Elves: The Thread

[RogueGunslinger]

This dumb thread is making me want to play an elf, damnit.

[Armaddict]

This dumb thread is making me want to play an elf, damnit.

For what it's worth, I think you'd play a pretty fantastic elf if you got immersed into the mindset.  I think most people would.  It's just...a lot different sort of satisfaction than the more straightforward success stories.  Just find a way to live long enough until you have people you can manipulate for your ends (not necessarily to their detriment; this is a major problem people have with elves imo, is that they think they have to be constantly fucking people to be doing it right.), and I think you'd do great.

[Only He Stands There]

(not necessarily to their detriment; this is a major problem people have with elves imo, is that they think they have to be constantly fucking people to be doing it right.)

This is so true, right here.

Elves pride themselves on the nebulous concept of "theft," but the mental gymnastics they perform to make everything fit that can be pretty amazing. The "long con" is often far more rewarding than the short con, and if that "long con" happens to result in some non-standard "theft," even better. A lot of it can fall under the blanket umbrella of "receiving something usually reserved for humans," be it respect, admiration, safety, friendship, even love - or things as nebulous a concept as knowledge. "I learned how to get X poison and perform Y technique during my stint in the Byn, which will further my tribe (or just me)."

It's a very, very interesting role if you take it and run with it (yay puns!). And, in my experience, while people don't necessarily soften the racism just for you, when they see you're playing an elf that's not a straight up "let's overtly and obviously fuck everyone over every single chance we get" type, they tend to interact with you a LOT more.

[Hauwke]

I think many people play humans, in the same way I would play an elf. A coniving piece of shit, that while not technically evil is still very much an asshole at times. Not 24/7 mind you, at home he is kanking the tressy elves, but in the public he is a coniving son of a bitch that makes an effort to have everyone give him things.

Not a fast fingered asshole. (Lol) but a fast talking asshole basically.

[Dresan]

I would really rather see elves changed so they can join and enjoy playing in more current city clans rather than add more niche tribes/clans to the game. The same way dwarves/half-elves 'fit' in with racism and predujices mixed in. I really feel bringing in a city elf only clan/tribe will hurt the game, while at the same time not really improve the city elf experience very much at all either. They can already join byn and kurac( just like obvious half-elves), and it hasn't really helped them much.

If a race regardless of role is having trouble joining the RPT the staff enjoys putting together in the middle of nowhare, perhaps thats something that should get looked at from a game design playability perspective.

[Reiloth]

I would really rather see elves changed so they can join and enjoy playing in more current city clans rather than add more niche tribes/clans to the game. The same way dwarves/half-elves 'fit' in with racism and predujices mixed in. I really feel bringing in a city elf only clan/tribe will hurt the game, while at the same time not really improve the city elf experience very much at all either. They can already join byn and kurac( just like obvious half-elves), and it hasn't really helped them much.

If a race regardless of role is having trouble joining the RPT the staff enjoys putting together in the middle of nowhare, perhaps thats something that should get looked at from a game design playability perspective.

Fair point.

[Only He Stands There]

I'm honestly inclined to agree, as well. Wider interaction opportunities are better than more-but-narrower interaction opportunities.

[Hauwke]

I would personally like to see more across the board racism, eg people actually hating on people for the 'right' reasons.

Elves = slippery bastards.
Dwarves = Single-minded obsessive nutjobs.
Half-giants = Low intelligence 'bumbling fools'

[Doublepalli]

I am against infravision. Because, it's infravision - which means you can see anyone - maxed out hide/sneak with sneak gear too, without scan. Screw that. That makes elves way too powerful.

[Hauwke]

Well I would assume it would be more like Night Vision if it was given. Or you know like what elves have in D&D. Low light vision.

[Case]

I think the best way to handle racism IG is to allow inclusion but be discriminatory - only human officers, different racial pay grades, preference on humans, without fully excluding the would be lesser races except on a PC leader by PC leader basis. That's more or less how racism manifests IRL. Full exclusion means that the lines between races are much more delineated and seem to result in RP exclusion as well as fewer PCs playing these races.

I don't see any issues with making elves and helves useful in a clan sense while making them the kicked dogs - that's how it should be giants and dwarves too.

