Muark!

[LindseyBalboa]

HeeBeeGeeB hit it on the head. When I first started not that long ago, vets complained that staff didn't do anything. Now, people complain about staff doing stuff they don't like or agree with, when staff puts in pretty frequent changes, or complain that they wished staff was doing the changes they want.

I understand a few people seem to have bad memories of the Tan Muark... But like, okay? What in the world convinces you that the same things will happen? There are literal posts from staff saying there have been changes, and even the role call insinuates this is a tribe with great troubles to overcome. Give 'em a chance, and play them, or don't. I know a lot of you have played a decade or two here and you care a lot and you're invested, but if you're playing a game and currently enjoying it, maybe just... trust the staff to provide a fun time for the player base.

For juxtaposition, my only memory of the Tan Muark is from being a very fresh player, looking at the help file and thinking "oh cool that looks fun to play." Now I get to see them on grid. I had the same reaction to Dune Stalkers, and maybe I'll see them, too. I had the same reaction to the Soh, but they were shut down for the Two Moon before I got to play one, and I had the same reaction to the Two Moon and tried to get it on them. Now, there's a new tribe going in without something else shutting down. I say that's a total win, and I look forward to more groups opening up, especially without losing any groups!

As an aside, to Bebop: I know I've had a few scenes with you on one character, and I enjoyed them. I liked you as a player! However, I simply don't understand what you're trying to accomplish, accusing staff of not 'using plot' to introduce the Tan Muark - they haven't even hit the grid yet. I don't understand why you're demanding an answer as to why staff chose the Tan Muark - again, that's obviously going to come out as IC information that will be found out by those still playing over the course of the next few months. You just posted that you're leaving the game because it's taking up your time, and then minutes later posting about how you disagree with staff and you don't understand their motives. Without being condescending: Taking a break is okay, we've all done it from various games, but you're not taking a break at this point. You're just kinda shitting on stuff that other players might find interesting and helping to bias players that have no experience with the subject matter.

[Bast]

I would be extremely excited about this role you are potentially going to be shaping the future of this clan. Are they going to stay nomadic? Can they find a new homeland? How to they secure new territory with depleted numbers? Which devil do you have to make a deal with to survive? I think its an epic opportunity to make a very cool impact on the game. If I weren't a year into a PC I love, I would absolutely cut some bitches to get this role. 

[Halcyon]

As an aside, to Bebop: I know I've had a few scenes with you on one character, and I enjoyed them. I liked you as a player! However, I simply don't understand what you're trying to accomplish, accusing staff of not 'using plot' to introduce the Tan Muark - they haven't even hit the grid yet. I don't understand why you're demanding an answer as to why staff chose the Tan Muark - again, that's obviously going to come out as IC information that will be found out by those still playing over the course of the next few months. You just posted that you're leaving the game because it's taking up your time, and then minutes later posting about how you disagree with staff and you don't understand their motives. Without being condescending: Taking a break is okay, we've all done it from various games, but you're not taking a break at this point. You're just kinda shitting on stuff that other players might find interesting and helping to bias players that have no experience with the subject matter.

There is a plot in game involving the Tan Muark.  Find out IC.

[LindseyBalboa]

Even better!

[number13]

Find out IC.

💩

Events in game should be better broadcast out to players in isolated roles, or lapsed players, or players who maybe only log in for a few hours a week. "Find out IC" should be reserved to questions like, "Who is secretly a [scary character class]?" Or, "Who ordered the assassination of [important PC]?"  World events that are generally public knowledge to a large segment of the player base, even stuff like character deaths (or death via promotion) of big deal PCs should be promulgated and explicitly open for discussion.

Seriously, we should trust players not to mix IC and OOC knowledge. We do so routinely, every time a 1-hour old grebber pretends that he doesn't know the spell list for [class X] or pretends that he doesn't know a character that just killed his last PC.

[Lizzie]

Find out IC.

