Muark!

[Dresan]

Naturally, we do not expect any of you to be fast friends or walk on eggshells with the Muark. By all means, distrust them or persecute them as you would any other ICly for any reason your PC would. MCB away as you ever have, simply without said terminology.

This too would be nice to see with the new Tan Muark, especially considering these characters used to have both IC and OOC support from both players and staff rivaling that of the most popular long lived nobles.

Better get my gwoshi jacket and boots ready.

[Hauwke]

They are tribals people, hate them. Kill them. Be a real Southern hero.

[Bebop]

I personally don't get the return of the Muarki and it's part of what drew me away from the game.  Numbers are increasing and instead of returning groups with unique traits like the Amber Wyverns or Tuluk we're adding to the game yet another human tribe.  Perhaps there'll be some initial great story line of survival and revenge but I fail to see how they'll add something to the game that the Arabeti, or Siek  (who are rarely populated outside of a few PCs here and there) could not.  For that matter the Sun Runners or the Two Moons, the latter of which have gone vastly unpopulated.

They were always a bit of a cheesy clan and they come with a lot of racial stigma like baby stealing, racial slurs and so on.  I don't get the decision to bring back a decimated tribe instead of bringing back the culture of an entire other city-state that shut down.  It's part of the reason I decided to back away.  I realize more and more I don't understand or identify with the decisions being made for the game.  Which is fine.  I'm a former player now.  But it might be worth noting that things like this feel jarring to me.

The people that stay are of course going to keep trying to stay in good standing, and go with the flow while those of us who don't feel we have a place here have a dissipating presence.  Just my two cents.

[Tenacious]

I personally don't get the return of the Muarki and it's part of what drew me away from the game.  Numbers are increasing and instead of returning groups with unique traits like the Amber Wyverns or Tuluk we're adding to the game yet another human tribe.  Perhaps there'll be some initial great story line of survival and revenge but I fail to see how they'll add something to the game that the Arabeti, or Siek  (who are rarely populated outside of a few PCs here and there) could not.  For that matter the Sun Runners or the Two Moons, the latter of which have gone vastly unpopulated.

They were always a bit of a cheesy clan and they come with a lot of racial stigma like baby stealing, racial slurs and so on.  I don't get the decision to bring back a decimated tribe instead of bringing back the culture of an entire other city-state that shut down.  It's part of the reason I decided to back away.  I realize more and more I don't understand or identify with the decisions being made for the game.  Which is fine.  I'm a former player now.  But it might be worth noting that things like this feel jarring to me.

The people that stay are of course going to keep trying to stay in good standing, and go with the flow while those of us who don't feel we have a place here have a dissipating presence.  Just my two cents.

Each to their own, I suppose, though I do disagree.

Having things like the Amber Wyverns IG because it has 'unique traits' is probably more detrimental then the Muarki being brought in. They are such a niche role that brings very little to the game - that's unless you're a Borsail noble. Lets say the Wyverns are brought back in... a number of players swamp to play them. Heck, I know I would because it sounds cool. They start doing their slave hunting thing... well... slaves aren't a playable role so you'd either be force storing PCs that you capture, or you'd be sucking staff resources to facilitate slaving plots which would have to be happening constantly for the role to actually BE a worthwhile role. If this doesn't happen, then you have the wyverns turning into mercs for hire, riding out with the Byn and the AoD on constant patrols that make very little sense for what they are, while the two or three Borsail nobles get the RP tools that the rest of the playerbase has very little to do with.

From what I've seen IG recently, there are a fair few tribals and Delves running around right now - I don't know whether that's due to covid or not but it's pretty awesome to see. They bring more life to the game and to the North. I don't know if you saw the staff announcement post by Shabago but it looks like they have removed most of the racial slurs that you are talking about from the Muarki RP. It's a harsh world - the short people in Arm are called dwarves. Does that mean they should be removed because calling someone a dwarf in RL is hardly a correct term - I know for sure that if I heard that in RL I'd be pretty disappointed/repulsed. IG though I don't bat an eye because it's a harsh world in which they are considered another race because they are short and hairless.

Anyway... this probably doesn't really belong in this thread, so I'll end it here. My point is that the Muarki hold more of a purpose in the PC side of the game world then a 'niche' clan like the Wyverns, and I'm personally happy to see it brought in.

