Hiding Mdescs: Ways to Implement It

[RogueGunslinger]

I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.

I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.

This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.

It equally makes no sense that you can see someones features when they're covered up. I think you will run into less situations where it is troublesome than the current system(or lack of) is, if people could obscure the M-desc.

[hopeandsorrow]

I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.

I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.

This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.

It equally makes no sense that you can see someones features when they're covered up. I think you will run into less situations where it is troublesome than the current system(or lack of) is, if people could obscure the M-desc.

+1

[JackGibbons]

I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.

I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.

This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.

It equally makes no sense that you can see someones features when they're covered up. I think you will run into less situations where it is troublesome than the current system(or lack of) is, if people could obscure the M-desc.

Right. The proper coded solution to that is pretty involved. Other RPIs will have you describe each body part separately in a fill-in-the-blank form rather than having a free form paragraph editor in which you can describe multiple features in a sentence and so on. Then it codedly generates the mdesc based on partially or fully obfuscating the various body parts as they're covered by gear. I think it's the right balance point, since total mdesc hides leave out some major features that could still be roughly seen as others have listed above. But it's quite the change from the basic paragraph method and the much simpler solution is just to have people use their brains and filter what they read for what their char can reasonably know.

Though as others have said, this creates pressures for how to do it, and making it 100% code avoids having to make tough decisions in some cases.

[Kyviantre]

I'd be up for adding a few lines into char gen along the lines of:

When masked....
What colour are your eyes: Blue/Green/Red/Grey/Brown/Hazel/Gold/Silver/etc etc
What body shape is your character: Brick wall/lithe/slim/muscular/skinny/curvy/athletic?
What colour is your hair: blah
What style is your hair: blah

Add in height/weight/race/gender, and mix and match on what shows depending on sunslits, masks, and hooded cloak (hooded or deep hooded).

That said!

On another game I play, it gets rid of the desc completely.  Which is fine.  BUT!  Armageddon, even when hooded, you can target people by keyword.  If I see you and your name is Jack, and I sort of remember the fact that you had a sapphire sabre, I can try 'look jack' and if it -is- you, it'll show me the spam.  When I'm talking to someone hooded that I'm struggling to remember because  it is 5am and I'm having a mental fail, I will hazard a guess.  Not to say that if it is someone obscure I won't pretend I don't know them, but it does help when it is your boss in a hood that you see daily, but because they have different clothing and their hood up, you suddenly can't remember the sound of their voice?

But...will prove a problem with hiding mdescs, because while I keyword sniff and only use the information if it makes sense IC, I also try to 'forget' peoples mdescs and get vague about them as required.  If people are remembering mdescs and sdescs, then they might well be using keyword sniffing to ruin all this.  And it is hard, because the last time I got attacked by a masked individual (which I didn't actually look at), I got rather hounded to tell people more than "It was so fast, I think their sdesc-masking-item was...er...blue?" (or whatever), and trying to even keep that item vague - was it a leather mask, a wood mask, a gemstone mask?  Was it a greatcloak, a stormcloak, a hooded cloak, an aba, a dress with a hood, a windcloak, etc, etc!  There is pressure to see more than I was comfortable sharing after what would have been a blur for my character.  It is hard to say "Sorry folks, it was blue.  OOC I saw the exact item, IC...it was blue.  Just blue.".

Not to say I'm against the idea - I am all for +1 mdesc hiding gear (sod skills, gear please!) that is available to people that actually use it (ie cheap, not 5000 word of sid!!).  From both a 'good guy' and a 'naughty guy' person perspective, mdesc gear!

[Beethoven]

Ideally, I'd just split the description into two parts, one being your full description, the other being a vaguer description of the things that would be visible if your face were obscured. So if you have a club foot in your main description, you would want to include that in your hidden description, your "hdesc" maybe. I don't like chargens that are too complicated and force you to tediously describe each body part separately. I think this would be the simplest happy medium between no mdesc covering and total mdesc covering.

Hoods should show the hidden description by default, but I'd also add the "stare" command with a long delay and a visible echo. You'd have to "stare" at a hooded person for a while to see their main description, during which time they can berate you or leave the room. If you "stare" at a hooded person that also has a mask on, you just get the hidden description again.

