We need somewhere to complain or put suggestions forth about the economy of armor. So here it is. We'll talk about armor first in this one.
I'll start:
Obsidian armor should be worth more in the north and wood in the south. Currently it's alright, atleast wood in the south is alright, but if I recall obsidian armor up north kinda sucks. (Don't quote me)
Source -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54533.0.html
QuoteCurrently, we're working on the armor database.
- The selling/buying costs may change a little (or a lot)
- Items that were not previously craftable, will become so.
- Armor weight may go up or down, depending on item.
I have a question regarding Armor weight. Will there be race specific armor weights?
Primarily will weaker races get a slightly 'lighter' version of some armours?
And will some heavier races get some slightly 'heavier' version of the same armours?
I was thinking perhaps races could be adjusted by:
elves - 0.85
dwarves - 1.2
muls - 1.15
half-giants - I think they are already okay.
I like Mansa's suggestion
New values + certain locations = hazardous?
My pureblood human with above average wisdom and lower-end <advanced> leatherworking cannot turn a profit by working leather in Red Storm. You know, the leatherworking mechanic that pairs with the clothworking mechanic, where a person in Storm is supposed to be able to make a living by working the raw goods one shop sells, and turning them in to the warehouse. I think people know its broken, because I never see people turn in boots and gloves to the warehouse that accepts clothes and leather goods. With legacy merchants, it might have been a way to level up leatherworking so that it branches armormaking, which right now is one of the top ways to make money in the game. But its not actually being used as intended.
With boot and glove prices being as they are in the Storm shops, and the prices of the raw leather not being able to be realistically lowered that much, I think it would be fine if it just made a little money, as compared to clothworking that makes quite a bit if you put some work into it. Most of my humans that have tried, however, can't make net gain at the end of the day at advanced leatherworking. I know its not armor, but its probably related on the skill trees for a class or two.
I like mansa's suggestion.
I kind of hope the value-to-weight-to-quality balance feels more realistic.
That is to say.. something like this..
High weight + Good quality = moderate cost
High weight + Average quality = low cost
Average weight + Good quality = high cost
Average weight + Average quality = moderate cost
Low weight + Good quality = Highest cost
Low weight + Average quality = High cost
Weight = obviously how much it weighs
Quality = Protection/bonuses to things like camo or archery bracers
I think I'd prefer for the items not to have their price based on the stats and have it solely on the material and difficulty of producing the item. Using your graph, horror shell gear is cheaper than Kuraci leather. Which is y'know, sandcloth and leather.
Quote from: Jihelu on March 14, 2019, 09:39:46 PM
We need somewhere to complain or put suggestions forth about the economy of armor. So here it is. We'll talk about armor first in this one.
I'll start:
Obsidian armor should be worth more in the north and wood in the south. Currently it's alright, atleast wood in the south is alright, but if I recall obsidian armor up north kinda sucks. (Don't quote me)
This happens via taxes. Tax rates /may/ be something we look at at the end of all the economy upgrades and updates. As is stands now, however, yes - you'll get more or less for certain goods by running trade routes X to Y location.
Quote from: mansa on March 14, 2019, 10:04:26 PM
Source -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54533.0.html
QuoteCurrently, we're working on the armor database.
- The selling/buying costs may change a little (or a lot)
- Items that were not previously craftable, will become so.
- Armor weight may go up or down, depending on item.
I have a question regarding Armor weight. Will there be race specific armor weights?
Primarily will weaker races get a slightly 'lighter' version of some armours?
And will some heavier races get some slightly 'heavier' version of the same armours?
I was thinking perhaps races could be adjusted by:
elves - 0.85
dwarves - 1.2
muls - 1.15
half-giants - I think they are already okay.
Not currently. Human/elf/dwarf will be drawing from the same pool and having items sized if/as needed.
HG gear can already be found IG - with potentially more to come.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 14, 2019, 10:37:41 PM
New values + certain locations = hazardous?
Issues such as these are indeed being considered. At this moment, none of such items have been touched in such a way to cause a hazard.
Quote from: Cind on March 15, 2019, 01:03:20 AM
My pureblood human with above average wisdom and lower-end <advanced> leatherworking cannot turn a profit by working leather in Red Storm. You know, the leatherworking mechanic that pairs with the clothworking mechanic, where a person in Storm is supposed to be able to make a living by working the raw goods one shop sells, and turning them in to the warehouse. I think people know its broken, because I never see people turn in boots and gloves to the warehouse that accepts clothes and leather goods. With legacy merchants, it might have been a way to level up leatherworking so that it branches armormaking, which right now is one of the top ways to make money in the game. But its not actually being used as intended.
With boot and glove prices being as they are in the Storm shops, and the prices of the raw leather not being able to be realistically lowered that much, I think it would be fine if it just made a little money, as compared to clothworking that makes quite a bit if you put some work into it. Most of my humans that have tried, however, can't make net gain at the end of the day at advanced leatherworking. I know its not armor, but its probably related on the skill trees for a class or two.
While true we're not working on that particular portion as this very moment, I can assure you that every single item is being looked at and if it is found to be broken, out of order with intended targets and so on, it'll be changed.
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on March 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
I kind of hope the value-to-weight-to-quality balance feels more realistic.
That is to say.. something like this..
High weight + Good quality = moderate cost
High weight + Average quality = low cost
Average weight + Good quality = high cost
Average weight + Average quality = moderate cost
Low weight + Good quality = Highest cost
Low weight + Average quality = High cost
Weight = obviously how much it weighs
Quality = Protection/bonuses to things like camo or archery bracers
This wouldn't be something most (not all) items could obtain due to the nature of the materials. If it were high weight, chances are, it's strong/heavy materials such as horror/bahamet shell and thus offers a higher protection to the person, finally resulting in a higher cost.
Quote from: Shabago on March 15, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
Quote from: mansa on March 14, 2019, 10:04:26 PM
...
I have a question regarding Armor weight. Will there be race specific armor weights?
Primarily will weaker races get a slightly 'lighter' version of some armours?
And will some heavier races get some slightly 'heavier' version of the same armours?
I was thinking perhaps races could be adjusted by:
elves - 0.85
dwarves - 1.2
muls - 1.15
half-giants - I think they are already okay.
Not currently. Human/elf/dwarf will be drawing from the same pool and having items sized if/as needed.
HG gear can already be found IG - with potentially more to come.
Hey Shabago,
I guess I wasn't that clear. I didn't mean item specific, but more of a modification to how the game calculates the weight of an item based on the race wearing it.
So the armor items are all the same 'base' weight, but when an elf wears it the game could calculated it as 15% lighter, and if a dwarf wears it the game could calculates it as 25% heavier.
It all stems from this question:
If I have three copies of
a spiky bone breastplate and I've had it tailored to fit an average sized dwarf, an average sized human, and an average sized elf.
Would the breastplate tailored for the elf be heavier in weight than the one tailored for the dwarf?
Currently, yes.
Quote from: mansa on March 15, 2019, 09:02:48 PM
...
It all stems from this question:
If I have three copies of a spiky bone breastplate and I've had it tailored to fit an average sized dwarf, an average sized human, and an average sized elf.
Would the breastplate tailored for the elf be heavier in weight than the one tailored for the dwarf?
Quote from: Brokkr on March 15, 2019, 11:59:29 PM
Currently, yes.
I guess the next question is..
Should it?
For some reason
(I blame Tolkien) I have in my head that the armour Elves wear should be lighter than the armour Dwarves wear. In our game, elves have weaker strength than dwarves, so it seems that they are doubly penalized when wearing items.
(They can't carry as much weight, and the clothing they wear weighs more than other races)It appears that since Shabago is going through armours right now and adjusting them, it might be a good idea to also make a change on how armour weights are calculated for non-human races. In my opinion, if this is a change also warranted by game design, etc etc. #ElvesNeedLoveToo
Quote from: mansa on March 16, 2019, 12:44:37 AM
For some reason (I blame Tolkien) I have in my head that the armour Elves wear should be lighter than the armour Dwarves wear. In our game, elves have weaker strength than dwarves, so it seems that they are doubly penalized when wearing items. (They can't carry as much weight, and the clothing they wear weighs more than other races)
This is because of the "Size" attribute which is a combination of height and weight.
An example of this is an erdlu which is coded to only accept riders of a certain size otherwise they will not bear the weight of the rider - only this isn't exactly true as height seems to play a greater role in the size calculation than wight does and that erdlu will happily carry a short fat dwarf but will refuse to carry a tall half-elf who weighs much less than the dwarf.
Clothing is tailored to the "Size" attribute and so tall skinny people have a much bigger size than short fat people. The breastplate for an elf should be tall and narrow while the breastplate for a dwarf will be shorter but much wider. I think the weights after tailoring are too extremely different from each other.
I'd rather see an equation of inches in height and ten-stone dictate armor weight, rather than a singular size stat, unless that size stat is already dynamically derived from both character weight and height.
Now I don't know if this would cause the elf's armor to be heavier or not, but I don't think it matters, because the simple fact is that if there is more body to cover, the armor will weigh more. Yes, dwarves do weigh more, but they are also much shorter - I'm not at all certain that their armor shouldn't be lighter than an elf's by simple virtue of how much flesh there is to cover.
78X9 = 702: max height and weight human
96x8 = 768: max height and weight elf
58x10 = 580: max height and weight dwarf
* my numbers might off just a tad, but you get the idea.
But I'd be satisfied with a system that simply determined how much flesh had to be covered, and if the current size system does that appropriately, then leave it be.
Question for the coders hard at work here. Once you've made your changes will they apply to items currently in the game or just new versions afterwards?
eg #1: My obsidian breastplate weighs 20 stones and you've revamped them to weigh 35, is mine going to be the holy grail of obsidian breastplates?
eg #2: My used tattered loincloth smells of dust and sweat, but the new ones come with stank. Therefore I must run out and buy a fresh smelly used tattered loincloth?
Quote from: Bushranger on March 16, 2019, 01:43:55 AM
An example of this is an erdlu which is coded to only accept riders of a certain size otherwise they will not bear the weight of the rider - only this isn't exactly true as height seems to play a greater role in the size calculation than wight does and that erdlu will happily carry a short fat dwarf but will refuse to carry a tall half-elf who weighs much less than the dwarf.