[triste]

I admit when I saw the announcement my reaction was like Bebop's. People had _just_ been talking about how neat it would be to reopen Tuluk, and indeed people have talked about opening many other clans (even random and comparable clans like the Jul Tavan) before ever mentioning the Tan Muark. So it was indeed surprising to see the Tan Muark, of all clans, reopened.

That said as soon as I read the role I got excited. It is timely insofar as Luir's is very active RN as Tenacious noted, and I agree adding more content to an area players already gravitate towards is nice and likely to move plots for more players. Also, if anything, the Tan Muark is more unique than any other clan that we could have opened, given the wagon focus, which is also timely given the interest in piloting the advent of carts has sparked up.

I really would like to see Tuluk open as well, not necessarily because I want to play there, but more it's useful to have a "large power" that is not Allanak as a plot device. Currently that focus of power is in Luir's, and we've seen more roles open there. Last year, I feel that oppositional power was more in Red Storm, and likewise we saw at least five roles open up for Red Storm last year. As much as I would like that oppositional power to be Tuluk, we'd need to do it at a time when it would be easier to close possibly abandoned clans elsewhere so that we could offer more support to Tuluk. And I don't see that happening within the next 6 months at least. So as much as I'd love to see Tuluk open, we have too many players currently invested elsewhere and I don't think now would have been a good or possible time to reopen Tuluk.

That said -- I hope staff keep the very persistent desire to have Tuluk reopened in mind.

Lastly, if I can whine and clap for my dog in the fight, Staff, if you start reopening clans elsewhere please let it be the 'Rinth and please let one of the clans be a C-Elf clan, I have wanted to play a good city elf for years with an actual in-game tribe PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.

[Riev]

Unless Cat is coming back to oversee the Muarkis, I dunno man.

[triste]

Again, I understand people's hesitance. Instead of Riev's Catrambo thought here, my thought was "I don't know about the Tan Muark coming back unless ShaLeah is able to play one again." But of course some people reading this will laugh their ass off at this because... opinions.

My feelings on the Tan Muark are mixed as well but I am [1] Always a fan of more roles opening [2] Always a fan of unique roles opening (at this point anything that is not a Templar or GMH role is unique) [3] will always have faith in our talented players to re-invent and develop culture in accordance with the docs and settings such that we can recover from cultural bloopers in the past.

[Brokkr]

Split this topic off the Release Notes discussion.

The considerations around any re-opening of Tuluk are quit different than those around opening the Muark.  It is not the case that if we didn't open Muark maybe we could have opened Tuluk.  Tuluk is its own sort of unique decision point, both because of the size (5 vs ?), the continuing support (a staffing team vs one more clan for an existing staffing team) and the amount of work to re-open (6-12 months minimum probably).

[Dresan]

Re-opening Tuluk is its own separate discussion( but to be clear I do not feel tuluk should be re-opened)

That said, i too cringed slightly when I saw Tan Murak. My concern with Tan Murak was how they used to be treated before not like tribals but more akin to tribal nobility. In fact one of them became a Hlum noble in Tuluk i think.

The focus lately has been on expanding the noble/templar cast and rich cast, and while I understand that there are people who are enjoying playing these type of roles, it is at the cost of the sidelining unwashed masses which should be the majority.

Right now with 63 people playing in a more condense area than ever before and yet if you play a hunter or grebber in the south, the game seems empty. If this were Tuluk, a opening for a noble would make me smile, that is someone i would probably have the pleasure of interacting with even as a grebber. In allanak unless I decide to join the rich caste, these character are completely removed from the world i play in, with their parties and their politics have almost no visible effect on my character's life.

I just hope that Tan Muark remain defeated tribe with actual hate and prejudice this time, and don't just begin to mingle with the rich caste which seemingly has become quite a large population in the game.

At least its a tribe opening up with hopefully some potential to RP with everyone. It would have been a lot worse if its yet another niche group that would only mingle with noble/templar sponsored roles while being able to ignore the unwashed grebbers. 

