Muark!

[Brokkr]

Several themes ran together.  It didn't start so much as "I want to re-open the Tan Muark!" so much as "How can we do this one thing?"  "And this other thing?" "And this thing?" and then looking for the best fit in existing lore, rather than making stuff up out of thin air that has never been reflected in the game.

Am I going to tell you what those things are?  No.  It is quite probable if I did it would influence IG behavior of those dealing with the Muark.  This a reason we don't tell you what the plots are, either.

[Lizzie]

There was a Muark wagon parked in Allanak maybe, two years ago? 2017-2018ish I think. So yeah - the Tan Muark were not decimated, their existence "somewhere in the known" has not been a secret.

They're now being made playable again, with some changes to reflect the IC evolution AND the OOC need to eliminate pejorative terms. I'm not seeing a problem.

[Miggy]

I actually like the idea of a bunch of tribes being open for play, desert elf and human. There could be conflict between tribes that could ally or be enemies. It allows for more diverse player concepts and what I think it will bring to the game is more choices for the players of how they want to flesh out their characters rather than just 'choose city state A or choose city state B' 

[tapas]

Of all the things to whinge about. I'm hoping this will add some flavor to tribal roles since they do feel rather samey.

Maybe next year they'll reopen the conclave.

[number13]

For what it's worth, I share Bebop's sentiments and impressions of the old tribe. I thought they were scattered/destroyed for OOC reasons, the same as halflings and kanks. The Muark were Mary Sue-ish, discordant with game's setting, edging way over the line between real world and fantasy world racism, and personally I would have kept them swept under the rug.

That said, I could see the Muark being brought back under a new guise with a new purpose, and being really cool. One of the problem is, I can't type out why I think it might be cool, because it's likely a Find out IC situation.

But maybe we, as a community in general, should be a little more trusting with each other, and pull way back on the Find out IC paradigm. If my theory (the Muarki are secretly were-kanks from the moon) is correct, then people (even old school Muaki haters like me and Beb) might be excited, instead of wary.

[X-D]

I am just...for the first time ever I think...going to have to totally agree with Bebop, Triste and Number13.

And the Tan Muark will always carry the stigma of the past, both OOC and IC...so I have to wonder, why did you all not simply open a brand new tribe? New name and all just with the docs and backround of what you think the Tan Muark should have been? I mean hell, you could have just made them a black sheep, used to be tan muark tribe that split off sometime not long before the rest got wiped out because the rest were not holding with the "true" Muarki tradition...just about anything.

[Bebop]

To clarify I'm not saying the Muarki are going to just completely suck and the players that play them will suck and the staff just suck.

What I am saying is they were problematic on IC and OOC levels and I don't understand the logic behind bringing them back.  It doesn't fit any of the stances staff have taken as far as not spreading out the game world and getting rid of non-thematic cheese.  And this constant answer of ... we can't tell you, it's for reasons frustrates me.

I also feel like were I playing I would be cringing when time came to interact with these guys because there's been no IC or OOC updates in game.  Not in the two years since I've been back. Maybe longer.  To see them suddenly trucking around would give me whiplash as everyone fumbles to be like oooh here's this clan that was starkly put in for OOC reasons that we don't know about.

There's just a lot of things wrong with this announcement.  I don't get it on many levels and I find it frustrating as a player, or someone who was a player up to the point of this announcement.

I'm simply of the opinion the game absolutely doesn't need this, I don't see it benefiting the game at large in any major way if at all, I see it being another niche faction.  I'm surprised staff think this is something worth putting a bunch of their time into given their stances so far.  I clearly don't get the direction the game is going.  Maybe it will be totally amazing, who knows. 

At present?  I don't see how this is going to benefit the game, and it seems to in fact fact further spread out the player base by dredging up yet another tribe while many of the other tribes are dispersed, lack player interaction and go unpopulated --- yet remain open.

