Hiding Mdescs: Ways to Implement It

[nauta]

Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting, let's not derail the hemote look thread, and instead talk about hiding mdescs here!

Here's an idea:

A new skill HIDEMDESC which would work a lot like hide, but upon success your mdesc would be hidden, or blurred (perhaps using the scribble decay code).  It wouldn't rely on 'gear' (perhaps you'd have to have at least a cloak on, so you can't do it naked[1]) but on skill at subterfuge and distraction (always having a hand over your face, keeping the shadows where they should be, etc.)

[1] Sure, why not naked?  The skill would be your skill at being nondescript, and this can happen with gear, sure, and maybe there'd be HIDEMDESC boosting gear like there is HIDE boosting gear, but it can also happen through other means, as mentioned above.

And... discuss!



ETA: No need to discuss this idea: the thread is here to discuss ways of implementing hiding mdescs so that it is fair.  As far as the dialectic goes:

1. Mdesc Hiding Gear: grants the shady type the ability to abuse by wearing it all the time.

2. No Mdesc Hiding Gear (what we have now): grants the non-shady type the ability to abuse by reporting the full mdesc to the authorities.

Them's the Scylla and Charybdis as far as I can tell from previous discussions.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm leery of this being a skill as I think people will just use it to apply instant-disguise without proper IC justification.

Also the idea of a dual wielding assassin keeping a hand over his face while he threatens you is kind of silly. Much less while he's backstabbing someone and folks are looking at him.



What about having something that's gear based that applies something like the scribble code to your mdesc. I.e the higher quality mask you're wearing, the more of your mdesc is blocked out.

[nauta]

Hmm, good point.  Although in its favor, at least with the skill approach, staff can look down on you and say: Um, are you really hiding your mdesc in a lit corridor, naked, with swords in your hand?  With the gear approach... you know, I'm just gonna do a list of possibilities for abuse with each implementation.

1. Skill Approach. 

con A. Could lead to implausible situations (much like HIDE does sometimes) wherein one passes the check yet is in a circumstance that would be hard to imagine.  (Response: seems like this has all the same flaws as hide?)

pro A. At least it's a skill so there's a timer to it and the chance for failure.

2. Gear Approach. 

con A. One can just wear the gear all the time.

Perhaps there should be a hybrid approach.

3. Hybrid Approach.

You need some gear (like a tool) to even try to hide your mdesc, but it is still skill-based (and so there's a chance of failure and a hit to stun and it wouldn't work while in combat, etc. etc.)

[hopeandsorrow]

Good job controlling the derail.

From the Hemote look thread

From other thread:

I'm curious about the argument that no look echoes hurts the shady types, though. Someone explain?

The general argument isn't really so much about the echo as the fact that folks can look at you and. despite every IC attempt to hide your mdesc, still see your mdesc.  Which means you are reliant on the proper RP of other players to not tell someone exactly who mugged/raided/ran by... etc.

Exactly, I'd like to see gear/stuff hide mdesc and produce a generic mdesc based of characters race/height/weight/age.

OF course that gives shady types super anonymous powers that could be abused.

Le sigh, it's hard to trust other players to 'play fair' seen/been/heard of folks on all sides of situations where the other parties involved weren't what I considered 'fair'.  But whatever not much you can do. (OOC fairness to note, not IC related ideas of 'fair').

If I personally where to design something, like an RPI mud.  I'd take a lot of the ownership on such situations off the players.  Let code decide so players aren't left with the dilemma for 'playing fair risk losing' or 'playing unfair and winning'.


Some things due to the current code rely on an honor system, sometimes being honorable OOCly with IC actions (not describing line for line the guy who just mugged you) or playing good and ICly ignorant if say you were blinded folded puts you in a position to 'lose' but you're being honorable.

Or you can throw all that out the window and put yourself in a better position to 'win'.  

It's one of those things that seems just easier when code decides, dice rolls, math, character sheets.  That way no one feels the need to be 'less than honorable' to win.  Or there's no OOCly reason to work against your character while trying to RP realistically.

I've seen personally so many situations that hinged entirely on some one acting against their own PC's interest.  Some have a stomach for it, but I don't blame anyone for not doing it.  Lot of effort and care goes into a large amount of PC's it's difficult to work against your own previous efforts for the sake of story.

