Hermaphrodites and Crossdressing

[nauta]

So, here's a question related to the discussion in another thread about gender presentation:

How would the average Zalanthan react to the 'T' in LGBTQ (or intersex)?

On the one hand, documentation is pretty clear that sexuality is fluid for Zalanthans, and nobody would find lesbian, bisexual or gay relationships odd.  Likewise, if you keep the 'plumbing' hidden, so to speak, there should be no reason to RP around the character in any way other than what they present themselves as.  On the other hand, things that are statistically odd or abnormal are often viewed in primitive societies (like Zalanthas) as bad: mutants, for instance.

So what about these two situations in particular:

1. Hermaphrodites.  Those with the plumbing of both. I, oddly, encounter these more often than you would think in the game.  My initial thought: this clearly is a mutation, so perhaps we would view these in the same way that we view other mutated individuals -- that is, there would be prejudice against it, but it wouldn't be as bad as say a breed.  On the other hand, in the OOC spirit that may have influenced the sexual fluidity premise innate to Zalanthas on the issue of sexuality and gender, I wonder if they wouldn't even bat an eye at such a case, especially in cases of realistic intersex characters.

2. Crossdressing.  Granted the recent 'in focus' on sartorial traditions, do Allanakis (to focus on just one group) have a particular prejudice against men dressing as women (provided they wear what is culturally appropriate for women in Allanak) or vice versa.  Or, maybe another way to put it, is there sartorial gender norms in Zalanthas (or Allanak in particular)?  My initial thought: There are certainly no such norms against women crossdressing as men, judging by the NPCs; and there probably shouldn't be such norms against men crossdressing as women.

[Patuk]

I play this game to chop mothafuckaz with bone swords, not debate the merits of things way outside the interests of my poor piece of shit characters.

[Riev]

Regarding #1 -
I've come across a decent portion of hermaphrodites in game, and I think its jarring to my PC to be thinking "gonna get laid, gonna get laid" and expect to see a something, and something else appears. Just like with anything, gotta manage expectations.

However, I would think that someone who can please -both- sexes, or do more things, would actually be considered more valuable... especially if it turns out the hermaphrodite can't have children.


Regarding #2 -
I think it comes down more to if a male looks GOOD in the dress, or makes it work. Most of Allanaki fashion covers the whole body, and is very skin tight, so I imagine a lot of "female dresses" would look very similar to some of the men's styles to begin with.

I think the western view of a "dress" or "gown" is something ruffly, or flowy, something that wouldn't really work in Allanak's supposed style. So if a guy walks in with a form-fitting outfit that has a bit of a flowing dress-like aesthetic? Well. Are the colors right? Does he look good in it?

[Raptor_Dan]

I've played both of these scenarios out with a few chars, and the responses from the playerbase, has always been the equivalent of a shrug. With the npc population, and interaction from the world in general, it's been less of a shrug, almost like asking, how does Zalanthas treat a char with purple hair. I've never seen any biases with my crossdressers, had someone make a vague comment concerning one article of clothing, but it was so vague and with so very little enthusiasm, that it can't be said it was even a negative comment.

Truly, do not worry too much about negative responses to identity, gender, sexuality or physiology. Everyone's more worried about how to use your char, than they are what your char is/has/does.

[Miradus]

I feel like this forum has gone way off the rails lately.

If you want to play something rare and obscure, then do so and take the IC consequences of that. Whatever they may be.

Don't turn my gritty desert survival game into a college social experiment. Play your character and just see what the heck happens with the characters you encounter.

[Riev]

I'm talking about calling talking about this subject 'a college social experiment'. Yes, that IS minimizing and erasing people.

And you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you're a he/she/it/zhe/hermaphrowhatever, but you want everyone to know that you are special.

You are flame-baiting us.

Note, here, that in a clinical phrasing, 'special' means 'abnormal'. As in, not normal. As in, quite actually, 'special snowflake'.

[In Dreams]

Even being someone who's very accepting and welcoming of this sort of topic and discussion, I believe it's become very overbearing to much of the forum right now. One thread was honestly enough.