I think these are valid concerns and the answer seems to be like, well there's some cool reasons probably but we can't tell you guys.  That answer is fast becoming a stale blanket statement used to not justify any decisions made.

These are the exact issues I was bringing up in my gameplay vs playability thread.

Where is the plot to bridge this into something playable?  Where is the communication?  Where is taking into account the experience of PC after PC for RL and IG years?  If we're gonna do this can we get a plot leading up to it?  Can PCs be beholden to the knowledge of where a wagon that takes considerable coin and resources produce came from or hints of it getting built?  Can we get some kind of OOC hype from the staff about how this is going to benefit the game world and not just take away the staff's time focusing on another tribal niche group that probably will rarely interact with the only city-state IG?

[triste]

Alright y'all

reboots usually suck, maybe this one is going to be good

The role call is for five fracking openings. In probabilistic terms, a roleplayer you have interacted with before, like, and trust will likely be involved.

Also if I hear about waterslides one more time, I am going to lose it. As a player who returned after a multi-year hiatus and heard about "waterslides" I immediately knew I didn't want to know whatever the fuck this was about. Apparently it's some euphemism for the favoritism the Tan Muark used to have? Guess what, I don't care.

Let's see how this rolecall goes, I am glad we've cleaned up some bad legacy in the process here for the sake of our players who do have Romani heritage. Let's let some players interested in this theme also have fun in the process.

[BadSkeelz]

Only waterslides are gonna be  them noble ladies when my Muarki Mark saunters up.

[triste]

You're killing me, Smalls Skeelz.

[triste]

I would have kept them swept under the rug.

I also agree with this, in part. I actually never heard the term "gypsy" in game in the last year or so I've played because I think we already realized it was, ehhhhh...

[ChuciPeppers]

I just hope that their private bendune lexicon will not be lifted straight from the extremely cringetastic World of Darkness Gypsies book as it was before.

I had played a character in the clan back in like 2010, and then around 2015 or so found out that the lexicon on their clan page was lifted almost directly from the WoD book after googling one or two of the words from the page, and then as I had a tribal character at the time who was implied heavily was distantly tied to them (grandchild of one I think?) I started peppering their language with bits and pieces of the lexicon and got chewed out for using them without having access to the clan documentation but the bitch of it is that about 90% or more of the clan specific bendune words came literally directly out of a table of words from another game's book, one easily findable anywhere online. It was a real pisser and I'd hate to see that happen again.

Otherwise? The Phral were one of this gaje's favorite clans.

[number13]

World of Darkness Gypsies book

Oh god. It all makes sense now. The Tan Muarki were WoD gypsies.

I've changed my vote. Bury it deep, cover with concrete, and pray future generations never break the seal.

[Caverin]

I've removed a post from here - so far the rest of the thread has been alright. Can we please be careful to post and share our opinions without attacking other players/being unnecessarily antagonistic towards them and their own opinions.

Thank you.

[ScramblesForPurchase]

Alright y'all

reboots usually suck, maybe this one is going to be good

The role call is for five fracking openings. In probabilistic terms, a roleplayer you have interacted with before, like, and trust will likely be involved.

Also if I hear about waterslides one more time, I am going to lose it. As a player who returned after a multi-year hiatus and heard about "waterslides" I immediately knew I didn't want to know whatever the fuck this was about. Apparently it's some euphemism for the favoritism the Tan Muark used to have? Guess what, I don't care.

Let's see how this rolecall goes, I am glad we've cleaned up some bad legacy in the process here for the sake of our players who do have Romani heritage. Let's let some players interested in this theme also have fun in the process.

All of that. I feel like we're shooting a bunch of players in the face before they even start. I don't usually get all vocal about stuff but good lord people. This thread at certain points feels like we're roundabout labelling a handful of players who haven't even been picked yet, a bunch of "waterslide trash"

Lets not do that and like, have a bit of faith people will take this and make it fun, and do fun stuff with it, maybe? Or something?

That is all.