Clothing is tailored to the "Size" attribute and so tall skinny people have a much bigger size than short fat people. The breastplate for an elf should be tall and narrow while the breastplate for a dwarf will be shorter but much wider. I think the weights after tailoring are too extremely different from each other.
See, I agree about the erdlue thing. Mounts should carry weight, not height. But gear is different. I think gear should include both height and weight into the equation, but, what's the equation?
Well, according to Google, when asked how much weight does height add:
Quote(A) rule of thumb is to allow 100 pounds for the first 5 feet of height (for women) and 105 pounds (for men). Then, add 4-6 pounds per inch of height above this base (women), and 5-7 pounds per inch (men).
Unfortunately, we've got a very odd weight system, in that we don't count individual pounds for PCs. So we've got to have a slightly different equation. Perhaps the size attribute for our characters already is that equation.
But I'd probably make sure mounts took into account weight, and not height, or, took height into much less consideration.
Just a quick note to tell you all that I'm still actively looking into this daily. In the interest of transparency and or honesty, certain aspects can't be answered yet. Not due to a 'We don't want you to know' but more a 'Discussions continue on items beyond armor at this time'.
What I can tell you at this stage, is we are not ignoring play-ability for the races, while also attempting to maintain realism.
Just give elves * 1.75 to their encumbrance because they got strong legs?
We are taking into account playability. But it may be a more "Elves should at least wear leather" type playability than a "elves should be able to wear a full set of scrab gear" type playability.
Quote from: Brokkr on March 18, 2019, 11:31:13 AM
We are taking into account playability. But it may be a more "Elves should at least wear leather" type playability than a "elves should be able to wear a full set of scrab gear" type playability.
This is good. Platemail elves bad.
Edit: For further elaboration, elf with average strength should probably be able to wear light leathers and carry around typical items in addition, or heavier leathers without additional weights, without suffering from encumbrance.
elf with very good strength should probably be able to wear some heavier leathers with their light leathers and carry around typical items in addition, or heavier leathers and a couple extra items, without suffering from encumbrance.
elf with high strength should probably be able to wear heavier leathers with typical items, and possibly look around for custom crafts of leather/studded hybrids for specific locations and carry typical items, without encumbrance.
Along with all this encumbrance mishegas -- It would be cool if heavier armor (plate, shell, scale) had various degrees of effect on your stamina. Whether that means lowering the maximum stamina (akin to how scan lowers your maximum stun) or just draining faster while in combat, it would sure change people's attitudes on armor in general. Similar to how certain armor raises your maximum stamina, and why that would be beneficial if traveling on foot or for long distances in the wastes.
I'd propose, in an ideal world where coding wasn't difficult and time consuming (And in part this is theory crafting, because some of this may already be true):
+Armor that is heavy duty (chitin/plate/scale) lowers your maximum stamina.
+Doing combat maneuvers (rescue/kick/bash/riposte/hack) drains your stamina faster in heavy armor.
+Heavy Armor is incredibly protective against even the strongest of blows. If damage is going to be greivous/unspeakable (say 40-60hp in one hit), the armor where it hits shatters and you receive reduced damage. The armor remains but is 'cracked/useless' Therefore, sustained injuries to the same area will result in full damage.
+Heavy Armor has a higher chance of deflecting missile weapons. If an arrow penetrates heavy armor, it does reduced damage, and the armor is more severely damaged.
+Medium/Light armor begins to scale up on the maximum stamina and reduce stamina loss.
+Bonuses might be added for certain armor against different damage types (piercing, slashing, etc.) that could perhaps even be assessed by an armor crafter/repair person (This armor appears well suited to defend against piercing weapons, this armor appears vulnerable to chopping weapons).
Questions I would love people to be forced to ask themselves:
Am I fighting / defending within a city, mainly? Do I keep a set of battle armor for major events? Do I wear the same suit of armor, all the damn time? If I'm out in the wastes, should I be wearing more breathable armor that keeps my body temperature down?
I'm always a bit leery of those 20-30+ day warriors that suddenly look like little Scrabs, decked out in plate and shell everywhere. I'm guilty of it too, because guess what, better armor saves lives. There should be a downside to wearing more protective armor, particularly in a harsh desert landscape like Zalanthas, mostly in the form of sacrificing your longevity in the field.
Side-note:
At one point, I tried to institute a Byn-wide ban on super-armor while training, and that most people had to wear simple leathers like mekillot sleeves and such. Heavy leather, but still moveable.
If you were a Trooper+, you could train in your Heavies to get used to a Lancer-like attack, etc etc.
I would be all for a distinct difference between the armors, such as what Veselka is saying. Light armor keeps you mobile, dodge tank-worthy, capable of advanced maneuvers and a hundred kicks until the end of the fight.
Plate armor? You're draining 2-3x the stamina now.
I wouldn't be opposed to a skill in No Armor/Light Armor/Medium/Heavy that assists with the intended DR of the armor, but that's an ideal Best Timeline.
I am just hoping that there becomes a real tactical decision between what armor you have. Heavy but Manageable in plate armor vs Light in cloth is almost no contest. Not being hit is far FAR superior to the potential DR of a heavy piece of armor.
Make a section in the Salaar shop just for half-giants.
There's some unused room in the bazaar, and a few weapons which are more than tiny daggers in their hands. Make a greatsword and a longsword, and a couple of sets of armor, one expensive and one cheap, and add that to the mix, and now the first few days of half-giant play are no longer a pain in the ass.
They are a disadvantaged and rare group, but a necessary part of the Arm and Byn, especially when out killing mekillots or something like that. I think a stall for them would be ICly justified.
I like Riev's idea of a light armor/heavy armor skill that increases both the Damage Reduction and lowers the weight of that armor type as the skill gets higher. Indicating one becoming proficient in both its defensive capabilities and used to the feel of it.
Then make skill caps based on race:(with possible caveats in main or sub-guild choices?)
Elves get higher light armor proficiency potential but lower or no heavy armor.
Humans/half-elves are mid in both.
Dwarves/mul/half-giants are low proficiency light amor and high heavy.
Quote from: Vox on March 19, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
I like Riev's idea of a light armor/heavy armor skill that increases both the Damage Reduction and lowers the weight of that armor type as the skill gets higher. Indicating one becoming proficient in both its defensive capabilities and used to the feel of it.
Then make skill caps based on race:(with possible caveats in main or sub-guild choices?)
Elves get higher light armor proficiency potential but lower or no heavy armor.
Humans/half-elves are mid in both.
Dwarves/mul/half-giants are low proficiency light amor and high heavy.
I feel as though there's a lot more to it, though. Leather shouldn't, even at elven mastery, have as much DR as a newbie dwarf in heavy armor. So how do you make it worthwhile to USE the light armor, unless light armor gives bonuses to defense (+2 for every 10 points, max of 60, or +12 to defense?).
Light armor = Max 60, Every 10 points provides +2 to natural defense
Medium armor = max 60, every 10 points provides +1 to natural defense, +1 to DR
Heavy armor = max 60, every 10 points provides 1.5 to DR (to max out at 9 flat DR for mastery)
I don't really see a need for more skills. I'd prefer a simpler system where armor gives a damage soak and slight natural defense penalty.
Light armor= Least Damage Soak, least penalty
Heavy= Highest Soak and highest penalty due to being wrapped up in heavy chitin or whatever.
The direction the work is taking is around the economy and secondarily the characteristics of the items themselves and making those consistent and have some logic across the item database. We aren't talking about code changes to how those items factor into different things such as combat, currently, because as noted this is primarily a project around the economy, not armor and its function.
The economy is.... something that hasn't been 'smoothed out' in 20 years or so now. I'd rather not wade into that fully.
As for this armor discussion:
Are we all aware that there ARE benefits/cons added to most of the armors in game that effect more than the weight already? (A lot of things being asked for, even)
This seems to be very nit picky and the player base ignores about 90% of what already exists. (Is it so bad to just expect someone to roleplay for now that they shouldn't wear full obsidian sets of armor as an elf while we solve other problems?)
I feel like this conversation has merit, yet it seems very unrealistic to actually consider, until the basics of how the economy will work can be put down and agreed upon.
Well, seeing as the economy is far more involved than armor prices and weights, but armor is the only focus right now, it seems appropriate to posit ideas surrounding the current topic.. Brokkr mentioned they aren't looking at code additions currently so let's file this away as just an idea, not sure why bringing it up is an issue.
Anyway, if they're only adjusting value and possibly weight while keeping a focus on playability then yes I'm also interested in seeing what the first round of adjustments look like to get a feel for what the direction will be.. until then, I still think the idea of specialized armor skills is cool, if they further reduced weight for you(which does not happen currently) as well as damage(currently related more to defense skill).
Bringing it up isn't an issue.
I type up a whole thing but, meh. Please carry on.
Quote from: Riev on March 19, 2019, 01:02:26 PM
I feel as though there's a lot more to it, though. Leather shouldn't, even at elven mastery, have as much DR as a newbie dwarf in heavy armor. So how do you make it worthwhile to USE the light armor, unless light armor gives bonuses to defense (+2 for every 10 points, max of 60, or +12 to defense?).
Light armor = Max 60, Every 10 points provides +2 to natural defense
Medium armor = max 60, every 10 points provides +1 to natural defense, +1 to DR
Heavy armor = max 60, every 10 points provides 1.5 to DR (to max out at 9 flat DR for mastery)
I like this.
We're just talking about stuff. I don't think anybody is bugging out about this - it's nice to have conversations about what if and how.
Bleeeegh. Armor-type skills. That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.
Personally I think it's a step in the right direction.
I'd rather have staff trying to make the economy work better than to have some of it how it is now.
There are some craft skills that can net you a metric ton of sids for little to no effort or risk of acquisition.
The only thing economically that I find disappointing is something happened to make salting much less profitable, however probably more in theme instead of having everyone be a salt baron.
Random update, end of week 1
449 items adjusted/updated or in some cases, discarded.
103 crafts added/reworked
Roughly 20 to 22% of the way through all armor items.
Quote from: Shabago on March 22, 2019, 08:02:36 PM
Random update, end of week 1
449 items adjusted/updated or in some cases, discarded.
103 crafts added/reworked
Roughly 20 to 22% of the way through all armor items.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif)
Good hustle.