[Lizzie]

Bardlyone, until the admin proclaims that males of a species can and do get pregnant and carry to term, and can and do lactate enough to feed their offspring exclusively off species-appropriate breast milk, then there is no gender equality. Males ARE different than females. They are NOT equal. Their "right and ability to serve their supreme overlord" is equal. Their right/ability to die in the arena for any reason or no reason at all is equal. Their right and ability to become a Merchant, Agent, Byn Sergeant, Advisor, Senior Lady/Lord, are all equal. However, a male CANNOT become Lady Fale. And a female CANNOT become Lord Borsail. Females CANNOT be "da" in Kurac, and males CANNOT be "di" in Kurac.

Not equal, not the same, but equal opportunity. Males can wear dresses, however their physiology is NOT THE SAME and therefore a dress tailored and sewn to compliment a woman's figure will look pretty silly on a male. And a woman in a codpiece will look just as silly, since women don't have penii in need of protection.

On the other hand, a dress fashioned to cover any body, with no particular emphasis on typical child-bearing curves that males are not capable of having (since they don't have child-bearing capabilities), can be worn by either gender, and no one should feel like they need to RP giving these characters odd looks for it.

People possessed of visible traits specific to both sexes - meaning, a penis and breasts that aren't the obvious result of obesity, or a vagina and a penis and natural balding - things that have to do with sex and hormones - are mutants, by definition of the game. The game gives us male or female. Both - is a mutation, just as neither is a mutation. So you need to accept that there will be PCs in the game that will treat your hermaphrodite as a mutant, once discovered, because that's what it is. And mutants are treated differently. There's a whole culture of them in Tuluk, and they were absolutely positively treated differently.

A character who lacks a penis and a vagina - would also be treated differently once discovered, for the same reason; it's a mutation, and that character is a mutant.

I don't see any problem with that, I don't see how it conflicts with the documentation. The only thing it conflicts with are players who want to play the exception, the "different," but expect their character to be treated the same. In Armageddon, different IS different. Embrace it. It makes for interesting RP.

[Delirium]

Even being someone who's very accepting and welcoming of this sort of topic and discussion, I believe it's become very overbearing to much of the forum right now. One thread was honestly enough.

[Nergal]

1. Hermaphrodites.  Those with the plumbing of both. I, oddly, encounter these more often than you would think in the game.  My initial thought: this clearly is a mutation, so perhaps we would view these in the same way that we view other mutated individuals -- that is, there would be prejudice against it, but it wouldn't be as bad as say a breed.  On the other hand, in the OOC spirit that may have influenced the sexual fluidity premise innate to Zalanthas on the issue of sexuality and gender, I wonder if they wouldn't even bat an eye at such a case, especially in cases of realistic intersex characters.

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

2. Crossdressing.  Granted the recent 'in focus' on sartorial traditions, do Allanakis (to focus on just one group) have a particular prejudice against men dressing as women (provided they wear what is culturally appropriate for women in Allanak) or vice versa.  Or, maybe another way to put it, is there sartorial gender norms in Zalanthas (or Allanak in particular)?  My initial thought: There are certainly no such norms against women crossdressing as men, judging by the NPCs; and there probably shouldn't be such norms against men crossdressing as women.

No. EDIT: It might be seen as odd to wear things that are not suited to your physiology, e.g. a male that appears completely male wearing a bra. However, things like high heels, skirts, etc are not sex-specific.

Thread locked temporarily as moderation occurs.
EDIT: Thread unlocked.

[Patuk]

Thanks. That was probably necessary, yeah.

[Marauder Moe]

I've been getting into medieval reenactment recently and one of the things that surprised me was how blurry the line between "male" and "female" clothing was back in the middle ages.

"Pants" weren't really a thing in Europe until like the 15th century.  There were hosen, socks that either went up to the knee or up to the crotch.  Both sexes wore them.

Men wore tunics, robes, or coats that flared out with hems that very often reached the knee or lower.  Structurally, not really different at all from a "dress".

Floral brocade spoke about your social status, not your gender.

There were some differences, sure, but in degrees (hemlines, necklines, fit) more often than qualitative.

