The Massive Conflict Thread

[Akaramu]

I'm a phone sex operator IRL, to hear 'whore' as a gendered insult spat at a pc of mine (who objectively is not a whore)... frankly, I'll leave the clan, I'll store the character, etc. I have to deal with derogatory sexual BS every day in real life. I don't need that in my escapism. I would rather you just leave me be or pk me. Because it makes me hate the game. If I EVER saw it used in the same way against male pcs it'd be different, but I don't.

I don't think the term 'whore' should even be an insult IG unless you're attaching the label to a person of high birth. Prostitutes are common and pursuing a perfectly acceptable profession. Some of them are silky and rich and get invited to all the best parties.

Kanking an elf, yes. Whore, no.

[bardlyone]

I'm a phone sex operator IRL, to hear 'whore' as a gendered insult spat at a pc of mine (who objectively is not a whore)... frankly, I'll leave the clan, I'll store the character, etc. I have to deal with derogatory sexual BS every day in real life. I don't need that in my escapism. I would rather you just leave me be or pk me. Because it makes me hate the game. If I EVER saw it used in the same way against male pcs it'd be different, but I don't.

I don't think the term 'whore' should even be an insult IG unless you're attaching the label to a person of high birth. Prostitutes are common and pursuing a perfectly acceptable profession. Some of them are silky and rich and get invited to all the best parties.

Kanking an elf, yes. Whore, no.

You'd think. And yet it still happens. Often.

[Feco]

If you experience what you think is sexism in game, that's grounds for a player complaint.  Also, you should feel free to mock the sexist characters, because they're fucking wierdos.

This also applies to RL.

[Fathi]

I'm really torn about that. In 9 years of playing this game, only 1 time has any pc of mine fooled around with an elf.

And yet I can't count the number of times that has been used as a lie to discredit and make female pcs of mine look bad.

I would rather my character be killed than sexual shit used to punish a female pc of mine falsely at this point. If you can't come up with better than 'whore' or lies about whose been between their legs, just fucking off the character.

I'm a phone sex operator IRL, to hear 'whore' as a gendered insult spat at a pc of mine (who objectively is not a whore)... frankly, I'll leave the clan, I'll store the character, etc. I have to deal with derogatory sexual BS every day in real life. I don't need that in my escapism. I would rather you just leave me be or pk me. Because it makes me hate the game. If I EVER saw it used in the same way against male pcs it'd be different, but I don't.

This might be a bit of a derail so I'm not going to say much more other than YES, THIS, I AGREE SO MUCH WITH YOU.

On the subject of nonlethal plots, man, it's so tough. I have had some success with it, I think. I do wish the code supported kidnapping way more than it does, because while it IS possible, it's way riskier than frankly it should be because of some proclivities with our old code and the Way being a bit of a foil. There are methods to get past those proclivities, but I feel like it should be easier, darn it.

I also love authority figures who maim people who displease them rather than killing them. I always try to go for a toture/maim first if I must, unless there is some very specific reason why the character absolutely has to die.

Also I must say that I feel like players who do engage in nonlethal conflict resolution don't always get enough credit.

Often times that "backroom chatter" you're talking about IS nonlethal conflict resolution. People wheeling and dealing to avoid one having to step over the line of violence. Paying people off, convincing them to step down, forging tentative agreements, being mindful of one another's business turf, this is all shit I see in Armageddon all the time and frankly it's a little sad that some people don't see that as "good conflict roleplay" because it can be very tense and spawn a lot of plots even if it's just talking.

[Akaramu]

I can't say I really encountered 'sexism' (the obvious kind with insults being thrown around) with any of my PCs, but my one female sort-of military leader got shit on a lot for what I felt were very minor things that wouldn't even be mentioned if I was a male PC. God, so much whining and complaining (including, apparently, OOC complaints to staff). Especially when I tried to put people in their places.

Unfortunately I didn't have the IC authority to kill people, which would probably have earned me respect. 

[Patuk]

I can't say I really encountered 'sexism' (the obvious kind with insults being thrown around) with any of my PCs, but my one female sort-of military leader got shit on a lot for what I felt were very minor things that wouldn't even be mentioned if I was a male PC. God, so much whining and complaining (including, apparently, OOC complaints to staff). Especially when I tried to put people in their places.

Unfortunately I didn't have the IC authority to kill people, which would probably have earned me respect. 

Edited by Delirium: please don't troll.

[Miradus]

I scoff at your "IC authority".

[wizturbo]

Maybe just more violence that doesn't lead to death.  Beat someone unconscious and toss them naked in an alley.  Beat the crap out of their girlfriend and leave her in an alley.  Break into their apartment and murder their pet lizard.  Plant spice on them.  Throw a poisoned knife at them and run. 

