Bitching about the economy updates/questions thread: Armor edition

[ABoredLion]

How about armor for back-slot like backplates? What's their set up in all of this? Shields? Did I miss that anywhere, or was it implied?

[Vex]

How about armor for back-slot like backplates? What's their set up in all of this? Shields? Did I miss that anywhere, or was it implied?

I just assumed, it was a flavor thing.

I've used MASTER backstab on people, who wore backplates and shields, and it didn't help them any. Never seen npcs attack back, or anything hit the back, so I think it's just for flavor.

[ABoredLion]

I was more talking like their chosen 'weight' numbers for material type, and the scaling, as shown for other item location/material composition set up.

[MeTekillot]

How about armor for back-slot like backplates? What's their set up in all of this? Shields? Did I miss that anywhere, or was it implied?

I just assumed, it was a flavor thing.

I've used MASTER backstab on people, who wore backplates and shields, and it didn't help them any. Never seen npcs attack back, or anything hit the back, so I think it's just for flavor.

Stabbing weapons hit the back when they critical, not sure I've ever seen it on a conscious person though.

[mansa]

As there continues to be some concern as to how the pending armor updates will play out, especially with regards to the weight of items impacting encumbrance, we'd like to be all the more transparent on the factors feeding into this component of the armor updates.

First, we have taken the material types and created aligned categories of armor based on the material type and specific materials and craftsmanship that went into making the armor:

1) Cloth armor (Includes: linen, silk, sand-cloth, cotton)

2) Cheap leather armor

3) Wood/Bone armor

4) Leather Armor

5) Heavy leather/Studded armor

6) Cheap chitin/Obsidian armor

7) Chitin/Obsidian armor

8 ) Shell armor

9) Heavy shell armor

The further down this list your armor is, the more it will weigh.  The further down this list your armor is, all other things being equal, the more it will protect you.

The amount that any particular piece of armor in general will weigh is impacted by the material category, which area of the body the armor is for and the size that the armor is tailored for. For an average sized human, unless a piece is made to specifically deviate from the norm, this would be:

            Head
            Neck
            Arms
            Wrist
            Hands
            Body
            Legs
            Feet
            Waist
            Shoulder
            Ankle

Hey Shabago,

It looks great.  However, it would be wonderful to be reassured on the typical fantasy picture I have in my head of elves.

When I picture an elf, usually a Tolkien version as that's most popular in the fantasy trope, I never think of them in full plate / shell armor.  I usually picture them like Legolas, wearing leathers and being very agile.   So here's the question:

What is the encumbrance of an averaged strength elf if they are decked out in 5) Heavy Leather?

Decked out is :

• two bone swords
• a bow
• a quiver with 5 arrows
• a backpack with average supplies (rations, waterskin, 300 coins, spice)
• heavy leather worn:
  
  • Head
  • Neck
  • Arms
  • Wrist
  • Hands
  • Body
  • Legs
  • Feet

In my mind, I would say that their encumbrance is in the 'manageable' level.  Leathers/Bone/Wood would be in 'easily manageable'
It wouldn't be in the 'Very Heavy' levels.   If an elf was wearing shells, obsidian, or something like that, I think it would definitely be in the heavy area.
Can I play out this fantasy picture of an elf that I have in my head?

[Brokkr]

I think you mis-understand exactly how weak elves are.  They are seriously weak.

For a minimum level of elf average strength range, at average size, a elf wearing just armor in all slots (excluding shoulder/ankle) could wear cheap leather and remain no problem, while wood/bone would put them at easily manageable, as would regular leather. If instead they were the strongest of elves, they could wear all regular leather and remain at light (but not heavy leather/studded).

On the other hand, an average sized human at the lowest average strength could wear regular leather and remain light.

You are probably underestimating how heavy the heavy leather is.  Think skins like inix or salt worm that are thick and heavy.  Or mixed types with studs and leather.  You typical Tolkein elf is probably in just leather, not heavy leather.

