other than what the documentation says they are, would improve. The RP fun for people who like playing city elves the way they are, would decrease.

There are options to play almost anything you want in Armageddon. If you don't like the style of RP required to play a city elf, you can pick a different one.

City elves are definitely not for everyone. I've never played one, because it seemed too intimidating to try. But they are what they are, and the rest of the world interacts with them the way they do, because of the documentation. They're a quirky sub-species with a quirky background built into their existence.

So are muls, so are dwarves and so are half-giants. They have their weaknesses, and are not easy to play well, and are limited in scope. If we were to broaden the coded scope of them, or changed their lore - if we didn't make half-giants stupid, or dwarves have a focus, or muls have the whole futility thing going for them - the entire game would cease to be what it was intended to be.

If I could quote simpler I would.  You are right, the game would change in a way it wasn't intended to be, just as it has several times over the years.  I know you are concerned about the slippery slope, but I am not arguing for changing half-giants and muls.  They can still interact with the coded world, as in traveling reasonably around, and that's the main issue.  It's not as if I am asking to change elvish mentality, or general hatred toward them, I enjoy those things.  However, I do not enjoy the chore it is to experience the coded world with them as a result of the pain in the ass it is to travel with city elves.

I think it'd improve city elves as a playable race by allowing them to play in a byn like clan, while also being able to do you know... Byn things, without OOCly pulling one's hair out.

Edited to add: As far as the choice thing and some people finding it less fun if the change comes in doesn't really work.  A player can choose, if a change happens, to play an elf the old way.  There is no restriction doing that as far as documentation.  The restriction that exists now stifles game play, lifting the restriction does not.

[Lizzie]

If I could quote simpler I would.  You are right, the game would change in a way it wasn't intended to be, just as it has several times over the years.  I know you are concerned about the slippery slope, but I am not arguing for changing half-giants and muls.  They can still interact with the coded world, as in traveling reasonably around, and that's the main issue.  It's not as if I am asking to change elvish mentality, or general hatred toward them, I enjoy those things.  However, I do not enjoy the chore it is to experience the coded world with them as a result of the pain in the ass it is to travel with city elves.

I think it'd improve city elves as a playable race by allowing them to play in a byn like clan, while also being able to do you know... Byn things, without OOCly pulling one's hair out.

Edited to add: As far as the choice thing and some people finding it less fun if the change comes in doesn't really work.  A player can choose, if a change happens, to play an elf the old way.  There is no restriction doing that as far as documentation.  The restriction that exists now stifles game play, lifting the restriction does not.

To un-nest while still quoting the latest response - start at the end of the first line of text, which is the quote code for the most recent person to post prior to your new response. Press the control key, then arrow down until you get to the first line of text of the most recent response. Hit the delete button. Control-end to get the cursor to appear at the end of the [../...quote...] and start typing. Old-style keyboarding FTW

I guess - to me, the entire point of playing a city elf is to play a character who has NO Interest, ever, of leaving the city. If you want to play an elf who leaves the city, instead of asking for a city elf that rides, just make a desert elf. I would be much more in favor of restoring SOME options for non-coded elf tribes, than I would in giving city elves the "permission" to ride in a wagon or on a silt skimmer.

And I feel that no elf would ever want to go to the silt sea, at all, ever. If you want to play a character who might have an interest in the silt sea, then don't play an elf. You can play a breed that passes as an elf, and hides that dirty little secret of being a breed, until that moment when he gets on a silt skimmer. It can make for some pretty awesome RP, I think.

[mansa]

The thing I want to take into account, is that elves are an extremely popular race in the fantasy playspace.  They are the #2 race after humans in terms of playing in roleplaying games.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/

In ArmageddonMUD, they are a 0 karma race, available to anyone.

I feel that in order to make the race more attractive and easier to play for brand new players, some of the limitations and characteristics of elves within our game should be reassessed to allow an easier roleplaying experience.  We want players to be able to jump in and get it, and start playing out the world of Zalanthas.

Yes, change some of the aspects of the city elf race in the game world to make it easier to play.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I do not think a slight change to documentation on elves would negatively impact anyone. What I've been asking for is a bit more leniency and freedom with their behaviors, and the only reasoning behind this is because the documentation itself seems self-contradictory without any of the caveats presented. What should make sense to do and be justifiable turns out to be a sacrilegious idea..  when the very reason given for such notions does not apply at all.

I mean, if you want to keep being a thieving scoundrel, you can go right on ahead.  If you want to RP an elf that absolutely, vehemently, will never EVER board a wagon no matter what, for any purpose, even if it's not moving, you could also still do that.

