Hermaphrodites and Crossdressing

[nauta]

So, here's a question related to the discussion in another thread about gender presentation:

How would the average Zalanthan react to the 'T' in LGBTQ (or intersex)?

On the one hand, documentation is pretty clear that sexuality is fluid for Zalanthans, and nobody would find lesbian, bisexual or gay relationships odd.  Likewise, if you keep the 'plumbing' hidden, so to speak, there should be no reason to RP around the character in any way other than what they present themselves as.  On the other hand, things that are statistically odd or abnormal are often viewed in primitive societies (like Zalanthas) as bad: mutants, for instance.

So what about these two situations in particular:

1. Hermaphrodites.  Those with the plumbing of both. I, oddly, encounter these more often than you would think in the game.  My initial thought: this clearly is a mutation, so perhaps we would view these in the same way that we view other mutated individuals -- that is, there would be prejudice against it, but it wouldn't be as bad as say a breed.  On the other hand, in the OOC spirit that may have influenced the sexual fluidity premise innate to Zalanthas on the issue of sexuality and gender, I wonder if they wouldn't even bat an eye at such a case, especially in cases of realistic intersex characters.

2. Crossdressing.  Granted the recent 'in focus' on sartorial traditions, do Allanakis (to focus on just one group) have a particular prejudice against men dressing as women (provided they wear what is culturally appropriate for women in Allanak) or vice versa.  Or, maybe another way to put it, is there sartorial gender norms in Zalanthas (or Allanak in particular)?  My initial thought: There are certainly no such norms against women crossdressing as men, judging by the NPCs; and there probably shouldn't be such norms against men crossdressing as women.

[Patuk]

I play this game to chop mothafuckaz with bone swords, not debate the merits of things way outside the interests of my poor piece of shit characters.

[Riev]

Regarding #1 -
I've come across a decent portion of hermaphrodites in game, and I think its jarring to my PC to be thinking "gonna get laid, gonna get laid" and expect to see a something, and something else appears. Just like with anything, gotta manage expectations.

However, I would think that someone who can please -both- sexes, or do more things, would actually be considered more valuable... especially if it turns out the hermaphrodite can't have children.


Regarding #2 -
I think it comes down more to if a male looks GOOD in the dress, or makes it work. Most of Allanaki fashion covers the whole body, and is very skin tight, so I imagine a lot of "female dresses" would look very similar to some of the men's styles to begin with.

I think the western view of a "dress" or "gown" is something ruffly, or flowy, something that wouldn't really work in Allanak's supposed style. So if a guy walks in with a form-fitting outfit that has a bit of a flowing dress-like aesthetic? Well. Are the colors right? Does he look good in it?

[Raptor_Dan]

I've played both of these scenarios out with a few chars, and the responses from the playerbase, has always been the equivalent of a shrug. With the npc population, and interaction from the world in general, it's been less of a shrug, almost like asking, how does Zalanthas treat a char with purple hair. I've never seen any biases with my crossdressers, had someone make a vague comment concerning one article of clothing, but it was so vague and with so very little enthusiasm, that it can't be said it was even a negative comment.

Truly, do not worry too much about negative responses to identity, gender, sexuality or physiology. Everyone's more worried about how to use your char, than they are what your char is/has/does.

[Miradus]

I feel like this forum has gone way off the rails lately.

If you want to play something rare and obscure, then do so and take the IC consequences of that. Whatever they may be.

Don't turn my gritty desert survival game into a college social experiment. Play your character and just see what the heck happens with the characters you encounter.

[Riev]

I'm talking about calling talking about this subject 'a college social experiment'. Yes, that IS minimizing and erasing people.

And you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you're a he/she/it/zhe/hermaphrowhatever, but you want everyone to know that you are special.

You are flame-baiting us.

Note, here, that in a clinical phrasing, 'special' means 'abnormal'. As in, not normal. As in, quite actually, 'special snowflake'.

[In Dreams]

Even being someone who's very accepting and welcoming of this sort of topic and discussion, I believe it's become very overbearing to much of the forum right now. One thread was honestly enough.

[Lizzie]

Bardlyone, until the admin proclaims that males of a species can and do get pregnant and carry to term, and can and do lactate enough to feed their offspring exclusively off species-appropriate breast milk, then there is no gender equality. Males ARE different than females. They are NOT equal. Their "right and ability to serve their supreme overlord" is equal. Their right/ability to die in the arena for any reason or no reason at all is equal. Their right and ability to become a Merchant, Agent, Byn Sergeant, Advisor, Senior Lady/Lord, are all equal. However, a male CANNOT become Lady Fale. And a female CANNOT become Lord Borsail. Females CANNOT be "da" in Kurac, and males CANNOT be "di" in Kurac.

Not equal, not the same, but equal opportunity. Males can wear dresses, however their physiology is NOT THE SAME and therefore a dress tailored and sewn to compliment a woman's figure will look pretty silly on a male. And a woman in a codpiece will look just as silly, since women don't have penii in need of protection.