Legolas probably wasn't even wearing leather in all slots, if I remember the books/movies correctly.  More a mix of leather in some slots and nothing/cloth in others. (nothing on his head, I don't remember him with leather sleeves, or any neck protection, etc).

[Veselka]

I'm assuming the lack of armor/ability to wear it is also countered by their increased agility and ability to dodge.

Seems legit.

[X-D]

Encumbrance
1. a burden or impediment

How many of you staffers who are working on this project have A: worn REAL armor, not costume, not period theatre etc, But the real deal, made totally to period specs? B: Have done more then cursory research on the matter?

I am having issues with the fact that the answers I keep seeing from staff point to never and almost none.

The fact that Arm only has the one way to represent encumbrance is problematic as I see staff also only referring to that one thing. Yet IRL 80lbs of well crafted articulated boiled waxed leather is going to encumber FAR less then 40lbs of tied on hides and protect better as well.

Next, I do not think any of you have an idea how little fitted armors actually do encumber. As in, you really do not notice the difference in 50lbs of stiff leather and 80lbs leather backed bronze.

Figure out a way to translate the quality of the craft into the weight/encumbrance and you will be doing better service then simply the weight of what it is made of.

I mean, anybody ever played hockey or football..rode dirtbike? All quality armors that weight from 40-80lbs depending and yet people walk around in riding leather/armor all day long without issue...do amazing things in football and hockey agility and endurance wise. And don't be bringing that modern material argument either...if all we are talking about is weight=encumbrance then 40lbs is 40lbs.

[Dresan]

I can understand heavy leather being out for elves but even regular leather is pretty heavy on your average elf.

The problem isn't just weight and strength of an elf but weight/strength plus additional weight on gear for size. It just feels like a bit much when average weapons can weight 6 stones and you sometimes need those weapons damages to overcome poor strength.   

Also shields right now are kinda in need of some variance but probably something for players to fix over time. There needs to be more wood/leather or bone framed leather shields in the game especially in the south where bone, leather and chitin should be more plentiful vs just wood.

[Shabago]

Code Select Expand

The dark brown elven woman is using: (With average str)

<on head>                a black leather helmet
<around neck>            a thick, triangle-embossed leather gorget
<slung across back>      a scorched horn bow
<across back>            a leather backpack
<on torso>               a brilliant, golden-scale breastplate
<on arms>                a pair of bark-plated, carru-hide sleeves
<as belt>                a glossy leather belt
<hung from belt>         a curved, black-chitin sword
<hung from belt>         a curved, black-chitin sword
<around body>            a dark, hooded cloak
<about waist>            a gwoshi hide quiver (x 5 arrows)
<on legs>                a pair of black-moon-emblazoned leather and bone leggings
<on feet>                a pair of sturdy leather boots

exa pack
This backpack is simple, yet functional, made more for utilitarian purpose
than for show.  It is little more than a large leather sack with two adjusting
straps to fit over the arms and a flap to hold things in.  The leather is dusty
and old, and probably has seen better days.
In a leather backpack (used) :
a pile of coins x304
a waterskin - full
a few strips of dried beetle meat

You are carrying 36 stones weight, which is easily manageable.

[MeTekillot]

How good a pack is at managing weight should be included in its assess. Weight reduction on containers are not created equal.

[Dresan]

@Shabago

And she is light? Guessing her pack is empty too? No waterskin, some food, cures,etc.  And her size is just average for an elf?

Also assuming those are bad leathers too. She is missing bracers, gloves and perhaps something for the waist but suppose she can live without some armor. 

[MeTekillot]

She's at easily manageable.

[Shabago]

Plus the cloak seems to have covered the fact they have bracers and a belt on as well. The pack isn't empty? Nor is the quiver. Scroll the window.

[Shabago]

Sample two:

Same elfy, same average strength.

