Elves: The Thread

[Jingo]

I think it should be a possibility. If for no other reason to ease the restrictions on what city elves can do.

And besides. Why wouldn't a merchant house want a street savvy, smooth talking, deal swinging, coin mongering sharp as a merchant? I'm certain someone in the GMH heirarchy can see it that way.

Because no one in their right mind would trust an elf to not be selling them a shirt with no buttons that will unravel the moment they try it on?

And yet they buy stuff all the time from the merchant just south of Red's? They go to the Blackwing outpost to trade? All sorts of characters make deals with the elven mafia and elven rapscallions.

Sunrunners sell everyone booze and weird sticks that work in wondrous ways.

[Reiloth]

Eh.

I don't think City Elves are so 'broken' that we need to fundamentally change their place in society. Do people deal with Elves? Sure, when they have to. But not when they go to Kadius to buy a shirt and they pawn some Elf on them as a merchant. That just doesn't fit with the setting.

[Jingo]

I don't think the setting fits the elves, personally.

[Reiloth]

I don't think the setting fits the elves, personally.

Really? I think Elves fit the setting wonderfully well.

[Armaddict]

This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.

It isn't that racism is too hard on elves.  They're perpetual scammers, after all.

It's that no one bothers to be racist towards dwarves or giants in a meaningful way, because their 'racial leans' aren't something that results in you losing things.  The half-giant stupidity has turned into comedy rather than liability.  The dwarven stubbornness is used to make them -better- for clans, instead of a pain in the ass to deal with.  Elves can't turn their nature into a boon for a clan as easily.

However, it's also what makes a well-played elf infinitely more interesting than either of those other two races.  That is, of course, opinion only.

And besides. Why wouldn't a merchant house want a street savvy, smooth talking, deal swinging, coin mongering sharp as a merchant? I'm certain someone in the GMH heirarchy can see it that way.

I actually agree with this.  But I view it as something that will be 'always an experiment'.  There will be little exceptions to the overall rule throughout the game, or there should be, rather...but it will remain an overall rule in the case of elves.  It's not that they're broken.  But they are a xenophobic race whose standard of trust and loyalty is far beyond what people give them credit for.  Meanwhile, it means so much to them, but there isn't necessarily a drive to force them to find it, either.  I find the 'hardline' rule to be a little over the top, but not the overall idea of it being that way.  The hardline just makes it so whenever someone does find a place for an elf, or an elf finds a place to let someone become trusted, other people regard them as in some way playing an exception.  That is, as you say, a headcanon issue.  But these exceptions are going to happen by the documentation itself, yet no one ever allows for it to happen without regarding it as a breach.

The problem again, is a perception thing.  I can't be asked to see it as overly restrictive, because that's what makes sense to me for the race.  It enhances the role.  It makes it so that every person who tries to trust you becomes either a potential friend, or a potential target...depending on how you decide the character would view it, so  it requires a shift in player mentality as well.  The same way I really can't stand playing mages, or dwarves, or how I get bored with my half-giants at about 10 days in because they're just so fucking stupid...well, that may be the way some of you are with elves, and that's okay.

[Jingo]

There seems to be some sort of weird disconnect.

Elf npc's get along just fine in day to day interactions with human. You see elven npc's everywhere, they have a presence in the commons, they have shops.

Yet somehow, players treat them like some sort of reviled minority that got shoveled into the labyrinth. There is nearly no documented evidence for that sort of player interaction and certainly nothing in the documentation that suggests that elves are a ghettoized minority.'

Not to mention that the elven documentation barely reflects the pc reality (as in most of the twenty year old documents, though elves I think are the worst). There is no nomadic lifestyle in that either city or desert elves engage in. Tests of loyalty are truncated if they are ever attempted at all. There should be no reasonable elven solidarity even though there apparantly is in places like the eastside labyrinth etc.

[650Booger]

I'm so confused, are we -NOT- supposed to be racist towards elves?  this goes against everything I thought I knew.

[Reiloth]

There seems to be some sort of weird disconnect.

Elf npc's get along just fine in day to day interactions with human. You see elven npc's everywhere, they have a presence in the commons, they have shops.

Yet somehow, players treat them like some sort of reviled minority that got shoveled into the labyrinth. There is nearly no documented evidence for that sort of player interaction and certainly nothing in the documentation that suggests that elves are a ghettoized minority.'

Not to mention that the elven documentation barely reflects the pc reality (as in most of the twenty year old documents, though elves I think are the worst). There is no nomadic lifestyle in that either city or desert elves engage in. Tests of loyalty are truncated if they are ever attempted at all. There should be no reasonable elven solidarity even though there apparantly is in places like the eastside labyrinth etc.

