The Massive Conflict Thread

[SuchDragonWow]

What did you do to the Byn?

[TheWanderer]

I, umm... think I did it to you and your subordinates, actually. It was a long, long time ago in the October of 2015 where I ended up killing 2 (maybe 3) Bynners.

If it's any consolation, I've sincerely regretted it since. Even if events like those are the single most interesting things to happen in the Arena due to the actual threat of an unknown outcome.

The me of today is much firmer on the two routes and I'm fairly sure those were the only PCs I killed without offering an out. It weighs heavily upon me. : (

wait, i closed this thread.

[SuchDragonWow]

I thought it was fun.  I like to think the players who lost characters also had fun.  I liked the characters that died and my own character was angry about it, but shit happens.  I like to think people aren't treating their PCs so seriously that they're no longer having fun.

[In Dreams]

Look, you dumb butts. Don't go around indiscriminately killing characters. Open two common sense routes during the rise of conflict with one ending in the avoidance of death.

Whether that's a raider giving you the option of handing over your shit or dying, or a noble telling you to get on your knees or die.

Nobody actually thinks a completely random arrow to the throat is cool.

This. So, so much this.

[Armaddict]

Look, you dumb butts. Don't go around indiscriminately killing characters.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.  The thing that comes up as argued is whether or not 'indiscriminate' really means 'but I didn't want you to'.

No, you don't need to give someone a choice if they live or die.  Yes, doing so can possibly result in something cool, the same way their death can.
No, killing someone does not make you anti-roleplaying or against collaborative storytelling, as has been gone over time and time again.  If you suspect someone of killing indiscriminately just for jollies, then submit a player complaint and have it investigated.  There we go.

[In Dreams]

I don't disagree with you, Armaddict, but a PC's death should involve at least the amount of roleplay, emoting, or interaction that most good, experienced players would give the average chalton or scrab before it dies.

From firsthand experience, let me tell you that it doesn't always, and at least to me it's the single the worst possible experience to have on this game or anywhere else I've ever roleplayed.

[SuchDragonWow]

I dunno, I've enjoyed killing some characters.  It's funny when you give them every possible out, and they don't take it.  Hell, they usually spit on you like some kind of movie badass.  They die every time and I laugh.  If I give you like ten outs and you're like RAGE AGAINST THE MAChINE, I'm gonna laugh and it will be your own fault.

[Feco]

I dunno, I've enjoyed killing some characters.  It's funny when you give them every possible out, and they don't take it.  Hell, they usually spit on you like some kind of movie badass.  They die every time and I laugh.  If I give you like ten outs and you're like RAGE AGAINST THE MAChINE, I'm gonna laugh and it will be your own fault.

[TheWanderer]

Look, you dumb butts. Don't go around indiscriminately killing characters.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.  The thing that comes up as argued is whether or not 'indiscriminate' really means 'but I didn't want you to'.

No, you don't need to give someone a choice if they live or die.  Yes, doing so can possibly result in something cool, the same way their death can.
No, killing someone does not make you anti-roleplaying or against collaborative storytelling, as has been gone over time and time again.  If you suspect someone of killing indiscriminately just for jollies, then submit a player complaint and have it investigated.  There we go.

Ugh. I wish I wasn't doing this on a phone.

If you kill somebody, you should have a better reason to do so than, "time for hardcore shit, bruh." I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment that raiders axing random dudes in the desert helps the atmosphere of this game. I'd go ahead and wager this is one of the reasons the gith aren't available for play.

It's not interesting and it's not enjoyable to have somebody randomly kill you in a misguided attempt at introducing a grim experience.

At last count, I was directly responsible for 13+ PC deaths on the character with the Byn story. I'm not adverse to killing people, I just try to make sure there's solid reasoning due to their choices made through RP. Outs generally came in the form of being my bitch.

I approach conflict with the Tek complex: You keep your face in the dirt and do what I say, you live to serve another day.

[Armaddict]

If you kill somebody, you should have a better reason to do so than, "time for hardcore shit, bruh." I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment that raiders axing random dudes in the desert helps the atmosphere of this game. I'd go ahead and wager this is one of the reasons the gith aren't available for play.