[number13]

Mildly off-topic, but rather than a massive project to reopen a city-state, I'd suggest a small beachhead of Tuluki presence. Imagine one or two Tuluki templars tasked with patrolling the north, recruiting Legion wardens, and minding the store at Morin's -- maybe with some mind-slave units they can push around the roads to express their power.  There could even be some bardic circle representation at Morin's, if people are in to that kind of thing.

For extra credit, there could even be some crime flag situation in the Tuluki sphere of play. Like, cast a spell in Tuluki lands, or enter while under the effect of an enchantment, and you are wanted. Plus, Sun King's Legion would have some coded power, instead of just relying on PC skillsets.

Wardens of da North actually sounds like a fun role. It would give the Byn/the GMHs/tribals an additional sphere to (occasionally) operate in, and Tuluki/Allanaki spies could be a thing again, without having to open up an entire city-state or the associated noble houses or the associated GMH/Byn compounds.

Pick out a couple templar players with big personalities with a lot of time on their hands, and it could be pretty interesting.

Then, if there's a large player draw to the north, and Nak's a ghost town, maybe things could be flipped around a little? Close off Nak or Red Storm, start up the project open up Tuluk.

[molecricket]

That's definitely something I would like to see played with, number. A good compromise, it doesn't involve too much investment (RE: rebuilding the Tuluki rooms and staffing an entire sphere of the game) and if it goes well and catches enough sustained interest, it could be expanded further.

Big fat NO to closing off something else in exchange for Tuluk, though, especially Allanak.

[number13]

Big fat NO to closing off something else in exchange for Tuluk, though, especially Allanak.

Honestly, I'm thinking more of Red Storm shuttering as a playable area, and closing off some tribal roles, to account for Tuluk reopening. But the crux of the idea to count heads -- where is player interest? Where it is weakest, that section of the game should be shuttered, to focus staff/player attention.

[BadSkeelz]

The Muark PCs are going to get PK'd within two weeks of play anyway, I'm not sure what people are so worried about.

[ScramblesForPurchase]

The Muark PCs are going to get PK'd within two weeks of play anyway, I'm not sure what people are so worried about.

Challenge: Accepted.

In all seriousness though, I think it's nice to see more tribal roles available up in the northern/luirs/tribal spheres. I'm not holding any expectations as to what goes on here, but what I hope happens is the Muarki grow back into the game out of player initiative and agency, changing and adapting since they did get wrecked a while back. Plus! I hope we see all sorts of items that haven't been seen in ages returning, new tribal plots, territory grabs and stuff.

TLDR I am all for things opening as opposed to closing and at least giving players a chance to try to make it work.

[Malken]

The Muarki docs vs what the players will do with their Muarki characters:

[triste]

The Muarki docs vs what the players will do with their Muarki characters:

Not what I apped.

[Dresan]

I am just hoping these character focus on Liurs and Redstorm above anything else, bringing more life and fun to the hunters and grebbers of the south, instead of being the political machines that they used to be.

This tribe is clearly ambitious and seems to miss their past glory, but the days of rubbing elbows with nobles is over. The situation in Luirs being what it is over the last couple years perhaps there are opportunities in Redstorm they might take advantage of.

We'll see, I am optimistic 

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder how much Borsail would pay for a breeding pair.

[mansa]

I'm excited.  Tan Muark has some crazy history in Zalanthas, and I love the whole , 'we lost so much, how can we rebuild?' storylines.

[Bebop]

I'm excited.  Tan Muark has some crazy history in Zalanthas, and I love the whole , 'we lost so much, how can we rebuild?' storylines.

How is that going to benefit the game?  Another clan trying to accrue resources.  How is that any different than any other tribe trying to do the same thing and survive in a harsh desert world?

These kinds of things are exactly what I'm talking about in regards to playability.  Great.  Another niche, amorous faction trying to get resources.  We were destroyed and now we rebuild.  Okay?  Same for a lot of the human tribes that were effected.  Same as Borsail.  We've seen the reality of what this brings to the game.  Not a whole lot.

[Bebop]

I'd also genuinely like to know the logic behind  opening a new tribe without closing others which are vastly unpopulated including the brand new Two Moons.  It's like we aren't even building up the tribes already IG.

