Surviving a Raid - tips and hints

[Lizzie]

I made this thread because a few other threads are being used to discuss this topic, and it seems like it might be useful to have its own topic.

My suggestions are mostly to understand that a PK isn't the same thing as a raid.

Distinguish between a raid and a pk. The two are not the same. A raid is when the raider wants something from your character OTHER than his life. A PK wants your life - in addition to any other things he might also want.

A raider can become a PK - but a PK is a PK. Whether he kills your character might be entirely up to you (but isn't always).

Players who play raiders, in my experience, aren't looking to fight with my character. They're looking to rob my character of some item, items, coins, my mount, my boots, whatever. *I* decide whether or not they kill my character, by my response to their demands.

I've played a raider, who has also killed characters - but never while raiding them. I kept the two things separate. If I killed them, it's because I was trying to kill them. I didn't care if they had something I wanted, that wasn't why I was going after them. I was going after them because I had reason to believe they needed to be dead. When I was raiding someone, I usually was just extorting them. The whole "if you give me 50 sids every week that I see you on my turf, I won't kill you." Or "as long as you stay away from my camp and leave one log in front of my tent every half-month, I won't tell the templar that you're secretly a spy for the other city. And remember my entire tribe knows this."

But if your character says "I'll never give you anything, over my dead body!" then all bets are off. Or if you give me lip "why should I give you anything?" "but I only have my boots, I NEED my boots!" "do you KNOW who/what I am?" "I have friends, they'll come after you!" "oh you're cute, who are you?" Any attempt to stall or distract from the inevitable - in my raider's mind, is an attempt to Way some friends to threaten my PC - or to challenge my PC's authority in this particular moment.

You can play it all kinds of ways, and you could even challenge my PC if you feel you have the edge that my PC might not be aware of. But it's a risk, and when you take that risk, you accept, in advance, the possibility that your character will end up dead. I accept that possibility every single time I raid someone - that my raider will end up dead as a result.

If you give in, you could make it interesting. "I'll give you my boots today but - how about I give you double the extortion you're demanding in the future, and in exchange, you'll have my back when that OTHER tribe starts pestering me?" Or "yes - one log. But wait! If I give you an extra log every other visit, will you make me one of your bows?"

You can turn that raid into something completely new, and end up involved in all kinds of plotlines, all because you gave in to the raid. If you reject the raid, then you have a pretty good chance of ending up with a mantis head. Raiders have the advantage going in, because it's likely they've been watching you before approaching you.

[RogueGunslinger]

There's really only one thing you need to do to survive a raid. Cooperate. Maybe not 100%, but cooperate. You don't have to grovel, or cry or make promises, though that's all great stuff which is fun too.

Really though raiding doesn't happen often enough to warrant this thread, imo. I've never died to a raider. I wish I would, that sounds like fun.

[CodeMaster]

Good food for thought Lizzie.

But OOCly, someone who's playing a raider isn't playing it for an easy way to make cash and business arrangements.

They're playing a raider because they want to play a conflict role.

In that sense if I decided to take on such a role, I'd be much more open to someone offering to join me so we can do bigger jobs, rather than offering to bring me a bunch of scavenge material.

Of course, not every raid can end amicably - otherwise we're at risk of
approaching parody.

[CodeMaster]

On that note, here's a salient quote from RAT:

I've seen one-hit backstabs, knives thrown from 2 blocks away, arrows shot through crowded rooms, fleeing from restraints just because they codedly can, people using stealth to vanish in the middle of a well-lit hallway, and a [bleeeeeeeep]ny.

When yo u think about it, we're engaged in a kind of prisoner's dilemma... except instead of ratting out the other party, both sides of conflict have this incentive to use more ungaming and thus more effective strategies (as above), stopping just shy of killing someone when they're gone or linkdead.

imo the best thing you can do when you're engaged in conflict with another player (be it through raiding, whatever...) is to loop other players in.  Make them witnesses to the conflict... let it blossom.

[whitt]

But OOCly, someone who's playing a raider isn't playing it for an easy way to make cash and business arrangements.

They're playing a raider because they want to play a conflict role.