I noticed that something my character wears is now wanted by 'rinth muggers, where it previously wasn't. Is this a consequence of these changes? The odd thing is that its apparent value (via the value skill) still falls far below what should be the limit. Value tells me the item is worth 33 coins, so I don't quite understand why it now gets me jumped by muggers.
I've also noticed that resizing a piece of armour has dramatically changed the value today by more than three times higher. The merchant I had bought it from is also offering as much as I paid for it to buy it back. I've bugged the item in game, I would suggest that you also bug the item so that staff can identify the exact item you're referring to Roon.
Quote from: Bushranger on March 22, 2019, 11:55:19 PM
I've also noticed that resizing a piece of armour has dramatically changed the value today by more than three times higher. The merchant I had bought it from is also offering as much as I paid for it to buy it back. I've bugged the item in game, I would suggest that you also bug the item so that staff can identify the exact item you're referring to Roon.
You had good timing on said item. Bought before the change, now worth more because of its ingredients. Coin to be made for you, Bushranger :)
Roon, you'd have to bug the item in game for me to know, as BR says. I've been trying to be cautious for any would-be rinth items, but it's possible one can sneak through with a missed label.
It's that time for another update (I'll do these weekly, I figure)
825 items adjusted/updated or in some cases discarded.
301 already in-game, updated or pending crafts
Roughly 40% of the way through armor.
Hey,
Thanks again for taking the time to do this!
There have been shell/chitin sleeves that weigh half that of leather. And half the grip with low strength character is the fact you often have to choose between a helmet and a waterskin. Gear is a cool aspect of the game so happy to see it getting looked at. I look forward to seeing what it looks like at the end. :)
1100 items adjusted/updated or in some cases discarded.
437 already in-game, updated or pending crafts
We're just about on that 50% mark done folks.
Will there be a listing, of which armors have been changed?
Specifically, the weights. The armor value and economic value are less important, but knowing which piece of armor we're wearing has caused our enc to shoot up, would be rather nice. Especially for elves and extremely young or old pcs.
I am hoping so, something, been wondering why my enc has been so crazy...totally forgot they are changing things.
A list isn't really doable, as it's quite literally every item that we have in game. If you wear armor at all, you can expect it to change - if it hasn't yet, it will over the next month or so.
As something of a tip off, the overhaul is also geared towards realism as much as it is balancing out our economy. Skinny, weak elves should not really be wearing all silt-horror or bahamet, for example. Your 'average' horror shell is pulling a weight of 80 stone (160 pounds for the sake of an even number) - Breastplates are normally half to whole shell crafts - Now factor in all your other assorted wear locations and, even with smaller portions of the shell to fit the smaller locations (wrist/neck) you're still looking at a minimum of two whole shells worth (320lbs).
Will a full suit of horror actually equal 320lbs worth in game? No. Play-ability is ever a factor.
Will you be struggling to wear a full suit of horror? Maybe. It depends on a number of factors.
Will a balance be possible to find, that both offers protection and reasonable weight balance? Absolutely.
That post is making me worried, since the logic is so faulty.
Keep in mind, a lot of armor is leather with shell bits stitched in on it, sort of thing. Not just a full shell.
I just hope after everything is finished. You'll take every race into account, make an approximate list of which armors that race would be able to normally wear and contemplate if that is how it should be.
Quote from: Shabago on April 08, 2019, 10:48:47 AM
A list isn't really doable, as it's quite literally every item that we have in game. If you wear armor at all, you can expect it to change - if it hasn't yet, it will over the next month or so.
As something of a tip off, the overhaul is also geared towards realism as much as it is balancing out our economy. Skinny, weak elves should not really be wearing all silt-horror or bahamet, for example. Your 'average' horror shell is pulling a weight of 80 stone (160 pounds for the sake of an even number) - Breastplates are normally half to whole shell crafts - Now factor in all your other assorted wear locations and, even with smaller portions of the shell to fit the smaller locations (wrist/neck) you're still looking at a minimum of two whole shells worth (320lbs).
Will a full suit of horror actually equal 320lbs worth in game? No. Play-ability is ever a factor.
Will you be struggling to wear a full suit of horror? Maybe. It depends on a number of factors.
Will a balance be possible to find, that both offers protection and reasonable weight balance? Absolutely.
The craft might need a full shell, but are you really going to fit most of that material into a breastplate? Aren't these things huge!? If you're not a half-giant, it seems safe to assume that most of that shell would end up tossed away, or used for other things that aren't your breastplate.
The heaviest sets of metal armor in the medieval ages were approximately 25kg.
If anything this is telling me you ought to be able to make a lot more sets of armor out of one silt horror then is currently possible. Or get several less heavy shells when you skin one.
If we were interested in realism afterall, of course. Nobody is fighting a battle wearing 320lbs of armor on top of their other equipment (weapons and supplies). It's even a stretch that a HG would be effective in what amounts to 6x the weight of the heaviest earth armor.
What Namino said.
I suggest people take a look at this video to see how maneuverable someone should be in a full set of plate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI&feature=youtu.be
You might notice my end points in the last post. Also, attempting to compare metal to anything Zalanthas is hardly going to work. A sea turtle can have a shell over a thousand pounds with 1.5 inch thickness and be (with knowledge) enough shell to cover a 6ft person head to toe.
I'm not about to make your horror shell 500 stone. Promise.
Quote from: Shabago on April 08, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
You might notice my end points in the last post. Also, attempting to compare metal to anything Zalanthas is hardly going to work. A sea turtle can have a shell over a thousand pounds with 1.5 inch thickness and be (with knowledge) enough shell to cover a 6ft person head to toe.
I spent several years researching sea turtles. Leatherbacks, the largest of the sea-turtles, have a total mean weight of about 850lbs, of which a tiny fraction is their shell, which isn't even that hard (hence their name). I think some truly exceptional Leatherbacks might almost get to 1,500lbs, but to suggest that they're 2/3rds shell is not accurate. The largest sea-turtle with a typical hard shell is the green turtle (
Chelonia mydas), which was my subject species, and their total weight rarely exceeds 700 pounds. I would imagine their shell wouldn't even account for a third of that total weight. Anyway, nitpicking aside.
An iron ore deposit can weigh several thousand tonnes, yet metal armor didn't exceed 25kg. The point being that the entirety of the raw material available doesn't have to be used in the end product. A silt horror (much bigger than a leatherback!) probably has a shell weighing up to a tonne, but it doesn't mean you're mandatorily converting one whole shell to one whole, one tonne, breastplate. In reality, you'd probably make 30-40 breastplates from that shell if you can find workable parts.
I understand you're already acknowledging this problem, Shabago, in the name of playability. However, it's also realistic to have armor from the silt horror shell that weighs far, far less (1/10th) the weight of the original shell. Conserving the weight (or even an appreciable fraction of it) between raw material -> finished product would be the truly unrealistic process.
Also, Because arm is old...we have encumbrance, but that is only handled by weight. IRL they are not the same thing, A Victorian silk dress and everything that goes with it might weigh 10lbs but certainly encumbers more then 80lbs of articulated plate armor.
Secondly, trying to say because a craft costs an entire shell you have to make a weight the same for the armor is rather...Um...silly? My bet is that more then half the crafts in game are more then ten years old and about 1/3 15+ years old. And back then there were and still are many crafts using a far more limited number of materials then exist today. So, that obsidian breastplate takes a large chunk of obsidian to craft but when you look at it, it says a leather shirt with obsidian plates and bone buckles.
Since all we have to represent encumbrance is weight then WHAT the item is, how it is engineered should matter more then the materials themselves should decide the weight and hence encumbrance. I assure you, articulated plate, Buckskin style leathers and hard armors that do not attach to each other (think Ancient rome) Are less encumbering then tight jeans and a tight silk shirt.
It takes only a few moments of research, youtube and such to see how unencumbering well engineered armor and other protective gear can be.
Also, humans make up most the population and are in control so most armor should be designed for them, yes, even and specially such high priced gear as horror. They cannot be any dumber then earth humans in the 12th century and would design gear easily usable by them, otherwise it is pointless.
And what about armor and gear designed by and for elves? They are almost all janky right now...weighted far over what any elf would ever design for himself or others of his tribe.
And armor actually designed for muls, half-giants and dwarves weighs more and protects less then it should. Will this be rebalanced as well? I mean 300lbs armor sure, I have no problem with that since only 3 races could wear it, but it should make them basically invulnerable to lesser attacks and beings.
That is how it used to work, and we fixed it. Not looking to go back.
If you use scrab shell for a human and a half giant breastplate, the assumption is that the thickness of the shell is the same, thus the actual protective value is the same.
So long as leather vests don't weigh as much as spiked shell armor anymore and we get some 1 or 2 pound leather sleeves I'll happy.
As there continues to be some concern as to how the pending armor updates will play out, especially with regards to the weight of items impacting encumbrance, we'd like to be all the more transparent on the factors feeding into this component of the armor updates.
First, we have taken the material types and created aligned categories of armor based on the material type and specific materials and craftsmanship that went into making the armor:
1) Cloth armor (Includes: linen, silk, sand-cloth, cotton)
2) Cheap leather armor
3) Wood/Bone armor
4) Leather Armor
5) Heavy leather/Studded armor
6) Cheap chitin/Obsidian armor
7) Chitin/Obsidian armor
8 ) Shell armor
9) Heavy shell armor
The further down this list your armor is, the more it will weigh. The further down this list your armor is, all other things being equal, the more it will protect you.