I'm sick of hearing about how the player base is stretched so thin and then seeing a new delf tribe emerge and now another tribe of humans reopened both of which will likely continue to have marginal interaction with the only city state open.  Likewise, seemingly little reason created within their tribe to interact with said city state or the city state with them.

For what its worth I actually like Two Moons because they were built with some natural things to prove, as traders.  Etc.  There were reasons built in for them to interact.  I'm sure some of the gypsies will be fine.

But I don't get the logic of the player base is so thin.  Let's thin it out some more by opening another faction with the same characteristics of other tribes already open.  Oh and let's give them a wagon... a very expensive investment... straight away.

_______________

Edited to add:

Going back to my thoughts on playability as well PLOT should drive playability and bridge gameplay.

Where is the IG plot developing this?  No one has interactd with the Muarki and one day they're just going to roll up to Luir's with with a wagon?  Everyone IG has been roleplaying that they were decimated.  That some random whore or tribal you see in Luir's could be partially Muarki for all you know, or maybe that sly trader is lying about 1/10th Muarki.

But now?  With no plot what-so-ever.  Here they come with a wagon?  I'm confused about this decision for so many reasons and as to the playability of this.  How it benefits the game and so forth.

This reminds me of an anime where no one is ever freaking dead. It would be one thing if there was a plot gradually bringing them back and having them put together some shambly wagon or something but this feels really jarring to me on an OOC and IC level.

_______________

Armageddon has also been constantly criticized as being a bit tone deaf in regards to gender, sexuality and race and the decision was made to bring back a clan charged to the gills with racial slurs and was notorious for being an erotic role play hub.  For all of the talk of shunning Tuluk for not being "thematic" so that Allanak can reign supreme, just to be clear... in that culture the decision was made to bring back a clan constantly criticized for it's frippery, favoritism and cheese.

I'm at a loss.

In 2009 there was a huge thread about how much people hated the Muark and a quick search on them will see the prolific use of the slur we've all discussed and CONSTANT talks about marriages, bed-mates, orgies and so forth.  I thought this silliness was exactly what the game was moving away from.

There's also this update by Adhira.

The Volcano that once resided outside of Allanak disappeared, leaving in it's place a swath of soil.  Tyn Dashra is no more, the Volcano pushing up from its midst.  Those who were lucky enough to flee the fiery carnage ran in all directions, with a group of Gypsies seen making their way burnt and injured to the Kuraci gates at Luirs.

Not a single mention of a wagon turning up anywhere.

[BadSkeelz]

The Volcano that once resided outside of Allanak disappeared, leaving in it's place a swath of soil.  Tyn Dashra is no more, the Volcano pushing up from its midst.  Those who were lucky enough to flee the fiery carnage ran in all directions, with a group of Gypsies seen making their way burnt and injured to the Kuraci gates at Luirs.

They  could have built a wagon in the last 70 years, you know.

And they also actually did escape in one during the RPT. The real question is where it's been, not where they've gotten one.

[Shabago]

I'd also genuinely like to know the logic behind  opening a new tribe without closing others which are vastly unpopulated including the brand new Two Moons.  It's like we aren't even building up the tribes already IG.

I'm sick of hearing about how the player base is stretched so thin and then seeing a new delf tribe emerge and now another tribe of humans reopened both of which will likely continue to have marginal interaction with the only city state open.  Likewise, seemingly little reason created within their tribe to interact with said city state or the city state with them.

For what its worth I actually like Two Moons because they were built with some natural things to prove, as traders.  Etc.  There were reasons built in for them to interact.  I'm sure some of the gypsies will be fine.

But I don't get the logic of the player base is so thin.  Let's thin it out some more by opening another faction with the same characteristics of other tribes already open.  Oh and let's give them a wagon... a very expensive investment... straight away.

Players are going to play, where players want to play. Take a snapshot of anywhere in the game at any one point and guess what you'll see? - Some in 'Nak, some in the Pah, some in compounds, some in Luirs, some in the Grasslands, some in Morins, some in Red Storm, some in the Salt Flats.

I suppose we could close RS, Luirs, Morins, all the tribes and shove everyone into Allanak? Outcome - same amount of players in Allanak, when those players who don't want to play in Allanak leave the game or the game becomes utterly stagnant since everyone comes from the same background/same area/same approach to interaction.

