Elves: The Thread

[nauta]

I know it's been discussed over and over and over again -- but actually, in the last little bit, there hasn't been much discussion.  In any case, it's been on my mind.  So here's a two-fold proposal, and I'd be interested in hearing what players thought about this.

1. Desert Elves from a Non-Coded Tribe: You could either be from a virtual tribe or a lonefoot.

2. City Elves from a Coded Tribe: Pretty self explanatory.  I wouldn't mind seeing two coded tribes, perhaps parallel to the two Desert Elf Tribes: one tribe of sexy wide-ranging drunks (like the Sun Runners) and one tribe of dour brutal territorial cry babies (the SLK); perhaps the one would be Southside-based, the other Labyrinth-based.[1]

Right now, curiously enough, the situation is opposite: You can play a lonefoot or virtual tribed city elf but not a coded tribe city elf; and you can play a coded tribe desert elf but not a lonefoot or virtual tribed desert elf.  (Automatically, that is -- you can, of course, put in a special application for a lonefoot / virtual-tribed desert elf or put in a request to make a player-crated family for tribed city elves.)

Motivation: The main motivation here is RP opportunities:  I find it really interesting to interact with / play a lonefoot elf -- and I also find it really interested to interact with / play a tribed elf (with a real PC-populated tribe).  It's a lot of good RP times, and I don't really -- from a player perspective -- understand why #1 is an impossibility: desert elves are karma required and, ultimately, a lonefoot desert elf (or a desert elf from a virtual tribe) isn't that codedly powerful, all things considered; I've also never heard why #2 is a impossibility, since the coded city elf tribes closed before my time here.


[1] One curious thing to handle would be how the Rinth city elf tribe interacts with the (virtual and NPC) Jaxa Pah.  On the westisde, the PCs join the clan which /runs/ the westside.  While you could just make things parallel -- open the Jaxa for play -- it might be more interesting to eliminate the Jaxa altogether.

Also, please, please, please try to keep this thread focused.  Hence, if you are about to post something, read it over again, and think: is this snark that will make nauta cry?  Will this derail the thread?  Is my toast finished?

[RogueGunslinger]

I've given up on city elves. They won't get any of the love they need. And I won't play them anymore.

I don't think D-elves should be able to play without a clan. But if they could I would play nothing else.

[evilcabbage]

if they play without a clan, you must have a really fucking good reason for having the ability to basically run literally everywhere you want, and have some very extensive tribal information - like, it is ingrained into you that you only travel out of the salt flats for food and water (because the flats are super dangerous).

things like that, which are restrictive similar to how the actual d-elf tribes are restrictive. maybe your tribe were raiders from the salt flats, and they were wiped out by patrols or something, and you managed to survive. now you have to find a way to survive the rest of your days.

[Armaddict]

#1:  This is how desert elves used to be, but you had to provide some good reasoning or documentation for a virtual tribe that they were part of.  I really didn't mind it, but it was ixnayed for a reason, I'm guessing (a reason I don't know about).  I have no qualms with it coming back, and no reason for it not to, but it would be staff that you'd have to persuade since I don't recall it being a player-idea policy change or anything of that nature.  There was a specific staff-desired direction for it.

#2:  The Jaxa Pah was, in my opinion, a hastily organized endeavor that actually made the eastside less elven than more elven.  There was already documentation in place that described a 'hierarchy' for eastside and how they were loosely tied together.  The Jaxa was, I think, just an effort to throw something into the mix that allowed for IC recruitment, but it was a poorly done attempt, imo.  Of course, at the time that I complained about such things, it was made out to be a personal thing rather than an observation of why it would not be good for the eastside (because it was Bhagharva making the change, and me and that fellow did not see eye to eye on just about anything).  However...I have long thought (and worked towards, with a couple instances) that the 'ic recruitable' eastside clan would be the elven market itself.  At one point, I even had a coded clan created by Zagren so that my Haruch Kemad could clan people and make them feel special...even though it granted them no boons at all.
      It's a little harder to regulate than the westside since elves are more unto their own; relationships with NPCs that represent certain groups are variable, and so even though there's an elven market, that doesn't mean the elven muggers are all going to listen to it.  But the elves of Dariki sound like your partygoing types (though I'm not sure that any eastside tribe is really...partygoing.  Elves are -traditionally- pretty severe in nature, but Dariki would definitely fit in as the most likely to represent that side), and that leaves Kanosh, Valuren, Sandas, and a few other more virtual tribes of the eastside that could also be used.  The only problem with an 'overarching' clan of eastside is that it removes the eastside elven identity.  I think the age of the Haruch Kemad had it right.
      I have a lot more to say about city elves, because they really have been done to death.  I do want city-elf tribes available, but every attempt I've made to 'prime' for it has failed...not just because of staff not wanting it happen at the time (which was always the case), but because the elven mentality and trust had makes a lot of impediments around getting groups together.  While I believe the state of the lonefoot isn't broken, and I view the lonefoot as more likely to be a thing in the city, the complete lack of option to be in a group as one would definitely make it unappealing to many players.  -I- have come up with my way of doing it, but not everyone wants that experience.