[Malifaxis]

Bardlyone, until the admin proclaims that males of a species can and do get pregnant and carry to term, and can and do lactate enough to feed their offspring exclusively off species-appropriate breast milk, then there is no gender equality. Males ARE different than females. They are NOT equal. Their "right and ability to serve their supreme overlord" is equal. Their right/ability to die in the arena for any reason or no reason at all is equal. Their right and ability to become a Merchant, Agent, Byn Sergeant, Advisor, Senior Lady/Lord, are all equal. However, a male CANNOT become Lady Fale. And a female CANNOT become Lord Borsail. Females CANNOT be "da" in Kurac, and males CANNOT be "di" in Kurac.

Not equal, not the same, but equal opportunity. Males can wear dresses, however their physiology is NOT THE SAME and therefore a dress tailored and sewn to compliment a woman's figure will look pretty silly on a male. And a woman in a codpiece will look just as silly, since women don't have penii in need of protection.

On the other hand, a dress fashioned to cover any body, with no particular emphasis on typical child-bearing curves that males are not capable of having (since they don't have child-bearing capabilities), can be worn by either gender, and no one should feel like they need to RP giving these characters odd looks for it.

People possessed of visible traits specific to both sexes - meaning, a penis and breasts that aren't the obvious result of obesity, or a vagina and a penis and natural balding - things that have to do with sex and hormones - are mutants, by definition of the game. The game gives us male or female. Both - is a mutation, just as neither is a mutation. So you need to accept that there will be PCs in the game that will treat your hermaphrodite as a mutant, once discovered, because that's what it is. And mutants are treated differently. There's a whole culture of them in Tuluk, and they were absolutely positively treated differently.

A character who lacks a penis and a vagina - would also be treated differently once discovered, for the same reason; it's a mutation, and that character is a mutant.

I don't see any problem with that, I don't see how it conflicts with the documentation. The only thing it conflicts with are players who want to play the exception, the "different," but expect their character to be treated the same. In Armageddon, different IS different. Embrace it. It makes for interesting RP.

Or you can play what you want to play, and make being the best female Lord Borsail ever to Borsail your goal.  Which will also be interesting RP.

I have never appreciated players trying to impose limits on what others can play.  Hard documentation exists that d-elves can not be clanless, even though they must sometimes exist.  No documentation exists about males deciding to be called Lady Fale and executing the living shit out of anyone who calls them Lord.  I know a hetero woman at my workplace who corrects anyone who calls her miss or ma'am to call her sir instead.  Why?  She is a gamer, and likes the word sir because it implies honor.  That's all.  She didn't even need to fire (much less execute) anyone over it.

So get in there, get your Amos-di and your Tatiana-da on, and execute motherfuckers for fucking it up.

[Synthesis]

With respect to clothing, I'm more concerned about the game mechanics that dictate wearing your full set of battle-gear around at all times as the most reasonable course of action.

[Marauder Moe]

Man I could go on about armor too, but this is hardly the right thread.

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we're talking about mutations in Armageddon, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

However, a male CANNOT become Lady Fale. And a female CANNOT become Lord Borsail. Females CANNOT be "da" in Kurac, and males CANNOT be "di" in Kurac.

Says who? Your argument rests entirely on social convention. Di cannot be Da only if the House Heads are assholes with old ideas about sex and gender presentation.

But yeah, gender politics. I'd encourage anyone without much background on the subject to do some reading.

[Marauder Moe]

True hermaphrodism is a pretty exotic mutation here on Earth.  There are also certainly lots of real instances of skin pigmentation disorders and parasitic coinjoined twins that present as extra limbs (sometimes even functional).

I'm not really sure how you'd expect Zalanthan people to qualify "real world" and "fantasy" mutations.

[Jingo]

I say that mostly because I don't want the fantasy stigmas and prejudices we have in Zalanthas to parallel some of the actual stigmas and prejudices we have in the real world.

[Malken]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

Fixed

[Reiloth]

It's a mutation, plain and simple. That isn't meant as a dig. But it isn't normative in the human genetic scheme of things. Anything that is 1/2,000,000 or more (or even less, really) is considered a 'mutation'.