[Lizzie]

1) they don't have the old stigma attached to any of the players who started playing after they were skuttled. Which is to say - MOST of the current playerbase.
2. the "lexicon" is comprised mostly of an actual language. Or rather, an actual system of languages: the Romani. It's not just one language. There are several dialects that have their own similar lexicon to each other. The word "vardo" really does mean cart, though the more common Romani languages use "verdo." Sort of the difference between the proper "all of you" vs. the southern "all y'all" vs. the Brooklyn "youz." It's all the same thing and it's all English.

There are a very few actual veteran players left who remember the stigma and WHY there was a stigma. I suggest to you veterans, that you stop attaching that stigma to the new incarnation of a tribe that MOST of your fellow players have never encountered. When you keep griping about the stigma, you give that stigma power. Stop it with the waterslides and baby-stealing and what not, and let the new players turn the Tan Muark into something that makes sense for it to be, after 70 years have passed in-game.

[Hauwke]

If they ever get an actual waterslide I will start a protest.

[Dresan]

If they ever get an actual waterslide I will start a protest.

You know I was never sure about the water slides, but they had a large pool of water in there that was coming in from somewhere. My ranger sneaked in there by climbing through the mountains on the south east side. I had no ideas i was even in Muarki lands until I saw that. My character drank from it....and then pissed in it. He got out of there before staff noticed. In my report, staff asked that if i ever wanted to sneak in there again that i let them know so they could ensure i have a more authentic experience.

That was well over 10 years ago now...my god time has flown.

As someone who hated the entire IC concept of 'Tan Muark' and saw staff animate whole kuraci units to help support these players to strip down a newbie of their gwoshi items, I think concerns are clearly warranted but I am optimistic.

I am really hoping to see a grittier tribe that is still struggling to rebuild while facing hate and prejudice that other tribes don't face to such an extent. Their old "friends" the kuraci aren't the sole owners of the outpost anymore. Not sure how much kurac is willing to stick their neck out for a tribe that can no longer provide strong support. Allanak who are partly responsible for the destruction of their lands should probably be a death trap for them. Regardless of whatever justification can be brought up, I would be disappointed seeing then rolling into Allanak when other areas outside allanak need love.

There is potential here, and I am eager to see what comes out of it.   

[Bebop]

Even if it's a grittier tribe what will another tribe add to the game that aaaaallll of the other niche iso tribes aren't providing?

[triste]

Even if it's a grittier tribe what will another tribe add to the game that aaaaallll of the other niche iso tribes aren't providing?

A cool wagon. I for one am stoked to play Zalanthan trailer trash [not a racial statement, anyone can be trailer trash!], if not via this rolecall then later on.

Really I do get your point, but I don't think this is the most momentous, game changing decision staff has ever made. When the Soh closed, I was bummed I never got to play one, but I understand it may reopen later. It is nice to periodically reopen closed roles so that people who want to play them can have the chance.

I do also hope Staff take your feedback when they consider what to open next as well!

[number13]

Even if it's a grittier tribe what will another tribe add to the game that aaaaallll of the other niche iso tribes aren't providing?

Let's say they've been kicked out of Luirs. The Kuraci have their own problems, and 70 years later, little use for the scattered remains of the Tan Muarki.

The Muarki would be a bitterly hated tribe with no lands, no friends, and lots of enemies trying to keep their people together and find someway to prosper, or at least survive. (and frankly, they probably have X, Y, and Z type characters in their tribe as well, making them even more pariah in civilized lands.) Where do they go? Who can they possibly align themselves with? Tuluk would turn them into mind-slaves; Allanak would shackle them and throw them into the Arena for sport. D-elves won't want the competition on their lands, nor other tribal humans. Someone can probably think up a good reason why the Sand Lord wouldn't want them around, too.

They would have to interact mostly with more rebellious elements of the world -- rogue ginkers, ashlayers, raiders, the Guild. But becoming known for those types of alliances would inspire templars to give chase and finally put them in the ground for good. 