In short, I am fine with both ideas, but I don't think either of them are player-centric directives.  In other words, they weren't made this way out of player demand or player dislike for how things were.  We really just need a staffer to step up and say they'll take on the elves of eastside in particular (it's a much more daunting task than you think.  Elves play against each other hard and constantly until some outsider tries to piss in their pool, and thus it can be pretty time consuming to keep the atmosphere alive in the state that it's supposed to be in.)

Elves really are the most interesting/coolest mindset in this game to me, so I survive the lack of clans by building my own relationships and ideas as the character comes along as a lonefoot.  But there is a serious lack of identity that the Jaxa contributes towards, rather than fixing...because it tries to make a dominant clan in a place where there is no real dominance (Not since the ALA ended, anyway.  No one wanted to fuck with those guys.  You's a scary mothafucka, Reno.), and my only fear is that the next version of 'structuring elven eastside for play' is going to fall into the same trap.


Edit:  Despite the thread title, this discussion ended up having some cool insights that I think could be used by elven players in the meantime.  I do hope city elf clans get redone and put in, and that's a point that a lot of people agree with, but we also seem to be in a place where if anyone suggests that more clans is better, they get jumped on.  But the later pages of http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48797.0.html are at least a good read. Which isn't to demean the idea, but I wanted to point directly to the things we could do as players to get around this until such a time that staff decide to re-open some clans in a helpful way towards emphasizing what elves are, and what they do, and most importantly...that they haven't be exterminated because they aren't villains, they're just sly bastards who don't really care about you at all.

[Desertman]

I played several desert elves back when you didn't need a coded tribe. I really enjoyed it.

I personally preferred playing a desert elf then and ALSO encountering desert elves then.

Now when I meet a desert elf I can generally look at them, within a second or two figure out what tribe they are from, and determine which "box" they fit in.

Based on their tribal documentation I more or less know what "version of elf" I'm going to get before they ever even speak, within a spectrum.

It makes encountering desert elves honestly pretty bland in my opinion these days. There have been some great desert elf players from these coded tribes, no doubt about it.

But, if you have seen 10, then you have pretty much seen them all because they all have to fit within a certain spectrum in order to qualify for the tribe in question.....and I've seen a lot more than 10 from each over the years.


We basically took desert elves and said, "You know that thing about gemmers that makes them uninteresting? Because everyone knows pretty much what all of them are/can do/which box they fit in?"....Yeah, let's make a desert elf version of that problem.


I don't know why we feel the need to "restrict them" into very limited categories. It's like saying, "Wow, the players could do a lot with this awesome concept, but let's neuter the fuck out of it so they have to do it pretty much how we want when we want where we want.".

But, that's my personal opinion and feelings about the situation. I'm sure there are a ton of people who find it completely fulfilling and good for them, enjoy.

[Reiloth]

I think it's mostly because desert elves are beefy as fuck and without limitations they can be PK machines of the desert. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, but I wager it got out of hand.

[Dunetrade55]

I would like a viable c-elf clan, and I agree that it needs to be carefully thought out, lest it lead to a lack of variety and stifle creativity. It's always a concern of mine when a new group rolls in with the idea "things are gonna change around here" in an area previously lacking structure. I find myself asking, "Yeah, but why? They're fine the way they are.". I mostly prefer to stay away from clans and areas they frequent, because I'm having fun playing some piss-ant, good-for-nothing scoundrel, and some of their attempts to "involve" me or others in their plotlines can seem needlessly destructive and restrictive.

While some structure is a good thing, for a creative experiment to thrive things have to be a little lax. I'd love to see a group pop up but I don't want to feel like my hands are bound everywhere I go, which is what could happen if there's not enough wiggle-room.

[Delirium]

I think it's mostly because desert elves are beefy as fuck and without limitations they can be PK machines of the desert. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, but I wager it got out of hand.