The amount that any particular piece of armor in general will weigh is impacted by the material category, which area of the body the armor is for and the size that the armor is tailored for. For an average sized human, unless a piece is made to specifically deviate from the norm, this would be:
Head
Neck
Arms
Wrist
Hands
Body
Legs
Feet
Waist
Shoulder
Ankle
Cloth
0.50
0.25
1.00
0.25
0.25
2.00
1.25
0.75
0.25
0.25
0.25
Cheap Leather
0.75
0.50
2.00
0.50
0.75
4.00
2.75
1.25
0.75
0.50
0.50
Wood/Bone
1.50
1.00
4.00
0.75
1.25
8.00
5.25
2.75
1.25
1.00
0.75
Leather
1.75
1.25
4.50
1.00
1.50
9.00
6.00
3.00
1.50
1.25
1.00
Heavy Leather/Studded
2.50
1.50
6.00
1.25
2.00
12.00
8.00
4.00
2.00
1.50
1.25
Cheap Chitin/Cheap Obsidian
2.75
1.75
6.75
1.25
2.25
13.50
9.00
4.50
2.25
1.75
1.25
Chitin/Obsidian
3.25
2.00
8.25
1.75
2.75
16.50
11.00
5.50
2.75
2.00
1.75
Shell
5.00
3.25
12.50
2.50
4.25
25.00
16.75
8.25
4.25
3.25
2.50
Heavy Shell
7.00
4.25
17.25
3.50
5.75
34.50
23.00
11.50
5.75
4.25
3.50
There are a few factors that cause deviation to the norm, whether it be whether that shell you have will make shell or heavy shell armor, or exactly how protective what you make will be. We will leave you to explore this IC'ly and come up with your own theories.
A maybe more readable version of stuff.
|
Head |
Neck |
Arms |
Wrist |
Hands |
Body |
Legs |
Feet |
Waist |
Shoulder |
Ankle |
Cloth |
0.50 |
0.25 |
1.00 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
2.00 |
1.25 |
0.75 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
Cheap Leather |
0.75 |
0.50 |
2.00 |
0.50 |
0.75 |
4.00 |
2.75 |
1.25 |
0.75 |
0.50 |
0.50 |
Wood/Bone |
1.50 |
1.00 |
4.00 |
0.75 |
1.25 |
8.00 |
5.25 |
2.75 |
1.25 |
1.00 |
0.75 |
Leather |
1.75 |
1.25 |
4.50 |
1.00 |
1.50 |
9.00 |
6.00 |
3.00 |
1.50 |
1.25 |
1.00 |
Heavy Leather/Studded |
2.50 |
1.50 |
6.00 |
1.25 |
2.00 |
12.00 |
8.00 |
4.00 |
2.00 |
1.50 |
1.25 |
Cheap Chitin/Cheap Obsidian |
2.75 |
1.75 |
6.75 |
1.25 |
2.25 |
13.50 |
9.00 |
4.50 |
2.25 |
1.75 |
1.25 |
Chitin/Obsidian |
3.25 |
2.00 |
8.25 |
1.75 |
2.75 |
16.50 |
11.00 |
5.50 |
2.75 |
2.00 |
1.75 |
Shell |
5.00 |
3.25 |
12.50 |
2.50 |
4.25 |
25.00 |
16.75 |
8.25 |
4.25 |
3.25 |
2.50 |
Heavy Shell |
7.00 |
4.25 |
17.25 |
3.50 |
5.75 |
34.50 |
23.00 |
11.50 |
5.75 |
4.25 |
3.50 |
Thanks for the transparency Brokkr.
Note that the last two, shoulder and ankle, aren't really armor spots, since you don't get hit there, but folks have over time made armor for them so we included them.
These are good posts. Are the units in stones?
Wow wood-bone is less protective than leather? Would have though it would be just higher than chitin.
Yes, stones.
Quote from: Dresan on April 11, 2019, 02:49:37 PM
Wow wood-bone is less protective than leather? Would have though it would be just higher than chitin.
I would think that it depends on the wood, but its always been a light alternative in the Tuluki Legions to allow for maximum maneuverability with their artsy-fartsy combat.
However... styrax is supposedly hard to work, and agafari (at least in dark sun) is incredibly protective if thick enough.
I know they can't comment, but I'd be fine with like... leather is good for bludgeoning and piercing, but bone and wood is better against slashing and chopping.
I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.
Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.
Huh. My brain is confused by how leather is heavier than wood/bone armor...and also more protective. Weird stuff. I'd never ever ever have assumed that.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
Note that the last two, shoulder and ankle, aren't really armor spots, since you don't get hit there, but folks have over time made armor for them so we included them.
Hey Brokkr,
Maybe you already checked it out, but characters wear two wrists, ankles, and shoulder items.
And they wear one gloves, feets items.
It looks like if you wear two wrists it can weigh 7 stone but if you wear one hands it's 5.75
That is taken into account?
Not sure what you mean. it is per item.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 04:03:15 PM
Not sure what you mean. it is per item.
Right, but I would wear two wrist items and would wear one hand item.
I wouldn't wear two wrist items AND two hand items
I have no idea what you are getting at.
The last two (i.e. shoulder and ankle), don't provide protection as armor because they aren't hit locations. It is irrelevant whether you wear one or two, and has nothing to do with hand or wrist locations.
Do you mean that the single "gloves" or "boots" item actually contains 2 items, virtually?
Quote from: Feco on April 11, 2019, 04:26:22 PM
Do you mean that the single "gloves" or "boots" item actually contains 2 items, virtually?
This.
If I wear a cloth bracer on my right wrist and my left wrist it's .5 (.25 + .25). If I wear a glove on my left hand and my right hand, it's .25 because they're one item. I think that's fine. When I think bracers I think of like the whole forearm so they should be heavier than just gloves, non e vero?
Edit: It does look like this is partially accounted for at heavier armor, so it looks like this is already being done? The hand weight scales up faster than wrist weight.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 04:24:57 PM
I have no idea what you are getting at.
The last two (i.e. shoulder and ankle), don't provide protection as armor because they aren't hit locations. It is irrelevant whether you wear one or two, and has nothing to do with hand or wrist locations.
Shoulder and Ankle don't appear to be at discussion.
I think Mansa is saying that, item wise, you wear two wrist items, but gloves only have one item, so far as weight is concerned.
He may have been wondering if that was taken into account with the weight distribution, because should two wrists be twice as heavy as one glove item? Should glove items, that IN GAME are covering both hands be heavier?
Quote from: Riev on April 11, 2019, 04:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 04:24:57 PM
I have no idea what you are getting at.
The last two (i.e. shoulder and ankle), don't provide protection as armor because they aren't hit locations. It is irrelevant whether you wear one or two, and has nothing to do with hand or wrist locations.
Shoulder and Ankle don't appear to be at discussion.
I think Mansa is saying that, item wise, you wear two wrist items, but gloves only have one item, so far as weight is concerned.
He may have been wondering if that was taken into account with the weight distribution, because should two wrists be twice as heavy as one glove item? Should glove items, that IN GAME are covering both hands be heavier?
Again, I think bracers are proportionally quite a bit bigger than gauntlets. At higher weight classes, hand armor starts catching up ratio-wise to wrist armor, but never exceeds it, which makes sense to me.
Your hands are a lot smaller than your forearms. I know the wearloc is 'wrist' but if you look at pictures of bracers, they cover a lot more than that.
Quote from: Feco on April 11, 2019, 04:26:22 PM
Do you mean that the single "gloves" or "boots" item actually contains 2 items, virtually?
Yeah..
Let's see if I can describe it better:
This is the currently outline
Head
Neck
Arms
Wrist
Hands
Body
Legs
Feet
Waist
Shoulder
Ankle
But it really should be this:
Head
Neck
Arms
Left Wrist
Right Wrist Hands
Body
Legs
Feet
Waist
Left Shoulder
Right Shoulder
Left Ankle
Right AnkleWhereas, in my opinion, each of the ankle, shoulder, and wrist armor pieces should have their weight
and armor class halved.
For
HEAVY SHELL items:
Wrists -
3.50 1.75
Hands - 5.75
(Or, adjusted slightly different, OR MAYBE IT ALREADY HAS BEEN TAKEN THAT INTO ACCOUNT)
Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.
Quote from: th3kaiser on April 11, 2019, 04:49:24 PM
Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.
It's not the armor, it's the weight. If you look at someone you might see:
<hands> a pair of leather gloves
<right wrist> a leather bracer
<left wrist> a leather bracer
Each wrist needs a separate bracer, but the hands are covered by a single item. Mansa is suggesting bracers should weigh less because they're independent like this. I think the numbers make sense as they are, because a bracer is bigger than a glove.
Yup, I completely got that. He also said halve the armor value.
Quote from: Namino on April 11, 2019, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: th3kaiser on April 11, 2019, 04:49:24 PM
Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.
It's not the armor, it's the weight. If you look at someone you might see:
<hands> A pair of leather gloves
<right wrist> a leather bracer
<left wrist> a leather bracer
Each wrist needs a separate bracer, but the hands are covered by a single item. Mansa is suggesting bracers should weigh less because they're independent like this. I think the numbers make sense as they are, because a bracer is bigger than a glove.
Quote from: th3kaiser on April 11, 2019, 04:49:24 PM
Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.
Yeah, forget armor class, I don't know the math. Let's just talk about weight. I'll go edit my post.
Got ya. Already taken into account. It looks a bit wonky on the lighter item end simply because of increments and rounding.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 05:27:20 PM
Got ya. Already taken into account. It looks a bit wonky on the lighter item end simply because of increments and rounding.
Thanks exactly what I wanted to hear!
Quote from: Dresan on April 11, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.
Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.
I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are. They are seriously weak.
For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).
On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.
Nomination for thread of the year.
Queue elf fan outrage in 3... 2... 1...
Unconvinced about weights as they seem heavy still (remember stones=kg, not lbs) but I also trust the amount of thought and debate that likely went into deciding on it. I'm sure if it turns out to be too much it'll be tweaked.
Well, it is mostly comparable. The old game was finding stuff someone made that was significantly better in terms of weight. The trade off was you had no idea how well it protected you. Seriously, the old values were really really random.
Now you should know the weight is fairly consistent and the protection is fairly consistent and you can make choices on what you want to prioritize.
I have to say, that this is WAYYYY more transparent of a game than it was even three years ago.
I remember any conversation about code beyond command syntax was immediately shut down and moderated, then you'd get a nasty request from whomever.
Now they are literally laying out weights, what's more protective and all that shit. Fucking bravo. I think that steps like this, transparent understanding of code, or at least being able to talk about it without getting in trouble is a step that will see the game regain old players.
Keep up the good work, and keep telling us about it.
Quote from: th3kaiser on April 11, 2019, 03:30:20 PM
Huh. My brain is confused by how leather is heavier than wood/bone armor...and also more protective. Weird stuff. I'd never ever ever have assumed that.
I can see mak hide being heavier then bone.