💩

Events in game should be better broadcast out to players in isolated roles, or lapsed players, or players who maybe only log in for a few hours a week. "Find out IC" should be reserved to questions like, "Who is secretly a [scary character class]?" Or, "Who ordered the assassination of [important PC]?"  World events that are generally public knowledge to a large segment of the player base, even stuff like character deaths (or death via promotion) of big deal PCs should be promulgated and explicitly open for discussion.

Seriously, we should trust players not to mix IC and OOC knowledge. We do so routinely, every time a 1-hour old grebber pretends that he doesn't know the spell list for [class X] or pretends that he doesn't know a character that just killed his last PC.

Events go on all the time, and they are not broadcast. Mostly because they're inconsequential in the scheme of things. The Tan Muark was not a dead tribe. They've existed all along. Their homeland was decimated, many (most?) of their members killed, but the bloodlines remained. This was never kept a secret, it was commonly known, at least to anyone who was paying attention at the time.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, one of the Muark wagons had been parked in the Allanak wagonyard as recently as a couple of years ago. They had items for sale, and anyone could have gone into it and purchased from it if it suited them to do so. Furthermore, the Muark shop in Luir's was never removed, it was always there, available to anyone who wanted to play a game or buy an item.

Currently, there is nothing being kept from the playerbase. It's a non-issue. The only thing happening, that IS being "broadcast," is that the tribe is once again available for players to play. You take what you already know: their ancestral home is no longer populated, 70 years of adjustments in their culture and attitude toward the rest of the world to accommodate the loss of their ancestral home, and...soon..you'll be able to CREATE the storyline and plots as soon as PCs roll into the game.

[teacup]

PCs around Luir's have seen Muark NPCs at various RPTs in the last RL year and the Muark have a tent there that sells things and stuff. They've not been dead and gone in the least. They've been closed to play, that is all.

[Gentleboy]

I knew it was the Tan Muark from the get-go and I looked at the post and thought, "but why".

I agree with Bebop. I don't think we need another tribe added to the game currently. Especially one that I think people will have trouble telling apart from the Arabet. I think there's a large enough crowd of people in Luir's. A lot of clan-coded tribals and original tribals already hang around there. Most tribes are in the North already. I am not sure what element this tribe brings to the game, but as someone who has never seen the tribe before in game, I can say right now I am not excited at all. I would have loved something completely off kilter. When Jal opened? Fuck yeah. When the Atrium opened? Fuck yeah. Unexpected and offered new environments and perspective. What new perspective does the tribe offer me? "I'm the last of my tribe?" That old backstory used for most tribals?

I'm just gonna roll with the game and continue doing me, so if you're playing a Muark congrats and know that I am happy for you! I just wish that something else was reopened that would add a future to the game while building off the history instead of bringing something literally back from history.

Also, Nak being the only city in the game, odd that RP traction is being pushed towards Luir's. Open up Tuluk if you want us North so bad!

[Barsook]

I agree on the fact that it's the old "last of my peoples" troupe. I would rather see a new tribe that branched off from an old one in the South. We already have two human tribes and a d-elf tribe up there, but what does the South have? Just a d-elf tribe? If I recall, wasn't the Tan Murak a southern human tribe? If that's the case, I do see why there is a tribe in the south, what I don't see is some sort of balance between the two regions of the Known with the coded tribals.

But I will just roll with it and play the game to escape real life. And to work to together on tell stories and even world building to a degree.

[Pale Horse]

Tan Muark were very much not a southern human tribe.

[Dar]

Just let people play for fuck sakes.



If the roles are going to be uninteresting, people will either die out, store out, or change things to make it interesting.

Personally? I loved playing the Muarki. I was one of the Tan Muarki "after" the destruction of Dashra. Infiltrated the guild, infiltrated Oash, spread rumours of Madreki encroaching on where the TM survivors lingered, just to prevent my kin from settling near Allanak for too long. Done all kinds of stuff to keep the hatred alive.

If I was able to actually reliably play, I would give up both of my neighbour's firstborns to be able to play that role.

[Greve]

I'm not a big fan of tribes. They rarely seem to have any valuable impact on the game, with select exceptions (Blackwing's heyday, Hot_Dancer's SLK, Veddi's Tan Muark), and the game has always had this musical chairs situation with regards to tribes. One is opened, stays afloat for as long as its original batch of app-ins lasts, and then fizzles out. We used to have so many tribes it was silly, and closing most of them was the right move.