It's not interesting and it's not enjoyable to have somebody randomly kill you in a misguided attempt at introducing a grim experience.

Yet again.  I don't think 'Time for hardcore shit bruh' is anyone's justification for killing anyone.  But just because you don't like being killed and they didn't draw out a giant scene for you does not mean it is reduced to bad roleplay or not having it's purpose in the game.  People die, people kill, people get manipulated, ideals are undermined, and so on.  If you think someone killed you for a willy-nilly reason, again, submit a complaint about it and move on rather than trying to form a blanket statement that infers that characters killing characters somehow equates to a tremendous responsibility or is an injustice towards the other player.

It can be investigated and determined if that's the case and they are, indeed, killing indiscriminately.  But you will literally never convince me that this game needs to cut back on characters having the 'valuation of life' similar to an african warlord for the sake of some people thinking it's mean or not fun.

At last count, I was directly responsible for 13+ PC deaths on the character with the Byn story. I'm not adverse to killing people, I just try to make sure there's solid reasoning due to their choices made through RP. Outs generally came in the form of being my bitch.

I approach conflict with the Tek complex: You keep your face in the dirt and do what I say, you live to serve another day.

Cool.  I think that's healthy and good.  But don't assume that because you got blindsided by someone who you don't know why they did it, it must be because they were doing it indiscriminately.  You should assume you don't know the reason, and if you suspect otherwise, bring it up.

That's all I've said.  Indiscriminate killing is bad, I agree.  Not all killing is bad, and just because you didn't have a choice doesn't mean you got screwed out of a narrative.  As a matter of fact, that means you were -probably- an important part of something that you had no idea about, to the point someone needed you out of the way.  And just because someone is acting off of an opportunity rather than spending weeks trying to set up an elaborate scene for you doesn't mean they're a shitty roleplayer; a lot of the 'third party death' in this game is worked for, but the actual event itself is completely unplanned and brought about by 'Holy shit, I can do it now.  I CAN DO IT NOW!'

But yeah. Nothing you just said changes anything that I said in the quote.

[TheWanderer]

Is this not the thread where people were supporting random arrows to the neck to make traveling "harsh" again?

Edit: oh, that was the blackmoon thread. hmm.

[Armaddict]

Is this not the thread where people were supporting random arrows to the neck to make traveling "harsh" again?

Could be the Blackmoon thread as well.  Either way, I don't disagree.  Start fearing other people in the sands.  Sorry you don't like arrows, but I think that's kind of the idea.  Sorry you don't like characters who view yours as an opportunity for prosperity in a non-political way, but I have no qualms with that.

However, that is not indiscriminate killing.  Nor is it lacking in roleplay, nor is it unfitting for the game world.  Again, if you suspect it is otherwise, submit a request asking them to look into that raider's practices.

I did an arrow to the neck in the last two years.  I'm sure that guy's pissed and thinks it was a random thing where someone just wanted to kill a PC.  Or maybe they connected the dots that they were a gemmed mage who threatened to curse people in public and someone higher up decided they shouldn't be kept around.

Regardless.  You can have your expectations, but just because you don't know the story behind things and you just see a death, don't assume that the roleplay around it was bad.

[In Dreams]

It's a choice, Armaddict. But it's one I'd rather go the other way on.

You can "DO IT, DO IT NOW WE CAN WIN NOW", but that's... a scary mentality to read on here openly and understand. It's the kind of the mentality that lowers the bar on roleplay and says, "I'd rather just code win than create a roleplaying experience. And I can justify it even if I know 100% it's going to be shit for other people". That's the kind of reason players don't trust each other. At its core that's the lowest common denominator.

I'm not saying you're wrong. What you say seems to be in line for a lot of peoples' expectations and vision for Armageddon, but it's also saddening because that's just not why I play roleplaying games. I'm not sure all the time that I really belong on this one with people who'll slot the codewin button in line before the emote just because it's permitted, but similar options are kind of few and far between, so I kind of am anyway.

[TheWanderer]

To Armaddict:
You see, I don't take issue with your assassination example because my personal prerequisites have been met. I do, however, take issue with Jack the Raider happening upon Joe the Grebber and immediately putting an arrow in his neck simply 'cause "I raid."

