How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?

[Melkor]

A mother doesn't necessarily have to bond with a child to raise them, although it helps the child to develop into a more productive member of modern society if they do. Zalanthas is a fucked up enough place where humans would be strong enough to grit their teeth and survive without it, otherwise breeds would be impossible.

The mother-child bond of love is formed in a large part by the chemical oxytocin, which is released during childbirth and breastfeeding. This is a reason why mothers of adopted infants are encouraged to breastfeed, to form that chemical bond. Going through the motions will result in attachment. Ya cant fight chemicals, really.

[Grapes]

Yes, I've read quite a bit about oxytocin... that said, there are real world examples of failure to bond that have occurred despite the presence of the hormone. Males produce oxytocin as well, and so bond with others, so really what the whole "oxytocin" thing comes down to is most people aren't a dickhead to everyone %100 of the time. While women have more reason to produce oxytocin over the course of their lives, this isn't necessarily a gaurentee they'll bond more frequently, and in fact, may constitute a liability that may influence evolutionary processes over time, leading to decreased significance of bonding in some humanoids.

Most reptiles don't bond with their young (to my understanding), and there's still reptiles all over the place... so I don't necessarily agree with "because oxytocin", all I agree with is play your PC as you imagine them to be, and don't point fingers if someone plays an overly aloof PC, even in the presence of situations that may stimulate a release of oxytocin. Myself, my characters tend to bond rather easily and be protective, but in a harsh world it's not always going to be like that (some cases may be more or less pronounced). For the players that take up the slack, kudos.

[Refugee]

I think probably most mothers of Zalanthas care for their children as much as Earth mothers do.  If your PC mother doesn't, cool.  If she does, cool.  Play what you want.

If someone says something sexist IC, don't report it.  There will be sexists in Zalanthas.  Zalanthans tends toward being assholes.  A PC's experience might make them think the way they do.  Or they might just say shit because it pisses people off and they like that.  Play it the way your PC would react.  Otherwise, -you- are the one doing it wrong.

If you want to play a sexist PC, do it.  Play what you want.  Just have a reason for it, and accept the IG consequences.

[Veselka]

Except isn't that against the game rules?

[Grapes]

Except isn't that against the game rules?

Not necessarily, against the rules, but it would kind of be the exception to the norm, and earn you a lot of odd looks for being an obvious dingbat, or should.

[mansa]

Except isn't that against the game rules?

Very much so.  There is no sexism in ArmageddonMUD.


Very good description here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,19685.msg212473.html#msg212473

[nauta]

Your character must choose to be male or female. Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she, etc.). Women and men are equal on Zalanthas.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.

Source: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php

[Grapes]

Your character must choose to be male or female. Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she, etc.). Women and men are equal on Zalanthas.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.

Source: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php

Sadly, seen this go without being enforced.

[Veselka]

...Which is why you should report it.

[Veselka]

[quote
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally.

Source: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php
[/quote]

Seems to sum it up completely.

[Hauwke]

No sexism, does not mean no differences.

[Refugee]

It just seems so childish.  Amos said men are better than women, so we tattle on Amos's player to the authorities.  Instead of having Amos reap the IG consequences of everyone knowing he's a dickhead.

[evilcabbage]

amos said men are better than woman, so we pointed him to talia.

talia broke his legs and punched all his teeth out of his mouth.

talia is sergeant of the breed fuckers unit of the byn.

talia is an elf.

amos doesn't talk anymore.

[Malken]

amos said men are better than woman, so we pointed him to talia.

talia broke his legs and punched all his teeth out of his mouth.

talia is sergeant of the breed fuckers unit of the byn.

talia is an elf.

amos doesn't talk anymore.

Talia's problem is not being female, it's being an elf.

All of Talia's punches would bounce harmlessly against Amos' fleshy defense.

[Sorry]

The 'players will self regulate lolsexism behaviour and not actually deliberately enable each other without oversight' idea applied to any other group of humans in the world didn't work out so well

[evilcabbage]

we're different. we'll regulate it.

you'll see.

[The Lonely Hunter]

In a world where racism is the norm it seems odd to consider that sexism doesn't exist. It's perfectly fine to absolutely hate everyone with black hair but you can't hate them because they have testicles.

[puella]

In a world where racism is the norm it seems odd to consider that sexism doesn't exist. It's perfectly fine to absolutely hate everyone with black hair but you can't hate them because they have testicles.