In some of those cases, despite perhaps being angry with the situation at first.  I realized that those Players whom I felt were 'code cheesy' and fell into situations I would consider 'unfair' are just trying to act with in their interest and the interest of their personal story.  There's no coded way to tell "did he really get a good look at the guy?".  You wouldn't rely on an honor system in PvP combat situation.  Players on the whole rely on the code.  You wouldn't publish important IC secrets about an ongoing plot centered around player vs player conflict, because we know the honor system doesn't work.

Why should interactions? Interactions that require obscuring who you are be any different?  For the aggressor, the player is literally relying on the honor system.

It'd be nice to have that feature, but you know what would happen - every single even slightly shady character would start wearing the cloak+mask combination at all times. I remember reading somewhere this is why it was removed to begin with? Completely hiding your identity is a powerful thing. And though some of us don't want to admit it, I think there are a lot of people who would love to abuse the mechanic to its fullest. And staff can't handle every single case of unreasonable use of cloak+mask that comes up.

To be fair, I've seen a large amount of describing characters line for line down to using their uncommon adjectives to describe a shady type.  By players who I would think would be more incline to "rp realistically" not a person bat an eye at it.  There are two sides to this, both have been abused.

Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting, let's not derail the hemote look thread, and instead talk about hiding mdescs here!

Here's an idea:

A new skill HIDEMDESC which would work a lot like hide, but upon success your mdesc would be hidden, or blurred (perhaps using the scribble decay code).  It wouldn't rely on 'gear' (perhaps you'd have to have at least a cloak on, so you can't do it naked[1]) but on skill at subterfuge and distraction (always having a hand over your face, keeping the shadows where they should be, etc.)

[1] Sure, why not naked?  The skill would be your skill at being nondescript, and this can happen with gear, sure, and maybe there'd be HIDEMDESC boosting gear like there is HIDE boosting gear, but it can also happen through other means, as mentioned above.

And... discuss!

I could hide my mdesc in RL by covering my naked body in dung.  Because are really gonna describe a mad man's eyes when he pulls the worlds greatest heist in the buff covered in cow shit? No they're just gonna describe you as the cow shit bandit.

[TheWanderer]

Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting

I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).

Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.

And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.

I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.

[nauta]

Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting

I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).

Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.

And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.

I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.

Did you know that calling yourself a 'master baiter' sounds a lot like calling yourself a masturbater (i.e., someone who masturbates)?  Just a heads up!  

Assuming the code is still inside the machine somewhere, this is by far the least code intrusive option.  And it makes a lot of sense: while we might not all agree on facewraps or hoods up or sunslits inside the city, at least I think we could all agree that the authorities would crack down on people wearing mdesc-masking gear (whatever that amounts to) inside the city!  You could even have the NPC guards codedly give people shit about it, or even arrest them outright (like with spice).

This makes option (2), the gear approach, more attractive.

[Desertman]

Just make cloaks with hoods/facewraps show the description of said cloak/facewrap when you look at someone.

I was saw this in another MUD in the past. If the hood was up and you looked at them it showed their description to be nothing but the description of the cloak item.

It seemed to work pretty well.

As for a skill to hide your mdesc or whatever...I don't care about that...

[Asanadas]

Just let "examine" look through mdesc hiding gear.

That elf sprinting by you wearing a mask? You won't be able to tell his eye color and his missing left finger to the Templar. But if he stops and you get the chance to "examine" him (based on a heartbeat delay) then you can see through his disguise. Think of the delay on hide, or after kick -- that's a heartbeat delay (generally). A little longer than that, so someone could notice you trying to get through their disguise and bolt, or attack.

Where looking would be a hemote, examining would be immediately obvious they're trying to see through your disguise. Combat would interrupt it, for all you raiders out there.  

That way you don't have to worry about the edgelord sitting at the bar decked out in face covers - you can "see" through it if you look at them long enough.

That's my go at it, anyhow. I remember someone suggesting this route in the past, so it's not my original idea.

[TheWanderer]

Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting

I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).

Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.

And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.

I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.

Did you know that calling yourself a 'master baiter' sounds a lot like calling yourself a masturbater (i.e., someone who masturbates)?  Just a heads up!  

yes, that was my attempt at humor

or are you ribbing with me and making me doubt my ability to convey tone? or did I not make it seem intentional enough? fuckingidnuwjs goddamn toneless text

[nauta]

Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting

I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).

Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.

And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.

I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.