For races like dwarves or giants, you could create an intelligence stigma by having their max language at 95% or so. I do think that dwarves need greater penalty than is currently given, and celfs given less.

Dwarves/helves are also much rarer than elves. Elves are a mass population. People should be able to relate to elves better. They don't cloister, and they seem inclined to interact with the other populations.

[650Booger]

there should be a sliding scale of animosity by humans towards elves.  the low end being 'I don't really have a problem with them' and the high end being 'I will attempt to cause the demise of every elf I come into contact with', with every human character falling somewhere in the scale, but not necessarily at either extreme.  there shouldn't be one anti-elf behavioral doctrine that everybody has to follow. 

this is pretty much how it is now, so I am happy.

[Dresan]

Lets compare elves to half-elves for a moment:

• Half-elves have no tribes or clans of their own.
• Half-elves are treated absolutely horribly by both Humans and Elves.
• Half-elves can also only join byn and Kurac.
• Half-elves have confusing RP not even the staff can always fully agree on, because half-elves are crazy and bi-polar. How much so is left up to the players
• Half-elves aren't really known for their amazing stats either in comparison to human and dwarves.

Yet we have threads along these lines:  'There are too many half-elves' , 'there are too many people kanking breeds', 'Hi this is staff, please keep in mind there are downsides to playing half-elves, only mentioning this cuz we see alot of them recently'.

I agree that elven RP needing to be some sort of  theif or con artist thing is kind of annoying but again not sure that is their main problem. Frankly, I would say being very city-bound both RP-wise and mechanically is the core of the problem. I believe staff have said before they don't intend to change this, instead improve the condition of c-elves in the city (history has proven can turn out to be a terrible idea for everyone). To be fair though, staff once said warriors would never get backstab or close Tuluk. However, things change and thats really a good thing.    

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the best way to handle racism IG is to allow inclusion but be discriminatory - only human officers, different racial pay grades, preference on humans, without fully excluding the would be lesser races except on a PC leader by PC leader basis. That's more or less how racism manifests IRL. Full exclusion means that the lines between races are much more delineated and seem to result in RP exclusion as well as fewer PCs playing these races.

I don't see any issues with making elves and helves useful in a clan sense while making them the kicked dogs - that's how it should be giants and dwarves too.

For races like dwarves or giants, you could create an intelligence stigma by having their max language at 95% or so. I do think that dwarves need greater penalty than is currently given, and celfs given less.

Dwarves/helves are also much rarer than elves. Elves are a mass population. People should be able to relate to elves better. They don't cloister, and they seem inclined to interact with the other populations.

All my yes. Well put.

[Hauwke]

Case is pretty much spot on, with how the best of all worlds would be with it. I believe that while an elf will work for money, they will probably rip their employer off if they were able to in anyway, but given the fact they actually have a job they may only rip them off a few sids each time perhaps.

As for joining all clans, not quite all I dont think. E.g. the Arm of the Dragon is historically human/half-giant only. And I have never seen an example of them using elves in any function. All the other clans use elves, as slaves sure, but still use them.

[Case]

Case is pretty much spot on, with how the best of all worlds would be with it. I believe that while an elf will work for money, they will probably rip their employer off if they were able to in anyway, but given the fact they actually have a job they may only rip them off a few sids each time perhaps.

As for joining all clans, not quite all I dont think. E.g. the Arm of the Dragon is historically human/half-giant only. And I have never seen an example of them using elves in any function. All the other clans use elves, as slaves sure, but still use them.

Elves are terrible slaves.

[Jingo]

The thread should be renamed.

Elves: The Eternal Thread

[BrokenRomance]

I am much too lazy this late (been out fishin') to quote the exact posts I saw it in, but anyway...

I actually like the somewhat singular area of a clan for RP. It makes it challenged to me, so I'm still like 100% for coded celf tribes.

[Hauwke]

I have seen plenty of coded groups sdesced as slaves while the full desc lists them as being elves and such mixed in.


Aside, I agree they make terrible slaves too weak to lift that noble and his fat ass girlfriend.

[Case]

I have seen plenty of coded groups sdesced as slaves while the full desc lists them as being elves and such mixed in.


