Muark!

[Dresan]

Naturally, we do not expect any of you to be fast friends or walk on eggshells with the Muark. By all means, distrust them or persecute them as you would any other ICly for any reason your PC would. MCB away as you ever have, simply without said terminology.

This too would be nice to see with the new Tan Muark, especially considering these characters used to have both IC and OOC support from both players and staff rivaling that of the most popular long lived nobles.

Better get my gwoshi jacket and boots ready.

[Hauwke]

They are tribals people, hate them. Kill them. Be a real Southern hero.

[Bebop]

I personally don't get the return of the Muarki and it's part of what drew me away from the game.  Numbers are increasing and instead of returning groups with unique traits like the Amber Wyverns or Tuluk we're adding to the game yet another human tribe.  Perhaps there'll be some initial great story line of survival and revenge but I fail to see how they'll add something to the game that the Arabeti, or Siek  (who are rarely populated outside of a few PCs here and there) could not.  For that matter the Sun Runners or the Two Moons, the latter of which have gone vastly unpopulated.

They were always a bit of a cheesy clan and they come with a lot of racial stigma like baby stealing, racial slurs and so on.  I don't get the decision to bring back a decimated tribe instead of bringing back the culture of an entire other city-state that shut down.  It's part of the reason I decided to back away.  I realize more and more I don't understand or identify with the decisions being made for the game.  Which is fine.  I'm a former player now.  But it might be worth noting that things like this feel jarring to me.

The people that stay are of course going to keep trying to stay in good standing, and go with the flow while those of us who don't feel we have a place here have a dissipating presence.  Just my two cents.

[Tenacious]

I personally don't get the return of the Muarki and it's part of what drew me away from the game.  Numbers are increasing and instead of returning groups with unique traits like the Amber Wyverns or Tuluk we're adding to the game yet another human tribe.  Perhaps there'll be some initial great story line of survival and revenge but I fail to see how they'll add something to the game that the Arabeti, or Siek  (who are rarely populated outside of a few PCs here and there) could not.  For that matter the Sun Runners or the Two Moons, the latter of which have gone vastly unpopulated.

They were always a bit of a cheesy clan and they come with a lot of racial stigma like baby stealing, racial slurs and so on.  I don't get the decision to bring back a decimated tribe instead of bringing back the culture of an entire other city-state that shut down.  It's part of the reason I decided to back away.  I realize more and more I don't understand or identify with the decisions being made for the game.  Which is fine.  I'm a former player now.  But it might be worth noting that things like this feel jarring to me.

The people that stay are of course going to keep trying to stay in good standing, and go with the flow while those of us who don't feel we have a place here have a dissipating presence.  Just my two cents.

Each to their own, I suppose, though I do disagree.

Having things like the Amber Wyverns IG because it has 'unique traits' is probably more detrimental then the Muarki being brought in. They are such a niche role that brings very little to the game - that's unless you're a Borsail noble. Lets say the Wyverns are brought back in... a number of players swamp to play them. Heck, I know I would because it sounds cool. They start doing their slave hunting thing... well... slaves aren't a playable role so you'd either be force storing PCs that you capture, or you'd be sucking staff resources to facilitate slaving plots which would have to be happening constantly for the role to actually BE a worthwhile role. If this doesn't happen, then you have the wyverns turning into mercs for hire, riding out with the Byn and the AoD on constant patrols that make very little sense for what they are, while the two or three Borsail nobles get the RP tools that the rest of the playerbase has very little to do with.

From what I've seen IG recently, there are a fair few tribals and Delves running around right now - I don't know whether that's due to covid or not but it's pretty awesome to see. They bring more life to the game and to the North. I don't know if you saw the staff announcement post by Shabago but it looks like they have removed most of the racial slurs that you are talking about from the Muarki RP. It's a harsh world - the short people in Arm are called dwarves. Does that mean they should be removed because calling someone a dwarf in RL is hardly a correct term - I know for sure that if I heard that in RL I'd be pretty disappointed/repulsed. IG though I don't bat an eye because it's a harsh world in which they are considered another race because they are short and hairless.

Anyway... this probably doesn't really belong in this thread, so I'll end it here. My point is that the Muarki hold more of a purpose in the PC side of the game world then a 'niche' clan like the Wyverns, and I'm personally happy to see it brought in.

[triste]

I admit when I saw the announcement my reaction was like Bebop's. People had _just_ been talking about how neat it would be to reopen Tuluk, and indeed people have talked about opening many other clans (even random and comparable clans like the Jul Tavan) before ever mentioning the Tan Muark. So it was indeed surprising to see the Tan Muark, of all clans, reopened.

That said as soon as I read the role I got excited. It is timely insofar as Luir's is very active RN as Tenacious noted, and I agree adding more content to an area players already gravitate towards is nice and likely to move plots for more players. Also, if anything, the Tan Muark is more unique than any other clan that we could have opened, given the wagon focus, which is also timely given the interest in piloting the advent of carts has sparked up.

I really would like to see Tuluk open as well, not necessarily because I want to play there, but more it's useful to have a "large power" that is not Allanak as a plot device. Currently that focus of power is in Luir's, and we've seen more roles open there. Last year, I feel that oppositional power was more in Red Storm, and likewise we saw at least five roles open up for Red Storm last year. As much as I would like that oppositional power to be Tuluk, we'd need to do it at a time when it would be easier to close possibly abandoned clans elsewhere so that we could offer more support to Tuluk. And I don't see that happening within the next 6 months at least. So as much as I'd love to see Tuluk open, we have too many players currently invested elsewhere and I don't think now would have been a good or possible time to reopen Tuluk.

That said -- I hope staff keep the very persistent desire to have Tuluk reopened in mind.

Lastly, if I can whine and clap for my dog in the fight, Staff, if you start reopening clans elsewhere please let it be the 'Rinth and please let one of the clans be a C-Elf clan, I have wanted to play a good city elf for years with an actual in-game tribe PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.

[Riev]

Unless Cat is coming back to oversee the Muarkis, I dunno man.

[triste]

Again, I understand people's hesitance. Instead of Riev's Catrambo thought here, my thought was "I don't know about the Tan Muark coming back unless ShaLeah is able to play one again." But of course some people reading this will laugh their ass off at this because... opinions.

My feelings on the Tan Muark are mixed as well but I am [1] Always a fan of more roles opening [2] Always a fan of unique roles opening (at this point anything that is not a Templar or GMH role is unique) [3] will always have faith in our talented players to re-invent and develop culture in accordance with the docs and settings such that we can recover from cultural bloopers in the past.

[Brokkr]

Split this topic off the Release Notes discussion.

The considerations around any re-opening of Tuluk are quit different than those around opening the Muark.  It is not the case that if we didn't open Muark maybe we could have opened Tuluk.  Tuluk is its own sort of unique decision point, both because of the size (5 vs ?), the continuing support (a staffing team vs one more clan for an existing staffing team) and the amount of work to re-open (6-12 months minimum probably).

[Dresan]

Re-opening Tuluk is its own separate discussion( but to be clear I do not feel tuluk should be re-opened)

That said, i too cringed slightly when I saw Tan Murak. My concern with Tan Murak was how they used to be treated before not like tribals but more akin to tribal nobility. In fact one of them became a Hlum noble in Tuluk i think.

The focus lately has been on expanding the noble/templar cast and rich cast, and while I understand that there are people who are enjoying playing these type of roles, it is at the cost of the sidelining unwashed masses which should be the majority.

Right now with 63 people playing in a more condense area than ever before and yet if you play a hunter or grebber in the south, the game seems empty. If this were Tuluk, a opening for a noble would make me smile, that is someone i would probably have the pleasure of interacting with even as a grebber. In allanak unless I decide to join the rich caste, these character are completely removed from the world i play in, with their parties and their politics have almost no visible effect on my character's life.