Did you know that calling yourself a 'master baiter' sounds a lot like calling yourself a masturbater (i.e., someone who masturbates)?  Just a heads up!  

yes, that was my attempt at humor

or are you ribbing with me and making me doubt my ability to convey tone? or did I not make it seem intentional enough? fuckingidnuwjs goddamn toneless text

Who's the master baiter now, baby?

Code Select Expand


>skills

Psionic powers
-------------------------------------------------
contact (master) baiting (master) barrier (novice)


[Marauder Moe]

Just make cloaks with hoods/facewraps show the description of said cloak/facewrap when you look at someone.

I was saw this in another MUD in the past. If the hood was up and you looked at them it showed their description to be nothing but the description of the cloak item.

THIS game used to have that.  All those items were removed by staff.

[Desertman]

Just make cloaks with hoods/facewraps show the description of said cloak/facewrap when you look at someone.

I was saw this in another MUD in the past. If the hood was up and you looked at them it showed their description to be nothing but the description of the cloak item.

THIS game used to have that.  All those items were removed by staff.

It's not the same thing apparently.

Those were items that hid your MDESC but also changed your short-desc to another description....which is odd I agree and should have been removed.

In that post the example was something like....the red-eyed dwarf found a mask that gave him the sdesc of the obese elf....

I mean this...

The figure in the black cloak.

look figure


This cloak is black, and this is all you are going to see about this person because their face is hidden by this black cloak.

You would still be able to see their gear list obviously. The only thing that changes is their mdesc is the description of the cloak and nothing else.

[Delirium]

The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.

Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.

You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.

Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.

[hyzhenhok]

I love stealth characters and I don't think this needs to be implemented. Trying to live a double life where you have a normal social life but secretly engage in whatever anti-social activity that requires hiding your identity should be difficult. This is largely a non-issue when you're not worried about your character having a reputation for being a criminal or a raider.

If players are abusing the fact that they are given the full mdesc when they look at a cloaked/masked character, we should address that player behavior (and especially hold players who have the IC power to deal with anti-social PCs to a high standard) rather than add something easily abusable to the other side. I already know several players play this correctly--I have seen militia PCs who tried to abuse the mdesc-matching thing to catch a criminal slapped down and the criminal let off when the templar realized what had happened.

[valeria]

The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.

Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.

You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.

Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.

This says all the things I would say.

[Delirium]

I love stealth characters and I don't think this needs to be implemented. Trying to live a double life where you have a normal social life but secretly engage in whatever anti-social activity that requires hiding your identity should be difficult. This is largely a non-issue when you're not worried about your character having a reputation for being a criminal or a raider.

If players are abusing the fact that they are given the full mdesc when they look at a cloaked/masked character, we should address that player behavior (and especially hold players who have the IC power to deal with anti-social PCs to a high standard) rather than add something easily abusable to the other side. I already know several players play this correctly--I have seen militia PCs who tried to abuse the mdesc-matching thing to catch a criminal slapped down and the criminal let off when the templar realized what had happened.

It is just hard to reinforce, almost impossible, and the player may not even realize they're doing anything bad as they might come from a gaming environment where it was no big deal. But the damage is done, whether or not they meant poorly by it, and that character had their life unrealistically affected.

It's better to have the coded reality reflect as much as possible the IC reality so that there's less room for error. I myself would prefer not to know, as it's even easier to go off what I know rather than have to constantly worry whether I missed seeing a facewrap in the eq list.

Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.

[Desertman]

The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.

Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.

You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.

Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.

This says all the things I would say.

Same here.

[hyzhenhok]

Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.

Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character. And who can blame them, when we know we do have players who will use any excuse to exercise the full might of their coded power to smack antagonist PCs down? You don't really help conflict by giving PCs a nearly foolproof way to hide their identities, because conflict needs to be a two-way street. Master burglars and pickpockets. if roleplayed poorly but knowing the code well, can rob every PC in a city blind without adding an ounce of conflict to the game. Mdesc hiding objects are not much different from invisible-mode sneaks.

I'd much rather see the the reasons why antagonist PCs try to avoid conflict backlash addressed. Like making sure we avoid a player culture of full exercise of coded power given an excuse (especially by high karma/sponsored roles), and the ridiculous time investment needed before a combat-oriented antagonist character becomes feasible.

[Desertman]

Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.

Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character. And who can blame them, when we know we do have players who will use any excuse to exercise the full might of their coded power to smack antagonist PCs down? You don't really help conflict by giving PCs a nearly foolproof way to hide their identities, because conflict needs to be a two-way street.

I'd much rather see the the reasons why antagonist PCs try to avoid conflict backlash addressed. Like making sure we avoid a player culture of full exercise of coded power given an excuse (especially by high karma/sponsored roles), and the ridiculous time investment needed before a combat-oriented antagonist character becomes feasible.

This is a good idea for another thread about the fundamental behaviors of PC's as a whole in the entire game. However, this is a thread about making cloaks hide your description....

[hyzhenhok]

This is a good idea for another thread about the fundamental behaviors of PC's as a whole in the entire game. However, this is a thread about making cloaks hide your description....

And I'm explaining why such cloaks are a bad idea. There is a reason they were removed before.

[Case]

I'm way for it.

* Put in place serious rules against abuse, because some players are shit about stuff like it.
* Allow for some command that breaks it. SoI did it, with stare, and that was an interesting counter. If stare is no combat, and can't be done to hiddens or invises, seems about right for a counter.
* Social rules in place for it.

[Desertman]

This is a good idea for another thread about the fundamental behaviors of PC's as a whole in the entire game. However, this is a thread about making cloaks hide your description....

And I'm explaining why such cloaks are a bad idea. There is a reason they were removed before.

Because they weren't coded in any way like these would be coded....

They literally made dwarves look like elves in the past. They were made for specific people and if that person lost the item, well, it made crazy things happen. It isn't related to this in any way really.

They weren't removed because they hid your mdesc. They were removed because they did weird things like potentially changing your entire race at a glance...pretty nuts.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm way for it.

* Put in place serious rules against abuse, because some players are shit about stuff like it.
* Allow for some command that breaks it. SoI did it, with stare, and that was an interesting counter. If stare is no combat, and can't be done to hiddens or invises, seems about right for a counter.
* Social rules in place for it.

Whatever the mechanism for hiding Mdescs (skill-based, gear-based, hybrid) I'd be cautiously game so long as it had these counters.

Simply relying on scan is not enough, as it is hardly a counter now.

[hopeandsorrow]

Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.

Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character.

To be fair, almost everyone in this thread has suggested code/commands/ways to determine the obscured player.  No one wants shady types having a 'fool proof' way of obscuring their mdesc.

I know you spoke of anecdote about a Templar smacking down a PC reciting line for line a mdesc.

But I've seen the opposite, down to the uncommon adjectives in their sdesc.  The situation was discouraging, yet funny, and at the same time understandable.  Stakes were high in that situation.  The particular PC describing said thief was put in a very difficult situation OOCly, a situation inherently unfair to both parties.  Purposely lose against the interests and motivations of your PC? For the sake of another you're in conflict with? That's a tall order considering the level of effort put forth into the game.

Too much of the current system makes the antagonist rely entirely on players respecting the honor system.   There no way to determine if a victim did in fact notice the tattoo on their arm or the color of their eyes and remembers them clear as day.  It's entirely within a PC victims agency, which puts a lot of competing pressure on that player.  Do they go for the 'win' for justice? Or do the accept loss for the sake of some one else's story?  Do they purposely forget the mdesc or the minor details.  Like brown eyes? Or Hazel eyes? Would you notice the different if some crazed spiced out raider is barreling down on you?

Players shouldn't have to deal with that dilemma in my opinion.  If there was code in place that allowed both the shady and the victim to engage in an interaction with the cold hard world of math and character sheets deciding the outcome of who noticed what.  Then they can simply worry about responding like their character would.

I can't think of any other example where the player base is asked to go by the honor system in terms of interactions.  We almost always have code to rely on.  Who won what fight, who stole from who, did you notice the guy in the bushes or not.  There is code for that, it works.  It allows the player to leverage their skill list to help their RP, they aren't held to any system of honor that can be applied arbitrarily to any situation.  

[nauta]

I can't think of any other example where the player base is asked to go by the honor system in terms of interactions.  We almost always have code to rely on.  Who won what fight, who stole from who, did you notice the guy in the bushes or not.  There is code for that, it works.  It allows the player to leverage their skill list to help their RP, they aren't held to any system of honor that can be applied arbitrarily to any situation.  

Well, there's pregnancy.  So in a sense, our honor system kicks in when someone knocks us up or knocks us out.