Men and Women: Flirtacious Bothering

[Desertman]

.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....

That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door.  In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal."  In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases.  It really is.  This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.

Reiloth is not in the game and has no obligation as such to adhere to those standards.

Also, when I call someone a sissy I don't mean, "You are a girl.".....I mean they are a little sissy.

It's all in how you use it.

(If I want to tell someone they hit like a little girl, I'll do that to, and have....because usually....little girls don't hit very hard....because that's reality and makes it a pretty good gym insult. *shrug*)

[valeria]

.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....

That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door.  In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal."  In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases.  It really is.  This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.

Reiloth is not in the game and has no obligation as such to adhere to those standards.

I think you missed my point.

Also, when I call someone a sissy I don't mean, "You are a girl.".....I mean they are a little sissy.

It's all in how you use it.

(If I want to tell someone they hit like a little girl, I'll do that to, and have....because usually....little girls don't hit very hard....because that's reality and makes it a pretty good gym insult. *shrug*)

Since the word means "effeminate man" and comes from the root word 'sister' (in a pejorative sense) it has everything to do with feminine characteristics.  When you say someone is a sissy, you are telling them they hit like a girl.  It has everything to do with gender roles and bias.  That you're apparently unaware of this illustrates for me that you could very well be using feminizing language as an insult IG and not even know it.

Again.  Hard to leave these things at the door.

[Desertman]

As I said, Dman, that's what I eventually did. But I shouldn't have to break character to get out of a trap like that tailored to tickle someone's OOC fancies and fetishes that they display again and again on character after character. I know I'm not the only one who would feel trapped in a situation like that.

I don't think you should have to.

I think most players should be able to figure out IC ways around things.

But if you feel you have to, go ahead.

Nobody is going to hold it against you.

But, it doesn't need a new game policy surrounding it for the people who can't figure out IC ways out of it, which is really my only point. There doesn't need to be a new rule for this. The rules on this front have gone as far as they need to.

[Armaddict]

This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.

This made me lol and explains why I couldn't even bother to post anymore.

Seriously.  We've now latched onto the word sissy.

Edit:  And before -this- gets twisted into cheapening an opinion...yes.  I'm pointing out that out of an entire post, all the context was ignored to try and make a point out of one word used contextually.

[Desertman]

.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....

That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door.  In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal."  In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases.  It really is.  This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.

Reiloth is not in the game and has no obligation as such to adhere to those standards.

I think you missed my point.

Also, when I call someone a sissy I don't mean, "You are a girl.".....I mean they are a little sissy.

It's all in how you use it.

(If I want to tell someone they hit like a little girl, I'll do that to, and have....because usually....little girls don't hit very hard....because that's reality and makes it a pretty good gym insult. *shrug*)

Since the word means "effeminate man" and comes from the root word 'sister' (in a pejorative sense) it has everything to do with feminine characteristics.  When you say someone is a sissy, you are telling them they hit like a girl.  It has everything to do with gender roles and bias.  That you're apparently unaware of this illustrates for me that you could very well be using feminizing language as an insult IG and not even know it.

Again.  Hard to leave these things at the door.

On the average effeminate men are weaker than masculine men.

So, that makes it pretty accurate. You may not like the fact it is accurate, but that makes it no less accurate.

Very few are the effeminate men I've seen where I say, "Yeah, that guys a serious fucking beast.".

It makes it a pretty accurate description of a man who is in fact not very strong.

You may not like the fact that men who are effeminate are on the average not as strong as men who are traditionally masculine, but that is reality.

With that being said, I don't think I have ever used "sissy" in game. If anyone can think of a situation where I used this sort of language in the game, feel free to correct me.

[Beethoven]

I'll state once again that I also don't believe new rules should be made. I just think it's a discussion that's worth having because "suck it up, this isn't carebaregeddon" is dismissive of people who have had experiences like that.

[valeria]

This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.

This made me lol and explains why I couldn't even bother to post anymore.