The outs I mentioned would come in the form of shaking him down (much like LoD's excerpts) and shooting him if he ran.

I think there's a certain responsibility as a veteran to try and ensure a somewhat enjoyable experience, as opposed to killing PCs simply because it's in line with the theme.

If you really miss surprise, completely unprovoked mantis heads, I guess you could send me your character information. I'll then go twink archery for a couple weeks until I'm ready to randomly pop you in the neck.

It's about in line with falling into a chasm. Thematic, but, umm... oddly lacking.

[Armaddict]

It's a choice, Armaddict. But it's one I'd rather go the other way on.

Fair, you can do so.  But don't think that because you chose it means everyone else has to, or that others need to feel guilty for deciding to end a threat that they can't figure out another way to.

that's... a scary mentality to read on here openly and understand.

I'm sorry, what about what was said should have been hidden subtly and made so that you didn't understand?

It's the kind of the mentality that lowers the bar on roleplay and says, "I'd rather just code win than create a roleplaying experience. And I can justify it even if I know 100% it's going to be shit for other people". That's the kind of reason players don't trust each other. At its core that's the lowest common denominator.

I disagree.  People living longer does not mean that roleplay is healthier.  Role-playing is exactly that, playing a role, and trying to insert the demand that others okay all of their character's goals and methods by you for it to be good roleplaying is a false standard.  Again, if you think someone is -not- roleplaying when they kill you, then by all means, send in a report.  Likewise, it's a permadeath game; every death is shitty in its own way.  It happening suddenly, which is what you're talking about, is jarring and unpleasant, regardless of whether it comes at the hands of a player who decided you were an opportunity, or an NPC who is programmed to see you as food.

The latter doesn't detract from the game world.  Neither does the former.  They exist within it.  It isn't the lowest common denominator (though I'm not sure that phrase even fits here) to play a character in a world that treats all characters in this way.  Even the nobles get rude awakenings and sudden deaths.

it's also saddening because that's just not why I play roleplaying games. I'm not sure all the time that I really belong on this one with people who'll hit the codewin button, but similar options are kind of few and far between, so I kind of am anyway.

See, this is fine.  But it's also what I was talking about with MUD versus MUSH.  It's not 'codewin' buttons, it's literally the interface that we're given in how to have the game put our actions into reality.  There are plenty of places in the game where you're more separated from these bits, but that's also a removal from a lot of the grit of the game; I don't say grit as in 'Zalanthas is a gritty place', but as in 'Armageddon is a -hard- game'.  You can't bypass that it's hard.  It's hard for veterans, it's hard for newbies, it's hard for everyone, because yes, the code does random wtf 'gotcha!' moments out of nowhere to remind you that -the game itself wants to kill your character permanently-.  We, the players, are not allies against this phenomenon, we're part of it.

You don't have to go elsewhere to get the roleplaying experience you like.  It's embedded right here as well.  Likewise, the way I'm describing is not the only way of doing things, as has been iterated throughout the thread.  I'm not saying 'F U guys, I'm going to kill all of you!'  That would be detracting from the game world just as much as removing the violence altogether.  Likewise, I'd like for you guys to not say 'F U guys, you just want to win every time you kill my character via programmed actions of the game'.  It's a MUD.  We're mostly autonomous entities inside of it, able to affect, interact with, and experience the world within it through commands and code.  Just because sometimes that's just as much against another player as an NPC baddy coming at you doesn't suddenly shift it into a bad practice.

To make a new perspective, realize that this isn't me being defensive; I'm very secure in my contributions to the game and plots and my rationale behind actions taken IC.  But I'm vocal so that other dude reading this thread knows that his concern over his raider getting killed for raiding is -fine-, and he's absolutely -fine- being a raider who kills his targets.  He'll probably die horribly, but he's not behaving out of character because he's learned some good survival tricks in combat.  He's not a terrible roleplayer because he tries to keep his target from getting away.  He's contributing to the game world when he makes someone realize not everyone out in the sands is a friendly hunting buddy.  Let the staff deal with who's doing things badly and ruining the game, don't try to shame someone else who is actually bringing their own little conflict into the game.  I'm sorry if it's not in the method -you- would like, but...it -is- collaborative, as noted.  Their way is just as present and viable as yours until they're showing that they can't understand the role they're trying to play.

