Men and Women: Flirtacious Bothering

[BrokenRomance]

I know nobody wants to talk about this, but I really want to address it because I am very confused.

I saw:

To point out the obvious: You don't play female PCs and so it's statistically less likely to happen directly to you and maybe also less likely to happen around you, if you're hanging out with mostly other dude PCs.

There was more to it, but this to me implies that female characters get harassed more than male characters, and my problem here is isn't that against the documents? I joined this game early on because I read the docs and was told that there is no gender discrimination in Zalanthas.

So I had this entire time been operating under the concept that some female characters drive male characters up the wall trying to get in their pants too, because to me any thing where it happens to a lot of X gender means it must be happening to Y as well if there is no discrimination.


Edit to Add: If this is in the wrong forum, can someone move it? I /feel/ like it deals with culture, but I may be hideously wrong.

[BadSkeelz]

I've always taken the "no gender discrimination" rule as "there are no gender-related limits on what jobs, roles, and positions one can hold in society." It doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction or sexuality.

Saying a man "hits like a girl" is not OK. A man hitting on every female PC he meets because he finds females attractive would, by the letter of the docs, be OK (though it would probably get tiresome and would eventually cross subjective lines).

Most PCs still follow fairly typical gender coding in their personalities and behavir, because PCs are played by people who generally are not that[i/] dedicated to playing at complete odds with their reality.

[BrokenRomance]

I've always taken the "no gender discrimination" rule as "there are no gender-related limits on what jobs, roles, and positions one can hold in society." It doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction or sexuality.

Saying a man "hits like a girl" is not OK. A man hitting on every female PC he meets because he finds females attractive would, by the letter of the docs, be OK (though it would probably get tiresome and would eventually cross subjective lines).

Most PCs still follow fairly typical gender coding in their personalities and behavir, because PCs are played by people who generally are not that[i/] dedicated to playing at complete odds with their reality.

What makes that difficult for me to get is to me that hitting on is because of the discrimination in the culture. Men see women as people to have sex with because in previous cultures and even still some women did nothing but raise the children, please the husband, and generally do wife-y things. In armageddon women kill kryl and stuff sometimes all by themselves, and basically do all the things that a man does. So there isn't any of the what a woman does is raise children concept, so that sort of flirting feels wrong.

[BadSkeelz]

Without addressing the kind of shaky "The only reason men hit on women is to have kids" premise, sex is still pretty enjoyable for most people. Combine this with prevalent birth control and it lets people act on the desire to want to have sex with each other. Hence flirting.

[Rhei]

As BadSkeelz had mentioned, I'd always figured the rule meant that your PC's limitations would not be judged by their gender, in-game. While it's true, from what I've seen, anyhow, that male PCs do most of the initiation of flirting, I think this is something that reflects on real-life circumstances. Usually, a man initiates a romantic action in a relationship between a male and a female.

The rule is there, however, so that if a female character decides to want to hit it up with a man and start the flirting themselves, there would be no discrimination against that. It wouldn't be considered out of the norm. Though it's up to the players to roleplay that, really.

[Lizzie]

My take on it: in Armageddon, both man and woman can be paid equally to put their lives at risk by riding out on fantastical monsters and killing dangerous creatures. In addition, both men and women can equally be considered obsessive if every conversation is generously peppered with sexual reference, sexual innuendo, sexual jokes, sexual descriptions, or if the character continually veers every discussion toward the topic of sex. The "locker room mentality" is no longer relegated exclusively to the male, now women can be pigs too.

That said - it doesn't mean both men and women are required to enjoy that kind of banter. It ALSO means that both men and women can equally enjoy deriding said pigs on their piggish behavior. Men no longer have to hide their disgust behind their testosterone in fear of being called sissies or "girly-girls" or whatever the latest derogative is for men who take offense to overt sexual behavior bordering on obsession in others.

[whitt]

There was more to it, but this to me implies that female characters get harassed more than male characters, and my problem here is isn't that against the documents? I joined this game early on because I read the docs and was told that there is no gender discrimination in Zalanthas.