I just hope that Tan Muark remain defeated tribe with actual hate and prejudice this time, and don't just begin to mingle with the rich caste which seemingly has become quite a large population in the game.

At least its a tribe opening up with hopefully some potential to RP with everyone. It would have been a lot worse if its yet another niche group that would only mingle with noble/templar sponsored roles while being able to ignore the unwashed grebbers. 

[number13]

Mildly off-topic, but rather than a massive project to reopen a city-state, I'd suggest a small beachhead of Tuluki presence. Imagine one or two Tuluki templars tasked with patrolling the north, recruiting Legion wardens, and minding the store at Morin's -- maybe with some mind-slave units they can push around the roads to express their power.  There could even be some bardic circle representation at Morin's, if people are in to that kind of thing.

For extra credit, there could even be some crime flag situation in the Tuluki sphere of play. Like, cast a spell in Tuluki lands, or enter while under the effect of an enchantment, and you are wanted. Plus, Sun King's Legion would have some coded power, instead of just relying on PC skillsets.

Wardens of da North actually sounds like a fun role. It would give the Byn/the GMHs/tribals an additional sphere to (occasionally) operate in, and Tuluki/Allanaki spies could be a thing again, without having to open up an entire city-state or the associated noble houses or the associated GMH/Byn compounds.

Pick out a couple templar players with big personalities with a lot of time on their hands, and it could be pretty interesting.

Then, if there's a large player draw to the north, and Nak's a ghost town, maybe things could be flipped around a little? Close off Nak or Red Storm, start up the project open up Tuluk.

[molecricket]

That's definitely something I would like to see played with, number. A good compromise, it doesn't involve too much investment (RE: rebuilding the Tuluki rooms and staffing an entire sphere of the game) and if it goes well and catches enough sustained interest, it could be expanded further.

Big fat NO to closing off something else in exchange for Tuluk, though, especially Allanak.

[number13]

Big fat NO to closing off something else in exchange for Tuluk, though, especially Allanak.

Honestly, I'm thinking more of Red Storm shuttering as a playable area, and closing off some tribal roles, to account for Tuluk reopening. But the crux of the idea to count heads -- where is player interest? Where it is weakest, that section of the game should be shuttered, to focus staff/player attention.

[BadSkeelz]

The Muark PCs are going to get PK'd within two weeks of play anyway, I'm not sure what people are so worried about.

[ScramblesForPurchase]

The Muark PCs are going to get PK'd within two weeks of play anyway, I'm not sure what people are so worried about.

Challenge: Accepted.

In all seriousness though, I think it's nice to see more tribal roles available up in the northern/luirs/tribal spheres. I'm not holding any expectations as to what goes on here, but what I hope happens is the Muarki grow back into the game out of player initiative and agency, changing and adapting since they did get wrecked a while back. Plus! I hope we see all sorts of items that haven't been seen in ages returning, new tribal plots, territory grabs and stuff.

TLDR I am all for things opening as opposed to closing and at least giving players a chance to try to make it work.

[Malken]

The Muarki docs vs what the players will do with their Muarki characters:

[triste]

The Muarki docs vs what the players will do with their Muarki characters:

Not what I apped.

[Dresan]

I am just hoping these character focus on Liurs and Redstorm above anything else, bringing more life and fun to the hunters and grebbers of the south, instead of being the political machines that they used to be.

This tribe is clearly ambitious and seems to miss their past glory, but the days of rubbing elbows with nobles is over. The situation in Luirs being what it is over the last couple years perhaps there are opportunities in Redstorm they might take advantage of.

We'll see, I am optimistic 

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder how much Borsail would pay for a breeding pair.

[mansa]

I'm excited.  Tan Muark has some crazy history in Zalanthas, and I love the whole , 'we lost so much, how can we rebuild?' storylines.

[Bebop]

I'm excited.  Tan Muark has some crazy history in Zalanthas, and I love the whole , 'we lost so much, how can we rebuild?' storylines.

How is that going to benefit the game?  Another clan trying to accrue resources.  How is that any different than any other tribe trying to do the same thing and survive in a harsh desert world?

These kinds of things are exactly what I'm talking about in regards to playability.  Great.  Another niche, amorous faction trying to get resources.  We were destroyed and now we rebuild.  Okay?  Same for a lot of the human tribes that were effected.  Same as Borsail.  We've seen the reality of what this brings to the game.  Not a whole lot.

[Bebop]

I'd also genuinely like to know the logic behind  opening a new tribe without closing others which are vastly unpopulated including the brand new Two Moons.  It's like we aren't even building up the tribes already IG.

I'm sick of hearing about how the player base is stretched so thin and then seeing a new delf tribe emerge and now another tribe of humans reopened both of which will likely continue to have marginal interaction with the only city state open.  Likewise, seemingly little reason created within their tribe to interact with said city state or the city state with them.

For what its worth I actually like Two Moons because they were built with some natural things to prove, as traders.  Etc.  There were reasons built in for them to interact.  I'm sure some of the gypsies will be fine.

But I don't get the logic of the player base is so thin.  Let's thin it out some more by opening another faction with the same characteristics of other tribes already open.  Oh and let's give them a wagon... a very expensive investment... straight away.

_______________

Edited to add:

Going back to my thoughts on playability as well PLOT should drive playability and bridge gameplay.

Where is the IG plot developing this?  No one has interactd with the Muarki and one day they're just going to roll up to Luir's with with a wagon?  Everyone IG has been roleplaying that they were decimated.  That some random whore or tribal you see in Luir's could be partially Muarki for all you know, or maybe that sly trader is lying about 1/10th Muarki.

But now?  With no plot what-so-ever.  Here they come with a wagon?  I'm confused about this decision for so many reasons and as to the playability of this.  How it benefits the game and so forth.

This reminds me of an anime where no one is ever freaking dead. It would be one thing if there was a plot gradually bringing them back and having them put together some shambly wagon or something but this feels really jarring to me on an OOC and IC level.

_______________

Armageddon has also been constantly criticized as being a bit tone deaf in regards to gender, sexuality and race and the decision was made to bring back a clan charged to the gills with racial slurs and was notorious for being an erotic role play hub.  For all of the talk of shunning Tuluk for not being "thematic" so that Allanak can reign supreme, just to be clear... in that culture the decision was made to bring back a clan constantly criticized for it's frippery, favoritism and cheese.

I'm at a loss.

In 2009 there was a huge thread about how much people hated the Muark and a quick search on them will see the prolific use of the slur we've all discussed and CONSTANT talks about marriages, bed-mates, orgies and so forth.  I thought this silliness was exactly what the game was moving away from.

There's also this update by Adhira.

The Volcano that once resided outside of Allanak disappeared, leaving in it's place a swath of soil.  Tyn Dashra is no more, the Volcano pushing up from its midst.  Those who were lucky enough to flee the fiery carnage ran in all directions, with a group of Gypsies seen making their way burnt and injured to the Kuraci gates at Luirs.

Not a single mention of a wagon turning up anywhere.

[BadSkeelz]

The Volcano that once resided outside of Allanak disappeared, leaving in it's place a swath of soil.  Tyn Dashra is no more, the Volcano pushing up from its midst.  Those who were lucky enough to flee the fiery carnage ran in all directions, with a group of Gypsies seen making their way burnt and injured to the Kuraci gates at Luirs.

They  could have built a wagon in the last 70 years, you know.

And they also actually did escape in one during the RPT. The real question is where it's been, not where they've gotten one.

[Shabago]

I'd also genuinely like to know the logic behind  opening a new tribe without closing others which are vastly unpopulated including the brand new Two Moons.  It's like we aren't even building up the tribes already IG.

