Bitching about the economy updates/questions thread: Armor edition

[Namino]

The heaviest sets of metal armor in the medieval ages were approximately 25kg.

If anything this is telling me you ought to be able to make a lot more sets of armor out of one silt horror then is currently possible. Or get several less heavy shells when you skin one.

If we were interested in realism afterall, of course. Nobody is fighting a battle wearing 320lbs of armor on top of their other equipment (weapons and supplies). It's even a stretch that a HG would be effective in what amounts to 6x the weight of the heaviest earth armor.

[Jihelu]

What Namino said.

I suggest people take a look at this video to see how maneuverable someone should be in a full set of plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI&feature=youtu.be

[Shabago]

You might notice my end points in the last post. Also, attempting to compare metal to anything Zalanthas is hardly going to work. A sea turtle can have a shell over a thousand pounds with 1.5 inch thickness and be (with knowledge) enough shell to cover a 6ft person head to toe.

I'm not about to make your horror shell 500 stone. Promise.

[Namino]

You might notice my end points in the last post. Also, attempting to compare metal to anything Zalanthas is hardly going to work. A sea turtle can have a shell over a thousand pounds with 1.5 inch thickness and be (with knowledge) enough shell to cover a 6ft person head to toe.

I spent several years researching sea turtles. Leatherbacks, the largest of the sea-turtles, have a total mean weight of about 850lbs, of which a tiny fraction is their shell, which isn't even that hard (hence their name). I think some truly exceptional Leatherbacks might almost get to 1,500lbs, but to suggest that they're 2/3rds shell is not accurate. The largest sea-turtle with a typical hard shell is the green turtle (Chelonia mydas), which was my subject species, and their total weight rarely exceeds 700 pounds. I would imagine their shell wouldn't even account for a third of that total weight. Anyway, nitpicking aside.

An iron ore deposit can weigh several thousand tonnes, yet metal armor didn't exceed 25kg. The point being that the entirety of the raw material available doesn't have to be used in the end product. A silt horror (much bigger than a leatherback!) probably has a shell weighing up to a tonne, but it doesn't mean you're mandatorily converting one whole shell to one whole, one tonne, breastplate. In reality, you'd probably make 30-40 breastplates from that shell if you can find workable parts.

I understand you're already acknowledging this problem, Shabago, in the name of playability. However, it's also realistic to have armor from the silt horror shell that weighs far, far less (1/10th) the weight of the original shell. Conserving the weight (or even an appreciable fraction of it) between raw material -> finished product would be the truly unrealistic process.

[X-D]

Also, Because arm is old...we have encumbrance, but that is only handled by weight. IRL they are not the same thing, A Victorian silk dress and everything that goes with it might weigh 10lbs but certainly encumbers more then 80lbs of articulated plate armor.

Secondly, trying to say because a craft costs an entire shell you have to make a weight the same for the armor is rather...Um...silly? My bet is that more then half the crafts in game are more then ten years old and about 1/3 15+ years old. And back then there were and still are many crafts using a far more limited number of materials then exist today. So, that obsidian breastplate takes a large chunk of obsidian to craft but when you look at it, it says a leather shirt with obsidian plates and bone buckles.

Since all we have to represent encumbrance is weight then WHAT the item is, how it is engineered should matter more then the materials themselves should decide the weight and hence encumbrance. I assure you, articulated plate, Buckskin style leathers and hard armors that do not attach to each other (think Ancient rome) Are less encumbering then tight jeans and a tight silk shirt.

It takes only a few moments of research, youtube and such to see how unencumbering well engineered armor and other protective gear can be.

Also, humans make up most the population and are in control so most armor should be designed for them, yes, even and specially such high priced gear as horror. They cannot be any dumber then earth humans in the 12th century and would design gear easily usable by them, otherwise it is pointless.

And what about armor and gear designed by and for elves? They are almost all janky right now...weighted far over what any elf would ever design for himself or others of his tribe.

And armor actually designed for muls, half-giants and dwarves weighs more and protects less then it should. Will this be rebalanced as well? I mean 300lbs armor sure, I have no problem with that since only 3 races could wear it, but it should make them basically invulnerable to lesser attacks and beings.

[Brokkr]

That is how it used to work, and we fixed it.  Not looking to go back.