Unfortunately this has not seemed to give the existing tribes any real boost. On the contrary, they're even more irrelevant these days than ever before. In a world that can't be changed by players, the tribe clan concept just falls flat. They end up sitting somewhere in a tent wondering what they might do to remain noticeable, and usually the answer is to kill people or trade with people. Neither is particularly novel or exciting.

In my mind, there should have been two grand tribes in the game, one elven and one human. The elven one could be fiercely territorial and preside over the Tablelands while the human one could be nomadic. Then give them enough genuine purpose within the setting to make players care about their existence. Noone who lives outside the Tablelands ever had much reason to care what goes on in there, which is a shame because it's the coolest area in the game. This is where Armageddon has always failed: the lore says that peoples constantly compete and fight for this and that, but the game just doesn't facilitate it.

Each tribe should have some meaningful real estate, like the Blackwing Outpost, which since the closing of that tribe has just been the Red Storm of the Tablelands. And just as even native characters of Red Storm feel like tourists there because the town's institutions aren't represented by players, Tablelands elves have not felt like the Blackwing Outpost was real since its presiding tribe was closed. Something like that should be operated by players.

The human tribe should have a moving camp. There was a tribe that had one but the name escapes me. It should be big enough to represent an entire tribe, not four tents and a firepit like most tribal camps are. Something the size of the Blackwing Outpost that moves around the world at regular intervals. The Tan Muark could be that tribe. They fit the bill pretty well, and it was always weird to me that the "gypsies" had a static home in a luxurious valley.

Maybe have the Muark annex most of the human tribes, and the same with Blackwing for the elves. These were always the two real tribes. Make it a project over the course of the next year to put them back on the map and make civilized society worry about the rise of the tribals. Call it a consequence of the collapse of northern civilization. There'd be room for conflict both within the tribes, and between them and the urban peoples. That sounds a lot more interesting to me than four dudes living in a tent somewhere who occasionally show up in Allanak to sell shit nobody wants. There's a lot of potential for tribes in the game, it just hasn't been utilized in ages.

[Gentleboy]

I'm not a big fan of tribes. They rarely seem to have any valuable impact on the game, with select exceptions (Blackwing's heyday, Hot_Dancer's SLK, Veddi's Tan Muark), and the game has always had this musical chairs situation with regards to tribes. One is opened, stays afloat for as long as its original batch of app-ins lasts, and then fizzles out. We used to have so many tribes it was silly, and closing most of them was the right move.

Unfortunately this has not seemed to give the existing tribes any real boost. On the contrary, they're even more irrelevant these days than ever before. In a world that can't be changed by players, the tribe clan concept just falls flat. They end up sitting somewhere in a tent wondering what they might do to remain noticeable, and usually the answer is to kill people or trade with people. Neither is particularly novel or exciting.

In my mind, there should have been two grand tribes in the game, one elven and one human. The elven one could be fiercely territorial and preside over the Tablelands while the human one could be nomadic. Then give them enough genuine purpose within the setting to make players care about their existence. Noone who lives outside the Tablelands ever had much reason to care what goes on in there, which is a shame because it's the coolest area in the game. This is where Armageddon has always failed: the lore says that peoples constantly compete and fight for this and that, but the game just doesn't facilitate it.

Each tribe should have some meaningful real estate, like the Blackwing Outpost, which since the closing of that tribe has just been the Red Storm of the Tablelands. And just as even native characters of Red Storm feel like tourists there because the town's institutions aren't represented by players, Tablelands elves have not felt like the Blackwing Outpost was real since its presiding tribe was closed. Something like that should be operated by players.

The human tribe should have a moving camp. There was a tribe that had one but the name escapes me. It should be big enough to represent an entire tribe, not four tents and a firepit like most tribal camps are. Something the size of the Blackwing Outpost that moves around the world at regular intervals. The Tan Muark could be that tribe. They fit the bill pretty well, and it was always weird to me that the "gypsies" had a static home in a luxurious valley.