Well, that and 9 out of 10 were mages.

[Dunetrade55]

Seeing as how the game, staff, and veteran players have evolved over time, mayhaps it would be a good thing to open tribeless/virtual tribe desert elves for play again?

[Desertman]

I think it's mostly because desert elves are beefy as fuck and without limitations they can be PK machines of the desert. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, but I wager it got out of hand.

Well, that and 9 out of 10 were mages.

I can see this, but then again, if the issue was that people weren't playing them responsibly, realistically, or in a way that was harmful to the game we just should have increased the karma threshold IMO and left more freedom in the role at the disposal of more trusted/better players.

I don't think we need to take freedom away from the role so as to "dumb it down" to what would be safe for a karma 1 audience.

[Case]

I don't think a delf sans tribe is a particularly useful role to play for the game. It's a solid race already, it needs some degree of bounds. Also the tribes are pretty cool.

But celfs? As usual - give them something, even if it's better desert running, and a couple of things from Dark Sun like no heat stroke for elves and less need for food and water to recognise their origins as desert runners. That and a clan or two, ideally ones without as tight restrictions as delf ones, but enough to give them an us/them mentality against people. If it makes an elf mafia for a while, at least that'd be more interesting than the half assed modern-people racism we see IG that somehow makes out elves as the worst ever but dwarves and giants are buddies.

[BadSkeelz]

I wager stumps and half-giants would get a lot more racism if they weren't code-capable of punching your head off.

edit: grammar

[Jingo]

I think it's about time the racial roleplay docs were rethought as well.

[Case]

I wager stumps and half-giants would get a lot more racism if they weren't code-capable of punching your head off.

edit: grammar

well yeah and that shit lazy

[lostinspace]

I have encountered a Lone Foot before, but I can't really discuss it yet. I think it's a roll that should be encouraged, but still gated behind a spec app. As for most of those in the past being gicks, I suppose that makes some sense from an RP perspective. Most DE clans send away or kill most types of gicks, so having gick solo elves makes sense thematically, but the roll isn't really special when tons of people are doing that same thing.

City elf tribes though I am 100% for, elven roleplay for me has seemed insurmountable without a pc tribe, and I don't like solo rp enough to spend all day logged in without other players to trust and relax around.

[BadSkeelz]

I wager stumps and half-giants would get a lot more racism if they weren't code-capable of punching your head off.

edit: grammar

well yeah and that shit lazy

Players are lazy.

Being racist to (city) elves makes sense because their docs make them out to be compulsive thieves and asshats while the code makes them all but useless except as living sparring dummies. There's no reason not to shit on them, barring the occasional super assassin.

Loosen up their docs so City Elves can more readily form gangs in the city - think of them as degenerated tribal traditions that have been disrupted by centuries of urban living. Buff up their code so they're capable of actually engaging in physical and outdoor activities.

You got to carrot-and-stick people into good play. Right now City Elves just get beaten with a stick.

[valeria]

100% wish for a supported city elf Labyrinth clan to balance out the Guild.  Have for a long time.

[Jingo]

Or even write a document on racism. Since most of it just seems to be player head-canon.

[BrokenRomance]

I don't think I'm very open to just virtual tribe elves. I would like it if we had a bit more variations from two tribes that are pretty much Scam Artists or Murderers. Yes, these are incredibly generalised but they work for what I'm saying. From the docs we had more variations before but it has just sort of dwindled.

I'd like c-elf tribes, because I've never considered a c-elf because the docs talk about dedication to your tribe but then like... You're going to join the game and not be in any tribe whatsoever. You have to hope you run into one, or you'll never get that experience. At least that's what I got from the docs.

[Yam]

No to desert elves without coded tribes.

Yes to city elves with coded tribes.

[LucildaHunta]

I'd like to see city elves done away with all together. Just add a city based d-elf tribe like the Night Runners from Dark Sun.

[BadSkeelz]

Only if they get another name. Enough Runners of various types in the game already.

[LucildaHunta]

Well yeah, the idea was something that would promote RP. The name isn't really important.

The gist would be that they are mercenaries, spies, thieves and assassins. That would put them in direct competition with other groups. It wouldn't be out of line with city elves, but would create a group to plot and scheme with.

[Reiloth]

I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.

[Armaddict]

I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.

That's how I feel as well, with very minor tweaks to mindset perhaps to make it a bit more defined where people stand in a 'default' elven head.