[Lizzie]

The thing I want to take into account, is that elves are an extremely popular race in the fantasy playspace.  They are the #2 race after humans in terms of playing in roleplaying games.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/

In ArmageddonMUD, they are a 0 karma race, available to anyone.

I feel that in order to make the race more attractive and easier to play for brand new players, some of the limitations and characteristics of elves within our game should be reassessed to allow an easier roleplaying experience.  We want players to be able to jump in and get it, and start playing out the world of Zalanthas.

Yes, change some of the aspects of the city elf race in the game world to make it easier to play.

How about an option for elves who don't gen in an actual city, and are also not desert elves?

A Luir's or Red Storm-based elf.

They would be the odd duck of elves - tribal only to the effect that they congregate primarily with other elves in their base location. They would still not ride mounts. They would have SOME of the advantage of desert elves - perhaps they'd automatically come with the climb skill, would not be able to get the lockpicking skill, and would have a reduced stamina drain when running outside the city. But not as much as desert elves get. Plus - a Luir's based elf would begrudgingly accept work on a wagon - but ONLY if they were employed by Kurac. A Red-storm based elf would begrudgingly accept work on a silt skimmer - but would never be capable of piloting one.

In either case, the odd-duck elf would be the subject of scorn among both city and desert elves.

They would have the accent of their location - either northern or southern, but not rinthi or tribal.

[number13]

C-elves should be degenerate goblins who will do anything to get ahead --

-- except ride around on a wagon, kank, or silt-skimmer (or accept movement-enhancing magic from their buddies, for that matter). It's too much apart of their core OOC identity. And it's an interesting problem to have to think about. If you don't want to deal with it play a half-elf. Or a mutant human with sharp ears, and an uncanny resemblance to Galadriel.

That said, c-elves should have more ability to run around the desert on their own two feet. A boost there would go a long way to making them playable in Kurac and the Byn. And full-blooded c-elves should have a little more of a social leg-up on the eastside and other c-elfy places.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

[Spider]

C-elves should be degenerate goblins who will do anything to get ahead --

-- except ride around on a wagon, kank, or silt-skimmer (or accept movement-enhancing magic from their buddies, for that matter). It's too much apart of their core OOC identity. And it's an interesting problem to have to think about. If you don't want to deal with it play a half-elf. Or a mutant human with sharp ears, and an uncanny resemblance to Galadriel.

That said, c-elves should have more ability to run around the desert on their own two feet. A boost there would go a long way to making them playable in Kurac and the Byn. And full-blooded c-elves should have a little more of a social leg-up on the eastside and other c-elfy places.

You can play a human like an elf.  However, the world will not react the same way to your PC as it would if it was an elf.  Playing a breed like an elf would run afoul of breed documentation.  From what I understand, mutants are just mutants, with a world response unique to that affliction.  The riding stipulation for elves is stand alone as far as core mentality.  It follows from pride in using their own body to accomplish travel.  Removing that, changes nothing else from Elvish documentation.  They will still be prideful, just not about that.  Instead their pride could stem from the ability to handle mounts and wagons better than any one else.

Over the years, I've played many elves, and enjoy the experience a great deal.  However, the lack of travelling does lead me to avoid them for the most part.  It really is just a separate tick from the rest of the elvish RP.  There was a point where elvish documentation included a propensity for wandering, but that changed in order to make things more consistent.  To me, the correct change was to remove the no ride/pilot stipulation not the propensity for wandering stipulation, for the sake of consistency.  Perhaps with a change to the no ride/pilot, the game could see more elves kicking about that aren't city sneaks.  Thus giving more opportunities for degenerate goblin RP, aside from there goes the weapon on someone's belt.

Mansa brought up a great point that I must give a nod to.

[Brokkr]

We intend for city elves to be suited to city play.  To remain in the cities (or towns).  Its even in their name.

Leaving the city should be quite challenging for a city elf.

We are not looking to change this dynamic.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

We intend for city elves to be suited to city play.  To remain in the cities (or towns).  Its even in their name.

Leaving the city should be quite challenging for a city elf.

We are not looking to change this dynamic.

I get that, and that's not what this thread was aiming to do. Aside from skimming on the silt seas for riches and death.

Can we at least get some reassurance that elf raiders boarding a moving wagon to kill invaders on that wagon isn't a taboo thing? The same sort of documentation would apply to desert elves, even more.

[HeeBeeGB]

The concept is only foreign I think because we are looking at it from a meta/code/ease of play standpoint. But there are plenty of fantastical and real cultures that would never fight or brandish a weapon even to defend themselves, ride horses even when everyone else is riding horses, and so on. I think the issue is really that we would all buy this whole sale if it was a trio of City Elf tribes that were open for play, and all of them shared these beliefs, culturally. The way it is sold to us in Armageddon (And honestly, via Dark Sun) is it is a 'racial trait'. It's odd to think of that being a racial trait. A culturally inherited trait passed down from generation to generation? That makes sense. But every culture also adapts to their environments and surroundings to survive.