Im pretty sure I read somewhere that elves specifically design a lot of their own crafts with elf strength in mind, IE, there /NEEDS/ to be a separate classification for shells, bones, and leathers in regards to elves.
In the past (and semi-currently), elves could purchase equipment (such as dujat shell breastplates/helmets), and their weight wouldn't be extraordinary as they were crafted with the thought that the equipment is meant for elves. Now, with this change, a lot of this equipment that was crafted just for elves, would be weighted so high that only a dwarf or AI strength human could wear it effectively.
Is there any plan to not completely shit on elven QoL for the equipment that was specifically designed for them? Maybe make it something similar to mantis-armor, where only an elf can equip that equipment, to keep other races from getting somewhat-equally effective, lighter armor.
Quote from: Cabooze on April 11, 2019, 08:23:15 PM
Maybe make it something similar to mantis-armor, where only an elf can equip that equipment, to keep other races from getting somewhat-equally effective, lighter armor.
This is one solution. There's also the typical solution most well balanced games use:
Give heavier armor diminishing returns (ie, going from no armor to 10 stone of armor is a big change, going from 50 stone of armor to 60 stone is meh, and going from 70 stone to 80 hardly makes any difference). This is also a protection against min-maxing by the way, which Brokkr has suggested is a huge issue. You can max, sure, but it doesn't give you as much. Elves only being able to wear armor 1/2 as heavy as humans becomes less of an issue when it's still 75% as effective due to diminishing returns on the half they can't get. Then all you have to do is make average elven agility 25% more effective than average human agility in regards to damage reduction with a similar diminishing returns at excess agility, and viola. Strength/agility balance in combat (at least on the defensive end).
Just chipping in I'm very glad this area is being reviewed. Armor weights were definitely too high, especially relative to the weak races / low strength roll humans and what protected well vs what didn't was a bit too erudite. These things being addressed is great.
I will say I'd much, much rather the most protective tier of armor be restricted by wealth and prowess and not weight. Simply not giving the unwashed masses access is in theme, and making it cost a boat to buy and keep is a good economy sink.
Heavy armor was and is the game changer for we humans because it isn't rendering one unable to move well. Rather, that it took intense time and labor to deploy in lower tech environments. Only the big shots had that resource to do heavy armor with.
P.S.
We had several types of armor in our own time line that can be replicated in Zalanthas absent metal and still nearly as protective. They were expensive, hard to make, and 'heavy' armors too. But if you hit someone wearing them with a sword(or even arrows), nothing happened.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 06:00:24 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 11, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.
Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.
I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are. They are seriously weak.
For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).
On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.
Wow~ I did underestimate how shitty it currently is... that does indeed suck.
Though it seems to me it not only has to do with elf strength but probably more the effects of size on gear weight. As an elf with smaller size can clearly pull off quite a bit more armor with just decent strength.
Perhaps this will mean max height/max weight character's won't be as common anymore. :-X
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 06:00:24 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 11, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.
Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.
I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are. They are seriously weak.
For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).
On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.
I am very, very happy that this is a project being worked on by staff.
This is my only question / concern about these changes: I can see that you've taken into account racial strength (average and strongest) with wearing armour which is good but no PC ever just wears armour. At the very least they would carry weapons (a medium sized weapon like a sword or club or two small weapons like two daggers) and possibly a small backup weapon. They would probably also have a little bit of water, a bit of food and a couple of miscellaneous doodahs that most everyone has like a mount ticket, a few coins and a backpack.
When testing how much armour a PC can wear and how much encumbrance that would be was there consideration given to this?
It's great if an average strength human could wear regular leather armour and remain light but could they pick up an average sword and still remain light or would a simple weapon push them into easily manageable?
My example above is with the new weights...under the old system, who knows what your weight would have been. It is likely there will be cases where the weight of your armor is heavier. This project isn't about making it easier to wear heavier armor, it is about making things consistent and in doing so more thematic.
"Elf" stuff tended to be way overpowered, but inconsistent. Take the dujat-shell breastplate someone mentioned. It weighed 4 stone. Looking at other items with the same amount of protection for the same body spot, some are chitin. Some are leather. The lowest weighted one was 0.75 stones. The highest weighted one was 16.5 stones. Instead of thinking things through and being like...huh, maybe elves would try to minimize chitin/shell/heavy stuff to the most critical uses and use lighter stuff like leather for most stuff, someone just replicated chitin armor with a lower weight, despite it not really making a realistic or consistent item. We are moving away from that. Elves may need to make some logical choices for their physical limitations.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 10:21:22 PM
My example above is with the new weights...under the old system, who knows what your weight would have been. It is likely there will be cases where the weight of your armor is heavier. This project isn't about making it easier to wear heavier armor, it is about making things consistent and in doing so more thematic.
"Elf" stuff tended to be way overpowered, but inconsistent. Take the dujat-shell breastplate someone mentioned. It weighed 4 stone. Looking at other items with the same amount of protection for the same body spot, some are chitin. Some are leather. The lowest weighted one was 0.75 stones. The highest weighted one was 16.5 stones. Instead of thinking things through and being like...huh, maybe elves would try to minimize chitin/shell/heavy stuff to the most critical uses and use lighter stuff like leather for most stuff, someone just replicated chitin armor with a lower weight, despite it not really making a realistic or consistent item. We are moving away from that. Elves may need to make some logical choices for their physical limitations.
The idea behind something weighing so little, is so that it was a viable option for elves to actually wear. Instead of making the items made by elves, for elves, weigh as much as human/dwarf counterpart crafts, why not reduce their protectiveness? Why not add a tag that can be put on "elf" armor that refers to an 'if, else' script, to make it so any other race is unable to wear that armor.
IE:
elf_armor
if is race elf
return cmd_wear
else if not race elf
return echo "This is not designed to fit you".
fiNot sure how the game code is written, but this is just an example of something that could be done (with assumptions made about the code-base).
With the way this is being approached, you're basically telling anyone that wants to consider playing an elf: "You either need to wear shitty armor nearly equivalent to normal clothing that makes you easy to kill, not that you were already easy to kill to begin with... Or live life at VERY heavy encumbrance." (especially since this change doesnt take into account other weight values that players have to deal with, IE, weapons, backpack, belt, coins.... Having more than one weapon is going to become an ordeal for elves, now, unless all they do is stick to tiny 1 stone daggers, assuming they want to be wearing something other than cloth or low-tier leathers.)
It was (and is) already hard to play an elf competitively. This is just going to make it nigh impossible to survive most situations that elves see themselves getting into.
What would the point be of making special elf chitin armor that was somehow lighter and less protective, that would end up heavier and no more protective than leather armor?
Well, of course it would need to be fitting somewhere in the middle of those two things. I suppose I am rather inept at getting my point across so I apologize if I'm at all being ridiculous in my concerns.
Not at all. It is simply that you aren't privy to all the back-end information that we are. I'm trying to give context why from our viewpoint it may not make sense.
We could go through all this effort to make armor that is....equivalent to armor you already have. Or you could just get high end armor that you would already have access to. It seems a lot of work on our side for little benefit other than to let elves wear chitin all over?
Brokkr, I am still stuck on bone/wood being lighter then leather.
I mean, from the mdescs I have looked at, the number of bone scale jackets that say they are made of only bone is basically 0.
Instead it is, "lots of thin bone scales attached to a heavy leather jacket".
The same applies to wood for a vast majority of items. A wood splint vest is a leather vest with wood splints.
A bone helm has a leather cap/liner inside.
Yet a leather cap is...um, a leather cap...etc etc.
So, I guess the question is....how are the values being assigned? By like assess return values "primarily made of leather" Or sdesc/mdesc "A bone scaled hauberk"?
Because if assigned by what assess says, I can see myself and others bugging a LOT of gear.
Heck, I am just looking over some items, and now that it matters I can see bugging...well, lets show for a moment.
Made from the scaly hide of jozhals, this glove shimmers when hit by
sunlight. The skin from these highly intelligent animals not only reflect
sunlight but are also fairly comfortable after they have been treated
properly. Such gloves are usually worn by nobility or the wealthy.
ass gloves
You assess a dusty pair of jozhal hide gloves...
...it is primarily made of skin.
l boots
These boots are made from the naturally supple hide of a jozhal,
shimmering with the countless colors involved in the creature's natural
camouflage. They are made to fit snugly, and reach mid-calf. They are
fitted with a sole made of sturdy hide, and appear solidly made all around,
likely for functional, yet comfortable use.
ass boots
You assess a dusty pair of supple, jozhal-hide boots...
...it is primarily made of leather.
Now, by mdesc these are made of the same thing, yet in assess they are different, one has the item material skin...which I have no idea where that is on your list, cheap leather? And the other has the item material leather.
But they really should be the same.
I have more, but will leave it for now.
While Brokkr may wish to weigh in further X-D:
Items are based upon their 'primary' material first, then adjusted depending on additions. IE: A studded leather vest will be material leather, but placed into the 'heavy-leather' category due to the studding.
As a general request, rather then aimed at you directly, please hold off on bugging items until I've finished adjusting all of the items. The made of 'skin' or made of 'duskhorn' etc are no longer valid categories that I'm changing over to the new system as I go.
*ETA - there won't be any fresh items added to the previous update from last week of the 1100 items this week. With the adjustments, and going back to look over certain items with code changes/releases, I'm playing catch up.
How about armor for back-slot like backplates? What's their set up in all of this? Shields? Did I miss that anywhere, or was it implied?
Quote from: ABoredLion on April 14, 2019, 12:30:53 AM
How about armor for back-slot like backplates? What's their set up in all of this? Shields? Did I miss that anywhere, or was it implied?
I just assumed, it was a flavor thing.
I've used MASTER backstab on people, who wore backplates and shields, and it didn't help them any. Never seen npcs attack back, or anything hit the back, so I think it's just for flavor.
I was more talking like their chosen 'weight' numbers for material type, and the scaling, as shown for other item location/material composition set up.
Quote from: Vex on April 14, 2019, 04:40:39 PM
Quote from: ABoredLion on April 14, 2019, 12:30:53 AM
How about armor for back-slot like backplates? What's their set up in all of this? Shields? Did I miss that anywhere, or was it implied?
I just assumed, it was a flavor thing.