Seriously.  We've now latched onto the word sissy.

It's an illustration for why it's practically impossible for people to treat men and women as complete equals (even though the game rules state they are equals).  The cultural bias that women are inferior to men is very deeply ingrained to the point where the is pervasive even in the language we're trying to use to communicate with each other to play the game.  I'm about as likely to get upset at you for using the word 'sissy' as I am for perpetrating the idea that women who turn down male flirtations are bitches.  You can't escape the biases that go into those languages and attitudes, you can only be aware of them and try to mitigate them.

There is some deep cultural bias shit that it's impossible to get rid of in the context of the game. <- This right here is my sole point.

[Desertman]

This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.

This made me lol and explains why I couldn't even bother to post anymore.

Seriously.  We've now latched onto the word sissy.

It's an illustration for why it's practically impossible for people to treat men and women as complete equals (even though the game rules state they are equals).  The cultural bias that women are inferior to men is are very deeply ingrained to the point where the is pervasive even in the language we're trying to use to communicate with each other to play the game.  I'm about as likely to get upset at you for using the word 'sissy' as I am for perpetrating the idea that women who turn down male flirtations are bitches.  You can't escape the biases that go into those languages and attitudes, you can only be aware of them and try to mitigate them.

There is some deep cultural bias shit that it's impossible to get rid of in the context of the game. <- This right here is my sole point.

If your only point is that, "It shouldn't be said in game like this.".

Then we absolutely agree.

I thought you were just calling out Reiloth for saying it on the GDB like he had some in-game obligation here to adhere to those same rules....which he doesn't.

If I misunderstood your intention I apologize.

In-game, yeah, absolutely not acceptable.....recognizing real life reality on the GDB....absolutely fine.

[Armaddict]

I, too, am very upset that batman t-shirts made more money than batwoman t-shirts.

But that has nothing to do with the word 'sissy' used as an ambush on someone on the GDB who was actually making a point that got completely missed by the fixation.

[Reiloth]

.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....

That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door.  In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal."  In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases.  It really is.  This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.

Hmm, I think you are missing the irony in what i'm saying (and using the word sissy was intentional, as I could have used 'pussy' in the same way, a word that's rampantly used IG but is derogatory towards women, just as cunt is). Beefy Dudes trying to be Beefy Dudes and shame women, only to be shamed by a woman, is in essence what I enjoy viewing in a place like the Byn or Zalanthas at large. There is a lot of rampant sexism in ways that are only conceptually understood by a man, because we are not women. It's a subtle discrimination, just as race is IRL. An example would be (which I use IRL as well), that a woman who is a good leader is considered 'bossy', while a good leader that is a man is considered 'a good leader'. I've seen this many times IG.

Safe to say, i'm not the bad guy here. I've had my language nitpicked IRL as well, but i'm pro woman's rights, pro LGBT rights, pro Black Lives Matter, pretty much 'pro anything that is liberal and a basic human right'. I think by being a white male, my language can unintentionally be considered charged in the eye of the beholder, or things I say can be contextually blown up and upset someone. It's okay, i'm used to it.

Obviously this is a charged issue, but I think the less we jump to conclusions about each other, the more productive a conversation can be.

[Talia]

I, too, am very upset that batman t-shirts made more money than batwoman t-shirts.

But that has nothing to do with the word 'sissy' used as an ambush on someone on the GDB who was actually making a point that got completely missed by the fixation.

Can't tell if just blatant trivialization of a woman's argument or if actual trolling. If actual trolling, well, that is against the rules.

Everyone mind your manners. Armaddict, you seriously know better; I know you got the feels, bro, but get ahold of yourself.

[Reiloth]

I don't think he was being sarcastic?

[Dunetrade55]

I've watched a strong, young buck get knocked the fuck out (not to mention it was a brutal, flawless victory) by a very feminine man in a skirt and heels. I laughed, although I was sad I hadn't had any money to bet on it, could have made some cash. I'd tried to warn the guy, hey, that person over there will probably fuck you up, I'd stop talking shit right now if I were you.