Aside, I agree they make terrible slaves too weak to lift that noble and his fat ass girlfriend.

They complain and try run away. In Allanak, half the humans are slaves, and only 10% of the elves. The elvish population isn't much smaller than the human one. Elves just don't do slavery well - smart, tribe focused and cunning. Escaping becomes the theft.

[Dresan]

If c-elves could have a ability to run, we would not be seeing these threads every couple of months. They would still not be able to become rangers, so they will never be as OP as desert elves.  C-elves can already roll warrior with extended sub-guilds and its not breaking the game.

The only thing this would allow them to do is get to luirs, be more useful when patrolling/hunting with your kuraci/byn crew and enjoy RPTs without fustration. It is not like c-elves don't try to manage this already but the game makes it needlessly fustrating though RP qurks and coded mechanics with absolutely no benefit to the game whatsoever.  We lose out in racism, awkward attractions, tension and everything in between thats comes form having to work closely with people that are truely different from humans.

Unforunately, I've seen myself keep repeating myself every couple of threds too on this subject. I can't believe we've seen massive changes including warriors getting backstab, tuluk close, magickal guilds get turned into sub-guilds. However despite that, I don't see c-elves getting changes anytime soon.

[Dakota]

I know it's been discussed over and over and over again -- but actually, in the last little bit, there hasn't been much discussion.  In any case, it's been on my mind.  So here's a two-fold proposal, and I'd be interested in hearing what players thought about this.

1. Desert Elves from a Non-Coded Tribe: You could either be from a virtual tribe or a lonefoot.

2. City Elves from a Coded Tribe: Pretty self explanatory.  I wouldn't mind seeing two coded tribes, perhaps parallel to the two Desert Elf Tribes: one tribe of sexy wide-ranging drunks (like the Sun Runners) and one tribe of dour brutal territorial cry babies (the SLK); perhaps the one would be Southside-based, the other Labyrinth-based.[1]

Right now, curiously enough, the situation is opposite: You can play a lonefoot or virtual tribed city elf but not a coded tribe city elf; and you can play a coded tribe desert elf but not a lonefoot or virtual tribed desert elf.  (Automatically, that is -- you can, of course, put in a special application for a lonefoot / virtual-tribed desert elf or put in a request to make a player-crated family for tribed city elves.)

Motivation: The main motivation here is RP opportunities:  I find it really interesting to interact with / play a lonefoot elf -- and I also find it really interested to interact with / play a tribed elf (with a real PC-populated tribe).  It's a lot of good RP times, and I don't really -- from a player perspective -- understand why #1 is an impossibility: desert elves are karma required and, ultimately, a lonefoot desert elf (or a desert elf from a virtual tribe) isn't that codedly powerful, all things considered; I've also never heard why #2 is a impossibility, since the coded city elf tribes closed before my time here.


[1] One curious thing to handle would be how the Rinth city elf tribe interacts with the (virtual and NPC) Jaxa Pah.  On the westisde, the PCs join the clan which /runs/ the westside.  While you could just make things parallel -- open the Jaxa for play -- it might be more interesting to eliminate the Jaxa altogether.

Also, please, please, please try to keep this thread focused.  Hence, if you are about to post something, read it over again, and think: is this snark that will make nauta cry?  Will this derail the thread?  Is my toast finished?

To keep this focused rather than a diatribe of pages full of suggestions...

1 - Lonefoot d-elves would be fun... But it would lead to something that isn't noted w. the d-elf world / roleplay... Bored d-elf players sitting around in Taverns in Allanak / Luirs on a regular basis to get some RP in... You wouldn't have the structure and guidelines from a tribe that help maintain the mindset and focus of the tribe. I think it would really mess up d-elves as a whole rather than help them.

COULD there be another tribe? Yes. For sure. Something new? Perhaps. Something old? Better. Red Fangs? Good. Dune Stalkers? Good. Some antagonist. Headache for staff? They'll be some for sure but in the big picture it will help the gameworld more than hinder. Arm needs 3 tribes for desert elves or loosen SLK's noose a bit.

