Men and Women: Flirtacious Bothering

[nauta]

If the reason for Zalanthan equality-of-sexes is to support an equal-opportunity OOC environment and not a genetic thing -- which, this being fantasy, who knows: maybe Jihae makes every sentient creature on Zalanthas view the sexes as equal(?) -- then it'd make sense that playable tribes would also be equal, even though there might be virtual tribes out there that -are- matriarchal, patriarchal, etc.

I know I was encouraged to make my documents for a (playable) tribe reflect the equality-of-sexes thesis once, and I've had virtual tribes (in the BIO) that were matriarchal.

So, to get back to OP:

Is gender neutrality (or the equality-of-the-sexes) a universal genetic/magickal thing for all sentient creatures, or not?

(Even if it is, you'd still have differences between the sexes in terms of sexuality -- the inborn gene would just make every sentient creature view sexism as unthinkable.)

(The more I write, the more I really want to write up a sci-fi story about the anti-sexism gene.)

[Synthesis]

What if the problem is that female PCs should sexually harass male PCs more often?

[Chettaman]

I don't actually mind sexism in game. Just as much as I don't mind  racism in game. Just as much as I don't mind their being a sort of caste system in which two cities of people are governed. As often as I was confused by the benjari and their sexist ways. ... I was /really/ sad to see them go.

I was saying earlier that we ARE all equal in game. (and out of game) - just however a society or a person chooses to see something is their choice.
-- unless I'm wrong and people in zalanthas don't ever think that. Or we shouldn't on an OOC level.

[Malken]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.

Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?

If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed.  If it's the second, you're wrong.  If it's the third, haha!  (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).

I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.

There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)

[Armaddict]

Oh.  Huh.

Well I guess...I can see that.

I suppose my perception is that there are some things that look patriarchal to me, and so I was saying a matriarchal one would balance it out, but I...see what you mean.  If that is true.

[Chettaman]

lol. Their documents were changed alright... xD
Changed to death!

[Talia]

The Arabeti are matrilineal and matrilocal-ish (since they are all one tribe and live together you can't totally say they are matrilocal, since that is not really how matrilocality works). Not the same as matriarchial.

There are not any tribe or clans in game now which are matriarchal or patriarchal or in which membership or leadership is determined by gender.

The reasons for our "no sexism" policy have been stated frequently. It's an OOC decision meant to make the game a place where women and other people who might be affected by sexism (and related -isms) simply don't have to deal with RL bullshit. The GDB is also a place that is intended to be free of sexism/other RL -isms (e.g. heterosexism/homophobia).

[Reiloth]

IIRC, aspects of the society are passed through the mother of the tribe/tents in the Arabet. Things like stories, storytelling, etc. It isn't a matriarchal society per se, it just has aspects/rituals that are woman-centric. It isn't far fetched or nonsensical to have 'birth/fertility rituals' carried out by women of the tribe. And IIRC, it isn't exclusive to women either (So a man in the same role would perform the same function).

I don't think it's bad to have a matriarchal society. Tribes have funny ideas/rituals about how the world works, most of which are not based in reality, but based on cultural reality/cultural magic. However -- Creating a society/system within a city (Lirathans come to mind obviously) where your gender plays a significant role on who you are or if you can be a leader or what kind of leader, shouldn't be in Zalanthas. I think we all know and agree with this.

I think there's a subtle difference. I can't think of any tribes where 'if you are a born a woman, you do this'. I think there's just various emphasis if you are a man or a woman, which is natural -- Men and women are different. But one is not better than the other. I think that's the distinction.

[Delirium]

The Arabeti are matrilineal and matrilocal-ish (since they are all one tribe and live together you can't totally say they are matrilocal, since that is not really how matrilocality works). Not the same as matriarchial.

There are not any tribe or clans in game now which are matriarchal or patriarchal or in which membership or leadership is determined by gender.

The reasons for our "no sexism" policy have been stated frequently. It's an OOC decision meant to make the game a place where women and other people who might be affected by sexism (and related -isms) simply don't have to deal with RL bullshit. The GDB is also a place that is intended to be free of sexism/other RL -isms (e.g. heterosexism/homophobia).

.. and why all of the prejudice in game is based off of fantasy tropes instead of being based in reality (being a mage, being an elf, etc).

Zalanthas is harsh, but it is fantasy harsh. There is a big difference between "passing real-life attitudes off as roleplay" and "getting fully immersed into your role and presenting that in a way which makes sense contextually in the gameworld" - and it is usually easy to tell the difference. When it isn't easy, it's best to assume benefit of the doubt, but it's something we can all keep in mind as we strive to be both better roleplayers and OOCly welcoming to players of all backgrounds.

[BadSkeelz]

There is a disappointing lack of Sorcerer Queens in this setting.

[Reiloth]

There is a suspicious lack of Sorcerer Queens in this setting.

Definitely. Dark Sun had what, 2 or 3?

[Chettaman]

There is a disappointing lack of Sorcerer Queens in this setting.

That you know. Muahahaha!

[Talia]

Post Black-Robe plot, all of Allanak's Black Robes are women.

That was not a planned consequence, though I did require for the plot that half of the contenders be female and half be male. Thus there was a chance that the winners would both be women, and that is what came to pass.

.. and why all of the prejudice in game is based off of fantasy tropes instead of being based in reality (being a mage, being an elf, etc).