Have you seen the Muark wagon btw? Or the docs on said wagon? No - you haven't.

Where is the IG plot developing this?  No one has interactd with the Muarki and one day they're just going to roll up to Luir's with with a wagon?  Everyone IG has been roleplaying that they were decimated.  That some random whore or tribal you see in Luir's could be partially Muarki for all you know, or maybe that sly trader is lying about 1/10th Muarki.

But now?  With no plot what-so-ever.  Here they come with a wagon?  I'm confused about this decision for so many reasons and as to the playability of this.  How it benefits the game and so forth.

This reminds me of an anime where no one is ever freaking dead. It would be one thing if there was a plot gradually bringing them back and having them put together some shambly wagon or something but this feels really jarring to me on an OOC and IC level.

Your own quote further below from Adhira, the history page and a number of other sources cited they weren't all dead. What should the plot be? They were beaten into the ground, they barely survived and have clung long enough now that they can start trying to recover - through player agency rather than staff fiat.

Armageddon has also been constantly criticized as being a bit tone deaf in regards to gender, sexuality and race and the decision was made to bring back a clan charged to the gills with racial slurs and was notorious for being an erotic role play hub.  For all of the talk of shunning Tuluk for not being "thematic" so that Allanak can reign supreme, just to be clear... in that culture the decision was made to bring back a clan constantly criticized for it's frippery, favoritism and cheese.

I'm at a loss.

In 2009 there was a huge thread about how much people hated the Muark and a quick search on them will see the prolific use of the slur we've all discussed and CONSTANT talks about marriages, bed-mates, orgies and so forth.  I thought this silliness was exactly what the game was moving away from.

Read the docs? The staff announcements? The help file updates? - Not the same clan, far more thematic, and geared to more player agency.

*While using Bebops post for the quotes, my replies are meant to the whole. Perhaps we could all maybe give something a /chance/ before throwing it in the fire?

[Brokkr]

Not a single mention of a wagon turning up anywhere.

The Tan Muark were playable after the volcano, until, roughly, the end of 2014.  Their IC efforts centered, unsurprisingly, on survival and stuff that was taken into account for this.

Just because you may not have access to the Tan Muark documents/GDB/Request Tool requests of that time or knowledge of the IC events doesn't invalidate them.  Not everything is going to be in the public facing documentation.

[Bebop]

I just want to know what staff's line of thinking is for reopening this clan and what they believe it will add to the game.  I feel like players should have access to that line of thinking.  When OW announced Orisa they explained their logic in releasing her to create anchor tanks.  What is the intent here because I don't see it.  This is what I'm talking about playability.   Just because they're a cool clan doesn't mean they're what the game needs right now.  I want to know what the clan brings to the game and plot at large.  I want to know what the plot is to bring them back.

Its also incredibly condescending to tell me to go read the docs.  I've been playing actively for two years.  I just quoted to you a staff update.  I know what the IG reaction to the Muarki is.  If everything needs super sekret info to make sense to the player base at large maybe there's a problem?  It's like reading a book and being told it doesn't make sense because I haven't read the other book but the other book hasn't been published.  If the published book needs the unpublished book to make sense maybe there's an issue.

I'm also tired of all of the ambiguity.  This is a game.  The answer that people just don't have access behind the veil doesn't work for me anymore to a lot of issues that have cropped in this game and the ooc culture around the game.

It also breaks my trust with staff when they're telling us Tuluk is closed because the PB is too small, spread-out and the city is "unthematic."  Then a clan is rezzed further spreading out the PB with tribes, a clan that was notorious for water slides, cheese and not staying on theme.

If there's a good reason to open them why can't the staff elaborate on that and get us excited?  Tell us what it brings to the game when releasing the announcement?  Why should intent for how something will benefit the game be a secret?

Your own quote further below from Adhira, the history page and a number of other sources cited they weren't all dead. What should the plot be? They were beaten into the ground, they barely survived and have clung long enough now that they can start trying to recover - through player agency rather than staff fiat.

Shabago - As for your question as to what the plot should be I don't KNOW.  I'm not a staff, but there should be A plot since no one has seen a PC Muark or gotten an update on them in RL YEARS.  These are the exact issues I'm talking about.  Bridge the gap with plot.