I've used MASTER backstab on people, who wore backplates and shields, and it didn't help them any. Never seen npcs attack back, or anything hit the back, so I think it's just for flavor.
Stabbing weapons hit the back when they critical, not sure I've ever seen it on a conscious person though.
Quote from: Shabago on April 11, 2019, 02:29:25 PM
As there continues to be some concern as to how the pending armor updates will play out, especially with regards to the weight of items impacting encumbrance, we'd like to be all the more transparent on the factors feeding into this component of the armor updates.
First, we have taken the material types and created aligned categories of armor based on the material type and specific materials and craftsmanship that went into making the armor:
1) Cloth armor (Includes: linen, silk, sand-cloth, cotton)
2) Cheap leather armor
3) Wood/Bone armor
4) Leather Armor
5) Heavy leather/Studded armor
6) Cheap chitin/Obsidian armor
7) Chitin/Obsidian armor
8 ) Shell armor
9) Heavy shell armor
The further down this list your armor is, the more it will weigh. The further down this list your armor is, all other things being equal, the more it will protect you.
The amount that any particular piece of armor in general will weigh is impacted by the material category, which area of the body the armor is for and the size that the armor is tailored for. For an average sized human, unless a piece is made to specifically deviate from the norm, this would be:
Head
Neck
Arms
Wrist
Hands
Body
Legs
Feet
Waist
Shoulder
Ankle
Hey Shabago,
It looks great. However, it would be wonderful to be reassured on the typical fantasy picture I have in my head of elves.
When I picture an elf, usually a Tolkien version as that's most popular in the fantasy trope, I never think of them in full plate / shell armor. I usually picture them like Legolas, wearing leathers and being very agile. So here's the question:
What is the encumbrance of an averaged strength elf if they are decked out in 5) Heavy Leather?Decked out is :
- two bone swords
- a bow
- a quiver with 5 arrows
- a backpack with average supplies (rations, waterskin, 300 coins, spice)
- heavy leather worn:
- Head
- Neck
- Arms
- Wrist
- Hands
- Body
- Legs
- Feet
In my mind, I would say that their encumbrance is in the 'manageable' level. Leathers/Bone/Wood would be in 'easily manageable'
It wouldn't be in the 'Very Heavy' levels. If an elf was wearing shells, obsidian, or something like that, I think it would definitely be in the heavy area.
Can I play out this fantasy picture of an elf that I have in my head?
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 06:00:24 PM
I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are. They are seriously weak.
For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).
On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.
You are probably underestimating how heavy the heavy leather is. Think skins like inix or salt worm that are thick and heavy. Or mixed types with studs and leather. You typical Tolkein elf is probably in just leather, not heavy leather.
Legolas probably wasn't even wearing leather in all slots, if I remember the books/movies correctly. More a mix of leather in some slots and nothing/cloth in others. (nothing on his head, I don't remember him with leather sleeves, or any neck protection, etc).
I'm assuming the lack of armor/ability to wear it is also countered by their increased agility and ability to dodge.
Seems legit.
Encumbrance
1. a burden or impediment
How many of you staffers who are working on this project have A: worn REAL armor, not costume, not period theatre etc, But the real deal, made totally to period specs? B: Have done more then cursory research on the matter?
I am having issues with the fact that the answers I keep seeing from staff point to never and almost none.
The fact that Arm only has the one way to represent encumbrance is problematic as I see staff also only referring to that one thing. Yet IRL 80lbs of well crafted articulated boiled waxed leather is going to encumber FAR less then 40lbs of tied on hides and protect better as well.
Next, I do not think any of you have an idea how little fitted armors actually do encumber. As in, you really do not notice the difference in 50lbs of stiff leather and 80lbs leather backed bronze.
Figure out a way to translate the quality of the craft into the weight/encumbrance and you will be doing better service then simply the weight of what it is made of.
I mean, anybody ever played hockey or football..rode dirtbike? All quality armors that weight from 40-80lbs depending and yet people walk around in riding leather/armor all day long without issue...do amazing things in football and hockey agility and endurance wise. And don't be bringing that modern material argument either...if all we are talking about is weight=encumbrance then 40lbs is 40lbs.
I can understand heavy leather being out for elves but even regular leather is pretty heavy on your average elf.
The problem isn't just weight and strength of an elf but weight/strength plus additional weight on gear for size. It just feels like a bit much when average weapons can weight 6 stones and you sometimes need those weapons damages to overcome poor strength.
Also shields right now are kinda in need of some variance but probably something for players to fix over time. There needs to be more wood/leather or bone framed leather shields in the game especially in the south where bone, leather and chitin should be more plentiful vs just wood.
The dark brown elven woman is using: (With average str)
<on head> a black leather helmet
<around neck> a thick, triangle-embossed leather gorget
<slung across back> a scorched horn bow
<across back> a leather backpack
<on torso> a brilliant, golden-scale breastplate
<on arms> a pair of bark-plated, carru-hide sleeves
<as belt> a glossy leather belt
<hung from belt> a curved, black-chitin sword
<hung from belt> a curved, black-chitin sword
<around body> a dark, hooded cloak
<about waist> a gwoshi hide quiver (x 5 arrows)
<on legs> a pair of black-moon-emblazoned leather and bone leggings
<on feet> a pair of sturdy leather boots
exa pack
This backpack is simple, yet functional, made more for utilitarian purpose
than for show. It is little more than a large leather sack with two adjusting
straps to fit over the arms and a flap to hold things in. The leather is dusty
and old, and probably has seen better days.
In a leather backpack (used) :
a pile of coins x304
a waterskin - full
a few strips of dried beetle meat
You are carrying 36 stones weight, which is easily manageable.
How good a pack is at managing weight should be included in its assess. Weight reduction on containers are not created equal.
@Shabago
And she is light? Guessing her pack is empty too? No waterskin, some food, cures,etc. And her size is just average for an elf?
Also assuming those are bad leathers too. She is missing bracers, gloves and perhaps something for the waist but suppose she can live without some armor. :(
She's at easily manageable.
Plus the cloak seems to have covered the fact they have bracers and a belt on as well. The pack isn't empty? Nor is the quiver. Scroll the window.
Sample two:
Same elfy, same average strength.
In a reinforced green sandcloth backpack (used) :
a pile of allanaki coins (x300)
a white cloth bandage
a knot of black, viscous spice
a few thick, meaty steaks
a waterskin (full)
In a sinew-tied bone slat quiver (used) :
several green-fletched, obsidian-headed arrows (ten of them)
eq
You are using:
<on head> a jade-plumed black helmet
<around neck> a golden-brown carru leather gorget
<slung across back> a duskhorn recurve bow
<across back> a reinforced green sandcloth backpack
<on torso> an amber-dyed leather vest
<on arms> a supple pair of earthy leather sleeves
<around right wrist> a supple, earthy leather bracer
<around left wrist> a supple, earthy leather bracer
<on hands> a pair of white-dyed braxat-hide gloves
<as belt> a scarlet-buckled leather belt
<hung from belt> a blackened jagged-edged scimitar
<about waist> a sinew-tied bone slat quiver
<on legs> a pair of amber-dyed leather leggings
<on feet> a pair of carru leather boots
You are carrying 33 stones weight, which is easily manageable.
While I'm at it - UPDATE!
1,300 items adjusted/updated or discarded.
QuoteYou are carrying 36 stones weight
I wish we could get this information and be able to tell how much we are carrying more accurately, maybe tied to the value skill?
A number of elves (and classes) will need to remain light not easily manageable which is half the problem. Heck, if stealth is your bread and butter I even feel there is a difference between no problem and light but I digress.
All in all, I am accepting of the encumbrance limitations based on gear weight and strength. However, I still believe that size/weight increases to gear is too punishing for elves. If size increased the just minimum value of strength/endurance for races than that would be perfectly fine, good trade off. But while i admit that perhaps I don't fully understand all the bonus for size other than perhaps some related to combat in the helpfiles, i just feel in many cases it is unwarranted. I would be happy to stand corrected in this though.
If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?
Quote from: Brokkr on April 29, 2019, 12:56:03 AM
If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?
Because of all the hide gear that's not cloth?
Because IRL cloth is actually noisier then leather?
I mean...alright, some types of leather are a bit squeaky. But many types are way quieter then fabric.
"says the hunter with the buckskin hunting outfit"
Quote from: Brokkr on April 29, 2019, 12:56:03 AM
If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?
Interestingly enough, it was only recently that I noticed that the premier city sneaky set, which for the longest time I thought was ultra light gear...was actually heavy gear. Perhaps this should be changed leather at least?
Glad the desert version is sand-cloth at least. That said I believe with the weights established over time players will create new sets to fill niches.
There's a lot of the outdoor sneak-gear thats leather, but the sandcloth one is good too
This is an upside to playing shorter characters (or a disadvantage to making them max height). They are easier to bash and all, but can carry around a bit more crap at the same strength level because their armor is a size or two below those with max height.
Quote from: X-D on April 28, 2019, 01:57:55 PMHow many of you staffers who are working on this project have A: worn REAL armor, not costume, not period theatre etc, But the real deal, made totally to period specs?
::)
Verisimilitude is far more important in a roleplaying game and a video game then realism. You might not like how the game is coded or how armor is represented. But demanding that staff have your specific knowledge (I'm not saying whether or not your knowledge is correct, simply that it is yours) in order to work on any part of the game is the height of hubris. So long as the game is clear as to how it works and why it works that way, that is far more important then how realistic it is.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 29, 2019, 12:56:03 AM
If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?
Sneaking in cloth is a do or die tactic. If you're doing it in a dangerous area and fail your sneak check you die.
Realism has importance. When mechanics are obfuscated, you should be able to fall back on "realism" to guide your choices. This is a common staff response to people asking about hidden mechanics, after all.
The most realistic change to combat/armor would be a stamina cost for every round you're in combat. The amount drained would factor in armor, encumbrance, weapon weight, and temperature. At low/zero stamina you would start incurring combat penalties.
I don't think this would be a very fun change, though.
Quote from: John on April 29, 2019, 06:53:23 AM
If you're doing it in a dangerous area and fail your sneak check you die.
If it is that dangerous for you, doubt your leather armor is going to save you either.
I've played several sneaks that had the raw offense and power to fight their way out of certain situations. I've also been in situations where if I was in pure cloth, I probably would have died.