[Armaddict]

I, too, am very upset that batman t-shirts made more money than batwoman t-shirts.

But that has nothing to do with the word 'sissy' used as an ambush on someone on the GDB who was actually making a point that got completely missed by the fixation.

Can't tell if just blatant trivialization of a woman's argument or if actual trolling. If actual trolling, well, that is against the rules.

Everyone mind your manners. Armaddict, you seriously know better; I know you got the feels, bro, but get ahold of yourself.

I think you're being a little oversensitive.  If you disagree with the idea that the entire point of an argument was missed because we wanted to discuss the use of the word 'sissy' when it was used in a contextually accurate setting, then that's well and good.  But the point is a valid one to make.

It's not trivialization.  It's pointing out that it was, indeed, a moot point.

[WarriorPoet]

I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.

[Talia]

I think you're being a little oversensitive.  If you disagree with the idea that the entire point of an argument was missed because we wanted to discuss the use of the word 'sissy' when it was used in a contextually accurate setting, then that's well and good.  But the point is a valid one to make.

It's not trivialization.  It's pointing out that it was, indeed, a moot point.

No. It was definitely trivialization of a type that is guaranteed to make people angry. I'm not being oversensitive, I am here doing my job. Please don't do things on purpose that will make people mad. Because that is what trolling is. Trolling is against the rules, etc.

Talking about language in a thread that is about language and behavior in a text game is not a moot point. I get that it doesn't seem meaningful to you, but that is not the same thing. Jumping to sarcastic trivialization doesn't help your argument and is pretty much going to make things blow up. So don't.

[Armaddict]

I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.

This would, actually, be a good thing.  They've existed historically.  I'd have expected Arm to come up with this.

I know that there have been small family units that worked like this, though ironically, people treated it as if it was strange.

I think you're being a little oversensitive.  If you disagree with the idea that the entire point of an argument was missed because we wanted to discuss the use of the word 'sissy' when it was used in a contextually accurate setting, then that's well and good.  But the point is a valid one to make.

It's not trivialization.  It's pointing out that it was, indeed, a moot point.

No. It was definitely trivialization of a type that is guaranteed to make people angry. I'm not being oversensitive, I am here doing my job. Please don't do things on purpose that will make people mad. Because that is what trolling is. Trolling is against the rules, etc.

Talking about language in a thread that is about language and behavior in a text game is not a moot point. I get that it doesn't seem meaningful to you, but that is not the same thing. Jumping to sarcastic trivialization doesn't help your argument and is pretty much going to make things blow up. So don't.

You can insist on such, but that is indeed oversimplifying.  It was a moot point to ignore the message of a post and fixate on a word within it as if the use of the word was an injustice.  It is not trolling.  It was a comparison.  If you honestly want to fixate on that use of sarcasm as trolling, please go back and reread the thread to various posts by Jingo and Yam that were directed towards myself and D-man and give the same treatment.

[Reiloth]

This thread is quickly becoming hostile.

[LauraMars]

Yet another gender-based thread that started out with good intentions, brought low by the conjoined fires of passion and insufficient vocabulary.

the tragedy of the commons or something

alas for the perfidy of thought and language

I wouldn't be sad about using this at all. Should I?

[Dunetrade55]

At least it's not the infamous Christmas day rape thread. *shudders*

[Malken]

I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.

Why? Equality of sex goes both ways.

Imagine the thread if you proposed a patriarchal tribe.

[WarriorPoet]

I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.

This would, actually, be a good thing.  They've existed historically.  I'd have expected Arm to come up with this.

I know that there have been small family units that worked like this, though ironically, people treated it as if it was strange.

Someone should write it up as a family. I would apply.

Damn the bickering.

[Chettaman]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

[Malken]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.

[Armaddict]

I thought the benjari were matriarchal.

I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.

Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?

If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed.  If it's the second, you're wrong.  If it's the third, haha!  (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).