I think the documentation could be tweaked to reflect more of an agreed upon cultural tradition, including exile and shaming by other elves if it is broken. That makes much more sense to me than 'No elf will ever ride a mount or get on a wagon, because racial pride'.

All of the grey area stuff (like what Lizzie posted) I semi-agree with. I don't see city elves putting themselves in situations where they would be leaving the city (often) or desiring to ride versus walking. It gets stickier when the opportunities available to elves for gainful employment are a) crime b) the Byn and c) crime.

I don't think anyone said being a City Elf should be easy. It is hard, supremely difficult, and sometimes rewarding to play one. But a lot of the roadblocks that stand in their way of being enjoyable despite the hardships they face are OOC in nature, or at least OOCly imposed and enforced.

For Example:
1. A Elf can ride in a wagon. But if they do so, they'll likely be stored, as they are not playing with current documentation. The same could be said of a half-giant having a sexual relationship with a human. It's likely going to lead to storage. They're not exactly equitable, but they involve 'racial role-play' and what you can or cannot do within the limits of the documentation.

2. A City Elf can join the T'zai Byn as one of its only 'non crime' related job paths. But while in the Byn, they are an utter drag on contracts, as they have to rest every 10 minutes. They don't ride mounts, because they're too proud to do so. Clients on contract rarely understand why the Byn Sergeant just 'had to bring the elf'. So most Byn Sergeants just leave them at home, unless they absolutely enjoy masochism. Elves understand this. Bynners understand this. Even the Clients complaining understand this. People gloss over it, and some Sergeants (thankfully) take the time to bring the elf, and some Clients don't overly complain about the extra time it takes to complete a contract because of them.

3. A City Elf thrives mainly with crime in a city, currently, in Allanak. However, they are also fully prepared to be blamed for every crime in the city, even the ones they didn't commit. This is part of the juice of being a city elf, and part of what drives their anti-establishment mentality for the most part. I don't think anything is wrong with this. But as the only path/trope for the race, it does get old.

I don't think allowing City Elves to rides solves it. I do think giving them a somewhat healthy boost to stamina might. I think tweaking the documentation to shift away from 'racially inherited traits' to more culturally inherited and understood pathologies makes sense. I think making it less black and white also makes sense -- Make it so taboo to ride or be on a wagon that other elves will stop at nothing to kill you if they hear you did it. That sounds like more intriguing story play than forbidding it entirely in an OOC sense. More difficult to police, surely, especially for a 0 Karma race. So perhaps it needs to be increased to 1 Karma, along with new caveats.

[Dresan]

I think we need to differentiated between IC and OOC challenging.

Having to work harder to earn the acceptance of your team because no one trusts elves is ICly challenging. This is great to have in the game.

Having to spend your precious time bored or idly because you character does not have the ability to join in the clan designated fun is OOCly challenge. This is not something that should be in the game. 

There doesn't need to be any big justification for reducing OOC challenges of a 0 karma race, other then the fact this is a game and we want the experiences to be as OOCly fun as possible. 

[LindseyBalboa]

It really isn't hard to just role play elves as having so much pride they wouldn't even consider riding shit. Like it's really easy and it actually adds a lot to playing an elf, especially a city elf in Allanak who is completely despised by most but still inherently and completely feels better than everyone that isn't sharp-eared.

OOCly, I've never had a problem as a c-elf in the Byn, the Sarges typically think about you more than you would.

+in favor of c-elf tribe though

[Alizerin]

2. A City Elf can join the T'zai Byn as one of its only 'non crime' related job paths. But while in the Byn, they are an utter drag on contracts, as they have to rest every 10 minutes. They don't ride mounts, because they're too proud to do so. Clients on contract rarely understand why the Byn Sergeant just 'had to bring the elf'. So most Byn Sergeants just leave them at home, unless they absolutely enjoy masochism. Elves understand this. Bynners understand this. Even the Clients complaining understand this. People gloss over it, and some Sergeants (thankfully) take the time to bring the elf, and some Clients don't overly complain about the extra time it takes to complete a contract because of them.

<snip>

I don't think allowing City Elves to rides solves it. I do think giving them a somewhat healthy boost to stamina might. I think tweaking the documentation to shift away from 'racially inherited traits' to more culturally inherited and understood pathologies makes sense. I think making it less black and white also makes sense -- Make it so taboo to ride or be on a wagon that other elves will stop at nothing to kill you if they hear you did it. That sounds like more intriguing story play than forbidding it entirely in an OOC sense. More difficult to police, surely, especially for a 0 Karma race. So perhaps it needs to be increased to 1 Karma, along with new caveats.