So in effect... I'm completely against lonefoot d-elves **UNLESS YOU SPEC-APP** and it's scrutinized as a Sorc App. Guidelines for play. Mostly Iso to Tablelands or some region. If you're caught w. your ass in the Gaj or Luirs for days on end, adios to storage.

2 - C-Elves need a tribe they can play in. That's for sure. It's hard for C-elf players b/c C-elves are hard af to play right. What you don't want is some BS where it's Black VS White in the Rinth. I.E. Jaxa vs Guild. That's boring AF and = 2 weeks of fun then 6 months of boredom b/c one side is totally wiped out and gimped. C-elves in the Rinth, if a tribe is really supposed to be active and realistic, already have 3 antagonists who are bigger...

1. Southside Bullshit - Lump houses, Templars and everyone else in here.
2. Westside - Guild, etc.
3. Kurac - Won't say more. But if suddenly you're planning a Rinth tribe and making moves, it should be considered and could be a big fucking problem.

So whatever tribe that is opened / made in the Rinth, MUST have LOGICAL answers for all three...

One more problem is that b/c of the C-elf mindset, you can't have some "we are zealots for the Highlord", even if it's a 'sekret'. That goes against everything about c-elf doc and RP. They are self-serving (self = tribe) motherfuckers. If you go for the Highlord or politicks before the tribe, you're doing it wrong.

That's what made the Akai so retarded for ages. They had some good c-elves, but in principle for the them to operate, they had to get fucked w. a strap-on by a Lith Templar.
No thanks.

A c-elf tribe should be an antagonist for all. Not with stab-stab-stab, but in the true sense that they are working ONLY for themselves and have managed to make everyone else work for them / NEED them to exist... See everything I did w. my last c-elf.

-------

IN EFFECT RE: TRIBE IN THE RINTH:  Staff needs a tribe that LOGICALLY puts them in a position to exist while NOT being bitched and combines RP that maintains that status quo (politicks) with stab-stab-stab... Which you already have b/c... it's the fucking Rinth.

The 2 tribe suggestion is a good one. Would = lots of work for staff. Simple solution is to:

Some forced RPT / HRPT in the Rinth that shifts Jaxa Pah a bit. Shrinkens the # of families or they split...
INTO TWO TRIBES...

1 tribe is focused on being super iso-badass, stab-stab-stab. They SHOULD BE the best Assassins / Killers in the game. Without question. Contacting them for a hit should be dangerous af. Templars should 2nd guess hiring them. Nobles should know better. Commoner PCs should be afraid as they're parents used them as horror stories:

'Stay out late and XXX will get you.'

2 tribe is focused on black market / skull-fuckary. Nenyuk of the underworld. Fences. Arms dealing / smuggling (sell to Gith. Sell to everyone). Money lending. Dope peddling. This tribe pops up now and then in Luirs. In Red Storm. Even north of the shield wall. But NEVER Southside and never anyplace else other than for business. You see them and you want to HATE them for thinking you're about to get robbed... But at the same time YOU initiate a conversation because you want to see what tye have for trade... and if you need anything, they can get it for you... For a price.

Both tribes are linked together at the top by blood or some alliance.

This would work. And work well. You cover all bases. You give a TRIBE to something that virtually already would / does exist and let players get in on the action w.o them having to spend 2-3 RL  Y E A R S  in building some coded tribe that should already be in place.



I volunteer to help as I'm impartial in the right ways. I'd take time from work to help craft this.
srsly. I would help structure this if staff needs. just email me and let me know.

[WalkAmong]

I think the celf rinth idea is missing the point, especially this iso stab clan.

I'd rather see a rinth with both elves and humans working together, a guild on top of that as a kind of royalty or shadow group and the focus on their dealings with the south. Neutral rinthis and southerners get caught in the crossfire.

[yousuff]

I think celves should get the desert run ability that desert elves get. Not only do they not have access to Ranger (and thus lack a high direction sense that is kind of neccessary to traverse the outside in any meaningful way) they also lack the hilariously high stamina of desert elves meanining they're still worse off in comparison. Honestly something needs to be done, and I feel staff should at least come out and say it's an issue that will be looked into, even if it's not going to be fixed immediately.

[RogueGunslinger]

They have said they're doing a c-elf tribe. Nothing ever seems to come of it though.