[JackGibbons]

Yeah you guys had way better ideas for how to do it without going the insanity levels of the full monty i described above. Just a few salient features when masked provided in chargen. Hopefully reviewed to make sure they match the regular desc

[Kyviantre]

Hopefully reviewed to make sure they match the regular desc

I saw someone walk past with (paraphased) the Sdesc 'the something and lythe woman'...drunk admin day?  That or the char was from North Yorkshire, in which case it made absolute sense   In short...two points.  1) I see so many typos and they pain me and I am both unapologetic for pointing them out and apologetic because it is such a compulsion, and 2) Relying on admin review, considering the odd things I see in descs (on my last char I saw someone wandering around with their eyes described twice in their desc...odd, but the salient point was they were described as being completely different colours ), is dubious at best.

(Side note: I am also not infallible, and please please please, if you spot a typo on my desc tell me, because I'd rather know now than catch it 2 months down the line and feel mortified ).

That said, a few extra lines with basic choices might work.  Don't allow every colour under the sun but force people to pick a vague shade.  Chestnut brown hair in your full desc, brown in your m desc,  emerald eyes equals green eyes, and so on.

I can see that being easier to QC than two descs and easier for newbies to get through.  It might also encourage newbies to describe those items and add an extra line to their desc (I also remember a not-a-newbie char who didn't put their eye colour in their full desc...yes, see...can't help myself ) a little descriptive fluff to a desc is nice and it can be hard to think of what to put.  That said, I'd suggest this for after writing the full desc into char gen.  That way you are just looking at the desc and picking the option that best suits what you've already entered.

I (for me) like the idea of two descs, but I can see the newbie pit of doom opening up there.  Similar with players who churn through chars.  If everyone did it well, it'd be fabulous, but I can see it being badly done by newbies who aren't really sure what they are doing or why, and done hurriedly by players with high char turn over.

The other game I play has literally nothing though.  Hood up/mask on and your full desc vanishes completely.  You get the Sdesc of the masking item (including height/weight details that are inches relevant rather than relevant to the viewer), and equipment, but the entire full desc is gone.  It works if people emote (they also have voice strings which sort of helps, although people are lazy about saymotes due to it), so I can see it working better on Arm with regards to people emoting their size and shape since the average caliber of RP here is pretty good.  But it does mean you are reliant on the PC's emotes plus their equipment list for giving them up to your local law enforcement.

[Eilwen]

I'm not a fan of mdesc hiding gear. I was writing a post about it, but then I thought...I'm sure if staff did decide to implement one of these suggestions they'd do a good job. All of these ideas are legit. Sometimes I can't tell for sure if I'm being stodgy. I will say when I saw mdesc hiding gear in armageddon in the past, the way it read was quite flat. However, if for some reason it was rebooted, surely something would be done to address that.

Sometimes I get a little meh trying to rename the tall, dark haired man. You know, he was big, but not fat...and his hair was blackish brownish...sort've. Not blond at all. So I could see how a newer player might get down to brass tacks. If someone does something obviously egregious, it's on all of us to assume it's done out of inexperience and either gently correct them ourselves or send in a polite note to staff.

We all came here to die. It's not the same as losing. All the stories short and long were meant to have an end.

[catchall]

I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.

This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.

Here's the fundamental problem with your argument: all the same gripes you have apply to mdescs, themselves.  If we didn't have mdescs in game, and someone suggested them, you would be apt to tell us all the same things.  "It makes no sense to have a desc that tells all about what someone's face looks like, because the PC might be facing away when you're looking at them, or a desc that tells what someone's hands look like when they might be wearing gloves.  There's just no way to fix this crazy 'mdesc' idea without a complicated markup language, so we might as well not do it."

In fact, an mdesc can be implemented super simply.  The first stage, a minimally viable product, if you will, is an always-visible mdesc.  That's what we have, hurray!  Then, if you want, go ahead and make incremental improvements to your minimally viable product -- like tdesc!  Another incremental improvement -- easy mdesc hiding with easy deconcealment (itself a minimally viable feature to facilitate concealment roleplay, that could have its own incremental improvements built).