Maybe have the Muark annex most of the human tribes, and the same with Blackwing for the elves. These were always the two real tribes. Make it a project over the course of the next year to put them back on the map and make civilized society worry about the rise of the tribals. Call it a consequence of the collapse of northern civilization. There'd be room for conflict both within the tribes, and between them and the urban peoples. That sounds a lot more interesting to me than four dudes living in a tent somewhere who occasionally show up in Allanak to sell shit nobody wants. There's a lot of potential for tribes in the game, it just hasn't been utilized in ages.

The part about sitting in the tents is so true. Ha.. My tribal experiences in a nutshell.

[triste]

Everytime someone critiques the opening of the Tan Muark, it's productive to mention what might have been a better clan to open.

I like Greve's feedback with the added note that it omits City Elves.

I don't think anyone can refute this: opening a city elf tribe would add more to the game because no City Elf tribe is open. If the main critique of the Tan Muark is that it is redundant, let's look at clan openings which by definition would be 100% non-redundant! I do think that opening Tan Muark is not, in net, bad; however many people are saying the Tan Muark is a bit redundant and they are right to an extent. OP had good ideas of what's less redundant, but I am just going to remind people what we actually in fact need in this game and would have been completely unredundant: a city elf tribe.

* redundant and derivatives therein intentionally used 729865 times because [1] this thread is so long and filled with the same point about the Tan Muark being redundant YES GOOD POINT THIS IS CORRECT [2] please open a C-Elf tribe when and why not.

[Lizzie]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Tan Muark being re-opened for play. If you read the staff posts more carefully, you'll find hints. Here's my summary of the hints:

Something is going on. In order to progress the plot around this something, other things need to happen/exist/provide context.

The Muark tribe has been re-opened to help with this. It may or may not close once this Something is resolved, but it is a necessary thing at the moment.

[triste]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Tan Muark being re-opened for play. If you read the staff posts more carefully, you'll find hints. Here's my summary of the hints:

Something is going on. In order to progress the plot around this something, other things need to happen/exist/provide context.

The Muark tribe has been re-opened to help with this. It may or may not close once this Something is resolved, but it is a necessary thing at the moment.

I am pretty sure every single person criticizing the Tan Muark knows this. They are questioning why these plots have been manufactured around the Tan Muark when alternatives likely could have been had.

Prior to the announcement I saw no rumblings IG indicating a necessary return of the Muark and I think critics are operating with the probably correct assumption that this plot you are alluding to was manufactured for the Muark and those resources could have gone elsewhere; therefore the plots involved are a moot point.

Whatever is special about the Tan Muark to make them "necessary" could have gone into the development of a tribe or clan adding more is the argument. I agree: even a dwarven tribe with wagons could have added more. I agree that relative to other clans the Muark is redundant AF; that said the Muark opening isn't awful perse.

[Shabago]

Imagine, if you will, you really liked a portion of the game world or wanted an addition.

It gets done. Now go back and read this thread and let me know how your excitement and morale would be to put in effort to said role/story would be?

"I don't like it, therefore it's stupid and unnecessary." Isn't really constructive. "There's no point to this." Without having interacted with a single pc of the tribe, having a clue on the docs or - even giving it a chance, further equals not very constructive.

If you want something more 'in-line' with your play style, perhaps consider suggestions on what to open/make/create? Some of you have. Awesome. If you have ideas on how something already in play could improve, suggest it. Some of you have. Also awesome. Writing something off on misinformed/misguided beliefs on what it is, kicking your fellow players for liking something you do not and so on? Not so much.

Perhaps it's time to start a new thread regarding new additions. Be it new clan, new content to existing clan, etc? I'll read it. I can't guarantee everything put forth will come to pass, (world fit, theme fit, power balances) but hearing from you all regarding desired XYZ certainly won't hurt. I'm aware like-threads have been in play before, but as we all know - time changes opinion/want.

Really guys, let's see the creativity put towards a better arm future over/above the bashing seen here (in part).