If you use scrab shell for a human and a half giant breastplate, the assumption is that the thickness of the shell is the same, thus the actual protective value is the same.

[Dresan]

So long as leather vests don't weigh as much as spiked shell armor anymore and we get some 1 or 2 pound leather sleeves I'll happy.

[Shabago]

As there continues to be some concern as to how the pending armor updates will play out, especially with regards to the weight of items impacting encumbrance, we'd like to be all the more transparent on the factors feeding into this component of the armor updates.

First, we have taken the material types and created aligned categories of armor based on the material type and specific materials and craftsmanship that went into making the armor:

1) Cloth armor (Includes: linen, silk, sand-cloth, cotton)

2) Cheap leather armor

3) Wood/Bone armor

4) Leather Armor

5) Heavy leather/Studded armor

6) Cheap chitin/Obsidian armor

7) Chitin/Obsidian armor

8 ) Shell armor

9) Heavy shell armor

The further down this list your armor is, the more it will weigh.  The further down this list your armor is, all other things being equal, the more it will protect you.

The amount that any particular piece of armor in general will weigh is impacted by the material category, which area of the body the armor is for and the size that the armor is tailored for. For an average sized human, unless a piece is made to specifically deviate from the norm, this would be:

            Head
            Neck
            Arms
            Wrist
            Hands
            Body
            Legs
            Feet
            Waist
            Shoulder
            Ankle

            Cloth

            0.50
            0.25
            1.00
            0.25
            0.25
            2.00
            1.25
            0.75
            0.25
            0.25
            0.25

            Cheap Leather

            0.75
            0.50
            2.00
            0.50
            0.75
            4.00
            2.75
            1.25
            0.75
            0.50
            0.50

            Wood/Bone

            1.50
            1.00
            4.00
            0.75
            1.25
            8.00
            5.25
            2.75
            1.25
            1.00
            0.75

            Leather

            1.75
            1.25
            4.50
            1.00
            1.50
            9.00
            6.00
            3.00
            1.50
            1.25
            1.00

            Heavy Leather/Studded

            2.50
            1.50
            6.00
            1.25
            2.00
            12.00
            8.00
            4.00
            2.00
            1.50
            1.25

            Cheap Chitin/Cheap Obsidian

            2.75
            1.75
            6.75
            1.25
            2.25
            13.50
            9.00
            4.50
            2.25
            1.75
            1.25

            Chitin/Obsidian

            3.25
            2.00
            8.25
            1.75
            2.75
            16.50
            11.00
            5.50
            2.75
            2.00
            1.75


            Shell

            5.00
            3.25
            12.50
            2.50
            4.25
            25.00
            16.75
            8.25
            4.25
            3.25
            2.50

            Heavy Shell

           
            7.00
            4.25
            17.25
            3.50
            5.75
            34.50
            23.00
            11.50
            5.75
            4.25
            3.50

There are a few factors that cause deviation to the norm, whether it be whether that shell you have will make shell or heavy shell armor, or exactly how protective what you make will be.  We will leave you to explore this IC'ly and come up with your own theories.

[Brokkr]

A maybe more readable version of stuff.





           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           



           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           

	Head	Neck	Arms	Wrist	Hands	Body	Legs	Feet	Waist	Shoulder	Ankle
Cloth	0.50	0.25	1.00	0.25	0.25	2.00	1.25	0.75	0.25	0.25	0.25
Cheap Leather	0.75	0.50	2.00	0.50	0.75	4.00	2.75	1.25	0.75	0.50	0.50
Wood/Bone	1.50	1.00	4.00	0.75	1.25	8.00	5.25	2.75	1.25	1.00	0.75
Leather	1.75	1.25	4.50	1.00	1.50	9.00	6.00	3.00	1.50	1.25	1.00
Heavy Leather/Studded	2.50	1.50	6.00	1.25	2.00	12.00	8.00	4.00	2.00	1.50	1.25
Cheap Chitin/Cheap Obsidian	2.75	1.75	6.75	1.25	2.25	13.50	9.00	4.50	2.25	1.75	1.25
Chitin/Obsidian	3.25	2.00	8.25	1.75	2.75	16.50	11.00	5.50	2.75	2.00	1.75
Shell	5.00	3.25	12.50	2.50	4.25	25.00	16.75	8.25	4.25	3.25	2.50
Heavy Shell	7.00	4.25	17.25	3.50	5.75	34.50	23.00	11.50	5.75	4.25	3.50

[th3kaiser]

Thanks for the transparency Brokkr.