This is all pretty extreme opinion, and I don't find it to be true in actuality in the game. They're the 2nd most populous race in the game -- Recently, in Allanak, there was a surge of city elves, and when 5-7 of them started hanging out in the Gaj, people got very uncomfortable in a realistic way.

Tests of Loyalty are still a very real and practiced habit among all city elves i've seen.

There's very little elven solidarity outside of tribal solidarity. I've never really seen elves band together just because they're elves. Sure, they might get along easier with another elf, but then again, maybe not. They're quite familiar with how elves act, and they might think an elf is scamming them more often than a Human.

Nomadic lifestyle, sure, i'll give you that one. Elves being the 'ghettoized minority' is sort of a naturally progressed player thing. If it bothers you so much, you don't need to play a city elf. But I think a few of us (Armaddict and myself come to mind) not only enjoy playing city elves, but don't think they're broken really. So, in essence, if you aren't going to play one, what's the big deal?

[Armaddict]

Elf npc's get along just fine in day to day interactions with human. You see elven npc's everywhere, they have a presence in the commons, they have shops.

This ties in with what I said earlier; most people, when they play an elf, turn it into something villainous and heinous and shitty. But as a whole, the race (rather than people who just want them to be the villains the stereotype pushes them to) clearly engage in certain sectors of society...but they have been marginalized a long time, and yes that is in documentation in places.  It was true in dark sun, and it was and always has been true here.  While we certainly push it really far in the effort to maintain the racism and standpoint, it's going to be there regardless.  But yes, it can certainly be stepped back to the point that PC's aren't just forced to be complete loners.

But it's important to realize that a lone elf without a tribe, in their mind, will indeed still be a loner until such a time that they do have people run through tests.

Yet somehow, players treat them like some sort of reviled minority that got shoveled into the labyrinth. There is nearly no documented evidence for that sort of player interaction and certainly nothing in the documentation that suggests that elves are a ghettoized minority.'

The 'somehow' is a big list of things, I think.  But you're correct in that most of the treatment is playerside, with support from such statements as 'We don't hire elves'.  I don't consider it odd that businesses and enterprises don't trust an elf with their profits and well-being.  I -do- consider it odd that players who play elves try to make them worthy of the racism instead of letting the racism be overplayed or false.  It's one of the few places in the game where you have people adhering to the documentation so hard that they completely overdo it (and generally get themselves killed in the process).

Tests of loyalty are truncated if they are ever attempted at all.

While I agree that the nomadic part of your closing on your post is pretty true, I also consider it enough of a minor detail that it doesn't matter much.  We're in a static sandbox, and there simply isn't enough to really 'wander'.  Allanak isn't so big that a city-confined elf can move from place to place physically that much...though the irony is that earlier in the thread, it was stated that someone didn't like how people left the labyrinth and moved on to other things.  It does tend to happen, that movement between eastside elves and southside and back again.  However, this bit about the tests of loyalty, I find completely untrue.  Almost every social interaction I have with elves is a poke and prod and something where I want to hear certain things out of that person.  If they say the right thing?   Test it again.  Test it again.  Test it again.  If they are consistently behaving in a way where you approve, and you're creating those chances for that behavior, they are passing tests.  I think tests, in particular, became overly mechanized and made into something so obvious that it detracts from the elven way of doing things.

So far as elven solidarity, I completely disagree.  For what loyalty and trust are to elves, it would make sense for them to feel that only other elves 'get it'.  For their nature in tests of loyalty, for their natural intent to maximize benefit for themselves in all things...all of their ways make it easier for them to clump together.  Even without 'true' solidarity (where I agree, a unified elven front would be ridiculous, and this is why I get irritated by things like the Jaxa), it makes sense for them to be more inclined towards each other than others.

That is all opinion, of course...but so are yours.  And I kind of reiterate that it might just be something that you, the player, aren't cut out for, but that doesn't make them less fitting for the game.

I'm so confused, are we -NOT- supposed to be racist towards elves?  this goes against everything I thought I knew.

No, you are.  I think the perspective is the big deal.  Be racist to elves...but be racist to other things as well.  As a human, remember dwarves piss you off to deal with because they're impossible and unrelenting, half-giants can't even make deals because they get distracted and can't figure it out, and elves are incredibly easy to deal with, but they always find a way to make it so that you were, in some way, deceived (not necessarily shorted, but elves will make you feel manipulated).

[Majikal]

This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.

Dwarves and half-giants can be represented members of most Noble and Merchant Houses, elves can't. That's pretty huge when it comes to social status. Commoners also yearn to be like nobles, mimicking dress and style of the Nakki upper crust, the upper crust does not acknowledge elves. If you want to be fancy, neither do you.