I don't mind seeing Hermaphrodites in Zalanthas. I just hope they have a background explaining it, and it isn't just something kinky to add to a mudsex scene. Like 'Oh, by the way I also have a penis, let's have fun with that'. If it's part of the PC, and part of their background, i'm totes fine with it.

I also don't think they should be normative -- As in frequent. That makes it not a mutation, it makes it commonplace. I don't think people should be making every PC a Hermaphrodite, or every other even. I guess to each their own -- If you -must- play one in order to play ArmageddonMUD, i'd rather you be playing than not. But i'd just advise playing them once in a blue moon, just as i'd recommend to someone not to continually play 'burglar' or the same PC concept in other ways.

[Malken]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

I don't think characters with these conditions should be on your list.

And you probably shouldn't ever call them mutants. Ever.

[Reiloth]

Oh, and as far as Crossdressing goes, I think that's very common. Or at least it isn't nearly as 'frowned upon' because gender roles are very fluid in Zalanthas. I've seen Male Templars wearing very feminine attire, as well as Nobles, and plenty of Commoners. I noticed it more especially in Tuluk, but no one every seemed to bat an eye.

It'd be weird to hear someone saying 'Did you see Amos? He was like wearing a skirt...Looked really woman-like'. It wouldn't be shameful for a man to wear woman's clothing, or for a woman to wear a man's clothing. There are 'masculine' objects -- Think of armor that accentuates the male pectorals, and doesn't leave room for breasts. But it isn't masculine in the sense of 'Me Conan, me buff and git gud', it's more that it's just oriented towards the male anatomy.

Similarly, a set of 'masculine shoes' could be worn by a woman, in an attempt to appear more 'masculine'. Just as a man could wear a skirt or revealing shirt/pants/what have you, to appear more 'feminine'. Neither should be looked down upon, or shameful!

[Reiloth]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

I don't think characters with these conditions should be on your list.

And you probably shouldn't ever call them mutants. Ever.

Err...I think you are applying a little too much of your own personal bias onto the subject. It is a mutation, or at least it is considered as such from a scientific standpoint. That isn't like...A bad thing? You can take it to mean it's derogatory or meant to hurt your feelings, but I don't think it is.

To a Zalanthan, anything that 'doesn't look like me' could possibly be a mutant. Or a weird looking Elf. Or a cross-breed with a Braxat, otherwise known as a mutant.

If a male PC looks between their legs and sees one penis, and looks between someone else's legs and sees a penis and a vagina, I think they are within their rights (as a Zalanthan with absolutely no idea what modern science is) to call the other person a mutant.

[BadSkeelz]

On Hermaphrodites,

My characters consistently treat it as a mutation, but a fairly minor one. In a world where you might meet someone who is half-beetle, half-lizard, has wings or three eyes or can summon the elemental forces of nature to destroy you, someone having unusual plumbing is not that big a deal. Especially if you find them subjectively personable or attractive anyway.

On crossdressing,

My representational of Zalanthas' gender roles (or lack thereof) is to not acknowledge the gender coding of clothing. The only time my characters comment on one's dress is when my PC thinks it might be interfering with the other's job. A woman wearing a dining gown out on spider patrol is going to get as much shit as a man doing it.

[Reiloth]

On Hermaphrodites,

My characters consistently treat it as a mutation, but a fairly minor one. In a world where you might meet someone who is half-beetle, half-lizard, has wings or three eyes or can summon the elemental forces of nature to destroy you, someone having unusual plumbing is not that big a deal. Especially if you find them subjectively personable or attractive anyway.

On crossdressing,

My representational of Zalanthas' gender roles (or lack thereof) is to not acknowledge the gender coding of clothing. The only time my characters comment on one's dress is when my PC thinks it might be interfering with the other's job. A woman wearing a dining gown out on spider patrol is going to get as much shit as a man doing it.

+1, maybe +2.

[Jingo]

Hermaphroditism is a mutation. Mutants are looked upon with varying levels of disdain depending on the mutation's severity - this is largely subjective and isn't really comparable to racism. Zalanthans would definitely notice and bat an eye.

Usually when we talk about mutations, we're talking about those exotic mutations like skin color, extra appendages and the like that we rarely see in the real world. I don't think we should plant real-world conditions along with the fantasy mutations we have on Zalanthas.