I'm sick of hearing about how the player base is stretched so thin and then seeing a new delf tribe emerge and now another tribe of humans reopened both of which will likely continue to have marginal interaction with the only city state open.  Likewise, seemingly little reason created within their tribe to interact with said city state or the city state with them.

For what its worth I actually like Two Moons because they were built with some natural things to prove, as traders.  Etc.  There were reasons built in for them to interact.  I'm sure some of the gypsies will be fine.

But I don't get the logic of the player base is so thin.  Let's thin it out some more by opening another faction with the same characteristics of other tribes already open.  Oh and let's give them a wagon... a very expensive investment... straight away.

Players are going to play, where players want to play. Take a snapshot of anywhere in the game at any one point and guess what you'll see? - Some in 'Nak, some in the Pah, some in compounds, some in Luirs, some in the Grasslands, some in Morins, some in Red Storm, some in the Salt Flats.

I suppose we could close RS, Luirs, Morins, all the tribes and shove everyone into Allanak? Outcome - same amount of players in Allanak, when those players who don't want to play in Allanak leave the game or the game becomes utterly stagnant since everyone comes from the same background/same area/same approach to interaction.

Have you seen the Muark wagon btw? Or the docs on said wagon? No - you haven't.

Where is the IG plot developing this?  No one has interactd with the Muarki and one day they're just going to roll up to Luir's with with a wagon?  Everyone IG has been roleplaying that they were decimated.  That some random whore or tribal you see in Luir's could be partially Muarki for all you know, or maybe that sly trader is lying about 1/10th Muarki.

But now?  With no plot what-so-ever.  Here they come with a wagon?  I'm confused about this decision for so many reasons and as to the playability of this.  How it benefits the game and so forth.

This reminds me of an anime where no one is ever freaking dead. It would be one thing if there was a plot gradually bringing them back and having them put together some shambly wagon or something but this feels really jarring to me on an OOC and IC level.

Your own quote further below from Adhira, the history page and a number of other sources cited they weren't all dead. What should the plot be? They were beaten into the ground, they barely survived and have clung long enough now that they can start trying to recover - through player agency rather than staff fiat.

Armageddon has also been constantly criticized as being a bit tone deaf in regards to gender, sexuality and race and the decision was made to bring back a clan charged to the gills with racial slurs and was notorious for being an erotic role play hub.  For all of the talk of shunning Tuluk for not being "thematic" so that Allanak can reign supreme, just to be clear... in that culture the decision was made to bring back a clan constantly criticized for it's frippery, favoritism and cheese.

I'm at a loss.

In 2009 there was a huge thread about how much people hated the Muark and a quick search on them will see the prolific use of the slur we've all discussed and CONSTANT talks about marriages, bed-mates, orgies and so forth.  I thought this silliness was exactly what the game was moving away from.

Read the docs? The staff announcements? The help file updates? - Not the same clan, far more thematic, and geared to more player agency.

*While using Bebops post for the quotes, my replies are meant to the whole. Perhaps we could all maybe give something a /chance/ before throwing it in the fire?

[Brokkr]

Not a single mention of a wagon turning up anywhere.

The Tan Muark were playable after the volcano, until, roughly, the end of 2014.  Their IC efforts centered, unsurprisingly, on survival and stuff that was taken into account for this.

Just because you may not have access to the Tan Muark documents/GDB/Request Tool requests of that time or knowledge of the IC events doesn't invalidate them.  Not everything is going to be in the public facing documentation.

[Bebop]

I just want to know what staff's line of thinking is for reopening this clan and what they believe it will add to the game.  I feel like players should have access to that line of thinking.  When OW announced Orisa they explained their logic in releasing her to create anchor tanks.  What is the intent here because I don't see it.  This is what I'm talking about playability.   Just because they're a cool clan doesn't mean they're what the game needs right now.  I want to know what the clan brings to the game and plot at large.  I want to know what the plot is to bring them back.

Its also incredibly condescending to tell me to go read the docs.  I've been playing actively for two years.  I just quoted to you a staff update.  I know what the IG reaction to the Muarki is.  If everything needs super sekret info to make sense to the player base at large maybe there's a problem?  It's like reading a book and being told it doesn't make sense because I haven't read the other book but the other book hasn't been published.  If the published book needs the unpublished book to make sense maybe there's an issue.

I'm also tired of all of the ambiguity.  This is a game.  The answer that people just don't have access behind the veil doesn't work for me anymore to a lot of issues that have cropped in this game and the ooc culture around the game.

It also breaks my trust with staff when they're telling us Tuluk is closed because the PB is too small, spread-out and the city is "unthematic."  Then a clan is rezzed further spreading out the PB with tribes, a clan that was notorious for water slides, cheese and not staying on theme.

If there's a good reason to open them why can't the staff elaborate on that and get us excited?  Tell us what it brings to the game when releasing the announcement?  Why should intent for how something will benefit the game be a secret?

Your own quote further below from Adhira, the history page and a number of other sources cited they weren't all dead. What should the plot be? They were beaten into the ground, they barely survived and have clung long enough now that they can start trying to recover - through player agency rather than staff fiat.

Shabago - As for your question as to what the plot should be I don't KNOW.  I'm not a staff, but there should be A plot since no one has seen a PC Muark or gotten an update on them in RL YEARS.  These are the exact issues I'm talking about.  Bridge the gap with plot.

[Brokkr]

Several themes ran together.  It didn't start so much as "I want to re-open the Tan Muark!" so much as "How can we do this one thing?"  "And this other thing?" "And this thing?" and then looking for the best fit in existing lore, rather than making stuff up out of thin air that has never been reflected in the game.

Am I going to tell you what those things are?  No.  It is quite probable if I did it would influence IG behavior of those dealing with the Muark.  This a reason we don't tell you what the plots are, either.

[Lizzie]

There was a Muark wagon parked in Allanak maybe, two years ago? 2017-2018ish I think. So yeah - the Tan Muark were not decimated, their existence "somewhere in the known" has not been a secret.

They're now being made playable again, with some changes to reflect the IC evolution AND the OOC need to eliminate pejorative terms. I'm not seeing a problem.

[Miggy]

I actually like the idea of a bunch of tribes being open for play, desert elf and human. There could be conflict between tribes that could ally or be enemies. It allows for more diverse player concepts and what I think it will bring to the game is more choices for the players of how they want to flesh out their characters rather than just 'choose city state A or choose city state B' 

[tapas]

Of all the things to whinge about. I'm hoping this will add some flavor to tribal roles since they do feel rather samey.

Maybe next year they'll reopen the conclave.

[number13]

For what it's worth, I share Bebop's sentiments and impressions of the old tribe. I thought they were scattered/destroyed for OOC reasons, the same as halflings and kanks. The Muark were Mary Sue-ish, discordant with game's setting, edging way over the line between real world and fantasy world racism, and personally I would have kept them swept under the rug.

That said, I could see the Muark being brought back under a new guise with a new purpose, and being really cool. One of the problem is, I can't type out why I think it might be cool, because it's likely a Find out IC situation.

But maybe we, as a community in general, should be a little more trusting with each other, and pull way back on the Find out IC paradigm. If my theory (the Muarki are secretly were-kanks from the moon) is correct, then people (even old school Muaki haters like me and Beb) might be excited, instead of wary.

[X-D]

I am just...for the first time ever I think...going to have to totally agree with Bebop, Triste and Number13.

And the Tan Muark will always carry the stigma of the past, both OOC and IC...so I have to wonder, why did you all not simply open a brand new tribe? New name and all just with the docs and backround of what you think the Tan Muark should have been? I mean hell, you could have just made them a black sheep, used to be tan muark tribe that split off sometime not long before the rest got wiped out because the rest were not holding with the "true" Muarki tradition...just about anything.