Not all of it has to be political backstabby stuff.  In fact, I think commoners in general probably shouldn't be so susceptible to the old "kanked a halfbreed" rumor.  Or if anything, people shouldn't care so much.  Life is hard.  If you wanna get your rocks off humping a dirty halfbreed, unless you work for a merchant house or some respectable organization, who would really care?  I think it would be equivalent to knowing someone was cheating on their spouse in real life.  You might not think highly of them for it, but you're not likely to stab them in a bar over it unless you're the spouse in question.

[Riev]

The larger problem with "beat someone up" is that we go back to the Law and Crime code. REALLY, 2-3 big guys with fists beating on someone shouldn't be a Kill-All affair. And if you ARE good enough to attack someone in broad daylight, you either are going to kill a couple soldiers on your way to escaping (which gets Templars on your ass) or you weren't good enough in the first place and get cut down.

There is, for all we say it exists, very little to fear inside the city outside griefers or Templars. There is unfortunately no variation on violence. You either aren't being violent, or you are and the wrath of the city will be upon you.

I can't imagine a bunch of Bynners 'tok-stomping someone on the road would get much of anyone's attention. Shit, if I socked someone in the jaw in the bazaar I'd think most people would scatter away.

[Jingo]

For all the talk about conflict, gritty roleplay, grimdark edgyness etc. There does seem to be a remarkably small amount of intimidation and terrorizing in Armageddon.

[Reiloth]

Egads what have I done.

[Synthesis]

For all the talk about conflict, gritty roleplay, grimdark edgyness etc. There does seem to be a remarkably small amount of intimidation and terrorizing in Armageddon.

I've been PvP'ed 4 times in the last couple of months, so...I guess it depends on what YOU'RE doing as well as what other people are doing.

[Jingo]

For all the talk about conflict, gritty roleplay, grimdark edgyness etc. There does seem to be a remarkably small amount of intimidation and terrorizing in Armageddon.

I've been PvP'ed 4 times in the last couple of months, so...I guess it depends on what YOU'RE doing as well as what other people are doing.

I'm thinking something more along the lines of explicit threats or warnings. Idle or not. I don't think I've been threatened or warned once before I was attacked or killed. Which makes sense, since it has a way of putting a target on your back.

[Miradus]

I'm thinking something more along the lines of explicit threats or warnings. Idle or not. I don't think I've been threatened or warned once before I was attacked or killed. Which makes sense, since it has a way of putting a target on your back.

The only issue I've seen with that is that someone who is completely, IC-uninvolved with the conflict you're trying to generate will jump into that thinking they've got a free pkill opportunity.

[Dar]

I'm thinking something more along the lines of explicit threats or warnings. Idle or not. I don't think I've been threatened or warned once before I was attacked or killed. Which makes sense, since it has a way of putting a target on your back.

The only issue I've seen with that is that someone who is completely, IC-uninvolved with the conflict you're trying to generate will jump into that thinking they've got a free pkill opportunity.

Could you perhaps create a scenario where what you describe would happen? I dont understand the concept of what you're saying, Miradus.

[Miradus]

I guess I'm saying that conflict tends to escalate outside the bounds of what you ICly expect.

The dirty rinthi breed at the bar probably knows the aide of a noble and you'll end up being beaten half to death by the noble's bodyguards.

Or you will threaten some random guy out in the desert over a chalton and the next time you go to town you get beaten unconscious and stripped naked by the Byn while you're in the Gaj.

Neither of which has happened, I'm just trying to give you examples of what I'm talking about. It's a small, small world and I've noticed that (when I'm not some unknown indie out in the weeds) some minor IC event today will be Way'd back to me twelve different ways tomorrow when I log on.

[Narf]

I know you were just pulling examples off the tip of your tongue, but for reference "beaten up and stripped naked" is the Zalanthan equivalent of a slap on the wrist.

A light slap on the wrist.

A firmer one would be if they then left you in the desert somewhere distant.

[Rathustra]

I know you were just pulling examples off the tip of your tongue, but for reference "beaten up and stripped naked" is the Zalanthan equivalent of a slap on the wrist.

A light slap on the wrist.

A firmer one would be if they then left you in the desert somewhere distant.

I believe they're getting at they are put off by the fact that they can't perform what should be basic, everyday acts of conflict/aggression without getting a force multiplier in response.

Using Miradus' examples: a rinthi breed at the bar won't start something with an aide because they can assess the blowback from doing it, but even when the assessment seems clearer - such as warning some seemingly unclanned nobody off a chalton you want to hunt - you likely end up getting an overblown response (the byn beating you up).

If there's a situation in-game where every slight, no matter how small, results in a disproportionate consequence then there is a flattening effect on what situations will decide to act in an antagonistic way.