So I had this entire time been operating under the concept that some female characters drive male characters up the wall trying to get in their pants too, because to me any thing where it happens to a lot of X gender means it must be happening to Y as well if there is no discrimination.

The whole, no gender discrimination, particularly in relation to sexual encounters, is still a tricky thing because Zalanthan PCs are still played by Earth Players.  

By the docs, you are absolutely correct, it should be just as likely that there would be "horn dog" zalanthan female characters as males and it would be acceptable that all of these sex-seekers would hit on their own gender as well as the opposite gender.  Similarly, male PCs would be just as likely to be reluctant to have sex as their female PC counterparts, leading to a surplus of female PCs seeking partners.  That's where it starts to breakdown.

The players of male characters are less likely to find the attention of a female character off-putting, in fact more often finding it desirable.  At the same time, players of female characters, unlike their male character counterparts, may be chasing same-sex relationships.  The result is that the pool of male and female characters seeking a female partner is much larger then the pool of "available" female characters to be sought out.  This creates the sense of harassment as any unattached female PC is going to have multiple folks pursuing them at any given time.  I believe this is the gist of Talia's initial post.

On the opposite side, players of female characters that want to be "sex-driven", especially with the opposite sex, won't have much trouble finding a partner.  Hard to be "harassing" when the other party is all to willing to join in.  

[Desertman]

What makes that difficult for me to get is to me that hitting on is because of the discrimination in the culture. Men see women as people to have sex with because in previous cultures and even still some women did nothing but raise the children, please the husband, and generally do wife-y things.

They don't see them as people to have sex with because <insert cultural nonsense>.

They see them as people to have sex with because getting your dick wet feels good and if you are attracted to women as a man....that is major driving force in your existence...usually.


Gay men see other men the same way a lot of the time. Been hit on by a ton of gay men both in-game and IRL.


Been with a lot of women who absolutely saw men as nothing but sausages to ride....both in-game and IRL.



I guess to sum up the entire thread:


Sex feels good, we are evolutionarily wired to seek it out to continue our existence, and so long as those two things are true, this is never going to change. That goes for in-game, and IRL.

/thread

(The only reason it might seem like women are hit on more in-game by men than any other category is PROBABLY because most men who play this game are straight. My interest in roleplaying gay sex isn't there and I can imagine it isn't there for most straight men. So the math works out that you have a lot of straight male players who don't want to roleplay gay sex, so instead, they look for straight sex....and that won't change...and it shouldn't.)

[Desertman]

Here's a good example for you. I've played more than a few of these characters.

Amos is attracted to women. Amos really likes to have sex. Amos is also dominant in the bedroom and being submissive in the bedroom is a turnoff for him.

A+B=C.

He seeks out and wants women who are sexually submissive in the bedroom because he likes sex, and that's the kind of sex he is looking for.

This results in most of the sex he talks about fitting this category.

This also results in most of the women he talks about in a sexual manner as fitting this category.

This might result in the people around him thinking he is "sexist".

He isn't.

He isn't any more sexist than a gay man who is dominant in the bedroom talking about looking for little twink-men to get his rocks off on.

It is just seen as sexist because of our real-world bias towards looking for reasons to be offended....because being offended is fun.


I play straight male characters who are dominant in the bedroom. If I'm talking about sex, or women, it's probably going to sound like I'm a real-world sexist in the game if you are looking for that.

With that being said these same characters are pretty well known for hiring and working with very strong women that they NEVER HAVE SEX WITH or view as sexual beings.

Why? Because they aren't attracted to them.

They have specific types of women they are attracted to, so, they don't even view these strong women as sexual things. They view them the same way they view other men.


I like to think most people pick up on that.




Just an example for you from someone who actually plays some of the characters I'm sure other people have seen as "sexist".

They aren't sexist, I just have no interest in roleplaying being sexually attracted to things I'm not into.

