Bitching about the economy updates/questions thread: Armor edition

[mansa]

Do you mean that the single "gloves" or "boots" item actually contains 2 items, virtually?

Yeah..

Let's see if I can describe it better:

This is the currently outline
Head   
Neck   
Arms   
Wrist   
Hands
Body
Legs
Feet
Waist   
Shoulder   
Ankle

But it really should be this:
Head   
Neck   
Arms   
Left Wrist   
Right Wrist   
Hands
Body
Legs
Feet
Waist   
Left Shoulder   
Right Shoulder   
Left Ankle
Right Ankle

Whereas, in my opinion, each of the ankle, shoulder, and wrist armor pieces should have their weight and armor class halved.


For HEAVY SHELL items:
Wrists - 3.50 1.75
Hands - 5.75
(Or, adjusted slightly different, OR MAYBE IT ALREADY HAS BEEN TAKEN THAT INTO ACCOUNT)

[th3kaiser]

Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.

[Namino]

Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.

It's not the armor, it's the weight. If you look at someone you might see:

<hands> a pair of leather gloves
<right wrist> a  leather bracer
<left wrist> a leather bracer

Each wrist needs a separate bracer, but the hands are covered by a single item. Mansa is suggesting bracers should weigh less because they're independent like this. I think the numbers make sense as they are, because a bracer is bigger than a glove.

[th3kaiser]

Yup, I completely got that. He also said halve the armor value.

[mansa]

Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.

It's not the armor, it's the weight. If you look at someone you might see:

<hands> A pair of leather gloves
<right wrist> a  leather bracer
<left wrist> a leather bracer

Each wrist needs a separate bracer, but the hands are covered by a single item. Mansa is suggesting bracers should weigh less because they're independent like this. I think the numbers make sense as they are, because a bracer is bigger than a glove.

Hmm. I didn't think we had a AC system here. I thought each item had it's own armor value that was used to determine damage mitigation for a hit on that particular zone. So I don't really think you'd need to halve the armor on each bracer. Or I'm wrong.

Yeah, forget armor class, I don't know the math.  Let's just talk about weight.  I'll go edit my post.

[Brokkr]

Got ya.  Already taken into account.  It looks a bit wonky on the lighter item end simply because of increments and rounding.

[mansa]

Got ya.  Already taken into account.  It looks a bit wonky on the lighter item end simply because of increments and rounding.

Thanks exactly what I wanted to hear!

[Brokkr]

I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.

Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves  with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.

I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are.  They are seriously weak.

For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).

On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.

[Is Friday]

Nomination for thread of the year.

[Delirium]

Queue elf fan outrage in 3... 2... 1...

Unconvinced about weights as they seem heavy still (remember stones=kg, not lbs) but I also trust the amount of thought and debate that likely went into deciding on it. I'm sure if it turns out to be too much it'll be tweaked.

[Brokkr]

Well, it is mostly comparable.  The old game was finding stuff someone made that was significantly better in terms of weight.  The trade off was you had no idea how well it protected you.  Seriously, the old values were really really random.

Now you should know the weight is fairly consistent and the protection is fairly consistent and you can make choices on what you want to prioritize.

[Cerelum]

I have to say, that this is WAYYYY more transparent of a game than it was even three years ago.

I remember any conversation about code beyond command syntax was immediately shut down and moderated, then you'd get a nasty request from whomever.

Now they are literally laying out weights, what's more protective and all that shit.  Fucking bravo.  I think that steps like this, transparent understanding of code, or at least being able to talk about it without getting in trouble is a step that will see the game regain old players.

Keep up the good work, and keep telling us about it.

[John]

Huh. My brain is confused by how leather is heavier than wood/bone armor...and also more protective. Weird stuff. I'd never ever ever have assumed that.

I can see mak hide being heavier then bone.

[Cabooze]

Im pretty sure I read somewhere that elves specifically design a lot of their own crafts with elf strength in mind, IE, there /NEEDS/ to be a separate classification for shells, bones, and leathers in regards to elves.

In the past (and semi-currently), elves could purchase equipment (such as dujat shell breastplates/helmets), and their weight wouldn't be extraordinary as they were crafted with the thought that the equipment is meant for elves. Now, with this change, a lot of this equipment that was crafted just for elves, would be weighted so high that only a dwarf or AI strength human could wear it effectively.

Is there any plan to not completely shit on elven QoL for the equipment that was specifically designed for them? Maybe make it something similar to mantis-armor, where only an elf can equip that equipment, to keep other races from getting somewhat-equally effective, lighter armor.