I've long thought that "Running" should be a Skill that all Elves get. Effectively, it's Ride, for Elves.

• Max Running (95%) = Current Desert Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics
• Min Running (5%) = Current starting City Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics

The Staff could set the difficulty of raising the Running skill to whatever level they wanted it to be. Further, they could cap it at whatever level they wanted it to be. While all Desert Elves would be Masters at Running, City Elves might start out as Novices and never progress beyond Journeyman. Or, not: the staff could choose to set no limits and a city-elf dedicated to Running may one day master the skill and become essentially almost identical to a desert elf.

This would allow avenues for starting City Elves access content and join organizations like House Kurac and the T'zai Byn, and - while possibly never getting as good at Running as their wilderness cousins - they would have the possibility of eventually getting better with training.

[Hauwke]

2. A City Elf can join the T'zai Byn as one of its only 'non crime' related job paths. But while in the Byn, they are an utter drag on contracts, as they have to rest every 10 minutes. They don't ride mounts, because they're too proud to do so. Clients on contract rarely understand why the Byn Sergeant just 'had to bring the elf'. So most Byn Sergeants just leave them at home, unless they absolutely enjoy masochism. Elves understand this. Bynners understand this. Even the Clients complaining understand this. People gloss over it, and some Sergeants (thankfully) take the time to bring the elf, and some Clients don't overly complain about the extra time it takes to complete a contract because of them.

<snip>

I don't think allowing City Elves to rides solves it. I do think giving them a somewhat healthy boost to stamina might. I think tweaking the documentation to shift away from 'racially inherited traits' to more culturally inherited and understood pathologies makes sense. I think making it less black and white also makes sense -- Make it so taboo to ride or be on a wagon that other elves will stop at nothing to kill you if they hear you did it. That sounds like more intriguing story play than forbidding it entirely in an OOC sense. More difficult to police, surely, especially for a 0 Karma race. So perhaps it needs to be increased to 1 Karma, along with new caveats.

I've long thought that "Running" should be a Skill that all Elves get. Effectively, it's Ride, for Elves.

• Max Running (95%) = Current Desert Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics
• Min Running (5%) = Current starting City Elf Stamina Bonuses/Run Mechanics

The Staff could set the difficulty of raising the Running skill to whatever level they wanted it to be. Further, they could cap it at whatever level they wanted it to be. While all Desert Elves would be Masters at Running, City Elves might start out as Novices and never progress beyond Journeyman. Or, not: the staff could choose to set no limits and a city-elf dedicated to Running may one day master the skill and become essentially almost identical to a desert elf.

This would allow avenues for starting City Elves access content and join organizations like House Kurac and the T'zai Byn, and - while possibly never getting as good at Running as their wilderness cousins - they would have the possibility of eventually getting better with training.

+1 to the Running idea.

Makes them work for the benefit. Though, make it only raise very slow and only when outside the cities.

[rinthrat]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

You would be the odd one out, and suddenly playing up to these restrictions gets a lot harder and less acceptable for you, too ("Sharpie over there is riding, why can't you? Hop on before I whip you for insubordination, Runner.")

If you want to ride around, play a breed that really looks up to elves. Why does it have to be an elf? There are plenty of races that can travel as much as they want and/or like. City elves have a niche, why water it down?

[Lizzie]

We intend for city elves to be suited to city play.  To remain in the cities (or towns).  Its even in their name.

Leaving the city should be quite challenging for a city elf.

We are not looking to change this dynamic.

I totally get that and agree with it.

My suggestion up-thread was to distinguish between a city-generated city elf, and a city elf that doesn't start out in a city. Allanak is huge, there's tons to do for an elf who never leaves it.

Luir's and Red Storm are tiny, and there's a very limited amount of things they can do, other than - leave it and do things outside the walls.

The suggestion would be for a minor mutation (it's been several Kings' Ages since the genetic split of desert:city elf race). City elves would still be exactly as they are now. Except - you wouldn't be able to roll up a city elf that's based anywhere OTHER than the city. With the only playable city currently being Allanak (and the attached Rinth). Genning a city elf in Luir's or Red Storm shouldn't be an option at all.

Instead, a non-desert, non-city elf should exist, that is not allowed to gen anywhere other than Luir's or Red Storm. They would come with their own lore. They're still elves. They still wouldn't ride animals. Their stamina loss for being outside their base would not be as good as an elf who was born outside the walls of the base. But better than that of the "lesser races." One in Red Storm would accept silt skimmers as an option. One in Luir's might accept standing in a Kurac wagon as an option. Neither would ever own or pilot one, not even to steal it. Everything else about elven mores and innate personality traits would be exactly the same.