I don't understand why you are so combative over this.
The damage reduction from a leather helmet/shell gorget is enough to keep my ass alive enough to run away/kill a half-giant who's just hit the shit out of me (Or perhaps a drov beetle/something else in the wild).
Then change the word John. Get rid of encumbrance and change it to load or weight. And it still should make some sort of sense...as it sits...with what staff is saying it makes little sense. This Armor which is described as several layers of hide tied to your person encumbers less then the svelte boiled leather...Why, because one is skin and the other is leather.
Also, I have a question for staff. Are items actually going to show as "Heavy leather" or "light leather" Or "leather" (assuming that is medium) in assess or are they just going to be leather and we have to guess where it might fall?
Quote from: X-D on April 29, 2019, 09:31:16 PMAnd it still should make some sort of sense...as it sits...with what staff is saying it makes little sense.
Armor makes plenty of sense to tabletop gamers. That's what Armageddon is descended from after all. Anyone whose familiar with tabletop RPGs will be completely familiar with how encumberance works in Armageddon. So while you might say it doesn't make sense, that is by no means a universal viewpoint.
Quote from: John on April 29, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 29, 2019, 09:31:16 PMAnd it still should make some sort of sense...as it sits...with what staff is saying it makes little sense.
Armor makes plenty of sense to tabletop gamers. That's what Armageddon is descended from after all. Anyone whose familiar with tabletop RPGs will be completely familiar with how encumberance works in Armageddon. So while you might say it doesn't make sense, that is by no means a universal viewpoint.
Armor in D&D, the most popular and traditional tabletop, doesn't work this way though. Your carry weight is your str score x 15. For someone with average str (10), that's 150 pounds before you're encumbered and suffer any penalties. Plate armor in that game weighs 65lbs, meaning even relatively weak people can have plate armor in their inventories without the slightest difficulty. Hell, a moderately strong dude (str 13) can hoist up three full sets of platemail before he's penalized.
However, there are independent checks to see the sort of armor you can wear outside of what you can simply carry in your inventory. You need str 15 to wear plate. It's a decoupling of carry weight/armor proficiency pre-requisites that allows for people to carry reasonable amounts of weight in their inventory without making it so anyone can wear heavy armor. Armageddon double-dips by trying to make encumberance pull two shifts -- carry weight is applying penalties and that has to work for armor too, because there's no independent armor vs str check. And the only way to make that single system do both jobs is to make armor weigh unrealistic amounts.
Quote from: Namino on April 29, 2019, 10:50:37 PM
Quote from: John on April 29, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 29, 2019, 09:31:16 PMAnd it still should make some sort of sense...as it sits...with what staff is saying it makes little sense.
Armor makes plenty of sense to tabletop gamers. That's what Armageddon is descended from after all. Anyone whose familiar with tabletop RPGs will be completely familiar with how encumberance works in Armageddon. So while you might say it doesn't make sense, that is by no means a universal viewpoint.
Armor in D&D, the most popular and traditional tabletop, doesn't work this way though. Your carry weight is your str score x 15. For someone with average str (10), that's 150 pounds before you're encumbered and suffer any penalties. Plate armor in that game weighs 65lbs, meaning even relatively weak people can have plate armor in their inventories without the slightest difficulty. Hell, a moderately strong dude (str 13) can hoist up three full sets of platemail before he's penalized.
However, there are independent checks to see the sort of armor you can wear outside of what you can simply carry in your inventory. You need str 15 to wear plate. It's a decoupling of carry weight/armor proficiency pre-requisites that allows for people to carry reasonable amounts of weight in their inventory without making it so anyone can wear heavy armor. Armageddon double-dips by trying to make encumberance pull two shifts -- carry weight is applying penalties and that has to work for armor too, because there's no independent armor vs str check. And the only way to make that single system do both jobs is to make armor weigh unrealistic amounts.
I've actually never found a problem with weight, not as a real human, at least.
You can wear a full set of armor on yourself. You can usually even with shitty strength carry a pack along with that too. Those are about if not more than most average humans. Armor is fucking heavy.
Tabletop is great but if you want realism, without dice rolls (even though if behind the scene that is what is built into the mechanics) strength x15 is not what most humans are capable of by a long shot, even zalanthans.
Quote from: Aruven on April 29, 2019, 11:44:51 PM
Quote from: Namino on April 29, 2019, 10:50:37 PM
Quote from: John on April 29, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 29, 2019, 09:31:16 PMAnd it still should make some sort of sense...as it sits...with what staff is saying it makes little sense.
Armor makes plenty of sense to tabletop gamers. That's what Armageddon is descended from after all. Anyone whose familiar with tabletop RPGs will be completely familiar with how encumberance works in Armageddon. So while you might say it doesn't make sense, that is by no means a universal viewpoint.
Armor in D&D, the most popular and traditional tabletop, doesn't work this way though. Your carry weight is your str score x 15. For someone with average str (10), that's 150 pounds before you're encumbered and suffer any penalties. Plate armor in that game weighs 65lbs, meaning even relatively weak people can have plate armor in their inventories without the slightest difficulty. Hell, a moderately strong dude (str 13) can hoist up three full sets of platemail before he's penalized.
However, there are independent checks to see the sort of armor you can wear outside of what you can simply carry in your inventory. You need str 15 to wear plate. It's a decoupling of carry weight/armor proficiency pre-requisites that allows for people to carry reasonable amounts of weight in their inventory without making it so anyone can wear heavy armor. Armageddon double-dips by trying to make encumberance pull two shifts -- carry weight is applying penalties and that has to work for armor too, because there's no independent armor vs str check. And the only way to make that single system do both jobs is to make armor weigh unrealistic amounts.
I've actually never found a problem with weight, not as a real human, at least.
You can wear a full set of armor on yourself. You can usually even with shitty strength carry a pack along with that too. Those are about if not more than most average humans. Armor is fucking heavy.
Tabletop is great but if you want realism, without dice rolls (even though if behind the scene that is what is built into the mechanics) strength x15 is not what most humans are capable of by a long shot, even zalanthans.
Sorry, to be clear:
We want elves to have to wear leather.
A suit of cuir bouilli armor isn't going to weigh more than 25-30lbs for the whole set, then add on a 10lb pack and 5lb of weapons (2x 2.5lb swords), and you have a fully armed leather clad elf sitting on 40-45lbs of total weight, which is a very light load when distributed across the body.
So, if we want elves to not have the ability to get into heavy armor, while also being constrained by having no separation between the carry capacity and armor pre-requisite systems, then there's two solutions:
1) Make elf carrying capacity unplayable. 50lbs carry capacity before penalizing them. Have fun stripping naked before picking up barrels of water to move around camp, you dumb sharps!
2) Make armor unrealistically high weights. Give elves 120lb carrying capacity but make leather armor weigh 100lbs (this is an exaggeration to demonstrate my point).
Neither one of these two outcomes is realistic. Either elves are unrealistically weak or armor is unrealistically heavy.
The ideal solution to marry playability and realism is to just disentangle overall carriage weight and armor wear pre-requisites. Sure, you can carry 120lbs and plate armor only weighs 55lbs, but the ability to carry armor =! the ability to wear it. Just put the str threshold higher than what an elf can get for the wear check and boom. We done.
This armor is too bulky for you to wear.
Boiled leather definitely should not be considered "light" armor, especially not in context of Zalanthas.
Ideal/realistic light armor would be more strategic. Guard the knees, elbows, shins, forearms/wrists, neck, and head. Everywhere else on the body can absorb blunt trauma pretty decently (notable exception of the kidneys and the testicles, but even historically on Earth those were not always armored). Everywhere else you just need to be decently cut and pierce resistant. Light leather or even heavy canvas would do a decent job, especially with the crude blades of Zalanthas.
Quote from: Namino on April 29, 2019, 10:50:37 PMArmor in D&D, the most popular and traditional tabletop, doesn't work this way though.
Yes it does. Items (including armor) have a weight. Everyone has a maximum weight they can carry/wear and once they reach certain thresholds in their encumberance they get different penalties. That is exactly how it works in Armageddon.
Quote from: Namino on April 29, 2019, 10:50:37 PMYour carry weight is your str score x 15. For someone with average str (10), that's 150 pounds before you're encumbered and suffer any penalties.
Aaah. Your a 5th edition D&D player. 5th edition is considered to have the least realistic numbers when it comes to encumberance. The reason it has these numbers is because no-one enjoys calculating their encumberance and so many tables ignore the rule. 5th edition (like it did with alignment) kept the unpopular rule, but then designed the rules to minimise any and all impact it could possibly have on the game.
Quote from: Namino on April 29, 2019, 10:50:37 PMPlate armor in that game weighs 65lbs, meaning even relatively weak people can have plate armor in their inventories without the slightest difficulty. Hell, a moderately strong dude (str 13) can hoist up three full sets of platemail before he's penalized.
1. Platemail is made of steel, not chitin, wood, bone or mekillot hide or silt horror shell.
2. 5th edition grabbed numbers that made sense for the game rather than numbers that had any bearing on real life.
I'm not saying we should use numbers based on real life. I'm saying we should use numbers based on the game. The general mechanic of encumbrance is well understood by tabletop gamers and is not difficult at all for new gamers to Armageddon to understand. It's in a ton of computer RPGs including Skyrim.
Quote from: Namino on April 29, 2019, 10:50:37 PMHowever, there are independent checks to see the sort of armor you can wear outside of what you can simply carry in your inventory. You need str 15 to wear plate. It's a decoupling of carry weight
That's because 5th edition had such unrealistic numbers the old system of encumbrance didn't work anymore and so they needed to cludge in "a strength minimum" to stop strength 10 wizards from wearing the best armor in the game with a single feat.
Just to give you a bit more of an appreciation for encumbrance and how out of touch 5th edition is with earlier editions of D&D:
10 strength in 5th edition: 150 lbs
10 strength in 3.5e/Pathfinder had: 66 lb. or less (light), 67-133 lb. (moderate) 134-200 lb. (heavy)
AD&D 2e has even more categories and are even less forgiving (not retyping them from my book).
In D&D an average strength is 10. 10 strength in AD&D 2e has a maximum of 58 lbs for light encumbrance (5th edition doesn't really have light encumbrance it just has a binary condition of encumbered or not).