Sure if by conflict, you mean taking people's stuff.  I, personally, feel that most folks want to believe OOCly that they're playing a conflict role, but really?  They're just playing someone that shits on other players and takes their stuff. 

Want proof?  When's the last time you wandered across someone solo RP'ing that they were out in the Flats, the Scoria, the Red, or anywhere really harassing the vNPC population?  Nope.  But, speeding through the wastes until they home in like a heat seeking missile on that PC grebber?  Yep.  On that. 

The OOC side of the conversation goes something like this: "Gimme your stuff ya spent RL time bored to death grebbing up or start a new character."
and: "What?  You had all the choices.  Conflict!"

Followed by: "Look at me conflicting as I run back to my safe house where no one can touch me."
and:  "It's so stupid that the entire Byn jumped my raider.  I was only hitting pathetic grebbers."

I've seen a couple of decent raiders that stuck around, chatted up what they were doing, and took a less than insane bribe to keep moving.  Gimme your beetle?  Yeah... that's a week of real life time spent getting another typing Forage x.  Nope.  Even if you're just taking a couple small, that's probably all that player was going to earn grebbing that day, meaning instead of RP'ing with other players, they can either spend another hour typing Forage x.  Or quit and go play Fallout 4. 
So, the grebber PC, already bored to death, decides it's not worth it to greb over and over again until the next Raider comes along and quits.  I think I've heard this story before.

How to survive a raid?  Don't leave the city walls in groups less than three.  The raiders will never darken your campsite.

[nauta]

How to survive a raid?  Don't leave the city walls in groups less than three.  The raiders will never darken your campsite.

I understand that this is a pretty perennial and controversial topic -- and just to put my cards on the table: I'm pro-raider.  (I've been a raider a few times, got some kudos for it, but never went to code; most of my raiding was virtual, and I think I made a whopping fifty sid from actual PCs.)

I just wanted to pop into this conversation to highlight what you said there.  I think you've unintentionally pointed to one of the benefits of having a raider out there: it encourages people to interact, and that can be a good thing: going out in groups, even hiring a Byn Trooper for protection.

If there isn't one out there already, I think a "HOWTO Raider" guide might be a really cool thing.

[whitt]

I think you've unintentionally pointed to one of the benefits of having a raider out there: it encourages people to interact, and that can be a good thing: going out in groups, even hiring a Byn Trooper for protection.

Actually it promotes folks sitting in the Gaj until they idle to quit unless they know someone else who grebs.  If they know someone else who grebs?  They would've already brought them along without the need for a raider.  Folks don't generally greb because they can't think of anything better to do with an hour of their day.

Hiring a Byn Trooper for protection?  (a) is not usually possible, I've tried, hard enough finding a sergeant for a real contract and (b) would cost more than you're likely to earn grebbing.  So you're just pre-raiding yourself.  Unless you've got a grebbing crew, then... you don't need the Bynner... catch-22.

If there isn't one out there already, I think a "HOWTO Raider" guide might be a really cool thing.

This I'd love to see. 

[hopeandsorrow]

Although I've stated in other threads,  Sometimes 'raiders' are use a hell of a lot of OOC knowledge about their 'victim' then perhaps we care to admit.

Again, you really expect players to want to stick around? Learn about the game? When they;ve ALWAYS have to be on the losing end?

Yeah I've given into raids, all it was, was a HUGE OOC inconvenience to me.  Great, now I have to spend hours mindlessly grebbing for a mount again. Great now I need to take a few hours I'd actually like role play, to earn enough coin so I'm not useless.

Again, perhaps some of you, don't have these issues.  I'm envious, but in the last few months all 'raids' come from this really bad place I think, especially. Half-giants, creatures who on the whole... I believe should be seeking guidance and belonging.  Not engaging in premeditated criminal activity all on their lonesome.

As well, again I call bad faith, you've got 3 karma of utter killing power, it's rather convenient that you 'raid' characters who matter little, have no risk to your OOC efforts, and ensure you will suffer no IC consequences.  Quiet intelligent decisions, considering.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if I wasn't always the victim, if it wasn't me getting pounded down, robbed, and then having happen again and again before my character can even matter to player base as a large.

Perhaps those of us victims, wouldn't be so salty if we saw punches and blows around the same weight, you know "plot" and "intrigue".  There is no plot or intrigue and bashing on day 1 unaffiliated PCs, its fun for the raider, annoying for the victim. 