So there'd basically be the desert elves, the city elves, and the hybrid elves. They'd all be elves.

[Lizzie]

Another idea that just popped out of my head:

Specifically regarding wagons and skimmers.

Add code such that if an elf were to move inside/on top of either thing, they lose stun points, slowly. With a coded echo to them expressing their claustrophobia. If it gets bad enough, they start losing stamina points, and then, they start sweating, as if they were poisoned.

Give them a coded physiological aversion to riding in a wagon or on a silt skimmer to help explain WHY they feel that their own bodies are superior methods of transportation than riding in/on a wagon/skimmer.

That way - special snowflake Errol the Elf can still ride - but he and his entire crew will have to accommodate his presence there with breaks to allow the elf to get out of the wagon from time to time and recover.

[Doublepalli]

Keep in mind elves have stood in wagons before, only if the wagons move their heads explode

[Lizzie]

Keep in mind elves have stood in wagons before, only if the wagons move their heads explode

The consequences of elves standing in wagons has always been left up to the players, or on occasion staff intervention on a case-by-case basis.

I'm suggesting there be coded consequences, so elves COULD ostensibly do it - but with coded penalties that reinforce and support the RP aspect of it.

[Spider]

A karma based tribeless elf that plays in and out of the city with appropriate skill/stamina changes would go a long way in resolving my number one frustration with playing non desert elf elves.   Some nice ideas posted up so far.

[Spider]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

You would be the odd one out, and suddenly playing up to these restrictions gets a lot harder and less acceptable for you, too ("Sharpie over there is riding, why can't you? Hop on before I whip you for insubordination, Runner.")

If you want to ride around, play a breed that really looks up to elves. Why does it have to be an elf? There are plenty of races that can travel as much as they want and/or like. City elves have a niche, why water it down?

It has to be an elf for the elvish mentality and the world response associated with playing an elf.  A breed is NOT an elf, especially internally.

[Khorm]

what if your elf's feet (somehow  ) don't touch the ground while the wagon is moving. they'd have to have a pretty good prosecutor to get you on that one.

[Saellyn]

I don't recommend playing a breed that looks like an elf and then following up by riding a mount. The point of a breed looking more like an elf is that more elvish tendencies come out, from my understanding of it, including that quirky little hatred for anything too weak to walk on its own feet.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Lizzie, can you please explain to me how removing a coded restriction placed on an in game race would decrease the enjoyment of those playing them?

In fact, I'll extend that to anyone who agrees with that sentiment.

You would be the odd one out, and suddenly playing up to these restrictions gets a lot harder and less acceptable for you, too ("Sharpie over there is riding, why can't you? Hop on before I whip you for insubordination, Runner.")

If you want to ride around, play a breed that really looks up to elves. Why does it have to be an elf? There are plenty of races that can travel as much as they want and/or like. City elves have a niche, why water it down?

Can you not roleplay this restriction? I don't hear anyone requesting we add restrictions to the way dwarven focuses are handled.

Also, the city elf "niche" is to operate in a 50 room area that is so completely forgotten by those writing the lore that they can't even maintain a single elven tribe there. Oh, and don't forget, relationship to the tribe is equally important if not more to elves as shame for riding. Assuming we're going off the docs here.

No. City elves are an awful slog to play. Their documentation is a mess and they're half baked as a race concept. The main location they play in lacks any tribes they are to join. They remain objectively the worst race choice at chargen. They either need to be rethought or not exist, hard stop.

[rinthrat]

Can you not roleplay this restriction? I don't hear anyone requesting we add restrictions to the way dwarven focuses are handled.

It's not coded. City-elves can hop onto a mount just fine, I've done this when nobody was looking because there is no other way to title a mount, and I needed my mount to have a unique keyword.

Also, the city elf "niche" is to operate in a 50 room area that is so completely forgotten by those writing the lore that they can't even maintain a single elven tribe there. Oh, and don't forget, relationship to the tribe is equally important if not more to elves as shame for riding. Assuming we're going off the docs here.

They're good inside the city, not just Eastside. Plenty of people play characters that never leave the walls, or do so only in extreme circumstances. City-elves aren't even unique in that way.

No. City elves are an awful slog to play. Their documentation is a mess and they're half baked as a race concept. The main location they play in lacks any tribes they are to join. They remain objectively the worst race choice at chargen. They either need to be rethought or not exist, hard stop.

I had a great time on my city-elves. I assume this was similar for other celf players at the time, or they wouldn't have stuck around as long as they did. "I don't like playing them" is not a good reason to remove something from the game - nobody is forcing you to play one and at least some of us do like playing them.