[Bebop]

To clarify I'm not saying the Muarki are going to just completely suck and the players that play them will suck and the staff just suck.

What I am saying is they were problematic on IC and OOC levels and I don't understand the logic behind bringing them back.  It doesn't fit any of the stances staff have taken as far as not spreading out the game world and getting rid of non-thematic cheese.  And this constant answer of ... we can't tell you, it's for reasons frustrates me.

I also feel like were I playing I would be cringing when time came to interact with these guys because there's been no IC or OOC updates in game.  Not in the two years since I've been back. Maybe longer.  To see them suddenly trucking around would give me whiplash as everyone fumbles to be like oooh here's this clan that was starkly put in for OOC reasons that we don't know about.

There's just a lot of things wrong with this announcement.  I don't get it on many levels and I find it frustrating as a player, or someone who was a player up to the point of this announcement.

I'm simply of the opinion the game absolutely doesn't need this, I don't see it benefiting the game at large in any major way if at all, I see it being another niche faction.  I'm surprised staff think this is something worth putting a bunch of their time into given their stances so far.  I clearly don't get the direction the game is going.  Maybe it will be totally amazing, who knows. 

At present?  I don't see how this is going to benefit the game, and it seems to in fact fact further spread out the player base by dredging up yet another tribe while many of the other tribes are dispersed, lack player interaction and go unpopulated --- yet remain open.

I think these are valid concerns and the answer seems to be like, well there's some cool reasons probably but we can't tell you guys.  That answer is fast becoming a stale blanket statement used to not justify any decisions made.

These are the exact issues I was bringing up in my gameplay vs playability thread.

Where is the plot to bridge this into something playable?  Where is the communication?  Where is taking into account the experience of PC after PC for RL and IG years?  If we're gonna do this can we get a plot leading up to it?  Can PCs be beholden to the knowledge of where a wagon that takes considerable coin and resources produce came from or hints of it getting built?  Can we get some kind of OOC hype from the staff about how this is going to benefit the game world and not just take away the staff's time focusing on another tribal niche group that probably will rarely interact with the only city-state IG?

[triste]

Alright y'all

reboots usually suck, maybe this one is going to be good

The role call is for five fracking openings. In probabilistic terms, a roleplayer you have interacted with before, like, and trust will likely be involved.

Also if I hear about waterslides one more time, I am going to lose it. As a player who returned after a multi-year hiatus and heard about "waterslides" I immediately knew I didn't want to know whatever the fuck this was about. Apparently it's some euphemism for the favoritism the Tan Muark used to have? Guess what, I don't care.

Let's see how this rolecall goes, I am glad we've cleaned up some bad legacy in the process here for the sake of our players who do have Romani heritage. Let's let some players interested in this theme also have fun in the process.

[BadSkeelz]

Only waterslides are gonna be  them noble ladies when my Muarki Mark saunters up.

[triste]

You're killing me, Smalls Skeelz.

[triste]

I would have kept them swept under the rug.

I also agree with this, in part. I actually never heard the term "gypsy" in game in the last year or so I've played because I think we already realized it was, ehhhhh...

[ChuciPeppers]

I just hope that their private bendune lexicon will not be lifted straight from the extremely cringetastic World of Darkness Gypsies book as it was before.

I had played a character in the clan back in like 2010, and then around 2015 or so found out that the lexicon on their clan page was lifted almost directly from the WoD book after googling one or two of the words from the page, and then as I had a tribal character at the time who was implied heavily was distantly tied to them (grandchild of one I think?) I started peppering their language with bits and pieces of the lexicon and got chewed out for using them without having access to the clan documentation but the bitch of it is that about 90% or more of the clan specific bendune words came literally directly out of a table of words from another game's book, one easily findable anywhere online. It was a real pisser and I'd hate to see that happen again.

Otherwise? The Phral were one of this gaje's favorite clans.

[number13]

World of Darkness Gypsies book

Oh god. It all makes sense now. The Tan Muarki were WoD gypsies.

I've changed my vote. Bury it deep, cover with concrete, and pray future generations never break the seal.

[Caverin]

I've removed a post from here - so far the rest of the thread has been alright. Can we please be careful to post and share our opinions without attacking other players/being unnecessarily antagonistic towards them and their own opinions.

Thank you.

[ScramblesForPurchase]

Alright y'all

reboots usually suck, maybe this one is going to be good

The role call is for five fracking openings. In probabilistic terms, a roleplayer you have interacted with before, like, and trust will likely be involved.

Also if I hear about waterslides one more time, I am going to lose it. As a player who returned after a multi-year hiatus and heard about "waterslides" I immediately knew I didn't want to know whatever the fuck this was about. Apparently it's some euphemism for the favoritism the Tan Muark used to have? Guess what, I don't care.

Let's see how this rolecall goes, I am glad we've cleaned up some bad legacy in the process here for the sake of our players who do have Romani heritage. Let's let some players interested in this theme also have fun in the process.

All of that. I feel like we're shooting a bunch of players in the face before they even start. I don't usually get all vocal about stuff but good lord people. This thread at certain points feels like we're roundabout labelling a handful of players who haven't even been picked yet, a bunch of "waterslide trash"

Lets not do that and like, have a bit of faith people will take this and make it fun, and do fun stuff with it, maybe? Or something?

That is all.

[Lizzie]

1) they don't have the old stigma attached to any of the players who started playing after they were skuttled. Which is to say - MOST of the current playerbase.
2. the "lexicon" is comprised mostly of an actual language. Or rather, an actual system of languages: the Romani. It's not just one language. There are several dialects that have their own similar lexicon to each other. The word "vardo" really does mean cart, though the more common Romani languages use "verdo." Sort of the difference between the proper "all of you" vs. the southern "all y'all" vs. the Brooklyn "youz." It's all the same thing and it's all English.

There are a very few actual veteran players left who remember the stigma and WHY there was a stigma. I suggest to you veterans, that you stop attaching that stigma to the new incarnation of a tribe that MOST of your fellow players have never encountered. When you keep griping about the stigma, you give that stigma power. Stop it with the waterslides and baby-stealing and what not, and let the new players turn the Tan Muark into something that makes sense for it to be, after 70 years have passed in-game.

[Hauwke]

If they ever get an actual waterslide I will start a protest.

[Dresan]

If they ever get an actual waterslide I will start a protest.

You know I was never sure about the water slides, but they had a large pool of water in there that was coming in from somewhere. My ranger sneaked in there by climbing through the mountains on the south east side. I had no ideas i was even in Muarki lands until I saw that. My character drank from it....and then pissed in it. He got out of there before staff noticed. In my report, staff asked that if i ever wanted to sneak in there again that i let them know so they could ensure i have a more authentic experience.

That was well over 10 years ago now...my god time has flown.

As someone who hated the entire IC concept of 'Tan Muark' and saw staff animate whole kuraci units to help support these players to strip down a newbie of their gwoshi items, I think concerns are clearly warranted but I am optimistic.

I am really hoping to see a grittier tribe that is still struggling to rebuild while facing hate and prejudice that other tribes don't face to such an extent. Their old "friends" the kuraci aren't the sole owners of the outpost anymore. Not sure how much kurac is willing to stick their neck out for a tribe that can no longer provide strong support. Allanak who are partly responsible for the destruction of their lands should probably be a death trap for them. Regardless of whatever justification can be brought up, I would be disappointed seeing then rolling into Allanak when other areas outside allanak need love.

There is potential here, and I am eager to see what comes out of it.   

[Bebop]

Even if it's a grittier tribe what will another tribe add to the game that aaaaallll of the other niche iso tribes aren't providing?

[triste]

Even if it's a grittier tribe what will another tribe add to the game that aaaaallll of the other niche iso tribes aren't providing?