On the other hand, a dress fashioned to cover any body, with no particular emphasis on typical child-bearing curves that males are not capable of having (since they don't have child-bearing capabilities), can be worn by either gender, and no one should feel like they need to RP giving these characters odd looks for it.

People possessed of visible traits specific to both sexes - meaning, a penis and breasts that aren't the obvious result of obesity, or a vagina and a penis and natural balding - things that have to do with sex and hormones - are mutants, by definition of the game. The game gives us male or female. Both - is a mutation, just as neither is a mutation. So you need to accept that there will be PCs in the game that will treat your hermaphrodite as a mutant, once discovered, because that's what it is. And mutants are treated differently. There's a whole culture of them in Tuluk, and they were absolutely positively treated differently.

A character who lacks a penis and a vagina - would also be treated differently once discovered, for the same reason; it's a mutation, and that character is a mutant.

I don't see any problem with that, I don't see how it conflicts with the documentation. The only thing it conflicts with are players who want to play the exception, the "different," but expect their character to be treated the same. In Armageddon, different IS different. Embrace it. It makes for interesting RP.

[Delirium]

Even being someone who's very accepting and welcoming of this sort of topic and discussion, I believe it's become very overbearing to much of the forum right now. One thread was honestly enough.

[Nergal]

1. Hermaphrodites.  Those with the plumbing of both. I, oddly, encounter these more often than you would think in the game.  My initial thought: this clearly is a mutation, so perhaps we would view these in the same way that we view other mutated individuals -- that is, there would be prejudice against it, but it wouldn't be as bad as say a breed.  On the other hand, in the OOC spirit that may have influenced the sexual fluidity premise innate to Zalanthas on the issue of sexuality and gender, I wonder if they wouldn't even bat an eye at such a case, especially in cases of realistic intersex characters.

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

2. Crossdressing.  Granted the recent 'in focus' on sartorial traditions, do Allanakis (to focus on just one group) have a particular prejudice against men dressing as women (provided they wear what is culturally appropriate for women in Allanak) or vice versa.  Or, maybe another way to put it, is there sartorial gender norms in Zalanthas (or Allanak in particular)?  My initial thought: There are certainly no such norms against women crossdressing as men, judging by the NPCs; and there probably shouldn't be such norms against men crossdressing as women.

No. EDIT: It might be seen as odd to wear things that are not suited to your physiology, e.g. a male that appears completely male wearing a bra. However, things like high heels, skirts, etc are not sex-specific.

Thread locked temporarily as moderation occurs.
EDIT: Thread unlocked.

[Patuk]

Thanks. That was probably necessary, yeah.

[Marauder Moe]

I've been getting into medieval reenactment recently and one of the things that surprised me was how blurry the line between "male" and "female" clothing was back in the middle ages.

"Pants" weren't really a thing in Europe until like the 15th century.  There were hosen, socks that either went up to the knee or up to the crotch.  Both sexes wore them.

Men wore tunics, robes, or coats that flared out with hems that very often reached the knee or lower.  Structurally, not really different at all from a "dress".

Floral brocade spoke about your social status, not your gender.

There were some differences, sure, but in degrees (hemlines, necklines, fit) more often than qualitative.

[Malifaxis]

Bardlyone, until the admin proclaims that males of a species can and do get pregnant and carry to term, and can and do lactate enough to feed their offspring exclusively off species-appropriate breast milk, then there is no gender equality. Males ARE different than females. They are NOT equal. Their "right and ability to serve their supreme overlord" is equal. Their right/ability to die in the arena for any reason or no reason at all is equal. Their right and ability to become a Merchant, Agent, Byn Sergeant, Advisor, Senior Lady/Lord, are all equal. However, a male CANNOT become Lady Fale. And a female CANNOT become Lord Borsail. Females CANNOT be "da" in Kurac, and males CANNOT be "di" in Kurac.

Not equal, not the same, but equal opportunity. Males can wear dresses, however their physiology is NOT THE SAME and therefore a dress tailored and sewn to compliment a woman's figure will look pretty silly on a male. And a woman in a codpiece will look just as silly, since women don't have penii in need of protection.

On the other hand, a dress fashioned to cover any body, with no particular emphasis on typical child-bearing curves that males are not capable of having (since they don't have child-bearing capabilities), can be worn by either gender, and no one should feel like they need to RP giving these characters odd looks for it.

People possessed of visible traits specific to both sexes - meaning, a penis and breasts that aren't the obvious result of obesity, or a vagina and a penis and natural balding - things that have to do with sex and hormones - are mutants, by definition of the game. The game gives us male or female. Both - is a mutation, just as neither is a mutation. So you need to accept that there will be PCs in the game that will treat your hermaphrodite as a mutant, once discovered, because that's what it is. And mutants are treated differently. There's a whole culture of them in Tuluk, and they were absolutely positively treated differently.

A character who lacks a penis and a vagina - would also be treated differently once discovered, for the same reason; it's a mutation, and that character is a mutant.