You understand that mdescs work because you have seen them work in game, so you are not forced to imagine that they can be only implemented by one of these complicated fever-dreams of a code system you keep suggesting.

[Lizzie]

I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.

This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.

Here's the fundamental problem with your argument: all the same gripes you have apply to mdescs, themselves.  If we didn't have mdescs in game, and someone suggested them, you would be apt to tell us all the same things.  "It makes no sense to have a desc that tells all about what someone's face looks like, because the PC might be facing away when you're looking at them, or a desc that tells what someone's hands look like when they might be wearing gloves.  There's just no way to fix this crazy 'mdesc' idea without a complicated markup language, so we might as well not do it."

In fact, an mdesc can be implemented super simply.  The first stage, a minimally viable product, if you will, is an always-visible mdesc.  That's what we have, hurray!  Then, if you want, go ahead and make incremental improvements to your minimally viable product -- like tdesc!  Another incremental improvement -- easy mdesc hiding with easy deconcealment (itself a minimally viable feature to facilitate concealment roleplay, that could have its own incremental improvements built).

You understand that mdescs work because you have seen them work in game, so you are not forced to imagine that they can be only implemented by one of these complicated fever-dreams of a code system you keep suggesting.

Tdesc for this particular situation reverts us right back to where we started. You would be relying on player of the masked, and the observer, to both do what the code doesn't allow them to do: the masked must accept that only his face is covered, and the entire rest of his physical self is vulnerable to being positively identified. And the observer must accept that the masked's face is obscured. And both must be trusted to RP accordingly.

This already doesn't happen. That's WHY this thread exists. As long as there are players who reject either side of the responsibility, there will be a potentially fatal flaw (for the PCs involved) in the existing system. In the case of mdescs, the code doesn't support the roleplay. You can wear a veil on the hair that drapes down over the face, a face-obscuring helmet, with sunslits to make the eyes more difficult to see - and yet any templar will eventually be able to get someone to tell him that the girl with green eyes and scars criss-crossing her face is the one who he's looking for. This will happen even if the green-eyed, cross-scarred woman adds to her tdesc: Her face is completely hidden and veiled and shielded and you can't see what her face looks like. At all.

[catchall]

Stay on task, Lizzie. tdesc is just an example of how features are added to existing features over time to make them richer, it's not a way to replace mdesc-text (although it is, and has been, a simple, elegant, incremental step toward supporting that kind of roleplay with cooperating participants -- just like features suggested in this thread would be).  Check the tdesc helpfile if you're having trouble with that.

In your rush to be contrary, you've also somehow tricked yourself into arguing against mdescs, at all, since now you actually are pointing out supposedly unsolvable conundrums with mdescs in-game.  This was meant to be an example of something ridiculous to assert, not a position you should pursue.  Of course there are always going to be inconsistencies; this is a computer program that outputs text, not an actual magical world.

The text coming from the game will never be a 100% perfectly accurate simulation of exactly what your imaginary character would experience within the imaginary world of the Zalanthas.  (Put this on a post-it note by your monitor and review before incrementing your post-count if you must.)  That is an insane standard to apply to any new feature or incremental improvement on the game.  If this kind of logic was valid, no one would even bother to start making a roleplaying game, at all.  You are basically saying that unless we can solve--in one fell swoop--one of the most fundamentally unsolvable software development problems of all time (All Abstractions Leak) in one of the most complex and ambitious settings imaginable (simulating an entire imaginary world), then we shouldn't do anything at all.

I'm urging you, instead of just airing your feelings about how something will never be the perfect ideal you have in your mind, maybe give a try to scripting a simple computer game.  You may see things very differently once you take some time to think about how to get a computer to do something, rather than come up with excuses why they can't.  They are very different tasks that yield very different results.

[Case]

I'll suggest again the idea that we are able to choose, once (unless a psion), our way sdescs, and maybe even be able to assign it to separate way keywords. If the target for that is unknown, the game could only show the keywords that the contacter entered.