If it's like a Battlestar Galatica type thing, where they have to keep moving, and they're constantly hazed and forced to leave anywhere they stop, then it could make for an interesting story, especially if the stakes are real. If the PC leaders fuck up, the tribe is extinguished.

But....there's two problems with this.

First, the Tan Muarki were (unfortunately) based on a real world ethnicity that is historically persecuted. Turning their tribe into a persecuted pariahs facing extinction deepens the parallels.

Second, that play style does not at all resemble what old school Muarki players would expect, which more like preening about in expensive clothes, rubbing shoulders with highborn, and ending the day in massive fuck piles. Anyone theoretically interested in rekindling that type of role would be disappointed. Anyone disinterested in that play style...maybe isn't going to very interested in playing a Muark in the first place?

I know for me,  if the role was Battlestar Galatica in the wastes, I would be interested. I'd at least think about applying. But then you add in the words "Tan Muark" and my interest evaporates.

...

[triste]

First, the Tan Muarki were (unfortunately) based on a real world ethnicity that is historically persecuted. Turing their tribe into a persecuted pariahs facing extinction deepens the parallels.

Staff has made changes to intentionally sever this real world baggage. This should no longer be considered a factor.

If I let the weird racist comments from JRR Tolkien about elves and orcs concern me, I wouldn't as a person who respects differences play any game with Tolkien like elves. But fortunately I -- and many of us -- realize that roleplaying as a genre has evolved past this legacy. Same thing here: this connection to RL cultures can and probably should be considered moot.

[HeeBeeGB]

I mostly see it as an alternative to Arabet and Al'Seik, or a non-affiliated tribal. I don't necessarily buy into the Consolidation is Key argument, and it seems from actions over words, Staff doesn't altogether. There are only so many times you can play in Allanak now without burning out and wanting to play abroad or in a different flavor or scope. That's mostly due to consolidation and leaders living much longer than in the past, IMHO.

It's kind of a catch 22 for a GDB argument -- We ask Staff to come up with new areas/new races/new playable options because the game is stagnant/older/not tweaked with often, and then when they do, we throw it back in their faces. I think anything is worth trying from a creative standpoint, assessing if it is working or not working, and going from there. It is much preferable to not trying something new (or bringing back something old with a new spin or shine to it) and just trucking along with the status quo.

That being said, I'm glad the Romani/Gypsy stuff was looked at under a magnifying glass. Having looked at their lexicon/documentation as well, it was needlessly bulky and difficult to dissect. The language additions were sort of silly when you consider Bendune already translates Sirihish, and it always felt like if you didn't know all the cool kid words, you were an idiot. I hated that.

[Blink]

A lot of stuff that was spot on.

What the heck!  Are you a mind bender IRL or what?  Get out of my head!

Seriously though, I agree with everything HeeBeeGB said and just wanted to add a few random thoughts.  Back when I started playing this game in 2003 I remember playing a Borsail aide when the Muarki wagon came to town.  It was a very exciting time.  The Muarki were known to be dashing, charismatic, exotic and all that kind of stuff and even just getting a chance to go on the wagon was like winning a big lottery prize.  They had the coolest stuff that you just couldn't find anyplace else.  Over the years my enthusiasm may have waned a bit but I remember always having a good time interacting with them just the same. They brought with them much flavour and lots of plots.

I really look forward to seeing this new iteration of them.  I can feel a bit of that excitement I had 17 years ago (OMG has it really been that long?).  I have a lot of faith in staff that they will be bringing something that will fit with Zalanthas as it is right now and not be a throwback to times gone by.  If it doesn't quite work, I am sure they will tweak it till it does or support/assist the first players in the clan in doing so.

[Riev]

The language additions were sort of silly when you consider Bendune already translates Sirihish, and it always felt like if you didn't know all the cool kid words, you were an idiot. I hated that.

Baxt. Oh you don't know baxt? You arent in the cool kids club.