I don't see any problem with that, I don't see how it conflicts with the documentation. The only thing it conflicts with are players who want to play the exception, the "different," but expect their character to be treated the same. In Armageddon, different IS different. Embrace it. It makes for interesting RP.

Or you can play what you want to play, and make being the best female Lord Borsail ever to Borsail your goal.  Which will also be interesting RP.

I have never appreciated players trying to impose limits on what others can play.  Hard documentation exists that d-elves can not be clanless, even though they must sometimes exist.  No documentation exists about males deciding to be called Lady Fale and executing the living shit out of anyone who calls them Lord.  I know a hetero woman at my workplace who corrects anyone who calls her miss or ma'am to call her sir instead.  Why?  She is a gamer, and likes the word sir because it implies honor.  That's all.  She didn't even need to fire (much less execute) anyone over it.

So get in there, get your Amos-di and your Tatiana-da on, and execute motherfuckers for fucking it up.

[Synthesis]

With respect to clothing, I'm more concerned about the game mechanics that dictate wearing your full set of battle-gear around at all times as the most reasonable course of action.

[Marauder Moe]

Man I could go on about armor too, but this is hardly the right thread.

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we're talking about mutations in Armageddon, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

However, a male CANNOT become Lady Fale. And a female CANNOT become Lord Borsail. Females CANNOT be "da" in Kurac, and males CANNOT be "di" in Kurac.

Says who? Your argument rests entirely on social convention. Di cannot be Da only if the House Heads are assholes with old ideas about sex and gender presentation.

But yeah, gender politics. I'd encourage anyone without much background on the subject to do some reading.

[Marauder Moe]

True hermaphrodism is a pretty exotic mutation here on Earth.  There are also certainly lots of real instances of skin pigmentation disorders and parasitic coinjoined twins that present as extra limbs (sometimes even functional).

I'm not really sure how you'd expect Zalanthan people to qualify "real world" and "fantasy" mutations.

[Jingo]

I say that mostly because I don't want the fantasy stigmas and prejudices we have in Zalanthas to parallel some of the actual stigmas and prejudices we have in the real world.

[Malken]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

Fixed

[Reiloth]

It's a mutation, plain and simple. That isn't meant as a dig. But it isn't normative in the human genetic scheme of things. Anything that is 1/2,000,000 or more (or even less, really) is considered a 'mutation'.

I don't mind seeing Hermaphrodites in Zalanthas. I just hope they have a background explaining it, and it isn't just something kinky to add to a mudsex scene. Like 'Oh, by the way I also have a penis, let's have fun with that'. If it's part of the PC, and part of their background, i'm totes fine with it.

I also don't think they should be normative -- As in frequent. That makes it not a mutation, it makes it commonplace. I don't think people should be making every PC a Hermaphrodite, or every other even. I guess to each their own -- If you -must- play one in order to play ArmageddonMUD, i'd rather you be playing than not. But i'd just advise playing them once in a blue moon, just as i'd recommend to someone not to continually play 'burglar' or the same PC concept in other ways.

[Malken]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

I don't think characters with these conditions should be on your list.

And you probably shouldn't ever call them mutants. Ever.

[Reiloth]

Oh, and as far as Crossdressing goes, I think that's very common. Or at least it isn't nearly as 'frowned upon' because gender roles are very fluid in Zalanthas. I've seen Male Templars wearing very feminine attire, as well as Nobles, and plenty of Commoners. I noticed it more especially in Tuluk, but no one every seemed to bat an eye.

It'd be weird to hear someone saying 'Did you see Amos? He was like wearing a skirt...Looked really woman-like'. It wouldn't be shameful for a man to wear woman's clothing, or for a woman to wear a man's clothing. There are 'masculine' objects -- Think of armor that accentuates the male pectorals, and doesn't leave room for breasts. But it isn't masculine in the sense of 'Me Conan, me buff and git gud', it's more that it's just oriented towards the male anatomy.

Similarly, a set of 'masculine shoes' could be worn by a woman, in an attempt to appear more 'masculine'. Just as a man could wear a skirt or revealing shirt/pants/what have you, to appear more 'feminine'. Neither should be looked down upon, or shameful!

[Reiloth]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

I don't think characters with these conditions should be on your list.

And you probably shouldn't ever call them mutants. Ever.

Err...I think you are applying a little too much of your own personal bias onto the subject. It is a mutation, or at least it is considered as such from a scientific standpoint. That isn't like...A bad thing? You can take it to mean it's derogatory or meant to hurt your feelings, but I don't think it is.

To a Zalanthan, anything that 'doesn't look like me' could possibly be a mutant. Or a weird looking Elf. Or a cross-breed with a Braxat, otherwise known as a mutant.

If a male PC looks between their legs and sees one penis, and looks between someone else's legs and sees a penis and a vagina, I think they are within their rights (as a Zalanthan with absolutely no idea what modern science is) to call the other person a mutant.