The only difference between you and me isn't that I think death needs to be everywhere and you don't; it's that you think whenever death comes about, it has to be in a very particular way, and I don't.  It just isn't that important unless it's actual abuse...which again, we know how to take care of.

TheWanderer(Edit here, fixed an autocorrect) said: STUFF (I only write it this way because I'm not a person who fiddles with quotes, I just click the button, and I wanted to be sure you saw your name here to know I was responding to you).

For the most part, you aren't saying anything that I think anyone would disagree with.  Perhaps the only thing to swing on is 'Raider -must- do things this way', where I say that makes it ideal, but is -not- necessary for them to be playing as a raider.

Again.  You think things have to be done a certain way.  I don't.  I think people need to play their character, interact with the world via whatever medium they choose, and do so responsibly.  That's it.

[WithSprinkles]

It's not a scary mentality at all to me. Killing someone doesn't have to be "I win".

People sometimes spend RL days, weeks, months trying to corner someone and give them a scene and things either KEEP GOING WRONG or the target(s) rabbit or turtle every chance they get. That's their right EVERY BIT as much as it is the right of someone to take advantage of a weak moment and do them in. It goes both ways. If your character can't get out of trouble other than ducking and covering and praying the boogie man isn't going to get them, expect to get clubbed like someone is playing Whack-a-Mole next time they pop their head out. I'll defend your right to do it every bit as much as I defend the killer who takes you out. But try give other players a chance. There are plenty of times I thought I was going to die in game and stood there with my character's head held high (or cowered like a punk) while I was freaking out at the keyboard and thinking of what my next character would be -- and survived the encounter because RP. Play it out.

Can't say I'm perfect. I've run at times too. Felt a bit cruddy when I bolted, but that's just me. Always felt a bit like a champ when I stayed. I am not going to force that view or stance on anyone because sometimes you just hit e,e,e,e,e,e in a panic and then say.. "Oh, shit..." after the adrenaline fades. If you run, expect people to be as lenient on you as if you were a perp and you made a cop chase your ass.

In the end, this is a game. So long as we aren't cheating OOCly, then there shouldn't be a question on how fists are flying. Kill and file the report. Got beef after, file a complaint. Undrstand that IG, if you knock someone weak down, their big brother might tap you on your shoulder and knock you the fuck out. This talk of sparing people from conflict.. I'm not sure I'm following it correctly.

I thought we were in a "Talk Shit, Get Hit" world in Zalanthas. I understand letting conflict organically grow and nurturing enemies and all that. Not killing willy-nilly. But from past experience, you bust someone's lip or otherwise put someone in their place, they KEEP ESCALATING and then they possibly wonder why they're on the pile afterward. But YOU'RE the bad guy because you hit an "I WIN" button by killing them? Even if you'd let them go previously and they came back at you like a boomerang? Fine.

[John]

I've lately looked at the GDB and been sort of disappointed to see people vocally expressing how the other players in this community are crap.

The only thing to do is to call people out on the crap they're peddling. If they truly distrusted the playerbase as much as their posts indicate, there'd be no point playing the game.

No trust means no risks taken and means no fun for Jingo.

Sounds like Jingo is using a lack of trust to either justify Jingo's own bad behaviour or to bitch about having to engage in aspects of the game that for whatever reason Jingo doesn't want to. Either way, this game has conflict. This game has murder. Sometimes you're going to be impacted by negative play simply so someone can establish their superiority over you. Sometimes you'll be engaged with by code first emoting second because you have something someone desperately needs and they want to maximize their chance at getting it from you. If you're unwilling to play the game as it is, that's your choice. Bitching about it is not achieving anything except souring how people feel about the game and their fellow players.

Don't go around indiscriminately killing characters.

let me tell you that it doesn't always, and at least to me it's the single the worst possible experience to have on this game or anywhere else I've ever roleplayed.

If you kill somebody, you should have a better reason to do so than, "time for hardcore shit, bruh."

If you believe anyone is doing this, report them. Vague booking on the GDB about it does not contribute anything positive to the game.

Is this not the thread where people were supporting random arrows to the neck to make traveling "harsh" again?