To quote yourself, says who?

True hermaphroditism is a very rare condition, therefore it is an exotic mutation.

Mutations in Zalanthas. GEEEEEZ

I didn't know there was a difference between Zalanthas mutations and the Real World mutations. Are we to assume then that hermaphroditism is a common mutation trait in Zalanthas?

If my character's goal is to eradicate all mutants in Allanak and I decide to murder a guy who has three penises, am I going to get reported to Staff?

I don't think characters with these conditions should be on your list.

And you probably shouldn't ever call them mutants. Ever.

Err...I think you are applying a little too much of your own personal bias onto the subject. It is a mutation, or at least it is considered as such from a scientific standpoint. That isn't like...A bad thing? You can take it to mean it's derogatory or meant to hurt your feelings, but I don't think it is.

To a Zalanthan, anything that 'doesn't look like me' could possibly be a mutant. Or a weird looking Elf. Or a cross-breed with a Braxat, otherwise known as a mutant.

If a male PC looks between their legs and sees one penis, and looks between someone else's legs and sees a penis and a vagina, I think they are within their rights (as a Zalanthan with absolutely no idea what modern science is) to call the other person a mutant.

No it's just I don't think we want to lump our fantasy mutants with conditions that people struggle with on a daily basis.

Sensitivity is part of it. It's also kind of dumb and stupid.

[Reiloth]

O_o

I fail to see how being OOCly sensitive to Intersex people translates to ICly being sensitive to Intersex people. Should we also not be racist towards Elves because racism as a concept is considered OOCly bigoted and backwards?

[Jingo]

O_o

I fail to see how being OOCly sensitive to Intersex people translates to ICly being sensitive to Intersex people. Should we also not be racist towards Elves because racism as a concept is considered OOCly bigoted and backwards?

No.

You should be racist to elves. You shouldn't be racist to characters with dark skin colors.

Discriminate against fantasy mutants. Do not discriminate against every congenital and non-congenital disorder just because they can be described as "mutant" with a bit of semantic twisting.

[Patuk]

Dude.

People in real life are born with six fingers. People in real life are born hunchbacks. People in real life are born as albinos. These things happen, and they're perfectly decent people, but in Zalanthas these are mutants, and mutants are dirty. Exceptions don't factor into that.

[Miradus]

Virtue signalling.

Let's just acknowledge Jingo is one hell of a good human being and ignore the rest of this crap.

[BadSkeelz]

I would disagree that "mutants are dirty" is a true blanket statement. This isn't 40K.

Mutants in Tuluk are not an uncommon sight and didn't warrant much of a reaction. They might even be given a little extra respect, as mutant legions played a notable role in the Liberation. Unfortunately I never met any PC mutants in Tuluk so I wasn't able to explore this indepth, but the number of mutant NPCs walking around unmolested (and well dressed, sometimes) doesn't suggest they're second class citizens.

The Silt Sea is also associated with mutations, so they're presumably more common in Red Storm. The people there tend not to want to get involved in anyone's private business, so a mutation doesn't attract much comment.

Mutants in Allanak probably get the roughest treatment, but even there I think there's a scale of reaction and that hermaphrodites/transexuals/whatever would fall on the lighter side of that scale. Extra digits, unusual skin or hair colors (like blue), extra limbs... none of these are unheard of or attract much attention. I don't see someone having sex organs "at odds" with their perceived sex to be much different. The only time I imagine it would attract comment is if you get them in to bed and you were really looking forward to Option A, but instead get Option B or C.

Again, we have much more serious things to freak out about and hate on.

[Jingo]

Dude.

People in real life are born with six fingers. People in real life are born hunchbacks. People in real life are born as albinos. These things happen, and they're perfectly decent people, but in Zalanthas these are mutants, and mutants are dirty. Exceptions don't factor into that.

I think the line is blurry. But it needs to exist. You actually came up with a few examples I hadn't considered.

Virtue signalling.

Let's just acknowledge Jingo is one hell of a good human being and ignore the rest of this crap.

Do you have an actual argument?