I would say that an elven's "hive mind" mentality, the culture of theft that surrounds them (not that other races don't do these same things), the proud nature of elves (elves will hold the slightest insult over your head for years, they look down on YOU as the lesser race forget), the fact that they have a tribe and you probably don't means that your pc has most likely had some resentment for elves growing up or maybe suffered their wrath. Most 'companionship's' with elves are even troublesome, even when elves are befriending other elves because of tests of loyalty: Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone. So while the elf is putting themselves at risk for these tests, they are asking you for something, in a world where favors mean everything.

There are many reasons for your pc not to trust an elf because of their culture. There are reasons for you to fear elves because of their culture. There are many reasons for you to hate elves because of their culture. There are social implications that come with being around elves so maybe your negative interactions with elves is just to maintain your appearances. Racial divides in Armageddon are strong.

[Patuk]

dark sun

lol

If we're going to use Dark Sun as an example, our celves are even more underpowered than they already are.

[Armaddict]

dark sun

lol

If we're going to use Dark Sun as an example, our celves are even more underpowered than they already are.

There's an important thing called context.  When you quote it down like this, it takes it out.  But the context was that there was really no basis for saying elves 'should be' this, in terms of either the history of here, or in the place that most closely mirrors Zalanthan elves.

[Jingo]

This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.

Dwarves and half-giants can be represented members of most Noble and Merchant Houses, elves can't. That's pretty huge when it comes to social status. Commoners also yearn to be like nobles, mimicking dress and style of the Nakki upper crust, the upper crust does not acknowledge elves. If you want to be fancy, neither do you.

I would say that an elven's "hive mind" mentality, the culture of theft that surrounds them (not that other races don't do these same things), the proud nature of elves (elves will hold the slightest insult over your head for years, they look down on YOU as the lesser race forget), the fact that they have a tribe and you probably don't means that your pc has most likely had some resentment for elves growing up or maybe suffered their wrath. Most 'companionship's' with elves are even troublesome, even when elves are befriending other elves because of tests of loyalty: Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone. So while the elf is putting themselves at risk for these tests, they are asking you for something, in a world where favors mean everything.

There are many reasons for your pc not to trust an elf because of their culture. There are reasons for you to fear elves because of their culture. There are many reasons for you to hate elves because of their culture. There are social implications that come with being around elves so maybe your negative interactions with elves is just to maintain your appearances. Racial divides in Armageddon are strong.

And the documentation also explicitly states that elves can be the most loyal of friends. And there is nowhere in the documentation that says elves have a preference for elves. It even suggests there is an aversion to non-tribe elves.

[Majikal]

This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.

Dwarves and half-giants can be represented members of most Noble and Merchant Houses, elves can't. That's pretty huge when it comes to social status. Commoners also yearn to be like nobles, mimicking dress and style of the Nakki upper crust, the upper crust does not acknowledge elves. If you want to be fancy, neither do you.

I would say that an elven's "hive mind" mentality, the culture of theft that surrounds them (not that other races don't do these same things), the proud nature of elves (elves will hold the slightest insult over your head for years, they look down on YOU as the lesser race forget), the fact that they have a tribe and you probably don't means that your pc has most likely had some resentment for elves growing up or maybe suffered their wrath. Most 'companionship's' with elves are even troublesome, even when elves are befriending other elves because of tests of loyalty: Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone. So while the elf is putting themselves at risk for these tests, they are asking you for something, in a world where favors mean everything.

There are many reasons for your pc not to trust an elf because of their culture. There are reasons for you to fear elves because of their culture. There are many reasons for you to hate elves because of their culture. There are social implications that come with being around elves so maybe your negative interactions with elves is just to maintain your appearances. Racial divides in Armageddon are strong.

And the documentation also explicitly states that elves can be the most loyal of friends. And there is nowhere in the documentation that says elves have a preference for elves. It even suggests there is an aversion to non-tribe elves.

I wasn't trying to imply elves have a preference for elves. And yes, while elves can be the most loyal of friends they never get there without a trial of the character in question, which is to ask a lot of someone in a world like Zalanthas and opens the door for a friendship to end in a multitude of ways.

[CodeMaster]

City elves are difficult to play, low powered, and generally disadvantaged.  Some people find that rewarding -- I did -- and some people disagree outright with my statement, I suspect because world knowledge + patience can be a great equalizer.

I like the infravision idea... that's definitely some leftfield thinking.  But I think it would have to be applied carefully if at all.  I've never had a character with infravision but I think you could make a joke out of the NPC game world with it (most of them don't codedly carry torches!)