That fixes the way sdesc problem of sdescs. Think about it.


As for mdesc covering physically... it is a tricky problem. It would require hardcoding values, or tagging descriptor words somehow. When we designed this for Futuremud, we mixed the two together and use a series of patterns that mesh the desc words together, then give the player the option to choose which mdesc makes the most sense and reads the best. It means that eye colour, hair colour and all distinguishing looks are database values and the desc kept as a markup. All values could change during play and would automatically change in the descs.

Now that would be cool, but I'd happily settle with mostly hardcoded values and making people treat their entire mdesc as a tdesc, possibly having a memory bank of various writeup, and expect players not to abuse it. Their coded wear of clothing would also automatically hide the basics or not, meaning those values can't be written out by a cheaty tdesc.

I think it'd be really interesting tbh. Arm doesn't -need- freeform fixed akways on mdescs.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

There really is no way to "fix" it properly.

Actually, the simple, elegant, and (I'll be so bold as to say) correct solution has already been mentioned several times in this thread:  Easy mdesc-hiding + easy study/examine command to see through it with a delay and echo. That's it.

If it must be done, this would be the way to do it. It doesn't require an overhaul of the description system (a rant on that to follow), and it provides relative anonymity for people who are actually trying not to get caught. If you were to hang around trolling your victim, he would find you out quickly. No matter who he is, or what his skills looked like.

There should be items that hide your Mdesc but they should be very expensive/rare, master merchant stuff.

Fuck man. Just no.

A piece of bone : 10 coins.
A scrap of leather : 25 coins.
Turning ordinary scrap into something useful for climbing or extra damage in combat: 2000 coins.
Zalanthan economics : senseless (at times).


So, there was a lot of back and forth about this coin with its two sides, and the simply put, both sides are correct.

My philosophy on sdesc & mdesc words is that they should be picked carefully to convey a sense of your character to other players. You know how it is said that people form an opinion of you in the first 5 seconds of meeting you? Well, in Armageddon, we form an immediate opinion of you based on your sdesc. And this opinion transcends merely seeing what you look like. Your sdesc often sets a tone for your character that is not easy to change. And at that rate "atramentous" and "black" are not the same thing.

If "the tall, black-haired man" and "the lofty, atramentous-locked man" walk into a bar and I bet you that you couldn't pick the noble without using the "look" command, who would you put your money on? Sure, nothing's preventing you from rolling up "the lofty, atramentous-locked man" as a rinthi, and playing him as a disgusting, yellow-toothed lech, but I've never seen it done, because on some level we all know that that is a description for a more refined individual.

Should we describe you as "atrementous-locked" when someone asks us what you look like? No, probably not, but if you pick your keywords from a foreign-language thesaurus, and then whine that you're easy to pick out, you have no-one but yourself to blame. Don't play criminals that are so distinctive.

How about the other side where you play a totally nondescript guy, "the tall, brown-haired man". Is that cool? Absolutely. Nobody in any world, real or fantasy, can describe a person in such a way that they could be easily picked out of a crowd by a person who's never met them before. The only caveat is extremely distinctive features, but there's no way that applies to more than 5% of the population, and it doesn't say anywhere that you have to play someone from that 5%. In fact, you probably shouldn't. Thinking about it in real life terms, what is the police description of a suspect? Usually skin color, hair color, height/weight, clothing, scars or tattooes.

[hopeandsorrow]

There should be items that hide your Mdesc but they should be very expensive/rare, master merchant stuff.

Fuck man. Just no.

+1

[nauta]

Catchall's suggestion (which brings together the ideas above) is spot on: a detection skill coupled with masking gear/skill.

I do want to say that I played on a MUD where raise your hood on certain cloaks masked your mdesc.  The annoying thing with this was that all the hoodlums would just run around with their hoods up, and you'd have no idea who was who.  Which is the point, right?  The problem is they would do it with no virtual consequences: they'd walk into the popular bar, hooded up, and just, in general, walk around with hoods up and have casual conversations.  From my end, I was like: I'm speaking to someone I have no idea who they are, and they are acting like it's nothing at all!