[Spider]

Can you not roleplay this restriction? I don't hear anyone requesting we add restrictions to the way dwarven focuses are handled.

It's not coded. City-elves can hop onto a mount just fine, I've done this when nobody was looking because there is no other way to title a mount, and I needed my mount to have a unique keyword.

Also, the city elf "niche" is to operate in a 50 room area that is so completely forgotten by those writing the lore that they can't even maintain a single elven tribe there. Oh, and don't forget, relationship to the tribe is equally important if not more to elves as shame for riding. Assuming we're going off the docs here.

They're good inside the city, not just Eastside. Plenty of people play characters that never leave the walls, or do so only in extreme circumstances. City-elves aren't even unique in that way.

No. City elves are an awful slog to play. Their documentation is a mess and they're half baked as a race concept. The main location they play in lacks any tribes they are to join. They remain objectively the worst race choice at chargen. They either need to be rethought or not exist, hard stop.

I had a great time on my city-elves. I assume this was similar for other celf players at the time, or they wouldn't have stuck around as long as they did. "I don't like playing them" is not a good reason to remove something from the game - nobody is forcing you to play one and at least some of us do like playing them.

I enjoy playing them as well.  However, I do think they need a boost to make them a more interesting and fun race to play.  For me, obviously, the big one is their ability to travel.  The documentation quite clearly states why this is the case, but to me it is a mistake.  I know for one thing, if city elves could travel better, via the ability to ride, pilot, or just a boost to stamina, I would play them a lot more often.

Some times even if one accomplishes what they intend on accomplishing, the result is not so good, or has room for improvement.

[CodeMaster]

It may be some small help to know that the stamina drop on roads is smaller than the stamina drop on dunes and rocks.  If you're a Byn sergeant you can do the elves a huge favor by being diligent about staying on roads.

[Brokkr]

For me, obviously, the big one is their ability to travel.

One could come at this from the perspective of "City elves are actually masters of traveling."

They can sneak from the Rinth to the Commoner Quarter faster than your human can walk that distance.

They can run that distance faster than anyone without elf blood.

I can think of one or two things that would be nice for them to have, that would help their ability to travel, in their domain.  Neither of which has been mentioned here.

Outside their domain, where they aren't really supposed to be that often, yeah, they suck.  But looking at someplace they aren't supposed to be anyways and saying they need to be better there elicits a Meh response.  Because they aren't supposed to be there often.  So they suck there, so you don't play them there often.

[Spider]

For me, obviously, the big one is their ability to travel.

One could come at this from the perspective of "City elves are actually masters of traveling."

They can sneak from the Rinth to the Commoner Quarter faster than your human can walk that distance.

They can run that distance faster than anyone without elf blood.

I can think of one or two things that would be nice for them to have, that would help their ability to travel, in their domain.  Neither of which has been mentioned here.

Outside their domain, where they aren't really supposed to be that often, yeah, they suck.  But looking at someplace they aren't supposed to be anyways and saying they need to be better there elicits a Meh response.  Because they aren't supposed to be there often.  So they suck there, so you don't play them there often.

We know where they are supposed to be, and why they are no good outside of that domain.  Staff have done a great job in pigeon holing city elves into cities and city type roles with respect to the documentation and code.  What I am saying is that this design, in this game, makes them less fun to play than other options.  So much so that it is the number one reason I tend to avoid them.  The game has A LOT going for it outside the city.

Of course me avoiding elves is no big deal in the grand scheme.  There are other options to do the things I like to do in game.  All of this is just a heads up on how to maybe make city elves more playable for folks like me, not some disagreement about what ought to be the case as far as city elf ability with respect to current documentation.  Elvish documentation for the most part is great, but stifling when it comes to travel for once again, a player like me.  Nice try on the "master of travel" thing though.  However, it has nothing to do with what many of us were actually talking about.

Anyway, think I've beaten the drum enough this go around.  Hope to see a change, but it's not an all or nothing for me thing either.

[Riev]

Anecdotally, I played a city elf in Luir's. Merchant class. I was able to travel from Luirs to Allanak, and back, to make sales and trades and whatnot.

It was not easy. Luckily, there was an ex-Byn City Elf who was working as a mercenary who helped me make the run, but we made it all the way to Allanak with a pack beast, I made tons of coins, and made it all the way home. There were a number of rest stops in between, but it was doable codedly.