A random thought for a city elf tribe: with instant mental communication, a 'distributed' tribe would be an interesting concept.  A "city" elf tribe with members in Red Storm, Allanak, Luir's, and even the wild north.  Members of that tribe might have access to who c, but they wouldn't have any benefits like clan lodges, etc.  They'd work by themselves or in small subgroups, and set up trade with the other locations for mutual benefit.  Maybe they'd keep their tribal membership a secret, because who needs to know?  (I think this would work for any undercover trade organization, but why not a city elf tribe as well?)

[CodeMaster]

And the documentation also explicitly states that elves can be the most loyal of friends. And there is nowhere in the documentation that says elves have a preference for elves. It even suggests there is an aversion to non-tribe elves.

I always liked the idea of the human (or dwarf) + elf duo.  You just know by association that the human must be a legit dirtbag to be on the same wavelength as an elf.

[Dar]

Or maybe the humans' exceptional character to earn himself an elven loyalty.

[Dar]

naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, just kidding .

[Majikal]

naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, just kidding .

I lol'd.

[Hauwke]

Its either the human is a dirtbag, or the Stump is being tricked into being a pack animal, one or the other.

[RogueGunslinger]

Make is so all elves aren't thieves, just that they have a natural ability for it.

[Dunetrade55]

Make is so all elves aren't thieves, just that they have a natural ability for it.

This is already the case. The documentation already says that elves have a broader definition of thievery than most races, and hardly view it as a crime.

[Dresan]

Except all those broader thieving definitions basically equal to just being thieves to the rest of the population.  

There has been a lot of discussion on elves over the years. On their RP, their skills, their abilities, their tribes and clans or lack there of. The fact they can't ride mounts, or use skimmers or even wagons really limits them in the clans they can join. The list goes on and on, and there have been plenty of good ideas to try to fix one or two things.

The short of it is this, city elves was a poorly implemented race,  dating back to the in the infancy of this game I believe. Which is to be expected from a race that was a mere copy of the actual race we find in Dark Sun which are desert elves. As we can see, desert elves are much better designed and thus more enjoyable to play and even their RP quirks of not using mounts makes sense for them.


City elves race concept has many short comings which cannot be so easily addressed by any one single idea alone. It would require a combination of all these solutions to bring city elves in line with the other much better desgined races. Unfortunately this would mean  replacing everything we know to be c-elves completely. They would need to be re-conned.

Another possibility is to have city elves phased out, maybe dying off in cities and what survives moving to live with the remaining desert elves tribe. With the idea that the desert elves through tough circumstances, would need to build more connections and dealing within cities, making them a little less rare there.

[RogueGunslinger]

Make is so all elves aren't thieves, just that they have a natural ability for it.

This is already the case. The documentation already says that elves have a broader definition of thievery than most races, and hardly view it as a crime.

That's what I'm saying hough. Stop making elves have to come up with weird reasons that they're a hunter/gatherer. "I steal this meat from the corpse of the carru I just killed." Type of BS. Make it so that they aren't all treated as thieves because they aren't all thieves.

[nauta]

Celven tribes are fucking powerful. They're more powerful then Guild. They're more powerful then merchant houses. They're powerful due to their sheer loyalty and impossibility for betrayal. Which sadly often makes annihilation the only certain way of influence on these tribes. You cant flip them, you cant get them to rat on each other, you cant infiltrate them. Any kind of influence on them either involves placating them, having someone hostage, which oh so often turns into a blood bath anyway.

I think this is a good argument.  I'm not sure if I'm convinced, however.  So three points:

1. Desert Elves are loyal to each other AND codedly powerful...
2. The Guild (and other clans) have other things to counterbalance the auto-loyalty issue, e.g., safe places, NPCs that back them up in a fight, muls, giants, even magick sometimes, etc., and the virtual world.
3. A City Elf should have their tribe always in the front of their minds.  Hence, if they do something stupid, their tribemates (both real and virtual) might well suffer the consequences.

I dunno, I guess I see the PC-tribe as a good counterbalance to the low stats / racism vis-a-vis the city elf.

That said, I can see where you are coming from, especially if the tribe in question had lofty goals, e.g., to be the criminal boss-gang of eastside.  If this were an established playable tribe, there'd be no stopping them, not just because of the auto-loyalty thing, but also because new elves would pop in and exact revenge for the death's of the old elves.  (I'm sure those more experienced with PC elf tribes could have some things to say here.)

I suppose it would require that whatever tribes get implemented, the documentation would have to curb and check this aspect.  But I don't know if I'd go so far as to suggest that there's no workable solution here; the solution would be in writing up a careful set of documents.

(As to the 'middle ground' solution, I could see this too: abandon the whole notion of 'tribe' for city elves, open up an 'eastside' multikulti clan gang, open to breeds, elves, dwarves...  I just think there is a lot of good RP opportunities in RPing out the tribal mindset in the context of a city environment.)