[Reiloth]

Exactly. I'm not using 'mutant' as a derogatory term, and actually I don't think most Zalanthans would use 'mutant' as a derogatory term (except for extreme mutations). I think it just means 'different than normal'. And for a Zalanthan, the normative might be very skewed towards 'looks just like me'.

So they might call a six-fingered half-elf a mutant, just because a) they aren't themselves a half-elf and b) they think people born with six fingers are mutants, simply because they themselves weren't born with six fingers on a hand.

I'm sorry, but if you want to play the 'congenital and non-congenital disorder' PC, my PC can react to them however they want to. There isn't acceptable social behavior surrounding these people in Zalanthas. There's just 'what my PC sees' and how they react. Don't worry, it probably won't be a bad reaction. But asking my gruff PC Bynner to be ICly sensitive to people who don't look like him/her based on OOC sensitivity is a little...Overbearing? To say the least.

[Miradus]

Do you have an actual argument?

Yeah. I made it awhile back.

You don't get to tell other players how to think.

Maybe staff will make a special role for you. Social Justice Storyteller, where you can stomp on any roleplay that might offend real-world sensibilities.

Until then we'll carry on doing whatever we do without worrying about what PC_Jingo may think.

[Jingo]

I'm sorry, but if you want to play the 'congenital and non-congenital disorder' PC, my PC can react to them however they want to. There isn't acceptable social behavior surrounding these people in Zalanthas. There's just 'what my PC sees' and how they react. Don't worry, it probably won't be a bad reaction. But asking my gruff PC Bynner to be ICly sensitive to people who don't look like him/her based on OOC sensitivity is a little...Overbearing? To say the least.

No it's just I don't think we want to lump our fantasy mutants with conditions that people struggle with on a daily basis.

I'm not even asking for sensitivity in character. Just don't drop them into the same group.

[Lutagar]

Y'all say no one would pay much attention to a mutation but I've got one word for you:

Catgirl

[BadSkeelz]

The only real sin about the catgirl was that she was a commoner who Tuluki nobles were fucking. That was the major taboo being broken. The mutation was (or should have been) incidental.

[Reiloth]

The only real sin about the catgirl was that she was a commoner who Tuluki nobles were fucking. That was the major taboo being broken. The mutation was (or should have been) incidental.

The mutation was incidental. It raised some eyebrows, but so does the 'winged mutant' and other sort of extreme mutations.

[Lutagar]

The only real sin about the catgirl was that she was a commoner who Tuluki nobles were fucking

Gonna kink shame and say this only happened BECAUSE of the mutation thus causing a significant reaction which is still legendary to this day.

[Jingo]

Do you have an actual argument?

Yeah. I made it awhile back.

You don't get to tell other players how to think.

Maybe staff will make a special role for you. Social Justice Storyteller, where you can stomp on any roleplay that might offend real-world sensibilities.

Until then we'll carry on doing whatever we do without worrying about what PC_Jingo may think.

Well you're free to reiterate it. Calling me an SJW isn't one, so you know.

[BadSkeelz]

The only real sin about the catgirl was that she was a commoner who Tuluki nobles were fucking. That was the major taboo being broken. The mutation was (or should have been) incidental.

The mutation was incidental. It raised some eyebrows, but so does the 'winged mutant' and other sort of extreme mutations.

That's what I thought. What I really meant to say is that it should have been incidental to the playerbase reaction, but "lol catgirls" is a common internet meme. I figure that's why she's as notorious as she is among the playerbase and not for the perfectly valid documentation-violations that the incident was really about.

The only real sin about the catgirl was that she was a commoner who Tuluki nobles were fucking

Gonna kink shame and say this only happened BECAUSE of the mutation thus causing a significant reaction which is still legendary to this day.

It was still a taboo that was broken and deserved punishment, even if she wasn't a mutant.

[Armaddict]

...you guys certainly take roleplaying to a whole other level than I do, for sure.

[Miradus]

...you guys certainly take roleplaying to a whole other level than I do, for sure.

Same. I've never seen any other character's genitals. Don't intend to either.

[Reiloth]

...you guys certainly take roleplaying to a whole other level than I do, for sure.

lol, I know...I'm mostly speculating, but this is so not something I think about really.