[Beethoven]

Nobody is specifically doing anything wrong as long as they are playing to their characters. People should be sensitive to the fact that it can be very tedious playing a female character and being constantly sexualized even when you aren't trying to portray yourself that way. I know because I play both genders pretty much evenly. Keeping this in mind, people should continue to do what's IC for them, but maybe they should consider rolling up a crass female every now and then to give the men a taste of what it's like

[Dar]

Have you guys watched the Starship Troopers movie? Now I'm not saying it's a good movie. I think it's an atrocity done to a wonderful book. But anyway. Nooot the point of this post.

For those who watched the movie, have you noticed the dynamic between male and female? Nobody in the movies are giving a shit about the gender. The Sargeant equally breaks bones of both men and women. The female are equally hard ass. They all shower together without any what so ever thought that they should be segregated. They are equal.

At the same time, there is still sexual innuendo, there is still flirtations, there is still sex. It's just since they are both equal, nobody is bothered by it overly much. Nor does anybody keeps a ledger, "Alright. I've slept with two women this month. I have to sleep with at least two men to keep the genders equal."

This is basically how I see Armageddon.

[Desertman]

This thread is now for Starship Troopers. I've used more lines in-game from Starship Troopers than I probably should but will admit. (I really liked this movie.)

[Riev]

Come on you Jozhals, you wanna live forever?!

I only ask one thing. Do your job. If you can't do your job, I'll kill you. Welcome to the Gortoks.

To fight the kryl, we must first understand the kryl.

[Dar]

Note to self. If I dont like a thread, or just bored - mention Starship Troopers.

[Desertman]

Note to self. If I dont like a thread, or just bored - mention Starship Troopers.

If there's one thing you can count on, it's that people will want to know more.

[lordcooper]

[Most] Men see women as people to have sex with because

...most men are sexually attracted to women.

This has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles.  When a single straight guy wants to put his penis in someone he'll find a woman and hit on her.  When a single gay guy wants to put his penis in someone he'll find a man and hit on him.  This is generally how you find out whether someone is open to the idea of having your penis in them for a bit.

I've never seen Starship Troopers.

People have never really hit on my characters en masse regardless of gender.  Probably because they tend towards being butt ugly.

[Desertman]

I've never seen Starship Troopers.

[Malken]

So there isn't any of the what a woman does is raise children concept, so that sort of flirting feels wrong.

If you think that men are hitting on you because they want you to raise their children, you're gonna have a bad time  

[Desertman]

So there isn't any of the what a woman does is raise children concept, so that sort of flirting feels wrong.

Also in-game, women would actually more often raise the children.

In fact in a world so obviously shattered and scarce with morality there is a very strong argument women would more often end up raising children alone than in the real world.

Men aren't required to be a part of "the child thing" after sex. That is the only part they are really needed for.

Once you get pregnant though, you are having a baby most likely one way or the other and in Zalanthas I can see you being there alone for the process a lot of the time instead of with a loving caring responsible father at your side to help you raise it.....because Zalanthas.

Not to mention mammal babies breast feed. We aren't exactly running down to the grocery store here to pick up some formula as a substitute in Zalanthas. If babies in Zalanthas live, it's almost always because a woman put a boob in their mouth. The woman is the vital part. Not the man.

So yeah....the idea women in Zalanthas wouldn't actually end up as being the ones to most often raise children and be seen as the ones who most often raise children as a result is probably not true.

It's probably exactly the opposite.

But, we don't look at it that way for OOC reasons related to people's OOC feelings, and that's fine. But pretending IC'ly it's not the reality is a bit too much willful blindness for me.

[Riev]

Generally, my male PCs only hit on women they find attractive. If you're a buxom woman, or your hair is straight and seems clean, and you don't mention anything about busted ass teeth or anything... hey go for it. If you're listed as decrepid, or stringy hair, or no chest... well. Unless my PC is into it, he doesn't care.

The ADMITTEDLY few female PCs I've played have never felt bothered by what flirting they received. Maybe I'm not an attractive woman, but I wasn't put off by it. I'm just not interested fully in actual RPing sex, so I just go through the motions in game.