The documentation is pretty explicit that speciesism exists as a norm in Zalanthas (elf vs. human, etc.).  It is also clearly documented that sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas.  I'm not sure if it is documented, but I don't think that racism exists in Zalanthas in the sense that you would be racist against a fellow Allanaki citizen based on the color of their skin or hair (with the exception of mutants, of course).

There's plenty of other ways of being hateful available -- from the perspective of an average Allanaki citizen, for instance, you can be hateful towards:

1. Gicks.
2. Tribals
3. Tulukis
4. Red Stormers / Luirsians (indeed, anyone who isn't a citizen of Allanak)
5. Elves
6. Mutants
7. Half-giants
8. Half-elves
9. Dwarves
10. Muls
11. Rinthers

[The Lonely Hunter]

I apologize for using racism as a synonym for speciesism. However, the point remains. I'm not saying prohibiting sexism is right or not only that it doesn't quite seem to fit when is it it is okay to hate people based on pretty much anything else that you want to.

It seems that in this setting it would be perfectly reasonable for sexism to exist, along with every other possible form of ism, and it seems more like an OOC consideration to prevent hurt feelings.

The documentation is what it is and it needs to be followed regardless of personal feelings. I simply question the reason behind that particular bit. It has never affected my gameplay in the past and will likely not affect in the future.

[Delirium]

TLH, are you male or female? Because sexism absolutely exists in the game regardless of if it should. Because you havent personally experienced it doesn't invalidate the need for that rule. Things would be far worse if those attitudes were permitted unchecked.

[Booya]

Let's talk Zalanthan science! The way I like to see it is: Yes the sexes undeniably have different body parts, but if you're playing Arm you just have to imagine a world where the biological/chemical makeup of Zalanthans doesn't necessarily always exactly correspond to a common biological makeup of Earth humans. Of course infant-nurturing females and non-infant-nurturing males aren't even universal in RL, nor are all men stronger than all women etc, so it's not even demanding something that's scientifically impossible.  So hopefully it's not too hard a leap when you're already imagining a world with giant insects and magick! In what way that affects evolution is still a mystery I guess - but they're managing to survive. In RL hunter-gather-nomadic societies, there's growing evidence women hunted as much, travelled thousands of miles, did the same physical work as men, whilst dealing with periods, pregnancy and lactating. And there was more shared responsibility for child-rearing.  Women are ridiculously far from being weak, and we're magnifying that to Zalanthan levels.

Zalanthans accept as normal that women and men have equal capacity to display qualities we're used to attributing to being masculine and feminine, therefore sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas, as gender devaluation for certain characteristics just isn't a 'thing'. So while it's fair to RP an individual PC as hating the other sex (if you as a player accept and help display that PC is an abnormal weirdo), lumping gender characteristics into that hate just shouldn't come into play as you'd be trying to rewrite the game's core reality - and perhaps be aware you risk coming across as just trying to bend the entire gameworld to suit your potential, individual, RL biases.

There are so many games where you can find women pigeonholed into stereotypical 'feminine' roles if that's what floats your boat - please don't try and bring it to one of the few fantasy games that treats women and men equally. It's still feels like quite a rare concept in this genre and it can also enhance the enjoyment for a lot of women RPing females when freed from contending with the usual RL biases of their daily life.  I know I've always found it an incredibly refreshing, awesome and maybe a groundbreaking aspect of Arm - it's something to be cherished imo.

[Melkor]

It is an original, groundbreaking aspect of Arm, that the sexes are 100% equal and sexism is strictly taboo.

In fact, one of the first things that Cat Rambo mentioned, when being interviewed about this game by Roguelike radio, was that deliberate action was taken initially to encourage female participation, and one of the things she was proudest of regarding Arm was that women could play and not feel hassled.

This seems particularly odd to me, as the player's identity is separate from the character's.  A female player could play male or female characters, and a male player could do the same; so why is it that it is so crucial for the female playerbase - in order to feel comfortable playing - that their own female characters have stilts to walk on? Stilts being an artificial construct which alters supposed "standard" behavior, interaction, and dynamics.

[Veselka]

Probably because you're a dude and don't see how prevalent blatantly sexist atmospheres are almost encouraged in fantasy RPI/RPG games. Slut shaming is real, pretty-little-princessifying every woman you meet is real, offering to help the damsel in distress is real. In ArmageddonMUD, those scenarios are few and far between, and so remotely non-existent in comparison. It's refreshing, and i'm glad it's a rule and foundation stone of the game community.