Zalanthas is harsh, but it is fantasy harsh. There is a big difference between "passing real-life attitudes off as roleplay" and "getting fully immersed into your role and presenting that in a way which makes sense contextually in the gameworld" - and it is usually easy to tell the difference. When it isn't easy, it's best to assume benefit of the doubt, but it's something we can all keep in mind as we strive to be both better roleplayers and OOCly welcoming to players of all backgrounds.

Well-said!

[Jihelu]

I never did understand why Tuluk divided their Templarate into vaginas and penises.

[Desertman]

Post Black-Robe plot, all of Allanak's Black Robes are women.

[Desertman]

I never did understand why Tuluk divided their Templarate into vaginas and penises.

I always thought it was a throwback to Dune and to some extent the movie Equilibrium.

The white-robed psionic cult in Dune was made up entirely of females.

In Equilibrium, there was a full cult of male hand-to-hand martial artists known as clerics (templars) who were basically thought police in a very Tuluki society.

[BadSkeelz]

Which cult? The Bene Gesserit wore black. Between their manipulative and physical abilities they were probably closer to the Unified Templarate than anything.... /digression

Post Black-Robe plot, all of Allanak's Black Robes are women.

Well said

[Gilgamesh]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.

Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?

If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed.  If it's the second, you're wrong.  If it's the third, haha!  (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).

I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.

There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)

The Arabeti are SORT OF matriarchal. I remember seeing in the docs that it is stated to be equal. With each sex given equal duties and tasks. However, bloodlines are important to the Arabeti. So, only people born to an Arabeti mother are accepted into the tribe. The father's lineage does not matter. Arabeti children with fathers out of the tribe are just as accepted as those who are pure-blooded Arabeti. I don't think non-Arabeti fathers are accepted into the tribe just because he has an Arabeti kid. If you only have an Arabeti father, then they are not really accepted into the tribe. Although, I suppose exceptions have been made before for all I know.

[Majikal]

This thread has taken us on an adventure, the likes of which challenges even a Team Tuluk dungeon crawl. Surriously.

[Gilgamesh]

This thread has taken us on an adventure, the likes of which challenges even a Team Tuluk dungeon crawl. Surriously.

Blew up to massive proportions. This thread is 8 pages long and wasn't even made two days ago. Amazing. Clearly, people feel very strongly about their MUDsex.

[SuchDragonWow]

Honestly, this thread shouldn't exist.  Women should not be objectified so much more than men that it is a noticeable issue.  The solution is obvious:  ladies, get out there and objectify some men, today. 

"Nice buns, hon!"
"Is that a club in your pants or are you happy to see me?"
"Hey, would you like to see my vagina?  It's a strong vagina, I promise."
"Hey, I'll fuck you for a drink.  How's that sound?"
"I've got twenty minutes and a hole to fill.  You up to it, wussy?"

You know what to do, gals (and guys playing gals).

[Jingo]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.

Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?

If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed.  If it's the second, you're wrong.  If it's the third, haha!  (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).

I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.

There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)

The Arabeti are SORT OF matriarchal. I remember seeing in the docs that it is stated to be equal. With each sex given equal duties and tasks. However, bloodlines are important to the Arabeti. So, only people born to an Arabeti mother are accepted into the tribe. The father's lineage does not matter. Arabeti children with fathers out of the tribe are just as accepted as those who are pure-blooded Arabeti. I don't think non-Arabeti fathers are accepted into the tribe just because he has an Arabeti kid. If you only have an Arabeti father, then they are not really accepted into the tribe. Although, I suppose exceptions have been made before for all I know.

This is called a matri-lineal society. This is not a matriarchy. In the real world we have examples of matrilineal peoples that are in fact patriarchal.

[Gilgamesh]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.

Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?

If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed.  If it's the second, you're wrong.  If it's the third, haha!  (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).

I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.

There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)

The Arabeti are SORT OF matriarchal. I remember seeing in the docs that it is stated to be equal. With each sex given equal duties and tasks. However, bloodlines are important to the Arabeti. So, only people born to an Arabeti mother are accepted into the tribe. The father's lineage does not matter. Arabeti children with fathers out of the tribe are just as accepted as those who are pure-blooded Arabeti. I don't think non-Arabeti fathers are accepted into the tribe just because he has an Arabeti kid. If you only have an Arabeti father, then they are not really accepted into the tribe. Although, I suppose exceptions have been made before for all I know.

This is called a matri-lineal society. This is not a matriarchy. In the real world we have examples of matrilineal peoples that are in fact patriarchal.

Yeah, it's not matriarchal. It's equal. Judaism follows a matri-lineal bloodline (if you are born to a Jewish woman then you are considered part of the tribe), but I'd say it's definitely a patriarchal culture.

[Case]

I don't think having a tribal structure that recognises biological sex is the same as the game's lack of sexism either. We discriminate on people able to adopt many roles on Arm - magick, lack of it, heritage, bloodline, race - that a belief structure may want to reflect its beliefs embodied by an avatar of either sex is not diminishing either sex or reducing their stature.

Edit for double negatives what up

[Beethoven]

I don't think having a tribal structure that recognises biological sex is not the same as the game's lack of sexism either. We discriminate on people able to adopt many roles on Arm - magick, lack of it, heritage, bloodline, race - that a belief structure may want to reflect its beliefs embodied by an avatar of either sex is not diminishing either sex or reducing their stature.

+1