[Malken]

Hermaphrodism is a mutation and if I see one in game I will call it a mutant. You are free to go full SJW on me ICly if it bothers you.

If you are a buff male warrior fighting in a floral dress and high heels I will laugh IRL but it won't affect my character one bit. Fair enough?

[Molten Heart]

Y'all say no one would pay much attention to a mutation but I've got one word for you:

Catgirl

I've been resisting posting, but this thread reminds me of Angela Christine and a certain genital mutation she once posted about (maybe more than once? I've been searching but can't find it). It's etched in my memory and I'll never forget.

[Riev]

Hermaphrodism is a mutation and if I see one in game I will call it a mutant. You are free to go full SJW on me ICly if it bothers you.

If you are a buff male warrior fighting in a floral dress and high heels I will laugh IRL but it won't affect my character one bit. Fair enough?

I actually once laughed ICly at someone who showed up to the T'zai Byn wearing a dress. Wouldn't matter if it was female or male... it was kind of funny.

But if someone can kick your ass when they're in heels and a dress? Guess its time to beg forgiveness.

[Jingo]

Hermaphrodism is a mutation and if I see one in game I will call it a mutant. You are free to go full SJW on me ICly if it bothers you.

I think it's a problem with the word itself more than anything. It means onyx-sclera'd, whip-tailed buggaboo as much as it means a disease or condition. So I wouldn't use the term.

But rest easy, the tumblr police havn't been given a kill order. Yet.

If you are a buff male warrior fighting in a floral dress and high heels I will laugh IRL but it won't affect my character one bit. Fair enough?

I'm with badskeelz. I'd be wondering why the they're wearing it to battle in the first place..

[Jingo]

Y'all say no one would pay much attention to a mutation but I've got one word for you:

Catgirl

I've been resisting posting, but this thread reminds me of Angela Christine and a certain genital mutation she once posted about (maybe more than once? I've been searching but can't find it). It's etched in my memory and I'll never forget.

I think Barzalene had a hand in it too. Vagina Dentata. Do yourself a favor and don't do an image search.

[BadSkeelz]

The movie's kinda funny though.

[Delirium]

[Reiloth]

lol

[BadSkeelz]

ew, magick

[Reiloth]

It's just a campfire of WTF they're warming their hands on. Don't judge them based on the robe and hat, BadSkeelz.

[John]

Serious question here: Are some people feeling insecure now that Trump has been elected and are worried whether or not society is going to reverse course in becoming more accepting of people who aren't the typical person? This really feels like a need to shove people's social agenda down everyone else's throat with only a taken effort as to making it apply to Zalanthas. An extremely token effort. This thread could be discussing RL with little to no meaningful change.

I'll play my character. You play your character. If you feel like I'm acting inappropriately and bringing real life prejudices into the game, report me. I don't need to sit here for thread after thread to discuss the merits of treating <insert latest fringe member of the population that is on people's mind here> like X or like Y. Take it to off-topic if you're so desperate to discuss how society should treat such people.

[Feco]

...you guys certainly take roleplaying to a whole other level than I do, for sure.

Same. I've never seen any other character's genitals. Don't intend to either.

Except virtually, when I strip noob corpses for lootz.

[Jingo]

I think it's more telling when people raise their "don't tread on me" flags the moment these sorts of discussions come up.

[Malken]

I think it's more telling when people raise their "don't tread on me" flags the moment these sorts of discussions come up.

What do you mean by "people" ?

[whitt]

I think it's more telling when people raise their "don't tread on me" flags the moment these sorts of discussions come up.

What do you mean by "people" ?

It means they've run out of logic and decided to throw up the "agree with me or you must be a bigot" flag.

[Reiloth]

I'm just confused.

[WanderingOoze]

I'm just confused.

I've been confused since the thread with the poll in it and have just been sitting back in my lurker chair, eating popcorn the entire ride.

[Feco]

I'm just confused.

I've been confused since the thread with the poll in it and have just been sitting back in my lurker chair, eating popcorn the entire ride.

Yo tambien.

I mean, I get the topic.  But damn.  Shit went hard.

[Nergal]

Thread locked permanently now.

The topic has been discussed to death. Staff position on this should be clear by now.