For example, I really liked playing HarshlandsRPI. But every woman in that game was turned into a pretty little princess, no one should let the woman open the door, no one should let the woman get dirty with mud when it's raining outside...The rabbit hole was deep. There were exceptions, particularly for long-lived Female PCs that could rip ass if you looked at them sideways, but every new Female PC? People would get confused if you were a female Blacksmith, asking why you weren't a trader or chose to be an Inkeeper's Helper instead.

I'm confused what you're arguing for -- That people should allowed to be 'Standardized Sexist' like they are in real life? Should we bring back rape while we're at it?

[Veselka]

Let's talk Zalanthan science! The way I like to see it is: Yes the sexes undeniably have different body parts, but if you're playing Arm you just have to imagine a world where the biological/chemical makeup of Zalanthans doesn't necessarily always exactly correspond to a common biological makeup of Earth humans. Of course infant-nurturing females and non-infant-nurturing males aren't even universal in RL, nor are all men stronger than all women etc, so it's not even demanding something that's scientifically impossible.  So hopefully it's not too hard a leap when you're already imagining a world with giant insects and magick! In what way that affects evolution is still a mystery I guess - but they're managing to survive. In RL hunter-gather-nomadic societies, there's growing evidence women hunted as much, travelled thousands of miles, did the same physical work as men, whilst dealing with periods, pregnancy and lactating. And there was more shared responsibility for child-rearing.  Women are ridiculously far from being weak, and we're magnifying that to Zalanthan levels.

Zalanthans accept as normal that women and men have equal capacity to display qualities we're used to attributing to being masculine and feminine, therefore sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas, as gender devaluation for certain characteristics just isn't a 'thing'. So while it's fair to RP an individual PC as hating the other sex (if you as a player accept and help display that PC is an abnormal weirdo), lumping gender characteristics into that hate just shouldn't come into play as you'd be trying to rewrite the game's core reality - and perhaps be aware you risk coming across as just trying to bend the entire gameworld to suit your potential, individual, RL biases.

There are so many games where you can find women pigeonholed into stereotypical 'feminine' roles if that's what floats your boat - please don't try and bring it to one of the few fantasy games that treats women and men equally. It's still feels like quite a rare concept in this genre and it can also enhance the enjoyment for a lot of women RPing females when freed from contending with the usual RL biases of their daily life.  I know I've always found it an incredibly refreshing, awesome and maybe a groundbreaking aspect of Arm - it's something to be cherished imo.

Agreed 100%. Thanks for the eloquence.

[Melkor]

Probably because you're a dude and don't see how prevalent blatantly sexist atmospheres are almost encouraged in fantasy RPI/RPG games. Slut shaming is real, pretty-little-princessifying every woman you meet is real, offering to help the damsel in distress is real. In ArmageddonMUD, those scenarios are few and far between, and so remotely non-existent in comparison. It's refreshing, and i'm glad it's a rule and foundation stone of the game community.

For example, I really liked playing HarshlandsRPI. But every woman in that game was turned into a pretty little princess, no one should let the woman open the door, no one should let the woman get dirty with mud when it's raining outside...The rabbit hole was deep. There were exceptions, particularly for long-lived Female PCs that could rip ass if you looked at them sideways, but every new Female PC? People would get confused if you were a female Blacksmith, asking why you weren't a trader or chose to be an Inkeeper's Helper instead.

I'm confused what you're arguing for -- That people should allowed to be 'Standardized Sexist' like they are in real life? Should we bring back rape while we're at it?

Lol rape is standard?

"You're a dude so you can't possibly see" is a really lame argument.

My whole point was that women can play male characters and not experience that, or men can play female characters and experience the other side. The fact that we are not ourselves when we are IC is what makes it so odd that, in order for a female player to feel comfortable, her female characters have to be treated a certain way as per the rules. If they were not the rules, male players with female characters would experience the same discrimination.

As far a expected gender roles... isn't surmounting obstacles and being unique a good thing? The female blacksmith might be looked at weird or have some jokes made about her, but would be an awesome, interesting character in contrast to the norm. I liked the lady blacksmith in A Knight's Tale. "Are you a woman or a blacksmith?" "Sometimes I'm both."

In the end, I like more flavors, not less; and eliminating a source of strife makes the world just a little bit blander.