Look Echo for Hemote 2016

[LauraMars]

Please turn the look echo into a hemote with a chance to be noticed, unless emotes are attached to it with () and [].  It has never made sense to me that the act of looking at someone is so noticeable that everyone in the room will see you doing it, no matter where they're sitting, no matter what they're doing.

It adds very little to the game but spam, can make people nervous to look at templars, and often results in weird meta play involving the scan and hide skills. (Oh, that person looked at me - I guess they either have a high scan skill or I'm not hidden/invisible!)

Half my logs of parties and gatherings with more than 5 characters present are filled with people looking at other people - so many people looking at other people, in fact, that my screen is spammed with that, instead of their talking, their emotes, and their actual meaningful roleplay.  I'd prefer to see all that stuff, instead of yet another echo about someone looking at someone else.

I've been saying the look echo needs modification or removal since I started playing this game.  It's one of the very first topics I made a thread about, and here I am, making a thread about it again a decade later (Sorry, Agent_137). Let's discuss it!

[Saellyn]

+1. Nothing else to add.

[BadSkeelz]

+1. Nothing else to add.

[Delirium]

[LauraMars]

Also, I added a poll.

[Refugee]

Definitely.

[puella]

I like the idea so much I'm voting with my alt account!

[Case]

I'd say it should be a free action if you're hidden, invis etc, or are scanning and the victim is hidden, invis etc.

[CodeMaster]

I used to vote no on this issue (look echoes feel quintessentially "mud" to me and like one of the building blocks of interaction in the genre) but now I guess I wouldn't mind.

But isn't it pretty easy to just get your client to gag the look messages?

[nauta]

I vote yes, a million times yes.  However, in the interest of the debates, I seem to recall the arguments con being something like:

o Shady types will get screwed if you remove the look echo.  

But I honestly forget what the argument there was.  I'll have to dig it up.

(I don't like removing it altogether -- make it hemote.  SoI has it removed, and it's just annoying, especially if we combine it with our lack of a visible 'afk' flag, then we really won't know if someone is afk or just ... um ... roleplaying the quiet stoic type.)

[CodeMaster]

(I don't like removing it altogether -- make it hemote.  SoI has it removed, and it's just annoying, especially if we combine it with our lack of a visible 'afk' flag, then we really won't know if someone is afk or just ... um ... roleplaying the quiet stoic type.)

Yeah there's something to be said for giving PCs who don't emote a pulse of sorts.

[Alesan]

(I don't like removing it altogether -- make it hemote.  SoI has it removed, and it's just annoying, especially if we combine it with our lack of a visible 'afk' flag, then we really won't know if someone is afk or just ... um ... roleplaying the quiet stoic type.)

Yeah there's something to be said for giving PCs who don't emote a pulse of sorts.

I was the single person who voted remove it entirely, though I spent a good while pondering between that and hemote. I like it when MUDs have absolutely no echo whatsoever.  I suppose without a look echo, those stoic PCs would have to find some other way to indicate that their player is actually watching the screen, and willing to roleplay.

But I'm definitely tired of all the look spam, and while yes, I could gag it from my client's display, that doesn't stop the general "staring contest" culture MUDs with an always-visible look echo always have.

I'm curious about the argument that no look echoes hurts the shady types, though. Someone explain?

[nauta]

Found it!  Naturally, it was in a thread about being topless. 

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49617.msg893883.html#msg893883

I haven't re-read it thoroughly, but roughly I think the idea seems to be that people might abuse the fact that we can see mdescs when we look.  Although... I'm honestly not too sure I see the connection with the look echo on that, but I think it's related to the worry that if you look at a bad guy, they will kill you, and so bad guys want to know if you looked or not?

Maybe someone could clarify, but it seems like hemote would solve this problem -- plus, you know, being good role-players...

[TheWanderer]

I'm curious about the argument that no look echoes hurts the shady types, though. Someone explain?

because then you don't know if you're visible to people or not (which is how it should be - you're trying to blend, you're not invisible). when you get the "guy looks at you," you know you're failing the skill and it's time to enter "hide" again. with it as a hemote, you have a chance of spotting it or... not. that's how it should be.

i'm all for it, though. pretty sure this has been discussed multiple times.

edit: I think there's also an overwhelming consensus on the subject every time it's brought up.