[Namino]

Maybe make it something similar to mantis-armor, where only an elf can equip that equipment, to keep other races from getting somewhat-equally effective, lighter armor.

This is one solution. There's also the typical solution most well balanced games use:

Give heavier armor diminishing returns (ie, going from no armor to 10 stone of armor is a big change, going from 50 stone of armor to 60 stone is meh, and going from 70 stone to 80 hardly makes any difference). This is also a protection against min-maxing by the way, which Brokkr has suggested is a huge issue. You can max, sure, but it doesn't give you as much. Elves only being able to wear armor 1/2 as heavy as humans becomes less of an issue when it's still 75% as effective due to diminishing returns on the half they can't get. Then all you have to do is make average elven agility 25% more effective than average human agility in regards to damage reduction with a similar diminishing returns at excess agility, and viola. Strength/agility balance in combat (at least on the defensive end).

[Kryos]

Just chipping in I'm very glad this area is being reviewed.  Armor weights were definitely too high, especially relative to the weak races / low strength roll humans and what protected well vs what didn't was a bit too erudite.  These things being addressed is great.

I will say I'd much, much rather the most protective tier of armor be restricted by wealth and prowess and not weight.  Simply not giving the unwashed masses access is in theme, and making it cost a boat to buy and keep is a good economy sink.

Heavy armor was and is the game changer for we humans because it isn't rendering one unable to move well.  Rather, that it took intense time and labor to deploy in lower tech environments.  Only the big shots had that resource to do heavy armor with. 

P.S.
We had several types of armor in our own time line that can be replicated in Zalanthas absent metal and still nearly as protective.  They were expensive, hard to make, and 'heavy' armors too.  But if you hit someone wearing them with a sword(or even arrows), nothing happened.

[Dresan]

I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.

Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves  with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.

I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are.  They are seriously weak.

For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).

On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.

Wow~ I did underestimate how shitty it currently is... that does indeed suck.

Though it seems to me it not only has to do with elf strength but probably more the effects of size on  gear weight. As an elf with smaller size can clearly pull off quite a bit more armor with just decent strength.

Perhaps this will mean max height/max weight character's won't be as common anymore. 

[Bushranger]

I dont mind keeping it simple in terms of protection but surprised bone chainmail is not as protective as leather. Based on the weight it used to be right up there with shell.

Oh well. I am hoping that at the end of this, we take into account weapon, shields, water, tablets, etc and ensure that elves  with average strength and size for elves can at least wear leathers while remaining light. While those stronger can manage studded at least.

I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are.  They are seriously weak.

For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).

On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.

I am very, very happy that this is a project being worked on by staff.

This is my only question / concern about these changes: I can see that you've taken into account racial strength (average and strongest) with wearing armour which is good but no PC ever just wears armour. At the very least they would carry weapons (a medium sized weapon like a sword or club or two small weapons like two daggers) and possibly a small backup weapon. They would probably also have a little bit of water, a bit of food and a couple of miscellaneous doodahs that most everyone has like a mount ticket, a few coins and a backpack.

When testing how much armour a PC can wear and how much encumbrance that would be was there consideration given to this?

It's great if an average strength human could wear regular leather armour and remain light but could they pick up an average sword and still remain light or would a simple weapon push them into easily manageable?

[Brokkr]

My example above is with the new weights...under the old system, who knows what your weight would have been.  It is likely there will be cases where the weight of your armor is heavier.  This project isn't about making it easier to wear heavier armor, it is about making things consistent and in doing so more thematic.

"Elf" stuff tended to be way overpowered, but inconsistent.  Take the dujat-shell breastplate someone mentioned.  It weighed 4 stone.  Looking at other items with the same amount of protection for the same body spot, some are chitin.  Some are leather.  The lowest weighted one was 0.75 stones.  The  highest weighted one was 16.5 stones.  Instead of thinking things through and being like...huh, maybe elves would try to minimize chitin/shell/heavy stuff to the most critical uses and use lighter stuff like leather for most stuff, someone just replicated chitin armor with a lower weight, despite it not really making a realistic or consistent item.  We are moving away from that.  Elves may need to make some logical choices for their physical limitations.

[Cabooze]

My example above is with the new weights...under the old system, who knows what your weight would have been.  It is likely there will be cases where the weight of your armor is heavier.  This project isn't about making it easier to wear heavier armor, it is about making things consistent and in doing so more thematic.