ICly... he was afraid for his goddamned life the entire time. It was way too open, way too easy for some bird to just come peck his eyes out. Not something he would want to do alone. He would never have imagined jumping on a wagon or doing anything that wasn't HIS way, though.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Riev, I suggest you reread the post of mine you responded to. You have failed to grasp my points and either shifted the narrative or apparently argued against what you think my points were. For example you misread my question about roleplaying the restriction about being able to ride. I was asking about roleplaying the shame of having to ride/having ridden and how the storage response of this is only enforced in the case of elves. You can ask questions if you're confused before writing a whole post.

I love seeing the No Mans Sky argument in real life where people try frantically to defend something flawed. Here we can see arguments like "it's actually fun with friends", as if a blank white room wouldn't be more fun with friends, or "it's actually good at what it does" when in fact you could play a Two Moons desert elf for example that is built for city play due to how closely they are tied to the city and be better at everything a city elf can do. The only real argument that works to defend a hopelessly flawed product would be "I think it's fun" but honestly there really is no accounting for taste.

You are trying to shift this into a matter of fun. Notice how I never discuss how fun they are to play until this post where I will grant you that you can feel anything you want is fun. You just have to realize that argument is extremely narrow (as in literally only your perspective). When I say they are a slog I was stating this as a lynchpin to all the things I mentioned immediately after that of which you don't seem too concerned with. But it is noted you had fun playing an elf once.

[Brokkr]

Please tone it down.  I don't want to lock this thread, but I will if things continue in this direction.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, but it would be good to keep in mind an opinion is not inherently more valuable than any other player's, simply because it is yours. An opinion also isn't an argument supported by points for why something should change. It is also not the determinant for right, wrong, or how things "should" be.  Or even what makes sense vs what doesn't make sense.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Okay. I'll back off. I just see a huge problem with part of the game and I'd like us all on the same page of addressing it. Failing that I'd like us all on the same page that this thing is poorly balanced, which it sounds like staff is atleast aware of and has no interest in remedying.

I'm just wasting my breath. We're about 0/3 on all the big issues I see in the game. Maybe it would help if staff had some transparency as to the larger goals you're working on currently? With huge glaring holes in Tuluk, magick, and elves as well as no obvious outpouring of enthusiasm into plots it appears to me like staff is doing nothing at this time. Could you possibly create a thread that discusses future goals and plans so if doesn't appear that way?

[Khorm]

i don't know that we're all going to end up on the same page about anything. the idea that we might end up there feels a little contentious; i don't agree with your representation of these things as huge glaring holes.

I think if i were on staff i'd be hesitant to open a dialogue about anything. the amount of negative attention directed toward things is pretty oppressive.

[gotdamnmiracle]

How do you provide years old criticisms that don't seem negative? I liked the cart code but we already have a thread to give positive feedback in the Release note discussion thread. If they had issues with the continuous threads and negativity then maybe there is a place to meet halfway. To my knowledge nothing like that has been explored or brought up.

[Riev]

I would like to note that my anecdote about playing a city-elf in Luir's was not in response to any one single person. It was to show that a city-elf, outside of a city, is possible and can be fun or interesting. Many people were splitting the topic into that avenue, being less about the code of the elves and more how stupid it is that they are city-locked.

I'm sorry you thought I was responding only to you.

[rinthrat]

I love seeing the No Mans Sky argument in real life where people try frantically to defend something flawed. Here we can see arguments like "it's actually fun with friends", as if a blank white room wouldn't be more fun with friends, or "it's actually good at what it does" when in fact you could play a Two Moons desert elf for example that is built for city play due to how closely they are tied to the city and be better at everything a city elf can do. The only real argument that works to defend a hopelessly flawed product would be "I think it's fun" but honestly there really is no accounting for taste.

How exactly is a delf going to be better at everything in the city than a celf miscreant? They don't even speak sirihish by default.

[gotdamnmiracle]

The above is not always true.

Also, I would be totally willing to say city elves are great in their environment if the rinth had more life to it and there were elf specific tribes in Allanak. Because these don't exist the negatives of the city elf stand out more. There are also no other playable races with quite the same issue regarding joining clans except perhaps if you played a gemmed character.

[mansa]

The above is not always true.

Also, I would be totally willing to say city elves are great in their environment if the rinth had more life to it and there were elf specific tribes in Allanak. Because these don't exist the negatives of the city elf stand out more. There are also no other playable races with quite the same issue regarding joining clans except perhaps if you played a gemmed character.

I would argue that a gemmed character isn't the character, but a job.


The city elf in Zalanthas has the following definitions:

To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe. You can almost attribute a sort of 'hive mind' to elves, in that most of them consider the welfare of their tribe above their own personal welfare. An elf would tell you that they would give up their own life without hesitation to protect or serve their tribe. Not all of them have that much willpower, but all of them wish they did, and certainly all of them will claim they do.

...