Code Select Expand

In a reinforced green sandcloth backpack (used) :
a pile of allanaki coins (x300)
a white cloth bandage
a knot of black, viscous spice
a few thick, meaty steaks
a waterskin (full)

In a sinew-tied bone slat quiver (used) :
several green-fletched, obsidian-headed arrows (ten of them)

eq
You are using:
<on head>                a jade-plumed black helmet
<around neck>            a golden-brown carru leather gorget
<slung across back>      a duskhorn recurve bow
<across back>            a reinforced green sandcloth backpack
<on torso>               an amber-dyed leather vest
<on arms>                a supple pair of earthy leather sleeves
<around right wrist>     a supple, earthy leather bracer
<around left wrist>      a supple, earthy leather bracer
<on hands>               a pair of white-dyed braxat-hide gloves
<as belt>                a scarlet-buckled leather belt
<hung from belt>         a blackened jagged-edged scimitar
<about waist>            a sinew-tied bone slat quiver
<on legs>                a pair of amber-dyed leather leggings
<on feet>                a pair of carru leather boots

You are carrying 33 stones weight, which is easily manageable.

[Shabago]

While I'm at it - UPDATE!

1,300 items adjusted/updated or discarded.

[Dresan]

You are carrying 36 stones weight

I wish we could get this information and be able to tell how much we are carrying more accurately, maybe tied to the value skill?

A number of elves (and classes) will need to remain light not easily manageable which is half the problem.  Heck, if stealth is your bread and butter I even feel there is a difference between no problem and light but I digress.

All in all, I am accepting of the  encumbrance limitations based on gear weight and strength. However, I still believe that size/weight increases to gear is too punishing for elves. If size increased the just minimum value of strength/endurance for races than that would be perfectly fine, good trade off. But while i admit that perhaps I don't fully understand all the bonus for size other than perhaps some related to combat in the helpfiles, i just feel in many cases it is unwarranted.  I would be happy to stand corrected in this though.

[Brokkr]

If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?

[Jihelu]

If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?

Because of all the hide gear that's not cloth?

[X-D]

Because IRL cloth is actually noisier then leather?

I mean...alright, some types of leather are a bit squeaky. But many types are way quieter then fabric.

"says the hunter with the buckskin hunting outfit"

[Dresan]

If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?

Interestingly enough, it was only recently that I noticed that the premier city sneaky set, which for the longest time I thought was ultra light gear...was actually heavy gear. Perhaps this should be changed leather at least?

Glad the desert version is sand-cloth at least. That said I believe with the weights established over time players will create new sets to fill niches. 

[Jihelu]

There's a lot of the outdoor sneak-gear thats leather, but the sandcloth one is good too

[Nao]

This is an upside to playing shorter characters (or a disadvantage to making them max height). They are easier to bash and all, but can carry around a bit more crap at the same strength level because their armor is a size or two below those with max height.

[John]

How many of you staffers who are working on this project have A: worn REAL armor, not costume, not period theatre etc, But the real deal, made totally to period specs?

Verisimilitude is far more important in a roleplaying game and a video game then realism. You might not like how the game is coded or how armor is represented. But demanding that staff have your specific knowledge (I'm not saying whether or not your knowledge is correct, simply that it is yours) in order to work on any part of the game is the height of hubris. So long as the game is clear as to how it works and why it works that way, that is far more important then how realistic it is.

If you are seriously trying to sneak, why aren't you wearing cloth?

Sneaking in cloth is a do or die tactic. If you're doing it in a dangerous area and fail your sneak check you die.

[Marauder Moe]

Realism has importance.  When mechanics are obfuscated, you should be able to fall back on "realism" to guide your choices.  This is a common staff response to people asking about hidden mechanics, after all.

The most realistic change to combat/armor would be a stamina cost for every round you're in combat.  The amount drained would factor in armor, encumbrance, weapon weight, and temperature.  At low/zero stamina you would start incurring combat penalties.

I don't think this would be a very fun change, though.