[Delirium]

Half-giants, creatures who on the whole... I believe should be seeking guidance and belonging.  Not engaging in premeditated criminal activity all on their lonesome.

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

[wizturbo]

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

100% agree.  Half-giants shouldn't be lone raiders in most circumstances.

A raider having a half-giant minion is completely logical though.

[nauta]

Half-giants, creatures who on the whole... I believe should be seeking guidance and belonging.  Not engaging in premeditated criminal activity all on their lonesome.

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

Actually, if I see a half-giant out there, I usually default to sticking around, since I know OOCly that they are higher karma, and so if they up and smoosh me with no antecedent RP, I'll file that player complaint quicker than a virgin jozhal.  (A fortiori for muls.)

[Delirium]

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

100% agree.  Half-giants shouldn't be lone raiders in most circumstances.

A raider having a half-giant minion is completely logical though.

Even then, I can see a lot more fun coming out of the difficulty of training a naturally kind and curious (by the docs) half-giant to be a raider than in having zero problems training one to do your bidding. I don't think they should be able to "operate alone", because they're so easily led. You'd have to be very explicit and careful in how you taught them, or run into situations like this:

Pointing at the skinny, wild-haired grebber, the mustachoied, dark-haired man says to the tall, muscular half-giant, in sirihish:
   "Grab him."

The tall, muscular half-giant subdues the skinny, wild-haired grebber.

Squirming painfully in the giant's grip, the skinny, wild-haired grebber exclaims, in southern-accented sirihish:
    "Ow! Please! Let me go!"

The tall, muscular half-giant releases the skinny, wild-haired grebber.

The tall, muscular half-giant exclaims to the skinny, wild-haired grebber, in sirihish:
    "Okay, sorry!"

The mustachioed, dark-haired man poorly suppresses an irritated sigh.

[RogueGunslinger]

I find the idea that Raiders force people to stay inside the safety in the Gaj laughable. Raiders are not prominent enough to effect anyone's play-style. And anyone who's played a raider knows that they in fact encourage people to come banded together to hunt them down like they're Sorcerers.

I've been raided three or four times in 7 years. Hell, I've probably seen and heard about PC raiders on the in-game message boards and through other characters less than ten times.

[Delirium]

A little less tangentially, I've (almost) always enjoyed being raided, and interacting with them, but I have a feeling that's because I purposefully try to play dangerous situations to the hilt.

Sometimes I've cut deals with the raiders, because I was playing a 'kick it with the underdogs' sort, and sometimes I've (vaguely) reported them. It depends on the PC.

There's only been once where I rolled my eyes and said "REALLY??" to my computer screen, and that was a half-giant subdue/knockout despite me trying to interact with him and play out the scene.

It wasn't about "losing" - I still survived, and heck, he didn't even take much of my stuff. The situation just felt really silly and jarring to me.

[hopeandsorrow]

a naturally kind and curious (by the docs) half-giant.

See this how I interpret half-giant docs.

So, yes in a hope not to vague book.

I have seen at lest 5 half-giant lone raiders with a refusal to be trick or charmed.

To me, it comes off as a player use the coded power rewarded to them to rob me a low karma player of my efforts.

But I didn't mean to get this thread off topic.  Lizzie wanted to give tips for surviving a raider and being raided with grace.  I shouldn't of in theory, not voice my distrusts of these players here.  I should try to give the benefit of a doubt, but seeing that MO played upon me in the last year, particular when I was playing pc's who were obviously 'newish'  while an encounter on a PC who had a tiny bit more status (code wise/oocly)  the experience was entirely different, when if that player was player according to their own rules of their character, wouldn't they have tried the same thing? 

Which I guess would be a tip for raiders.  I'd be a more graceful victim if you actually seem unique, or if you actually appear to be risking something.  As oppose to using the pure raw Coded power afford to you to alleviate your own tedium at the expense of rewarding me more.

Again, I didn't mean to get this thread off topic.  I'd mind the raiding less the pk's less, if certain MO's weren't so eerily familiar.  I dunno if a particular player set a precedence and these are merely copy cats or if I'm seeing a consistent character concept crop up.