I've DEFINITELY had a male PC that was hounded after by a domineering pretty young male. Always offering backrubs, or to do things for me to make things easier, excuses for touching, etc. As a straight male it was odd, but my PC at the time felt "If it gets me somewhere in life, I'll take a shot in the mouth"

[LauraMars]

Oh goody, one of these threads again.

Please keep it civil/be nice in here. Save your nastiness for the game!

[Chettaman]

My idea of the gender equality is that it is real. In body (besides the obvious organs and such), skill, intelligence and all that.

But socially, like any other aspect of the game or real life even. People are different in their thinking. I'm sure there will be someone who minds and complains if there is a man out there that thinks all women are inferior in game. And vice-versa if there was a woman that considered men to be inferiors - but it's a character's thought process. It's just the character. While it is obviously not true - it's what a person thinks and feels and that can't be stopped!

So then ... their actions too will be gender unequal.

Also. Flirting in the real world and IC can be a dangerous idea. While sometimes fun and games, it's sometimes difficult to admit to ourselves or to see at all when the fun and games are an illusion from true desire. -- it's the whole, I'm picking and choosing and keeping my options open. <- and this of course leads to people in game having mudsex frequently and with just about anyone. -- also out of game.
Which is fine. As long as people understand that their acting on desire is just that. Acting on desire and acting in general can be compared and I think are the same thing, but ... motives change. Results desired change.

----
it always bothered me to know there was a clan where the women were in charge in a gender equal world, until I realized people have different traditions. While everyone literally are equal. People make up rules to the world they live in. OOCly and in game.

[Talia]

The players of male characters are less likely to find the attention of a female character off-putting, in fact more often finding it desirable.  At the same time, players of female characters, unlike their male character counterparts, may be chasing same-sex relationships.  The result is that the pool of male and female characters seeking a female partner is much larger then the pool of "available" female characters to be sought out.  This creates the sense of harassment as any unattached female PC is going to have multiple folks pursuing them at any given time.  I believe this is the gist of Talia's initial post.

On the opposite side, players of female characters that want to be "sex-driven", especially with the opposite sex, won't have much trouble finding a partner.  Hard to be "harassing" when the other party is all to willing to join in.  

That is not what I said. I don't think you're mischaracterizing or misinterpreting on purpose, I think you just have a different perspective than I do. Some of that is because you're male and I'm female, some of it is because I have seen things as a staffer that all players wouldn't necessarily see (only the ones involved in certain incidents).

Harassment and flirtation are not the same thing and shouldn't be conflated. The difference is consent. The same is true of sexual assault and sex; the difference is consent.

In Armageddon, actually, we don't see a lot of harassment behaviors that women IRL are subjected to daily. For example, street harassment (the kind where a woman is walking down the street and a man who is a stranger to her yells something like "hey baby show us your tits"). Or even "smile, girl!" I've never witnessed nor experienced that in Armageddon.

I also have rarely seen stalking types of harassment in Armageddon. At least not IC. (There have been some OOC incidences.)

We do see a lot of bar banter, "do you wanna go XYZ?" That's not what I would call harassment and I have rarely seen requests of that type be so persistent as to head into harassment territory. One great thing about the violent culture of Zalanthas is that my warrior chick can just legitimately threaten to beat/kill anyone who does this to her, and my silky merchant can threaten to have her friends beat/kill anyone who is harassing her. (Please Tek please please have someone tell my harsh warrior to "smile" soon. That would be FUN.)

Anyway, my point is that flirting is not harassment, unless it is actually harassment. And I don't think it happens that often, but that's not to say it couldn't. Carry on.

[Desertman]

Sexual harassment isn't rape and there isn't a rule against it either regardless of it is a personal hot button issue for some people.

[Talia]

Sexual harassment isn't rape and there isn't a rule against it either regardless of it is a personal hot button issue for some people.

While that's technically correct in that we don't have a specific rule about sexual harassment, if the behavior of a player is making the environment OOCly hostile for others, that is certainly something staff could investigate and act on. We do see behavior of this type on occasion, where IC becomes OOC.