A cool wagon. I for one am stoked to play Zalanthan trailer trash [not a racial statement, anyone can be trailer trash!], if not via this rolecall then later on.

Really I do get your point, but I don't think this is the most momentous, game changing decision staff has ever made. When the Soh closed, I was bummed I never got to play one, but I understand it may reopen later. It is nice to periodically reopen closed roles so that people who want to play them can have the chance.

I do also hope Staff take your feedback when they consider what to open next as well!

[number13]

Even if it's a grittier tribe what will another tribe add to the game that aaaaallll of the other niche iso tribes aren't providing?

Let's say they've been kicked out of Luirs. The Kuraci have their own problems, and 70 years later, little use for the scattered remains of the Tan Muarki.

The Muarki would be a bitterly hated tribe with no lands, no friends, and lots of enemies trying to keep their people together and find someway to prosper, or at least survive. (and frankly, they probably have X, Y, and Z type characters in their tribe as well, making them even more pariah in civilized lands.) Where do they go? Who can they possibly align themselves with? Tuluk would turn them into mind-slaves; Allanak would shackle them and throw them into the Arena for sport. D-elves won't want the competition on their lands, nor other tribal humans. Someone can probably think up a good reason why the Sand Lord wouldn't want them around, too.

They would have to interact mostly with more rebellious elements of the world -- rogue ginkers, ashlayers, raiders, the Guild. But becoming known for those types of alliances would inspire templars to give chase and finally put them in the ground for good. 

If it's like a Battlestar Galatica type thing, where they have to keep moving, and they're constantly hazed and forced to leave anywhere they stop, then it could make for an interesting story, especially if the stakes are real. If the PC leaders fuck up, the tribe is extinguished.

But....there's two problems with this.

First, the Tan Muarki were (unfortunately) based on a real world ethnicity that is historically persecuted. Turning their tribe into a persecuted pariahs facing extinction deepens the parallels.

Second, that play style does not at all resemble what old school Muarki players would expect, which more like preening about in expensive clothes, rubbing shoulders with highborn, and ending the day in massive fuck piles. Anyone theoretically interested in rekindling that type of role would be disappointed. Anyone disinterested in that play style...maybe isn't going to very interested in playing a Muark in the first place?

I know for me,  if the role was Battlestar Galatica in the wastes, I would be interested. I'd at least think about applying. But then you add in the words "Tan Muark" and my interest evaporates.

...

[triste]

First, the Tan Muarki were (unfortunately) based on a real world ethnicity that is historically persecuted. Turing their tribe into a persecuted pariahs facing extinction deepens the parallels.

Staff has made changes to intentionally sever this real world baggage. This should no longer be considered a factor.

If I let the weird racist comments from JRR Tolkien about elves and orcs concern me, I wouldn't as a person who respects differences play any game with Tolkien like elves. But fortunately I -- and many of us -- realize that roleplaying as a genre has evolved past this legacy. Same thing here: this connection to RL cultures can and probably should be considered moot.

[HeeBeeGB]

I mostly see it as an alternative to Arabet and Al'Seik, or a non-affiliated tribal. I don't necessarily buy into the Consolidation is Key argument, and it seems from actions over words, Staff doesn't altogether. There are only so many times you can play in Allanak now without burning out and wanting to play abroad or in a different flavor or scope. That's mostly due to consolidation and leaders living much longer than in the past, IMHO.

It's kind of a catch 22 for a GDB argument -- We ask Staff to come up with new areas/new races/new playable options because the game is stagnant/older/not tweaked with often, and then when they do, we throw it back in their faces. I think anything is worth trying from a creative standpoint, assessing if it is working or not working, and going from there. It is much preferable to not trying something new (or bringing back something old with a new spin or shine to it) and just trucking along with the status quo.

That being said, I'm glad the Romani/Gypsy stuff was looked at under a magnifying glass. Having looked at their lexicon/documentation as well, it was needlessly bulky and difficult to dissect. The language additions were sort of silly when you consider Bendune already translates Sirihish, and it always felt like if you didn't know all the cool kid words, you were an idiot. I hated that.

[Blink]

A lot of stuff that was spot on.

What the heck!  Are you a mind bender IRL or what?  Get out of my head!

Seriously though, I agree with everything HeeBeeGB said and just wanted to add a few random thoughts.  Back when I started playing this game in 2003 I remember playing a Borsail aide when the Muarki wagon came to town.  It was a very exciting time.  The Muarki were known to be dashing, charismatic, exotic and all that kind of stuff and even just getting a chance to go on the wagon was like winning a big lottery prize.  They had the coolest stuff that you just couldn't find anyplace else.  Over the years my enthusiasm may have waned a bit but I remember always having a good time interacting with them just the same. They brought with them much flavour and lots of plots.

I really look forward to seeing this new iteration of them.  I can feel a bit of that excitement I had 17 years ago (OMG has it really been that long?).  I have a lot of faith in staff that they will be bringing something that will fit with Zalanthas as it is right now and not be a throwback to times gone by.  If it doesn't quite work, I am sure they will tweak it till it does or support/assist the first players in the clan in doing so.

[Riev]

The language additions were sort of silly when you consider Bendune already translates Sirihish, and it always felt like if you didn't know all the cool kid words, you were an idiot. I hated that.

Baxt. Oh you don't know baxt? You arent in the cool kids club.

[LindseyBalboa]

HeeBeeGeeB hit it on the head. When I first started not that long ago, vets complained that staff didn't do anything. Now, people complain about staff doing stuff they don't like or agree with, when staff puts in pretty frequent changes, or complain that they wished staff was doing the changes they want.

I understand a few people seem to have bad memories of the Tan Muark... But like, okay? What in the world convinces you that the same things will happen? There are literal posts from staff saying there have been changes, and even the role call insinuates this is a tribe with great troubles to overcome. Give 'em a chance, and play them, or don't. I know a lot of you have played a decade or two here and you care a lot and you're invested, but if you're playing a game and currently enjoying it, maybe just... trust the staff to provide a fun time for the player base.

For juxtaposition, my only memory of the Tan Muark is from being a very fresh player, looking at the help file and thinking "oh cool that looks fun to play." Now I get to see them on grid. I had the same reaction to Dune Stalkers, and maybe I'll see them, too. I had the same reaction to the Soh, but they were shut down for the Two Moon before I got to play one, and I had the same reaction to the Two Moon and tried to get it on them. Now, there's a new tribe going in without something else shutting down. I say that's a total win, and I look forward to more groups opening up, especially without losing any groups!

As an aside, to Bebop: I know I've had a few scenes with you on one character, and I enjoyed them. I liked you as a player! However, I simply don't understand what you're trying to accomplish, accusing staff of not 'using plot' to introduce the Tan Muark - they haven't even hit the grid yet. I don't understand why you're demanding an answer as to why staff chose the Tan Muark - again, that's obviously going to come out as IC information that will be found out by those still playing over the course of the next few months. You just posted that you're leaving the game because it's taking up your time, and then minutes later posting about how you disagree with staff and you don't understand their motives. Without being condescending: Taking a break is okay, we've all done it from various games, but you're not taking a break at this point. You're just kinda shitting on stuff that other players might find interesting and helping to bias players that have no experience with the subject matter.

[Bast]

I would be extremely excited about this role you are potentially going to be shaping the future of this clan. Are they going to stay nomadic? Can they find a new homeland? How to they secure new territory with depleted numbers? Which devil do you have to make a deal with to survive? I think its an epic opportunity to make a very cool impact on the game. If I weren't a year into a PC I love, I would absolutely cut some bitches to get this role. 

