The Massive Conflict Thread

[Lizzie]

Don't be a dick. You damn well know he can't just drop IC information on the gdb, and snarking about it gets nobody anywhere.

Jingo is the one snarking about his current IC issues with staff and players. We get it. I don't even know what the situation was that got him on the roll, but I totally get his beef.

But seriously, he needs to stop. He's making me not want to play, he's making a lot of people not want to play, because no one wants to end up in the game dealing with a Jingo PC whose player is going to shit-post on the GDB about them every time his character pisses someone off and ends up dead as a result.

And it seems to me, he does this with enough frequency that we ALL end up with a very high possibility of being involved in one of his PC's death.

I hate PKing other people, I'm bad at it, I panic, I emote on the way to the location, and emote when I'm finished, and generally don't emote, talk, or even think during it because I'm so focused on "omg I'm about to PK I'm gonna end up dead cause I don't know if there's a hidden guy watching him ready to kill me first". Me, the player, is going through that, while my character is there attempting to kill someone. So no, you'll get no emote from me. I do wish up to let the staff know after it's done, or whenever possible, I send a request before-hand to give them a head's up so they know it's what I'm planning.

MOST players don't go around randomly PKing for no reason. Raiders don't even do that, that's not what raiding is about. Raiding isn't murder - it's extortion. If the ONLY thing you're doing when you are a "raider" is PKing people, then you're doing it wrong, and you're not a raider at all.

HOWEVER - if you try to extort from your mark, and the mark gives you shit about it, then all bets are off.

Raider: "Give me a tribute to pass safely through this part of the desert."
Mark: "Fuck you."
Raider: "So you want to die instead then?"
Mark: "Your mother wears army boots."
Raider: kill mark

That is raiding, when the mark isn't cooperative.

Here's raiding, when the mark isn't cooperative, but at the very least, entertaining and potentially useful:

Mark: "But all I have is my mount and my shield, I'm out here trying to earn food for my poor family!"
Raider: "I'll take the shield then."
Mark: "Pllleeeease!"
Raider: beat the mark up a bit, take the shield, and warn him that next time he'll need to learn how to use a shield a little more efficiently if he plans on passing through without tribute.

If you're being randomly PKed for no reason send a complaint to staff. If you think it's staff that's doing it, send a complaint to staff and ask that someone OTHER than the staff member you're complaining about address the complaint. And try to be nice about it. If the person reading your complaint wasn't logged in when this happened, it's possible that yours will be the first he's even heard about it. If you come at him defensively or offensively - it's more likely than not he's going to take a defensive or offensive position before he even gets a chance to check out the logs.

[Lutagar]

We'd have alot more conflict if people treated eachother IG how they do on the GDB. My next PC will be made believing their opinions are the greatest, the most true, and the moral, rational, and logical while being condescending of everyone else's.

[Nergal]

I suppose it should come as no surprise that a thread about encouraging clan-vs-clan conflict would devolve into an argument about what players do or don't do to one another. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of players follow the rules, and respect the concept of roleplaying before killing or attempting to kill. There is no requirement at all that you should see this roleplay firsthand.

Conflict in this game will never work if you do not have trust in your fellow players. The official stance of staff is that we want to see conflict over various things: clan differences, cultural differences, racial differences, and so on. The talk of courtesy in player-vs-player conflict is confusing as a good chunk of interaction between players seems to be carebeary and cooperative, even in instances where it would be more beneficial to the player or to the organization to be in conflict. If there's anything that could kill the game, it would be that behavior proliferating across the entire playerbase.

Conflict will also never work if a good chunk of interaction stays in that carebeary form. Players' OOC fear of losing their characters (justified or not) translates into a lack of any conflict behavior, even behavior not likely to end in fatalities. So we see players with PCs with genuine care for rogue mages, other races and cultures, people in rival clans, etc. because they seem to think that even a slight tip into conflict territory will get them killed. Inter-clan play tends more toward alliance-forming than conflict-starting. The irony is that while only a few people in this thread seem to voice that phenomenon, it seems to be generally accepted by a much bigger chunk of the playerbase (including people who are vocally disagreeing in this thread on it).