So using D&D (any edition) as a guide for Armageddon encumbrance levels isn't really helpful. And I wasn't intending to. I was simply pointing out that the concept of encumbrance is well ingrained in many games, even if the latest iteration of D&D has blown it out to who knows what proportions.
[EDIT]: In no way was this meant to cast aspersions on anyone for playing any edition of D&D (including 5th edition). Just to be absolutely clear.
The average weight of a full suit of plate armor is 55lbs. That isn't from tabletop. That is from reality. Platemails weight in D&D has not changed since AD&D so this isn't a 5th edition thing. 65lb platemail is actually slightly heavier than reality. They didn't grab numbers that diverged from realistic expectation. A great sword in first edition was a whipping 25lbs, which is 5.5x times the weight of the heaviest montante in reality. I'm going to go ahead and challenge the notion of later editions being less realistic. What they are, is far more play tested. The changes that occurred in 5e did so after half a century of playtesting and balance discussions. If you're looking for a good system for an rpg, you could do a lot worse than take your cues from that.
The average weight of a green turtle shell is ~20 lbs. I've published research on that species and spoke to my field researcher colleague who have frequently handled the shells from dead animals. She, a 120lb woman, can lift the shell of a 600lb animal with one hand and move it around. Shell armour would almost certainly be lighter than metal.
Your numbers for armor weights are vastly over inflated, in short.
An average athletic person (most Zalanthan combatants) can carry way more than 60lbs without difficulty. Maybe not when dangling from their arms but when distributed across the body.
Quote
Today the average US soldier carries at least 60 pounds of gear, with an extended patrol often doubling that weight. Specialized warfighters, such as Automatic Riflemen, Combat Medics, and Special Operations can see totals much higher. For example, US Army Spc. Craig Brown carries 90 pounds of gear as a SAW gunner, not including a ruck.
So I'm not sure what's going on here.
If you want realism these armor weights are not realistic.
If you want playability these armor weights are difficult when factores into overall encumberance.
If you just don't want things to be altered in any way because you hate change...
Remember: This is not a DnD game. Things that happen in DnD RARELY happen here.
Armor has weight. PROPER ARMOR should have less 'weight' to it for better protection.
So long as 'quality' hide armor protects better and/or weighs less than 'some gortok hides draped over your shoulders', I'd be okay with it. There should be a marked difference between 'shoddy' platemail armor and 'well-crafted' platemail armor. It might lead us back to the problem we've had previously, but with better staff oversight (and this overhaul in general) the ranges can be better defined.
Its not perfect, and preferably I'd rather see heavy-armor stack an attack speed penalty, or some other tradeoff. As it is, the meta-game would be to wear heavy armor for damage reduction while training, but only wear cloths/light leather in 'real' situations because it lets you hit harder and more often.
For the record: I'm on board with stamina drain in combat situations being based on current encumbrance level/armor class.
Has anyone already suggested that wearing armor should scale to make your PC hungry and thirsty faster? That is the real danger of wearing armor all the time, imo. This would naturally balance things out. Indies cannot afford the cost of wearing heavy armor all the time and/or they're accomplished foragers.
It adds a layer of interesting tactical decisions and favors heavy armor for city/clanned PCs which I feel is realistic to the setting.
It is hard to have some quasi-scientific debate about this when you don't know the specific weight of the materials. On Zalanthas. On top of that you might be envisioning an inch thick silt horror breastplate and I might envision it as three or four inches thick.
It doesn't matter. You have the same ways of dealing with this as you've had in the past. Namely, your character mixing and matching armor so that they are most protected where they feel most vulnerable. This change is meant to correlate protection to weight rather than having folks hunt through for things they think are more protective, which may or may not have been the case, for the weight. Now it is a more consistent trade-off. That's it. The tangents folks are going off on are just that, tangential.
Is cost/quality factored in anywhere? There's a pretty big difference between well-made armor and poorly-made armor. Maybe not for raw protective value, but definitely for mobility.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 30, 2019, 02:04:53 PM
Is cost/quality factored in anywhere? There's a pretty big difference between well-made armor and poorly-made armor. Maybe not for raw protective value, but definitely for mobility.
It's one of the factors, yes.
A gortok hide, for example, being worth 10 sid is never going to be as effective as an inix hide at 100 and an inix hide will not be as effective as a mekillot hide at 400. (*not actual numbers) - There are other factors that further contribute to this, including the quality of the craft and its source.
We're pulling into the home stretch(*) on the armor, ladies and gents!
1,615 items down, 500 to go!
*Home stretch means I should be able to finish the adjustments and craft recipes within a month of this post. It may, or may not take a bit longer to get all the pending crafts in-game/approved.
Now that we're nearly done with armor I have to ask, do weapons work on this (or a similar) continuum already, or are they also fairly arbitrary like armors were?
Quote from: Shabago on May 13, 2019, 10:05:32 AM
We're pulling into the home stretch(*) on the armor, ladies and gents!
1,615 items down, 500 to go!
The more good work you do, the less I can bitch and whine.
That's an INCREDIBLE amount of items to dig into and recategorize. Honestly, good work!
(https://i.imgur.com/NIiKZMJ.png)
(seriously though, awesome)
While there is investigation into various item values and weights are there any plans to catalog and remedy the numerous (currently NPC only) items without crafting recipes?
I have noted in requests, while playing a crafter, the sheer disparity between the variety of sword-type items and the variety of axe-type items (somewhere between ~30:6). This could be easily fixed by giving some of the non-clan-specific npc only weapons and armor crafting recipes. This has the added benefit of more variety for PC loadout than the usual store bought/starting shop bought gear. Additionally, this would help up and coming crafters avoid the problem of bumping into the 5 item limit, primarily because between the spider fang, scrap of cloth, and leather cord there are 10 recipes instead of 2, both of which only for the spider fang alone. This would open up new and interesting items already in game, work well in the economy update, breath life into the crafters we have, give us more options for crappy items to properly RP with (as opposed to Salarr or Kuraci) without requiring me to wear gith gear, and make shop inventory even more spacious!
We've yet to fully discuss the changes that will take place for weapons, beyond the fact that everything will have a uniformity to it. As it stands, things of like materials will have entirely different affects, costs, weights and we'd like to address that.
Quote from: Shabago on May 14, 2019, 06:15:40 PM
We've yet to fully discuss the changes that will take place for weapons, beyond the fact that everything will have a uniformity to it. As it stands, things of like materials will have entirely different affects, costs, weights and we'd like to address that.
Apologies. My last post mentioning weapons may have confused my question. Will there be an effort to add recipes to currently recipe-less NPC items while we are addressing the weight, value, and materials? I assume you would start with armors considering that is what we are currently working on.
That depends on the NPC in question, and if it's clan-specific or not.
Almost everything will be craftable once we're done with the overhaul, armor or otherwise. If we stick to armor specifically for examples, then a Salarr master crafter will be able to craft a majority of items found in Salarr or indy shops. They would not be able see/craft Kuraci armor, however.
If you're concerned that indy's won't have much to see or craft themselves, I can assure you that won't be the case. There are literally hundreds of crafts being added and are by no means locked behind clan doors entirely.
Shabago, when you're feeling down remember that you are doing god's work.
So I ended up with a burst of build energy!
2187 armor items have now been adjusted, ladies and gents. Now on to what remains of crafts - which Arilou has already made a dent in (Thank the Highlord for their help). I think we have 450 as a rough estimate to implement.
Aaaaaaaaaalmost there!
<Unreal Tournament voice>
Shabago is DOMINATING.
</Unreal Tournament voice>
<Mortal Kombat voice>
Fatality!
</Mortal Kombat voice>
Oh wait, that one is reserved for animations.
Quote from: Shabago on May 21, 2019, 05:31:14 PM
2187 armor items have now been adjusted, ladies and gents. Now on to what remains of crafts - which Arilou has already made a dent in (Thank the Highlord for their help). I think we have 450 as a rough estimate to implement.
Do you mean to say that of the armor that has been adjusted (all of it now? Jeez), that any armor that didn't have a recipe implemented will soon have SOME crafting recipe?
Because... 450 crafts is a lot. Are you still restricted by <x> amount of implementations per month? I remember something about Akariel's MeatCraft taking a while because there were limits on submissions, even by staff.
Quote from: Riev on May 22, 2019, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: Shabago on May 21, 2019, 05:31:14 PM
2187 armor items have now been adjusted, ladies and gents. Now on to what remains of crafts - which Arilou has already made a dent in (Thank the Highlord for their help). I think we have 450 as a rough estimate to implement.
Do you mean to say that of the armor that has been adjusted (all of it now? Jeez), that any armor that didn't have a recipe implemented will soon have SOME crafting recipe?
Because... 450 crafts is a lot. Are you still restricted by <x> amount of implementations per month? I remember something about Akariel's MeatCraft taking a while because there were limits on submissions, even by staff.
"Most" armor pieces will have a craft recipe, yes. There are a few exceptions to this. Clan specifics will be the biggest chunk of non-crafts. IE: Tor, Fale, AoD by House Salarr/Kurac/Kadius as a means to prevent shops ending up with items they shouldn't. Other examples would be 'Unique' items, certain one-off mastercrafts and a handful of items that do not have (yet) matching materials to compliment a logical craft recipe.
There isn't a limit on implementations per month, though there is a limit on how many can be done at once. Once that limit is hit, they have to be reviewed by another staff member (Admin/Producer) and approved.
I'll tally up the amount that is, or will be craftable out of that final 2187 and post here soon, as well.
So would it be safe to assume as a crafter who can make armor, you should keep your eye out for new crafts from existing materials?
Quote from: Cerelum on May 22, 2019, 04:12:44 PM
So would it be safe to assume as a crafter who can make armor, you should keep your eye out for new crafts from existing materials?
Absolutely. Over a hundred added as is, so feel free to explore!
Amazing work! Kudos!!!
Thanks guys, I appreciate it! :D
And as promised, a general summary break-down.
Is/will be craftable = 1070
Is/will be marked 'Unique' = 549
Discarded/re-use/rewrite = 556
(https://i.imgur.com/4bY8fqh.gif)
Holy shit staff is awesome. Seriously good work.