[Halcyon]

As an aside, to Bebop: I know I've had a few scenes with you on one character, and I enjoyed them. I liked you as a player! However, I simply don't understand what you're trying to accomplish, accusing staff of not 'using plot' to introduce the Tan Muark - they haven't even hit the grid yet. I don't understand why you're demanding an answer as to why staff chose the Tan Muark - again, that's obviously going to come out as IC information that will be found out by those still playing over the course of the next few months. You just posted that you're leaving the game because it's taking up your time, and then minutes later posting about how you disagree with staff and you don't understand their motives. Without being condescending: Taking a break is okay, we've all done it from various games, but you're not taking a break at this point. You're just kinda shitting on stuff that other players might find interesting and helping to bias players that have no experience with the subject matter.

There is a plot in game involving the Tan Muark.  Find out IC.

[LindseyBalboa]

Even better!

[number13]

Find out IC.

💩

Events in game should be better broadcast out to players in isolated roles, or lapsed players, or players who maybe only log in for a few hours a week. "Find out IC" should be reserved to questions like, "Who is secretly a [scary character class]?" Or, "Who ordered the assassination of [important PC]?"  World events that are generally public knowledge to a large segment of the player base, even stuff like character deaths (or death via promotion) of big deal PCs should be promulgated and explicitly open for discussion.

Seriously, we should trust players not to mix IC and OOC knowledge. We do so routinely, every time a 1-hour old grebber pretends that he doesn't know the spell list for [class X] or pretends that he doesn't know a character that just killed his last PC.

[Lizzie]

Find out IC.

💩

Events in game should be better broadcast out to players in isolated roles, or lapsed players, or players who maybe only log in for a few hours a week. "Find out IC" should be reserved to questions like, "Who is secretly a [scary character class]?" Or, "Who ordered the assassination of [important PC]?"  World events that are generally public knowledge to a large segment of the player base, even stuff like character deaths (or death via promotion) of big deal PCs should be promulgated and explicitly open for discussion.

Seriously, we should trust players not to mix IC and OOC knowledge. We do so routinely, every time a 1-hour old grebber pretends that he doesn't know the spell list for [class X] or pretends that he doesn't know a character that just killed his last PC.

Events go on all the time, and they are not broadcast. Mostly because they're inconsequential in the scheme of things. The Tan Muark was not a dead tribe. They've existed all along. Their homeland was decimated, many (most?) of their members killed, but the bloodlines remained. This was never kept a secret, it was commonly known, at least to anyone who was paying attention at the time.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, one of the Muark wagons had been parked in the Allanak wagonyard as recently as a couple of years ago. They had items for sale, and anyone could have gone into it and purchased from it if it suited them to do so. Furthermore, the Muark shop in Luir's was never removed, it was always there, available to anyone who wanted to play a game or buy an item.

Currently, there is nothing being kept from the playerbase. It's a non-issue. The only thing happening, that IS being "broadcast," is that the tribe is once again available for players to play. You take what you already know: their ancestral home is no longer populated, 70 years of adjustments in their culture and attitude toward the rest of the world to accommodate the loss of their ancestral home, and...soon..you'll be able to CREATE the storyline and plots as soon as PCs roll into the game.

[teacup]

PCs around Luir's have seen Muark NPCs at various RPTs in the last RL year and the Muark have a tent there that sells things and stuff. They've not been dead and gone in the least. They've been closed to play, that is all.

[Gentleboy]

I knew it was the Tan Muark from the get-go and I looked at the post and thought, "but why".

I agree with Bebop. I don't think we need another tribe added to the game currently. Especially one that I think people will have trouble telling apart from the Arabet. I think there's a large enough crowd of people in Luir's. A lot of clan-coded tribals and original tribals already hang around there. Most tribes are in the North already. I am not sure what element this tribe brings to the game, but as someone who has never seen the tribe before in game, I can say right now I am not excited at all. I would have loved something completely off kilter. When Jal opened? Fuck yeah. When the Atrium opened? Fuck yeah. Unexpected and offered new environments and perspective. What new perspective does the tribe offer me? "I'm the last of my tribe?" That old backstory used for most tribals?

I'm just gonna roll with the game and continue doing me, so if you're playing a Muark congrats and know that I am happy for you! I just wish that something else was reopened that would add a future to the game while building off the history instead of bringing something literally back from history.

Also, Nak being the only city in the game, odd that RP traction is being pushed towards Luir's. Open up Tuluk if you want us North so bad!

[Barsook]

I agree on the fact that it's the old "last of my peoples" troupe. I would rather see a new tribe that branched off from an old one in the South. We already have two human tribes and a d-elf tribe up there, but what does the South have? Just a d-elf tribe? If I recall, wasn't the Tan Murak a southern human tribe? If that's the case, I do see why there is a tribe in the south, what I don't see is some sort of balance between the two regions of the Known with the coded tribals.

But I will just roll with it and play the game to escape real life. And to work to together on tell stories and even world building to a degree.

[Pale Horse]

Tan Muark were very much not a southern human tribe.

[Dar]

Just let people play for fuck sakes.



If the roles are going to be uninteresting, people will either die out, store out, or change things to make it interesting.

Personally? I loved playing the Muarki. I was one of the Tan Muarki "after" the destruction of Dashra. Infiltrated the guild, infiltrated Oash, spread rumours of Madreki encroaching on where the TM survivors lingered, just to prevent my kin from settling near Allanak for too long. Done all kinds of stuff to keep the hatred alive.

If I was able to actually reliably play, I would give up both of my neighbour's firstborns to be able to play that role.

[Greve]

I'm not a big fan of tribes. They rarely seem to have any valuable impact on the game, with select exceptions (Blackwing's heyday, Hot_Dancer's SLK, Veddi's Tan Muark), and the game has always had this musical chairs situation with regards to tribes. One is opened, stays afloat for as long as its original batch of app-ins lasts, and then fizzles out. We used to have so many tribes it was silly, and closing most of them was the right move.

Unfortunately this has not seemed to give the existing tribes any real boost. On the contrary, they're even more irrelevant these days than ever before. In a world that can't be changed by players, the tribe clan concept just falls flat. They end up sitting somewhere in a tent wondering what they might do to remain noticeable, and usually the answer is to kill people or trade with people. Neither is particularly novel or exciting.

In my mind, there should have been two grand tribes in the game, one elven and one human. The elven one could be fiercely territorial and preside over the Tablelands while the human one could be nomadic. Then give them enough genuine purpose within the setting to make players care about their existence. Noone who lives outside the Tablelands ever had much reason to care what goes on in there, which is a shame because it's the coolest area in the game. This is where Armageddon has always failed: the lore says that peoples constantly compete and fight for this and that, but the game just doesn't facilitate it.

Each tribe should have some meaningful real estate, like the Blackwing Outpost, which since the closing of that tribe has just been the Red Storm of the Tablelands. And just as even native characters of Red Storm feel like tourists there because the town's institutions aren't represented by players, Tablelands elves have not felt like the Blackwing Outpost was real since its presiding tribe was closed. Something like that should be operated by players.

The human tribe should have a moving camp. There was a tribe that had one but the name escapes me. It should be big enough to represent an entire tribe, not four tents and a firepit like most tribal camps are. Something the size of the Blackwing Outpost that moves around the world at regular intervals. The Tan Muark could be that tribe. They fit the bill pretty well, and it was always weird to me that the "gypsies" had a static home in a luxurious valley.

Maybe have the Muark annex most of the human tribes, and the same with Blackwing for the elves. These were always the two real tribes. Make it a project over the course of the next year to put them back on the map and make civilized society worry about the rise of the tribals. Call it a consequence of the collapse of northern civilization. There'd be room for conflict both within the tribes, and between them and the urban peoples. That sounds a lot more interesting to me than four dudes living in a tent somewhere who occasionally show up in Allanak to sell shit nobody wants. There's a lot of potential for tribes in the game, it just hasn't been utilized in ages.