Nope. I don't support random arrows to the neck for the sole reason of making the game harsh. I do support purposeful arrows to the neck because the person shooting you wants or needs something you have. That's not the same thing you've been bitching about in the quotes above.

"I'd rather just code win than create a roleplaying experience. And I can justify it even if I know 100% it's going to be shit for other people". That's the kind of reason players don't trust each other.

Sometimes engaging in the code in order to kill someone is an appropriate and IC response to the situation. You can dress it up with language such as "people are using the code win button" and complain about the lack of "roleplaying experience". But sometimes creating an ornate scene where someone is tormented for IC hours on end is not an ICly appropriate course of action to take. Sometimes the backstab to the back is the appropriate course of IC action. I hear you say that's not fair? The game isn't fair. There are no free meals. Welcome to Armageddon.

At its core that's the lowest common denominator.

Using code, any code, as your sole means of interacting with the game world is the lowest common denominator. Accusing someone of being the lowest common denominator because they did something that you didn't like is unnecessarily judgemental. But if you truly distrust your fellow players that much, report them. I've had players with karma engage in me with code as their opening assault, and I trusted in that player to have their reasons for doing so. If you don't have that trust, that's on you. Either get over your butthurt or report the player in question you SUSPECT of engaging in poor play.

[In Dreams]

Okaaaay, well you win! Like I said above, I know I just belong on a different platform than this one anyway. So I should just find one that fits me better. I will.

Thank you, and au revoir!

[Jingo]

No trust means no risks taken and means no fun for Jingo.

Sounds like Jingo is using a lack of trust to either justify Jingo's own bad behaviour or to bitch about having to engage in aspects of the game that for whatever reason Jingo doesn't want to. Either way, this game has conflict. This game has murder. Sometimes you're going to be impacted by negative play simply so someone can establish their superiority over you. Sometimes you'll be engaged with by code first emoting second because you have something someone desperately needs and they want to maximize their chance at getting it from you. If you're unwilling to play the game as it is, that's your choice. Bitching about it is not achieving anything except souring how people feel about the game and their fellow players.

I'll try not to make assumptions about your motivations and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about mine.

And I'll bitch about whatever I want. And all the louder if I can't play the way I want to play because of the way others play. I'm sick of routinely being disappointed when I know I could just drop myself to a substandard level of play and avoid virtually all risk.

That's it. That's literally everything that gets Jingo butthurt.

[John]

If you truly distrust your players as much as your posts indicate, put in player complaints. If you don't distrust players as much as your posts indicate, I don't understand why you're posting in such a negative way. Especially when it's impacting other people's enjoyment of the game.

[Jingo]

If it were a problem player complaints could solve. Unfortunately staff are more interested in enforcing explicit rule breaking. And not the other ways players ruin the game for others.

[John]

If it were a problem player complaints could solve. Unfortunately staff are more interested in enforcing explicit rule breaking. And not the other ways players ruin the game for others.

Oh look. More vague booking  Guess your bad opinion of others doesn't extend to just players  Enjoy the game. I'll be sure to avoid you if I ever find out who you play. Wouldn't want to impinge on your so awesome roleplaying that can't survive contact with anyone else.

[LauraMars]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

Rule 2. Follow it. Stop being shitty to each other. Thanks.

[Patuk]

Don't be a dick. You damn well know he can't just drop IC information on the gdb, and snarking about it gets nobody anywhere.

[John]

You damn well know he can't just drop IC information on the gdb

Making vague references to IC events also isn't allowed.

The guy is using these vague references to in game events to support his stance that the playerbase (and apparently staff) suck. As someone who is part of the playerbase, I take exception to that. Vague booking is shitty behaviour because it lends the voice of authority to one argument without letting anyone respond because no-one actually knows what the guy is talking about because he's being oh so vague about it. It's used simply to lend authority to his posts about how shitty the playerbase is and I'll respond to that by telling him exactly what I think of his posts and behaviour. If I cross the line of acceptable behaviour, I'll accept my posts being edited and the potential temp ban that may follow. But I won't take the accusations on the cheek without saying anything in the defence of both myself and some of the finest players I've found in any roleplaying game (both online and offline).