[Desertman]

One thing I can say for raiders though:

If you don't get vague-booked about at least three times on the GDB over the course of your "career", you don't deserve to be a raider.

[KankWhisperer]

Should be a feign death skill.

[Molten Heart]

Templars and military organizations seem to do fine with half-giant soldiers. Seems reasonable that conditioning a half-giant to be a raider would be similar. Half-giants don't seem to have what it takes to be long term serial criminals without someone calling the shots for them.

But about raiding in general... Raiders usually don't need their victims money, they usually just want power over their victims. It's a power play. Raiders who kill their marks aren't thinking ahead. If people keep dying they're going to stop exposing their characters and play somewhere else. It's not unlike a templar walking into a bar. If a Templar routinely walks into a tavern and accosts people and tosses them into the arena to die, players will stop playing characters in that templar's area and things will become boring. But in the case of a raider or raiders there's the chance for bounty hunters who may only be interested in killing the raider and not in taking time to roleplay the nuances but instead roleplaying only with coded commands to execute their pvp battle, which gets old.


So yeah, examples need to be made and that means someone may need to die in order to show how ferocious a raider but there's game play value in getting killed. Don't be afraid of raiders, but do what they say and get out of there. Wise raiders won't kill you or make the experience overly grievous and run the risk of players OOCly creating IC reasons to play elsewhere.

[Narf]

Just to provide some counter experiences, my characters have talked their way out of every single half-giant raider they've ever encountered. So there are people out there playing the dumb and easily fooled giant raiders.

[Inks]

I hope someone was vaguebooking about a pc of mine on here.

[Lizzie]

Surviving a Raid - tips and hints
« on: Today at 09:17:29 AM »
Reply with quote  Modify message
I made this thread because a few other threads are being used to discuss this topic, and it seems like it might be useful to have its own topic.

So uh - if no one else wants to actually discuss the topic, maybe a moderator would kindly lock it. I was really really wanting to AVOID talking about how to be a raider, who should be a raider, who shouldn't be a raider, or why being raided sucks or is awesome.

[bardlyone]

Should be a feign death skill.

Not to be cynical af but that seems like something that would lead to a lot of beheadings 'just to tie up loose ends'.

[BadSkeelz]

Beheading is awesome, loose ends or not.

I think we need a "how to get people to let you raid them" thread more than a survival thread. Surviving a raid is easy - either cooperate or run the fuck away.

The hard part is getting people to sit still and roleplay. I'd suggest shouting at people telling them you're coming in to the room. That little bit of Roleplay is enough to get me to give the raider a chance.

[bardlyone]

That's true. Usually the people who announce themselves are ready to roleplay, whether it's antagonistic or cooperative.

I've both been raided, and raided, but never played a "raider" per se.

The pc I had who raided someone did it once because the character in question had something her boyfriend equivalent's people thought was sacred, so she trapped the guy and demanded it back. When he showed he was willing to RP and not try and scan and spam look to see my pc (who was a whiran), she made herself visible, and RPed staying in the air a good ways above him (as he had melee weapons and she saw no bow). It was good times, and I hope the other person didn't mind it too much. That pc is also the only pc I've had to kill someone, but that was due to him threatening a different boyfriend's people and getting a lot of them killed - she made sure the guy knew he was dying for being a traitor.

When it comes to being on the receiving end, I miss the Red Fangs, honestly. I've been raided a few times, but the Red Fangs were my favorite, and the raid turned into working for/with them, mostly. There was another time where a guy came out, looked at the newbie in newbie gear with me, demanded the mount and all his newbie coin on pain of death, and of course I gave over what was demanded, but it was nowhere near as fun, and probably sucked hard for the new player involved. I get that being raided and/or pked with no visibl roleplay is awful, so I try never to do it to people. Given the way the code is set up, unless you have specific abilities, that's really damn difficult to do, which is part of why people run, and part of why people engage combat on entry to prevent it.

Perhaps some sort of trapping ability that emulates the abilities (nonmundane) which allow exits to be blocked, could be of help in this, if it were coded as a mundane skill.

[Dar]

okey. I've never seen that word before, but suddenly it's all over GDB.


Wtf is VagueBooking?