That said, the solution here would be (in addition to the detection skill) to have Vennant insist on a hoods down policy -- put a bouncer at the door: Naw, we don't serve folks like you.  Go back to the rinth.  (If not the Gaj, at least Red's and those other fancy bars.)

If you are masked, you should be treated STRANGELY -- not just with suspicion.

[Asmoth]

Catchall's suggestion (which brings together the ideas above) is spot on: a detection skill coupled with masking gear/skill.

I do want to say that I played on a MUD where raise your hood on certain cloaks masked your mdesc.  The annoying thing with this was that all the hoodlums would just run around with their hoods up, and you'd have no idea who was who.  Which is the point, right?  The problem is they would do it with no virtual consequences: they'd walk into the popular bar, hooded up, and just, in general, walk around with hoods up and have casual conversations.  From my end, I was like: I'm speaking to someone I have no idea who they are, and they are acting like it's nothing at all!

That said, the solution here would be (in addition to the detection skill) to have Vennant insist on a hoods down policy -- put a bouncer at the door: Naw, we don't serve folks like you.  Go back to the rinth.  (If not the Gaj, at least Red's and those other fancy bars.)

If you are masked, you should be treated STRANGELY -- not just with suspicion.

I played a guard on that game who threw countless people in jail or fined them for that.

[Delirium]

If it means people would stop wearing ridiculous masks 24/7 or at least take them off at the bar to drink, I'm all for it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

If it means people would stop wearing ridiculous masks 24/7 or at least take them off at the bar to drink, I'm all for it.

Amen sista! Masks should have a condition on them that steadily lowers your wisdom the longer you have them on, since they're basically the Ed Hardy shirts of Zalanthas.

[nauta]

I make fun of people with masks on in-game... in my thoughts and feels, since they are usually muls.  You should get the echo every five minutes:

Code Select Expand


The noxious stink of rotting flesh and fetid offal overwhelms your senses from inside the mask, and you shiver uncomfortably!


[hopeandsorrow]

Well I would hope Guards and everyone would openly harass a sole mdesc hiding PC chilling at the bar.

You should, harass that type of person.  Geeze.

[Lizzie]

Attempting to eat and drink while wearing a face-covering mask should be severely hindered, or made impossible.

[BadSkeelz]

You attempt to smoke a thickly packed tube of spice.

The dry material of your fancy mask quickly catches fire, burning your face!

[Alesan]

You attempt to smoke a thickly packed tube of spice.

The dry material of your fancy mask quickly catches fire, burning your face!

[Asche]

Hi. I've played my share of sneaks to varying degrees of success. Most of those degrees were failure, btw, especially early on. Just want to chip in with this: I'd like to trust you, but I don't. I don't trust you to not share that I'm a pickpocket or a burglar with whoever is in your Arm social circles. I don't trust you not to react like I murdered your baby if you catch my hand in your pocket in the Gaj. I don't trust you to not constantly use the watch command on me at all times the moment you know I can peek. I don't trust you not to spam movement away if I take a moment to emote coming out of the shadows. I don't trust that if I get a partial fail on steal, but I'm the only PC in the room, you won't go forward IC as if you had caught me in the act. If I don't want you to know my mdesc, its because time and time again my faith in this relationship between sneak and non-sneak has been betrayed. I don't dislike you. I just have to treat you like a volatile substance, and not let you ruin everything I've worked towards with your OOC motivations.

So, do I want masks and cloaks? Fuck yeah. I personally would prefer to only wear them on the job, though. I mean, wearing a mask elsewhere is basically announcing 'I am a threat' when you walk into the Gaj. Just treat the masked man like he's a masked man and they won't become the accepted norm. Besides, having played a criminal managing a public and a professional face? Its pretty damn fun to play both. I think the real question is, is it alright for a character to be outed and ruined because they fail a stealth-related roll, and you managed to get off a look command. I say no. Covering your face to hide your identity is like... the most basic precaution one can think of. Its frankly a little asinine I can't.

[Lizzie]

Covering your *face* isn't the issue though. The issue is that some people want a face-covering mask to obscure your entire mdesc.