[number13]

Now go back and read this thread and let me know how your excitement and morale would be to put in effort to said role/story would be?

It's mostly just me and Bebop complaining -- a mostly lapsed player (who was never into tribal play to begin with) and a player who recently said she permaquit. Everyone else seems mostly on board with the idea, and even I'm looking forward to eventually figuring out what's up with the nuMuark.

I do appreciate that y'all is keeping the game going. If my remarks came across as less than constructive, then it's my bad, not yours.

[Narf]

Imagine, if you will, you really liked a portion of the game world or wanted an addition.

It gets done. Now go back and read this thread and let me know how your excitement and morale would be to put in effort to said role/story would be?

"I don't like it, therefore it's stupid and unnecessary." Isn't really constructive. "There's no point to this." Without having interacted with a single pc of the tribe, having a clue on the docs or - even giving it a chance, further equals not very constructive.

Rule 1 for offering unsolicited criticism for someone else's project: Be polite.

In the real world I've had to seek criticism for a variety of projects I've worked on and there is a drastic difference in my productivity and enthusiasm both for addressing that criticism and working on future projects based on how polite the respondent is. And that's for /solicited/ criticism. It's even more important to be polite when the criticism you're offering is not solicited.

You don't even have to be a good or altruistically minded person for this advice to be applicable. People want things done, they're gonna have to show a little empathy for the people that do them.

That's not to say you have to like or support every idea out there. Criticism is important, but it's only useful if you don't completely shut the other person down/out while you're doing it. I feel like this is a ridiculously obvious statement, but I think when people go into "rant mode" it gets thrust by the wayside. The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose. That goes double for unsolicited project feedback posts.

[number13]

The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose.

Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit.

[Barsook]

Tan Muark were very much not a southern human tribe.

I meant one based in the south not how would a southern tribe would act. Then again, that might be a new topic for another day.

[Narf]

The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose.

Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit.

Someone complaining could be much better, if it's done properly. If done improperly it's probably better just to stay quiet.

[triste]

The purpose of their criticism shifts from making the game better to just venting their personal frustrations. Rants are important and necessary sometimes, but the GDB is probably the worst choice of places to go on a rant you could choose.

Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit.

Someone complaining could be much better, if it's done properly. If done improperly it's probably better just to stay quiet.

"Just saying, someone complaining is better than absolutely no one caring one way or the other. It shows that people at least give a shit." Definitely agree with this.

Sure, maybe the GDB isn't the best forum for this discussion. Requests on armageddon.org, however, are not the best medium either as it isolates one player's feedback from everyone else's and is more likely to be passed over quietly. Discord is not the best medium either for the same reason as the GDB, except at an increased velocity.

If we don't have the option to give our feedback before a change happens, and are allowed only to give feedback after the fact, it by definition falls into this trope of "Staff went through all this effort to build this, and now you are just criticizing it." Yes, we are only contributing by criticizing, because by definition we are only being allowed to give feedback after the fact.

I have _no_ idea how Staff can get our feedback before major decisions like this. It's possible that feedback is already gathered, but if it is, it's not gathered openly and only among a subset of players. If this is the case, every player excluded from giving initial feedback has a right to give their feedback (or "criticism") after the fact.

So yes, by definition our only option is to comment /after/ the fact, and this often leads to derailments and proposals for future changes (what you call a rant seems at least in part appreciated by Shabago as he mentions liking the more proactive feedback). As N13 says here -- it all comes from a good place. And unfortunately non-democratic, behind-closed-doors decision making processes that do not involve public feedback will result in reactionary outcry: that is by definition how this current process works.

[Narf]

Just to be perfectly clear, I said the GDB was a terrible place for project related rants

For polite criticism, you're right, there's not a lot of option currently in place.

[HeeBeeGB]

It's true. Without market research, or market research basically only among Staff, you are basically shooting in the dark when it comes to player reactions and buy in. But, as triste says, for the most part people are offering constructive criticism and critique. I would say most people who play this game are willing to give things a shot or see how they play out as much as Staff is, and if it is a failed experiment, it becomes pretty obvious over time.