The "be the change" phrase has been done to death over the years. It's gotten to a point where we don't expect that any player will be the change for the entire playerbase, although some are certainly trying. Instead, staff have already come up with ways to talk to players about following documentation, especially on cultural and clan differences, in a way that is 100% encouragement and 0% punitive. We want to encourage gradual conflict - that is, conflict that starts in a manner not likely to end in PKs, but could eventually get to that point if it continues. Staff want to start plots that will help with this as well, and we hope players will too. We want to see PCs call out other PCs in game when they ignore cultural and racial norms, or notify staff if it's too awkward to do that ICly (for example, if your character is a commoner and the deviant is a noble). We want to coach players on conflict and answer questions on how it can be started. We want to award karma to players that are not afraid to start conflict on their own and increase the overall tension in the game.

[Lutagar]

One suggestion I'd make for staff would be to empower city elves. City elves are so gimped being mean to them isn't even conflict, it's one-sided bullying, because everything that's supposed to empower them (tribes, numbers, being able to run etc) has been made virtual.

[Patuk]

[Making vague references to IC events also isn't allowed.

Sure it's allowed. It's the only thing that's allowed, barring things from a decade ago. It's unfortunate, but them's the rules.

The guy is using these vague references to in game events to support his stance that the playerbase (and apparently staff) suck. As someone who is part of the playerbase, I take exception to that. Vague booking is shitty behaviour because it lends the voice of authority to one argument without letting anyone respond because no-one actually knows what the guy is talking about because he's being oh so vague about it. It's used simply to lend authority to his posts about how shitty the playerbase is and I'll respond to that by telling him exactly what I think of his posts and behaviour. If I cross the line of acceptable behaviour, I'll accept my posts being edited and the potential temp ban that may follow. But I won't take the accusations on the cheek without saying anything in the defence of both myself and some of the finest players I've found in any roleplaying game (both online and offline).

Your words, not his. I'm sure Jingo could tell people they suck easily enough, if he really thought as much; I thought you were being a dick, so I noted that. Certainly you can tell people they're wrong without resorting to snark the way you did.

[Dar]

I havent read the entire thread. I promise I will, because it's awesome. But right now I've got some thoughts in my head I would like to pen down. I hope I'm not repeating something someone else already wrote. The suggestions I offer would require some coding. Or lots of it maybe. It might require attention to different NPCs, and adding extra clans to them for it to work. While a lot of other things can be simply rped out by players themselves.

So ... imagine this. Every game year, a massive Tek worshipping ritual is commenced with a White Robe heading it. During the ritual, there is an assistant task to the White that only one person can do. It could be something insignificant like holding a freaking candle, or significant like personal bloodletting, doesnt matter. The point is that the Robe chooses a person of one singular Noble House to be that assistant to him. Upon completion of the ritual, the Robe thanks the assistant and blesses his house with the Highlord's blessing. At that time, that house and all of its members (hopefully automatically, or by first doing it to the noble pc first), gets initiated into Clan_Favoured. It's important to note that the assistant can be an NPC, if the PC could not show up. Or even from an NPC house if all currently open houses suck.

The coded aspects of being favoured would be lower prices since every city merchant are actually part of favoured so they cut prices for them (Hopefully not by half, I dont know if this can be changed). Different ranks of favoured can become exempt from gate searches, or even become able to request the gates be open/closed. Barkeeps might be scripted to say something like, "Such an honor to have one of the favored in our establishment." This part relies on code. Crimes have different tiers, is it possible to make a certain clan immune to being wanted for a low tier crime? But generally, your imagination and code's flexibility is the limit on 'perks' that should be coded. A lot can be rped out as well, Kadius/Salarr/Kurac would be highly encouraged to sell certain items "only" to those currently favoured, even on the Noble level. People could give up their spot in line to the shopkeeper. Give up chairs at the bar, just general whatever.

How is the assistant chosen?

By player deeds! Be it parties, intrigue, faux pah, mudsex, Templar monthly recommendations,  Merchant House monthly Recommendations, Grandiose Arena games, Smart high-intrigue moves that somehow moves things. Even performing some highly covert thing by a low noble, then eventually telling of it their parent the high noble, with the story eventually turning into a half joke/half brag during a coffee and izdari game between a high noble and a red Robe would earn points. The NPC Leaders of Noble Houses would be aware of which house is currently winning the race, but not why and how. While the NPC Leaders of a Merchant house and possibly Guild would periodically and unreliably be hinted on why some particular decision making Templar was impressed, or dissapointed by some whatever house.

The Templars are already in a race for their own favor. So the noble houses can progress in their own race, by assisting the templars willing to support them, or cockblocking the templars whom are known to support the other.