[Alesan]

I'm curious about the argument that no look echoes hurts the shady types, though. Someone explain?

because then you don't know if you're visible to people or not (which is how it should be - you're trying to blend, you're not invisible). when you get the "guy looks at you," you know you're failing the skill and it's time to enter "hide" again. with it as a hemote, you have a chance of spotting it or... not. that's how it should be.

i'm all for it, though. pretty sure this has been discussed multiple times.

edit: I think there's also an overwhelming consensus on the subject every time it's brought up.

After thinking about it, I realized that was why. I can understand the sentiment that it might hurt sneaky types, but I don't think it screws them. From what people have said, it's way easy to skill up hide/sneak anyway, so I'm for making it a bit more difficult, if that's the case.

[whitt]

I'm curious about the argument that no look echoes hurts the shady types, though. Someone explain?

The general argument isn't really so much about the echo as the fact that folks can look at you and. despite every IC attempt to hide your mdesc, still see your mdesc.  Which means you are reliant on the proper RP of other players to not tell someone exactly who mugged/raided/ran by... etc.

[valeria]

This is the shady's problem with no look echo: you tell the guy not to look at you because there is no other coded way to remain anonymous. We really should be able to hide our mdescs with being totally wrapped and cloaked, but we can't. And people have definitely abused that in the past.

My suggested solution with hemote look: "watch" your mark.

[nauta]

My suggested solution with hemote look: "watch" your mark.

Not to mention most guild/subguild combos with hide/sneak have scan as well, so they should be picking up on the hemote, for the training worry (see TheWanderer's post) and the busted-bad-guy worry (see the Topless Thread).

As to the busted-bad-guy worry, it won't go away unless we get the mdesc-masking code (back?) in, but: I've taken to using tdesc to make it VERY clear to those looking at me that I am ninjashark shadow and there's very little you can obtain from me to feed to your precious templar.  Pretty much that verbatim actually. 

In any case, the pros always seemed to outweight the cons.

[TheWanderer]

with the overwhelming consensus on this, derail and start voting for the reappearance of mdesc hiding objects.

and make it so helmets do what masks do - the figure in a fur-lined, chitin helmet.

VIVA LA VIDA 2016

[wizturbo]

I really like this.  To echo Valeria's suggestion, the Watch skill is the counter for any Shady Types who have a problem with this.  Watch your mark, or choose a guild/subguild that have buffed Watch skill and you'll catch looks more often even if you aren't Watching the person in question.

[Alesan]

with the overwhelming consensus on this, derail and start voting for the reappearance of mdesc hiding objects.

and make it so helmets do what masks do - the figure in a fur-lined, chitin helmet.

VIVA LA VIDA 2016

It'd be nice to have that feature, but you know what would happen - every single even slightly shady character would start wearing the cloak+mask combination at all times. I remember reading somewhere this is why it was removed to begin with? Completely hiding your identity is a powerful thing. And though some of us don't want to admit it, I think there are a lot of people who would love to abuse the mechanic to its fullest. And staff can't handle every single case of unreasonable use of cloak+mask that comes up.

[hopeandsorrow]

Edit: Off Topic moving threads

[TheWanderer]

with the overwhelming consensus on this, derail and start voting for the reappearance of mdesc hiding objects.

and make it so helmets do what masks do - the figure in a fur-lined, chitin helmet.

VIVA LA VIDA 2016

It'd be nice to have that feature, but you know what would happen - every single even slightly shady character would start wearing the cloak+mask combination at all times. I remember reading somewhere this is why it was removed to begin with? Completely hiding your identity is a powerful thing. And though some of us don't want to admit it, I think there are a lot of people who would love to abuse the mechanic to its fullest. And staff can't handle every single case of unreasonable use of cloak+mask that comes up.

It's an easy IC fix by having the Templarate and citizens declare masks and facewraps within the city too shady for comfort. We have RL businesses and establishments that don't allow these types of items for the same reason. Now, cloaks should't hide mdesc, but masks, facewraps, and some helmets? Yes.

It's ridiculous that you can't do anything in disguise because everybody can just automatically spot you through a dozen layers of sandclotch. I MUST HAVE A MASQUERADE BALL.

Edit: One of the helpers move this to Nauta's thread, please.

[Alesan]

Snipped due to being off topic.

[valeria]

My suggested solution with hemote look: "watch" your mark.

Not to mention most guild/subguild combos with hide/sneak have scan as well, so they should be picking up on the hemote, for the training worry (see TheWanderer's post) and the busted-bad-guy worry (see the Topless Thread).

Scan does not equal picking up on hemotes. That's the "watch" skill.