The elven population in cities is in a state of constant flux, as various tribes move in and out, die off, go into hiding, move into other parts of the city, or otherwise simply move. Very few tribes have actually settled absolutely into a given place, and those that have will feel a need to extend their influence as far as possible. For city-dwelling tribes, this redirection of old nomadic instincts can be subtle - domination of the other elven tribes nearby, great wealth, presence in every city; the nature of this will vary from tribe to tribe, but will universally add to the problems they cause for the rest of the occupants of the city.

There is nothing in there about recruiting other elves into your own tribe.  It allows you to be extremely creative with any tribe you want to make as a city elf.

However, I don't think the way the gameworld is currently setup to allow players of elf characters to jump in and start being a good elf, or even an enjoyable playable experience.
The problems lie in the lack of:

• Pre-existing clans that can easily be joined into, rather than always starting something fresh with every character - (The Guild or Merchant Houses fill this role for human/half-elf/dwarf.  Yes, the Byn is one, but that's primarily for combat focused playstyles)
• NPCs that will protect you, like a clan guard - (The Guild or Merchant Houses fill this role...)
• "safe" storage of items, like an apartment, warehouse, or clan hideout - (This exists in the Commoner's quarter of Allanak, but does not exist in the Labyrinth)
• Raw materials "relatively" close by within walking distance that can be used for crafting - (Other races can use mounts to travel further / more safely than city elves.  Yes, elves should set up a barter system with other races.)

If I had a magick wand, I would implement 2 city elf clan templates in the Labyrinth, and 2 city elf clan templates in the commoner's section of Allanak, and I would give the option for city elf characters to automagickally join into the clan, or to make their own tribe of their own.  This should allow players to "jump in with a backstory fulfilled" of new elf characters, and be able to explore more of the elven mindset.

I don't think the lack of raw materials for city elves is a major issue to not playing the race.
I do think the lack of a safe place for storage of items is a major issue why players don't enjoy playing city elves in ArmageddonMUD.

[number13]

I do think the lack of a safe place for storage of items is a major issue why players don't enjoy playing city elves in ArmageddonMUD.

The number of times my c-elves has their personal shit stolen (while they were still alive and active) I can count on one hand -- across multiple characters. For example, my favorite elven PC dumped off a fuck ton of coins, left the game for three months, and the stash was bigger when I came back.

You just have to be a tiny bit clever about how to store your crap, if you're a rinthi elf, and it'll pretty much never disappear. And when it does? Oh well. Steal all back again. It's actually fun content in the rare instances when things go missing.

If anything, GMHs and noble houses should have a little less security.

[Lotion]

When a celf steps outside of a city it's normally due to an important reason and it makes it feel super special, almost like a highlight of your time spent playing the character... that's how it's been for me.

[triste]

When a celf steps outside of a city it's normally due to an important reason and it makes it feel super special, almost like a highlight of your time spent playing the character... that's how it's been for me.

This is proper roleplay for a lot of city-elves. I have also met wannabe desert-elf city-elves who try to even be adopted into desert tribes and these concepts, while challenging, are equally valid and I've kudosed players who do this well.

Whenever newer players get involved in the City-Elf debate, though, I really wish they had had the opportunity to see or roleplay in one of the CE tribes that used to be open. The CE experience now without the presence of these tribes is less than a shadow of what it used to be. I've elaborated a lot on this in the past, and want to say I was very excited when the replies to the Content and Creation thread noted that Staff are considering reopening a CE tribe. I agree that an opened CE tribe is not the silver bullet to fix things for CE players, but I see it more content for CE players as an improvement over absolutely no effing content.

One more gripe I have is the way in which City Elves AND Desert Elves are casually fucked over when it comes to skills in character creation. Half of my elves have `pilot` or `ride` sitting unused in their skill list because they came with another guild/subguild that fit my character. By default, when elves pick a skill they CANNOT use, they don't have any perks like a skill replacement or the like. The minor skill gains such as `steal` do not in a quantitative sense compare to the loss of skills regularly see whenever elves pick an outdoor guild that can "tame mounts" but are never able to, etc. I would love it if subguilds either had elf-specific variants so that they are not so carelessly and thoughtlessly gutted in this way, or an automated way for elves to swap skills like `pilot` in chargen. It would have to be carefully balanced, but like my CE tribe argument, any change is better than the current state of affairs which is "casually shaft elf players by putting dead skills on their character sheets without replacements."

Anyway. I am glad this discussion, though off it got off topic, happened. Strange how that happens literally whenever elves come up; perhaps because people think the state of neglect needs to be corrected. It's been confirmed this "auto-storing" alleged by OP isn't a real thing, but the way in which elves are casually and carelessly screwed over in this game is real.