[Gentleboy]

I'm not a big fan of tribes. They rarely seem to have any valuable impact on the game, with select exceptions (Blackwing's heyday, Hot_Dancer's SLK, Veddi's Tan Muark), and the game has always had this musical chairs situation with regards to tribes. One is opened, stays afloat for as long as its original batch of app-ins lasts, and then fizzles out. We used to have so many tribes it was silly, and closing most of them was the right move.

Unfortunately this has not seemed to give the existing tribes any real boost. On the contrary, they're even more irrelevant these days than ever before. In a world that can't be changed by players, the tribe clan concept just falls flat. They end up sitting somewhere in a tent wondering what they might do to remain noticeable, and usually the answer is to kill people or trade with people. Neither is particularly novel or exciting.

In my mind, there should have been two grand tribes in the game, one elven and one human. The elven one could be fiercely territorial and preside over the Tablelands while the human one could be nomadic. Then give them enough genuine purpose within the setting to make players care about their existence. Noone who lives outside the Tablelands ever had much reason to care what goes on in there, which is a shame because it's the coolest area in the game. This is where Armageddon has always failed: the lore says that peoples constantly compete and fight for this and that, but the game just doesn't facilitate it.

Each tribe should have some meaningful real estate, like the Blackwing Outpost, which since the closing of that tribe has just been the Red Storm of the Tablelands. And just as even native characters of Red Storm feel like tourists there because the town's institutions aren't represented by players, Tablelands elves have not felt like the Blackwing Outpost was real since its presiding tribe was closed. Something like that should be operated by players.

The human tribe should have a moving camp. There was a tribe that had one but the name escapes me. It should be big enough to represent an entire tribe, not four tents and a firepit like most tribal camps are. Something the size of the Blackwing Outpost that moves around the world at regular intervals. The Tan Muark could be that tribe. They fit the bill pretty well, and it was always weird to me that the "gypsies" had a static home in a luxurious valley.

Maybe have the Muark annex most of the human tribes, and the same with Blackwing for the elves. These were always the two real tribes. Make it a project over the course of the next year to put them back on the map and make civilized society worry about the rise of the tribals. Call it a consequence of the collapse of northern civilization. There'd be room for conflict both within the tribes, and between them and the urban peoples. That sounds a lot more interesting to me than four dudes living in a tent somewhere who occasionally show up in Allanak to sell shit nobody wants. There's a lot of potential for tribes in the game, it just hasn't been utilized in ages.

The part about sitting in the tents is so true. Ha.. My tribal experiences in a nutshell.

[triste]

Everytime someone critiques the opening of the Tan Muark, it's productive to mention what might have been a better clan to open.

I like Greve's feedback with the added note that it omits City Elves.

I don't think anyone can refute this: opening a city elf tribe would add more to the game because no City Elf tribe is open. If the main critique of the Tan Muark is that it is redundant, let's look at clan openings which by definition would be 100% non-redundant! I do think that opening Tan Muark is not, in net, bad; however many people are saying the Tan Muark is a bit redundant and they are right to an extent. OP had good ideas of what's less redundant, but I am just going to remind people what we actually in fact need in this game and would have been completely unredundant: a city elf tribe.

* redundant and derivatives therein intentionally used 729865 times because [1] this thread is so long and filled with the same point about the Tan Muark being redundant YES GOOD POINT THIS IS CORRECT [2] please open a C-Elf tribe when and why not.

[Lizzie]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Tan Muark being re-opened for play. If you read the staff posts more carefully, you'll find hints. Here's my summary of the hints:

Something is going on. In order to progress the plot around this something, other things need to happen/exist/provide context.

The Muark tribe has been re-opened to help with this. It may or may not close once this Something is resolved, but it is a necessary thing at the moment.

[triste]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Tan Muark being re-opened for play. If you read the staff posts more carefully, you'll find hints. Here's my summary of the hints:

Something is going on. In order to progress the plot around this something, other things need to happen/exist/provide context.

The Muark tribe has been re-opened to help with this. It may or may not close once this Something is resolved, but it is a necessary thing at the moment.

I am pretty sure every single person criticizing the Tan Muark knows this. They are questioning why these plots have been manufactured around the Tan Muark when alternatives likely could have been had.

Prior to the announcement I saw no rumblings IG indicating a necessary return of the Muark and I think critics are operating with the probably correct assumption that this plot you are alluding to was manufactured for the Muark and those resources could have gone elsewhere; therefore the plots involved are a moot point.

Whatever is special about the Tan Muark to make them "necessary" could have gone into the development of a tribe or clan adding more is the argument. I agree: even a dwarven tribe with wagons could have added more. I agree that relative to other clans the Muark is redundant AF; that said the Muark opening isn't awful perse.

[Shabago]

Imagine, if you will, you really liked a portion of the game world or wanted an addition.

It gets done. Now go back and read this thread and let me know how your excitement and morale would be to put in effort to said role/story would be?

"I don't like it, therefore it's stupid and unnecessary." Isn't really constructive. "There's no point to this." Without having interacted with a single pc of the tribe, having a clue on the docs or - even giving it a chance, further equals not very constructive.

If you want something more 'in-line' with your play style, perhaps consider suggestions on what to open/make/create? Some of you have. Awesome. If you have ideas on how something already in play could improve, suggest it. Some of you have. Also awesome. Writing something off on misinformed/misguided beliefs on what it is, kicking your fellow players for liking something you do not and so on? Not so much.

Perhaps it's time to start a new thread regarding new additions. Be it new clan, new content to existing clan, etc? I'll read it. I can't guarantee everything put forth will come to pass, (world fit, theme fit, power balances) but hearing from you all regarding desired XYZ certainly won't hurt. I'm aware like-threads have been in play before, but as we all know - time changes opinion/want.

Really guys, let's see the creativity put towards a better arm future over/above the bashing seen here (in part).

[number13]

Now go back and read this thread and let me know how your excitement and morale would be to put in effort to said role/story would be?

It's mostly just me and Bebop complaining -- a mostly lapsed player (who was never into tribal play to begin with) and a player who recently said she permaquit. Everyone else seems mostly on board with the idea, and even I'm looking forward to eventually figuring out what's up with the nuMuark.

I do appreciate that y'all is keeping the game going. If my remarks came across as less than constructive, then it's my bad, not yours.

[Narf]

Imagine, if you will, you really liked a portion of the game world or wanted an addition.

It gets done. Now go back and read this thread and let me know how your excitement and morale would be to put in effort to said role/story would be?

"I don't like it, therefore it's stupid and unnecessary." Isn't really constructive. "There's no point to this." Without having interacted with a single pc of the tribe, having a clue on the docs or - even giving it a chance, further equals not very constructive.

Rule 1 for offering unsolicited criticism for someone else's project: Be polite.

In the real world I've had to seek criticism for a variety of projects I've worked on and there is a drastic difference in my productivity and enthusiasm both for addressing that criticism and working on future projects based on how polite the respondent is. And that's for /solicited/ criticism. It's even more important to be polite when the criticism you're offering is not solicited.

You don't even have to be a good or altruistically minded person for this advice to be applicable. People want things done, they're gonna have to show a little empathy for the people that do them.

That's not to say you have to like or support every idea out there. Criticism is important, but it's only useful if you don't completely shut the other person down/out while you're doing it. I feel like this is a ridiculously obvious statement, but I think when people go into "rant mode" it gets thrust by the wayside. The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose. That goes double for unsolicited project feedback posts.

[number13]

The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose.

Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit.

[Barsook]

Tan Muark were very much not a southern human tribe.

I meant one based in the south not how would a southern tribe would act. Then again, that might be a new topic for another day.

[Narf]

The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose.

Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit.

Someone complaining could be much better, if it's done properly. If done improperly it's probably better just to stay quiet.