I think this alone would create conflict and cause Nobles to actively seek out avenues of 'standing out and being noticed', which will hopefully involve the rest of the playerbase. Byn definitely included.

By year's end. There is another ritual and if a different house wins. The previous house gets stripped of Favoured rank and it goes to the next one.

Certain things can always be in effect.

Borsail always has two extra points for being a high tier House.
Oash always has two extra points for being a high tier House.
Oash loses two points for employing magickers.
Tor/Fale gets one extra point.
etc.

[Marauder Moe]

For pure deviousness and outstanding cruelty to elves, I award House Oash sixty points!

[Reiloth]

I do think having a petty reason to compete amongst themselves for favor with the Templarate is nice, but it'd be cool if it wasn't graded by points.

Having the Houses more fluid in their standing -- So it wasn't "House Borsail Always #1", but changed year by year, or every few years, depending on such a competition...That I could really get behind.

Part of the stagnation I think is not having these massive entities like Salarr or Noble Houses or so on -- But having them provide so much inertia that trying to change their standing or place in the world is nearly impossible. It has happened, and it will happen again, but the amount of effort required is pretty staggering.

For example, House Borsail fell into a lava pit and had to live somewhere else in the city for an incredibly long time. Now that they're back, it feels like nothing has changed. They're #1 again, there's some markers for historical notation (NPCs, objects), but it's kind of the come back of the century. Obviously -- There was quite a ton of stuff going on behind the scenes, between PCs, to reach that sort of outcome. But from the outside looking in, it's as if Borsail fell from #1 to #4, and then is back at #1, and that's that.

Having more fluidity -- Or risk of fluidity -- Sparks conflict. If Oash can edge out Borsail for that #1 spot, like, ever -- That enmity isn't just little snippy comments at the bar. It's a real deal, an actual dilemma. If Sath could suddenly vault itself up through some political back dealing, or Valika, and so on...Then it gives PC Houses something to band together against.

Just using the Noble Houses as an example here. I think conflict between Salarr/Kadius/Kurac has escalated in recent years, and i'm not seeing as much arbitrary hand holding. The less of that, the better!

[Taven]

I like the idea of some coded benefits to a higher ranking or status, which make achieving that status more appealing in a concrete way. I think this would greatly encourage competition, because there's an actual tangible benefit.

If it was because of an event with a templar's assistant, I don't think once an IC year would work. It's hard to get anything done in an IC year. I'd suggest maybe once every 3-4 IC years (about 2 times a RL year), with smaller goals and plots to earn the proper favor in the meanwhile.

The noble House rankings changing more fluidly with a more regular review and senate meeting could also be an option, if that would motivate people. But I kind of like the idea of the festival and the Highlord's favor, too, just because it's something more cultural, and it seems more unique and special.

[Jingo]

Dialing up competition for resources and titles creates other problems. Namely it rewards try-hard play styles and punishes players that are willing to play to weakness.

I like it on paper. But given how people "win" in this game, I don't want to see it.

[Taven]

Dialing up competition for resources and titles creates other problems. Namely it rewards try-hard play styles and punishes players that are willing to play to weakness.

I like it on paper. But given how people "win" in this game, I don't want to see it.

Yeah, but if the goal is to increase conflict, then increasing competition opportunities for tangible benefits does that.

Is there any conflict situation where "try hard play styles" aren't rewarded and "players willing to play weakness" aren't punished, in your view?

[Dar]

Reminds me of Tan Muark post destruction. So many views that conflict with each other, that nobody can decide on anything and in the end achieving nothing.

[Dar]

Relegating the status change to the senate isnt that good, because it requires a senate meeting. Normally, pretty massive changes happen after Senate meeting with scheming in preparation of sometimes taking over a RL year. It's just too rare and grandiose a thing to allow for a dynamic shift in favor and healthy competition. Senate is when top tier houses become middle and vice versa. Not a petty lateral promotion that I would hope to suggest.

It's true that dialing up on conflict makes playing roles of great influence require a go-getter, but ... that is extremely realistic. I do imagine there to be ways to discourage power gaming. Such as allying with rogue magickers to get shit done. Mainly because if you do this, you must keep it in secret even from your own house, for if you do not, the faux pah may cause a loss of such an intense amount of favor that your house will not be anywhere near a chance of becoming favoured.