While it's natural for people to want to go and tell their friends that some guy told them to fuck off and leave a chalton alone, it just takes someone to disproportionately react to contribute to such things not happening in the future.

[Miradus]

That's exactly it!

[Delirium]

I know you were just pulling examples off the tip of your tongue, but for reference "beaten up and stripped naked" is the Zalanthan equivalent of a slap on the wrist.

A light slap on the wrist.

A firmer one would be if they then left you in the desert somewhere distant.

I believe they're getting at they are put off by the fact that they can't perform what should be basic, everyday acts of conflict/aggression without getting a force multiplier in response.

Using Miradus' examples: a rinthi breed at the bar won't start something with an aide because they can assess the blowback from doing it, but even when the assessment seems clearer - such as warning some seemingly unclanned nobody off a chalton you want to hunt - you likely end up getting an overblown response (the byn beating you up).

If there's a situation in-game where every slight, no matter how small, results in a disproportionate consequence then there is a flattening effect on what situations will decide to act in an antagonistic way.

While it's natural for people to want to go and tell their friends that some guy told them to fuck off and leave a chalton alone, it just takes someone to disproportionately react to contribute to such things not happening in the future.

Yeah. You more or less have to be in a position of power to be an antagonist, and even then you have to tread careful.

I do what I can to help the antagonists not get gangbanged by the playerbase, but it's tough.

[Is Friday]

What I personally wish was more of a thing in Armageddon was less death focused conflicts.  The solution to everyone's problem too often is 'kill so and so'.  While murder definitely has its place, it's not always the most entertaining.  Trying to humiliate your enemies, make them miserable, or sabotage their ambitions tends to create much more memorable interactions and leaves room for conflicts to percolate into something that can end in a more satisfying fountain of blood with juicy collateral damage.

The most satisfying rivalry I've had in game was between Kitt Borsail and Ru Fale for this reason. Most other rivalries I've had IG have felt stale in comparison.

[Synthesis]

For all the talk about conflict, gritty roleplay, grimdark edgyness etc. There does seem to be a remarkably small amount of intimidation and terrorizing in Armageddon.

I've been PvP'ed 4 times in the last couple of months, so...I guess it depends on what YOU'RE doing as well as what other people are doing.

I'm thinking something more along the lines of explicit threats or warnings. Idle or not. I don't think I've been threatened or warned once before I was attacked or killed. Which makes sense, since it has a way of putting a target on your back.

I said "pvp" because 2 of the episodes didn't involve any attacking, but definitely were aggro.  I.e. explicit threats or warnings, involving non-melee code of various sorts.  So...yes, exactly what you want to happen does happen, if you're willing to risk your ass to let it happen.

[wizturbo]

While it's natural for people to want to go and tell their friends that some guy told them to fuck off and leave a chalton alone, it just takes someone to disproportionately react to contribute to such things not happening in the future.

This hits the nail on the head.

And it's something of a vicious cycle.  Overt threats like this are rare because of these disproportionate responses, but because they're rare people tend to leap at the opportunity to get involved in a conflict, creating more disproportionate responses.

[Armaddict]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLKbcrC0krQ

What a terrible character.  What an overblown response.  The guy even wanted to talk.  This ruined the movie.

(Play your character, stop worrying about everyone else's and how they react to things.  It all webworks into the grand story.  Yours is not the focus, regardless of who you are.)

Edit:  (Which is not to say that some things are not overreactions, but every time you guys talk about overreactions you make it out like every time conflict actually -does- rise, it's scewing you.  You're either willing to play with conflict whether it's escalated or not, or you're not willing.  It seems to be the latter in most cases, which makes it so that less people are willing to do the former.  This isn't some new scenario within the game, and it's not what's destroying massive conflict for you, else we would have never had the two simultaneously before.)

[Shoka Windrunner]

Why do all discussions on the GDB become so disheartening?  It's like we take the pulpit on a conversation and change course to gripe about our feelings on X player or Y viewpoint.  Ah well. 

I liked Badskeelz suggestion of flattening out combat.  Lower caps, eliminate the grind, thrust yourself into danger and play a character, not a doppelgänger created to drive your self esteem.

Honestly, I think at least part of the time.  People get upset and start chucking arguements and naysaying out because this idea is something that would affect their way of playing in some manner, or what someone is saying makes someone think, "Hey they are talking about me!  Jerks!"  Or something similar even though that isn't the case.  Watch, someone will probably get offended by this post here and argue it.

Also the issue of people thinking that a certain point of view might allow them to score points with the Imms.

Also the whole, NOT IN MY BACKYARD, type mentality that makes people mostly hate, fear and fight change.

NOT ALWAYS, but I think there is a goodly percentage of threads/posts that are responded negatively too because of these thing above.

Please note I said not always.  (if you get offended by this post, you are kinda proving my point)