[Brokkr]

Note that the last two, shoulder and ankle, aren't really armor spots, since you don't get hit there, but folks have over time made armor for them so we included them.

[Namino]

These are good posts. Are the units in stones?

[Dresan]

Wow wood-bone is less protective than leather? Would have though it would be just higher than chitin.

[Brokkr]

Yes, stones.

[Riev]

Wow wood-bone is less protective than leather? Would have though it would be just higher than chitin.

I would think that it depends on the wood, but its always been a light alternative in the Tuluki Legions to allow for maximum maneuverability with their artsy-fartsy combat.

However... styrax is supposedly hard to work, and agafari (at least in dark sun) is incredibly protective if thick enough.

I know they can't comment, but I'd be fine with like... leather is good for bludgeoning and piercing, but bone and wood is better against slashing and chopping.

[Dresan]

I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.

Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves  with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.

[th3kaiser]

Huh. My brain is confused by how leather is heavier than wood/bone armor...and also more protective. Weird stuff. I'd never ever ever have assumed that.

[mansa]

Note that the last two, shoulder and ankle, aren't really armor spots, since you don't get hit there, but folks have over time made armor for them so we included them.

Hey Brokkr,
Maybe you already checked it out, but characters wear two wrists, ankles, and shoulder items.

And they wear one gloves, feets items.

It looks like if you wear two wrists it can weigh 7 stone but if you wear one hands it's 5.75

That is taken into account?

[Brokkr]

Not sure what you mean.  it is per item.

[mansa]

Not sure what you mean.  it is per item.

Right, but I would wear two wrist items and would wear one hand item.
I wouldn't wear two wrist items AND two hand items

[Brokkr]

I have no idea what you are getting at.

The last two (i.e. shoulder and ankle), don't provide protection as armor because they aren't hit locations.  It is irrelevant whether you wear one or two, and has nothing to do with hand or wrist locations.

[Feco]

Do you mean that the single "gloves" or "boots" item actually contains 2 items, virtually?

[Namino]

Do you mean that the single "gloves" or "boots" item actually contains 2 items, virtually?

This.

If I wear a cloth bracer on my right wrist and my left wrist it's .5 (.25 + .25). If I wear a glove on my left hand and my right hand, it's .25 because they're one item. I think that's fine. When I think bracers I think of like the whole forearm so they should be heavier than just gloves, non e vero?

Edit: It does look like this is partially accounted for at heavier armor, so it looks like this is already being done? The hand weight scales up faster than wrist weight.

[Riev]

I have no idea what you are getting at.

The last two (i.e. shoulder and ankle), don't provide protection as armor because they aren't hit locations.  It is irrelevant whether you wear one or two, and has nothing to do with hand or wrist locations.

Shoulder and Ankle don't appear to be at discussion.

I think Mansa is saying that, item wise, you wear two wrist items, but gloves only have one item, so far as weight is concerned.
He may have been wondering if that was taken into account with the weight distribution, because should two wrists be twice as heavy as one glove item? Should glove items, that IN GAME are covering both hands be heavier?

[Namino]

I have no idea what you are getting at.

The last two (i.e. shoulder and ankle), don't provide protection as armor because they aren't hit locations.  It is irrelevant whether you wear one or two, and has nothing to do with hand or wrist locations.

Shoulder and Ankle don't appear to be at discussion.

I think Mansa is saying that, item wise, you wear two wrist items, but gloves only have one item, so far as weight is concerned.
He may have been wondering if that was taken into account with the weight distribution, because should two wrists be twice as heavy as one glove item? Should glove items, that IN GAME are covering both hands be heavier?

Again, I think bracers are proportionally quite a bit bigger than gauntlets. At higher weight classes, hand armor starts catching up ratio-wise to wrist armor, but never exceeds it, which makes sense to me.

Your hands are a lot smaller than your forearms. I know the wearloc is 'wrist' but if you look at pictures of bracers, they cover a lot more than that.