Points is a loose thing, but a required one. Templar's power is point based in a sense, though what grants those points is an arbitrary judgement of the Red Robes and above. The beauty of points is that a house can have multiple ways of achieving the desired status. If it is a matter of reputation and influence of opinion, then a singular act can completely block you. While with points, even without backing of a major power, you can still win by gaining the support of a multitude of minor powers and preventing major powers from achieving consensus. This allows for all sorts of different gameplay and use of different tools. A House can potentially become favoured by only having the Guild as its ally and using it as an enforcer to beat both GMH into submission and even an occasional templar.  Or allying with one singular, but very talented and smart GMH PC Leader who could be a literal Kingmaker in that fashion.  All kinds of stuff is possible, if the paths to victory are varied and are not dependent on ONE singular thing.

Nothing is stopping a player from playing a noble that eschews all that rat race of chasing favor and just living to their heart's content. They just shouldnt be surprised that some newly created Noble of the same house that seems to start holding greater loyalty of your own employees, respect of templars, adoration of the masses and PCs wanting to join their banner. All of which somehow eluded that player's character for years, despite seniority. If after 10 years of being on the bottom of the potentials list, they suddenly somehow managed to almost reach it, or indeed reach it and strut around with free drink offers, all kinds of people trying to make friends in exchange for leechaway perks.

[Jingo]

Dialing up competition for resources and titles creates other problems. Namely it rewards try-hard play styles and punishes players that are willing to play to weakness.

I like it on paper. But given how people "win" in this game, I don't want to see it.

Yeah, but if the goal is to increase conflict, then increasing competition opportunities for tangible benefits does that.

Is there any conflict situation where "try hard play styles" aren't rewarded and "players willing to play weakness" aren't punished, in your view?

The catch 22 from a design perspective is obvious.

As it stands now, the incentive is to form alliances to work at goals and crush any troublesome outliers. I don't think added competition would much change the state of things as the incentives are largely the same. But then again I haven't really played in six months so I'm unsure about the current state of things.

But I'm wondering what would happen if we started rewarded players for making enemies and sowing chaos instead of just doing well at IC goals. The problem is that we're no longer rewarding people to work towards IC goals but to work towards the OOC goal of starting conflict.

I do actually have at least one idea in mind that I've been mulling about.

I'm thinking of a special type of role call. Not an antagonist PC per se. But a PC with the motivations and power to throw a wrench into the works.

Example: A skilled assassin makes it known that their services are available for the highest bidder. The assassin's goal is to make as much coin as possible regardless of how many bodies are left behind. They only have an IC year to pay off a very large debt.

The role has a term limit of three months. So unlike most powerful PC's they aren't playing the long game. They only have a limited amount of time to achieve their objective and their mandate should stir something up at the very least.

[Dar]

So you'd like to place a highly skilled character who's got absolutely nothing to lose into play, whose main income is PK, who cannot be really reasoned with and doesnt actually need anything except money?


As long as a player playing one such was responsible enough. Think more responsible then a player of a Mul for example. I'd be up for that.


Although unfortunately that does not help the creation of conflict thing in any way.

[Jingo]

So you'd like to place a highly skilled character who's got absolutely nothing to lose into play, whose main income is PK, who cannot be really reasoned with and doesnt actually need anything except money?


As long as a player playing one such was responsible enough. Think more responsible then a player of a Mul for example. I'd be up for that.


Although unfortunately that does not help the creation of conflict thing in any way.

I might be exaggerating a bit. It could just as easily be one or two high profile hits for a massive payout.

Or they might get caught and die in the arena.

[Taven]

One of your complaints, Jingo, is that people jump straight to death too easily. And that people with weaknesses are exploited by offering more reasons to engage in conflict.

How is introducing an assassin who has no objective except coin helping any of those problems?

[Jingo]

My primary complaint is that players are allergic to conflict. They'd pull a cheap win rather than slug it out. This system allows players to consolidate power and to marginalize and kill those that don't cooperate.

My suggestion is a way to introduce a power outside the pc-centric structure to chip away at the cement.

[Taven]

My primary complaint is that players are allergic to conflict. They'd pull a cheap win rather than slug it out. This system allows players to consolidate power and to marginalize and kill those that don't cooperate.

My suggestion is a way to introduce a power outside the pc-centric structure to chip away at the cement.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I would rather see players given more conflict opportunities, and not present death as the singular solution.