"Elf" stuff tended to be way overpowered, but inconsistent.  Take the dujat-shell breastplate someone mentioned.  It weighed 4 stone.  Looking at other items with the same amount of protection for the same body spot, some are chitin.  Some are leather.  The lowest weighted one was 0.75 stones.  The  highest weighted one was 16.5 stones.  Instead of thinking things through and being like...huh, maybe elves would try to minimize chitin/shell/heavy stuff to the most critical uses and use lighter stuff like leather for most stuff, someone just replicated chitin armor with a lower weight, despite it not really making a realistic or consistent item.  We are moving away from that.  Elves may need to make some logical choices for their physical limitations.

The idea behind something weighing so little, is so that it was a viable option for elves to actually wear. Instead of making the items made by elves, for elves, weigh as much as human/dwarf counterpart crafts, why not reduce their protectiveness? Why not add a tag that can be put on "elf" armor that refers to an 'if, else' script, to make it so any other race is unable to wear that armor.
IE:

Code Select Expand


elf_armor
if is race elf
return cmd_wear
else if not race elf
return echo "This is not designed to fit you".
fi

Not sure how the game code is written, but this is just an example of something that could be done (with assumptions made about the code-base).

With the way this is being approached, you're basically telling anyone that wants to consider playing an elf: "You either need to wear shitty armor nearly equivalent to normal clothing that makes you easy to kill, not that you were already easy to kill to begin with... Or live life at VERY heavy encumbrance." (especially since this change doesnt take into account other weight values that players have to deal with, IE, weapons, backpack, belt, coins.... Having more than one weapon is going to become an ordeal for elves, now, unless all they do is stick to tiny 1 stone daggers, assuming they want to be wearing something other than cloth or low-tier leathers.)

It was (and is) already hard to play an elf competitively. This is just going to make it nigh impossible to survive most situations that elves see themselves getting into.

[Brokkr]

What would the point be of making special elf chitin armor that was somehow lighter and less protective, that would end up heavier and no more protective than leather armor?

[Cabooze]

Well, of course it would need to be fitting somewhere in the middle of those two things. I suppose I am rather inept at getting my point across so I apologize if I'm at all being ridiculous in my concerns.

[Brokkr]

Not at all.  It is simply that you aren't privy to all the back-end information that we are. I'm trying to give context why from our viewpoint it may not make sense.

We could go through all this effort to make armor that is....equivalent to armor you already have.  Or you could just get high end armor that you would already have access to.  It seems a lot of work on our side for little benefit other than to let elves wear chitin all over?

[X-D]

Brokkr, I am still stuck on bone/wood being lighter then leather.

I mean, from the mdescs I have looked at, the number of bone scale jackets that say they are made of only bone is basically 0.

Instead it is, "lots of thin bone scales attached to a heavy leather jacket".
The same applies to wood for a vast majority of items. A wood splint vest is a leather vest with wood splints.
A bone helm has a leather cap/liner inside.

Yet a leather cap is...um, a leather cap...etc etc.

So, I guess the question is....how are the values being assigned? By like assess return values "primarily made of leather" Or sdesc/mdesc "A bone scaled hauberk"?

Because if assigned by what assess says, I can see myself and others bugging a LOT of gear.

Heck, I am just looking over some items, and now that it matters I can see bugging...well, lets show for a moment.

Made from the scaly hide of jozhals, this glove shimmers when hit by
sunlight.  The skin from these highly intelligent animals not only reflect
sunlight but are also fairly comfortable after they have been treated
properly.  Such gloves are usually worn by nobility or the wealthy. 


ass gloves
You assess a dusty pair of jozhal hide gloves...
...it is primarily made of skin.


l boots
These boots are made from the naturally supple hide of a jozhal,
shimmering with the countless colors involved in the creature's natural
camouflage.  They are made to fit snugly, and reach mid-calf.  They are
fitted with a sole made of sturdy hide, and appear solidly made all around,
likely for functional, yet comfortable use. 

ass boots
You assess a dusty pair of supple, jozhal-hide boots...
...it is primarily made of leather.

Now, by mdesc these are made of the same thing, yet in assess they are different, one has the item material skin...which I have no idea where that is on your list, cheap leather? And the other has the item material leather.

But they really should be the same.

I have more, but will leave it for now.

[Shabago]

While Brokkr may wish to weigh in further X-D:

Items are based upon their 'primary' material first, then adjusted depending on additions. IE: A studded leather vest will be material leather, but placed into the 'heavy-leather' category due to the studding.

As a general request, rather then aimed at you directly, please hold off on bugging items until I've finished adjusting all of the items. The made of 'skin' or made of 'duskhorn' etc are no longer valid categories that I'm changing over to the new system as I go.

*ETA - there won't be any fresh items added to the previous update from last week of the 1100 items this week. With the adjustments, and going back to look over certain items with code changes/releases, I'm playing catch up.