[triste]

The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose.

Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit.

Someone complaining could be much better, if it's done properly. If done improperly it's probably better just to stay quiet.

"Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit." Definitely agree with this.

Sure, maybe the GDB isn't the best forum for this discussion. Requests on armageddon.org, however, are not the best medium either as it isolates one player's feedback from everyone else's and is more likely to be passed over quietly. Discord is not the best medium either for the same reason as the GDB, except at an increased velocity.

If we don't have the option to give our feedback before a change happens, and are allowed only to give feedback after the fact, it by definition falls into this trope of "Staff went through all this effort to build this, and now you are just criticizing it." Yes, we are only contributing by criticizing, because by definition we are only being allowed to give feedback after the fact.

I have _no_ idea how Staff can get our feedback before major decisions like this. It's possible that feedback is already gathered, but if it is, it's not gathered openly and only among a subset of players. If this is the case, every player excluded from giving initial feedback has a right to give their feedback (or "criticism") after the fact.

So yes, by definition our only option is to comment /after/ the fact, and this often leads to derailments and proposals for future changes (what you call a rant seems at least in part appreciated by Shabago as he mentions liking the more proactive feedback). As N13 says here -- it all comes from a good place. And unfortunately non-democratic, behind-closed-doors decision making processes that do not involve public feedback will result in reactionary outcry: that is by definition how this current process works.

[Narf]

Just to be perfectly clear, I said the GDB was a terrible place for project related rants

For polite criticism, you're right, there's not a lot of option currently in place.

[HeeBeeGB]

It's true. Without market research, or market research basically only among Staff, you are basically shooting in the dark when it comes to player reactions and buy in. But, as triste says, for the most part people are offering constructive criticism and critique. I would say most people who play this game are willing to give things a shot or see how they play out as much as Staff is, and if it is a failed experiment, it becomes pretty obvious over time.

[Pale Horse]

Tan Muark were very much not a southern human tribe.

I meant one based in the south not how would a southern tribe would act. Then again, that might be a new topic for another day.

I am unsure of what you meant by southern human tribe, basing my statement on my own preconceived views.

1. By based, did you mean that the focus and interests of the tribe were in the southlands?
2. Did you mean that they had an origin in the south and acted, as you said in your second post, based on how a southern tribe would act?
3. Did you mean that their encampment was in the south? 
4. What do you mean by "south"?  South of Tuluk?  South of Luir's?  South of the Tablelands?  The lands around Allanak?

[Barsook]

Encampment of south of Luir's is what I mean by south, as I see the Outpost being the "middle" of the Known. As for the first two, that I really don't know. It's a shame on that I haven't played a coded tribal yet and don't really know what is out there the Sands. I'm too much of a settlement dweller.

[mansa]

Code Select Expand

c.290 (Year 59 Age 4)
The powerful chieftain Quintus Tektolnes conquers and unites the tribes at Vrun Driath into a small kingdom. The tribes called Doombringer, Tan-Muark, and Shadow are among the conquered.


1092 (Year 14 Age 15)
The Clan Wars begin. Pressed beyond their limits, the Shadow Clan claims right of revenge against the Elves of Mallok for the death of one of their number. The Elves refuse to admit guilt, and war is begun. The Doombringers and the Tan-Muark, through conflicts of their own, also enter into the war, as do the Twin Warlocks.

There's a lot of history to build up on the Tan Muark.  They've been conquered before, established a new homeland, had that homeland destroyed, and now are trying to find their new space in the world.  The whole conflict of old traditions vs new experiences should be a fun challenge.   IMO, similar to the Al Seik story in joining with the Arabet camps.  With the story now in the players hands, it can go any which way.

[Greve]

With the story now in the players hands, it can go any which way.

I suspect some of these concerns stem in part from the fact that when the story is left in the players' hands, it rarely goes anywhere.

[triste]

With the story now in the players hands, it can go any which way.

I suspect some of these concerns stem in part from the fact that when the story is left in the players' hands, it rarely goes anywhere.

This is the sort of non-productive cynicism I think Shabago was alluding to.

The most attended RPT we've had this past year had tremendous player involvement. Players shape plots and stories all the time. I don't know how else to take this comment in a productive direction other than "look at the ample evidence to the contrary."

[Pale Horse]

Encampment of south of Luir's is what I mean by south, as I see the Outpost being the "middle" of the Known. As for the first two, that I really don't know. It's a shame on that I haven't played a coded tribal yet and don't really know what is out there the Sands. I'm too much of a settlement dweller.

Understandable.

To clarify, the lands that the Tan Muark once held were actually north of Luir's Outpost, close enough to be almost on the doorstep.  In terms of pure geography, you could think of them as an Eastern-Tablelands tribe.  Eastern-Tablelands being the landscape on the same latitude as the tablelands in the Pah but on the eastern side of the Great North Road divide.

But as to what someone may have considered the tribe, it really depended on who was doing the considering. 

The Tan Muark would have laughed at being called a such-and-such tribe.

Since their lands were very close to Tuluk but not part of the "northern tribes" that made up their founding forces/numbers, to them the Tan Muark may have rightly been an "associated" northern clan and had all the hangups of those expectations applied to them.

To the tribes of the tableland they may very well have just been Outsiders like anyone else.  They weren't in the canyons, the scrub or other such lands that traditionally were fought over by the tribes that claimed that place.

To everyone else as you went further and further south, they may have been considered a northern tribe for simply not being in the Vrun Driath region.

This also all could have depended on if you(r)/character knew that the Tan Muark even had territory and where not just a wandering tribe based out of wagons.

[Riev]

If we don't have the option to give our feedback before a change happens, and are allowed only to give feedback after the fact, it by definition falls into this trope of "Staff went through all this effort to build this, and now you are just criticizing it." Yes, we are only contributing by criticizing, because by definition we are only being allowed to give feedback after the fact.

By definition, Triste and I get on like oil and water. In this, I think we are in total agreement.

We all cannot have played a Muarki, almost none of us have seen any new documentation you've put up, and you have only just announced the openings. We WANT to be a part of this, but since everything was already decided, we can really only criticize and theorize.

Some people are being poop heads. Please understand we're not all poopheads.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I think one major things that needs to be understood here is that Staff are volunteers.

If a staff member wants to do something there is also a chain of command, it has to go up this and then be decided upon.  Then you have to take into account the time and effort that is put into this.  New Docs are written up (internal and external), new building has to be done, recruiting for said role, setting up said role, and then lastly monitoring and maintaining said role.  There is a lot of work and time that is put into this, and then you have to understand the emotional impact.  What if someone dies right away because of something stupid?  Or maybe someone doesn't follow the docs in the way expected, or maybe they don't understand them?

Then you have to deal with the public outcry for your work that you've done that you're so passionate about working on.  You want it to succeed, you want it to be fun for those players that are playing with it, and you want the players around it to have fun also.  This is a labor of love folks, realize that you words are speaking to a real life person that wants to make the best thing ever so people will enjoy it.

Be gentle, be constructive, and just be polite.  We're all here to have fun, and not everyone is going to agree, we're all very passionate about this game.  Text is a horrible medium of conversation, tone and inflection is lost in it's narrative in most cases. 

Thank you staff for opening up something again and trying to do the work that you do.  It is appreciated, I look forward to the next clan to be reopened or the new things to get coded.

[X-D]

I certainly am not "on board". I make no secret that in the past I hated that clan, I do not think they fit the arm theme at all and it always bugged me that they were called gypsies when they were nothing like any kind of gypsy. Along with certain other things which I will not talk about as I agree with Lizzie on that point.

That being said....I am willing to try and have an open mind on the situation, it looks like staff might have addressed most of the points that made me hate them in the past. If that turns out to be not true...Well...Murder, corruption...oh wait, we only need the first word.