Instead of placing a special role with the intent of maximizing their kill-for-coin ratio by convincing players more people need to die for any reason at all (because they want coin and it's in their interests to convince people of that), I want more complex conflict. I want more reasons for complex conflict.

[Miradus]

Not to mention yanking the rug out from under all the other assassins (guild or independent) who would like to take the coin to commit some murder.

[Cind]

Put a small, non-disappearing deposit of iron in the sands, uncovered by the winds.

1. See how long it takes for people to notice.
2. See how long it takes for word to get to the powerful.
3. Watch them fight and kill each other over what amounts to maybe twenty pounds of iron.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rolecall for a small band working out of Storm, requiring at least two sorcerers/psions and three witches.

These would all be family and friends who hit the galactic lottery, a small group who just happen to have fat in all the wrong places.

Accept those who don't have a history of quick storing and don't have recent naughty things they did.

Give them an overwhelming reason to want one of the merchant houses dead.

[Miradus]

I really feel hampered by the rule that we can't disclose stuff that's going on.

Y'all need to drop by the Gaj occasionally and check the rumor board.

There's conflict up to your neck all around you all the time and everyone's complaining that they can't find it.

Come out of your mudsex apartments, come in off the sands, log on for more than 5 minutes every hour while you get your skill fails in ... and conflict will find YOU.

[Lizzie]

I really feel hampered by the rule that we can't disclose stuff that's going on.

Y'all need to drop by the Gaj occasionally and check the rumor board.

There's conflict up to your neck all around you all the time and everyone's complaining that they can't find it.

Come out of your mudsex apartments, come in off the sands, log on for more than 5 minutes every hour while you get your skill fails in ... and conflict will find YOU.

There's conflict, and there's conflict. There are little hints, currently, that there might possibly be something significant, though whatever it is, might just be something very INsignificant and trivial. It's only rumor board hints with the usual scripted feel:

"Word around the tavern is something might have happened. Some say it happened this way. Others say it happened that way. Still others insist it happened the other way. But what all agree on, is that someone was involved."

The star that fell the other month - THAT seemed like it was going to be game-changing. I don't know if it was or not. I have no idea if any of the current changes to the game, are the result of that falling star. I don't know what became of that plot line, or even if it was a plotline at all, or just a device to get others to create plotlines, which might or might not have actually been created.

What some of us mean by "massive" conflict - is war. Serious hard-core war between city-states. Or a coordinated effort by the desert elf tribes to invade and infest Allanak. Or maybe a new species shows up from "beyond the known" and demands to "see your leader."

Maybe a thrall or two. Or the resurrection of ancient scary clans (ALA, Sandas, etc). Something kickass, creepy, scary, heart-poundingly interesting that lasts longer than a typical Byn RPT.

[Bushranger]

What some of us mean by "massive" conflict - is war. Serious hard-core war between city-states. Or a coordinated effort by the desert elf tribes to invade and infest Allanak. Or maybe a new species shows up from "beyond the known" and demands to "see your leader."

Maybe a thrall or two. Or the resurrection of ancient scary clans (ALA, Sandas, etc). Something kickass, creepy, scary, heart-poundingly interesting that lasts longer than a typical Byn RPT.

"War. War never changes.
The end of the world occurred pretty much as we had predicted. Too many demihumans, not enough space or resources to go around. The details are trivial and pointless, the reasons, as always, purely Dragon ones." - Muk Utep

Good plan Lizzie, I agree.

[Patuk]

I really feel hampered by the rule that we can't disclose stuff that's going on.

Y'all need to drop by the Gaj occasionally and check the rumor board.

There's conflict up to your neck all around you all the time and everyone's complaining that they can't find it.

Come out of your mudsex apartments, come in off the sands, log on for more than 5 minutes every hour while you get your skill fails in ... and conflict will find YOU.

The star that fell the other month - THAT seemed like it was going to be game-changing. I don't know if it was or not. I have no idea if any of the current changes to the game, are the result of that falling star. I don't know what became of that plot line, or even if it was a plotline at all, or just a device to get others to create plotlines, which might or might not have actually been created.

This one saddened me, too.

It was so exciting! Staff posted on the gdb about it! Every rumor board in the game had something! And then.. Dud. The rumor boards note something along the lines of 'GMH's show up; wall off and cover up everything.'

So.. Yeah. Staff tried, I guess? I really wish it could've been more though.