Surviving a Raid - tips and hints

[Lizzie]

I made this thread because a few other threads are being used to discuss this topic, and it seems like it might be useful to have its own topic.

My suggestions are mostly to understand that a PK isn't the same thing as a raid.

Distinguish between a raid and a pk. The two are not the same. A raid is when the raider wants something from your character OTHER than his life. A PK wants your life - in addition to any other things he might also want.

A raider can become a PK - but a PK is a PK. Whether he kills your character might be entirely up to you (but isn't always).

Players who play raiders, in my experience, aren't looking to fight with my character. They're looking to rob my character of some item, items, coins, my mount, my boots, whatever. *I* decide whether or not they kill my character, by my response to their demands.

I've played a raider, who has also killed characters - but never while raiding them. I kept the two things separate. If I killed them, it's because I was trying to kill them. I didn't care if they had something I wanted, that wasn't why I was going after them. I was going after them because I had reason to believe they needed to be dead. When I was raiding someone, I usually was just extorting them. The whole "if you give me 50 sids every week that I see you on my turf, I won't kill you." Or "as long as you stay away from my camp and leave one log in front of my tent every half-month, I won't tell the templar that you're secretly a spy for the other city. And remember my entire tribe knows this."

But if your character says "I'll never give you anything, over my dead body!" then all bets are off. Or if you give me lip "why should I give you anything?" "but I only have my boots, I NEED my boots!" "do you KNOW who/what I am?" "I have friends, they'll come after you!" "oh you're cute, who are you?" Any attempt to stall or distract from the inevitable - in my raider's mind, is an attempt to Way some friends to threaten my PC - or to challenge my PC's authority in this particular moment.

You can play it all kinds of ways, and you could even challenge my PC if you feel you have the edge that my PC might not be aware of. But it's a risk, and when you take that risk, you accept, in advance, the possibility that your character will end up dead. I accept that possibility every single time I raid someone - that my raider will end up dead as a result.

If you give in, you could make it interesting. "I'll give you my boots today but - how about I give you double the extortion you're demanding in the future, and in exchange, you'll have my back when that OTHER tribe starts pestering me?" Or "yes - one log. But wait! If I give you an extra log every other visit, will you make me one of your bows?"

You can turn that raid into something completely new, and end up involved in all kinds of plotlines, all because you gave in to the raid. If you reject the raid, then you have a pretty good chance of ending up with a mantis head. Raiders have the advantage going in, because it's likely they've been watching you before approaching you.

[RogueGunslinger]

There's really only one thing you need to do to survive a raid. Cooperate. Maybe not 100%, but cooperate. You don't have to grovel, or cry or make promises, though that's all great stuff which is fun too.

Really though raiding doesn't happen often enough to warrant this thread, imo. I've never died to a raider. I wish I would, that sounds like fun.

[CodeMaster]

Good food for thought Lizzie.

But OOCly, someone who's playing a raider isn't playing it for an easy way to make cash and business arrangements.

They're playing a raider because they want to play a conflict role.

In that sense if I decided to take on such a role, I'd be much more open to someone offering to join me so we can do bigger jobs, rather than offering to bring me a bunch of scavenge material.

Of course, not every raid can end amicably - otherwise we're at risk of
approaching parody.

[CodeMaster]

On that note, here's a salient quote from RAT:

I've seen one-hit backstabs, knives thrown from 2 blocks away, arrows shot through crowded rooms, fleeing from restraints just because they codedly can, people using stealth to vanish in the middle of a well-lit hallway, and a [bleeeeeeeep]ny.

When yo u think about it, we're engaged in a kind of prisoner's dilemma... except instead of ratting out the other party, both sides of conflict have this incentive to use more ungaming and thus more effective strategies (as above), stopping just shy of killing someone when they're gone or linkdead.

imo the best thing you can do when you're engaged in conflict with another player (be it through raiding, whatever...) is to loop other players in.  Make them witnesses to the conflict... let it blossom.

[whitt]

But OOCly, someone who's playing a raider isn't playing it for an easy way to make cash and business arrangements.

They're playing a raider because they want to play a conflict role.

Sure if by conflict, you mean taking people's stuff.  I, personally, feel that most folks want to believe OOCly that they're playing a conflict role, but really?  They're just playing someone that shits on other players and takes their stuff. 

Want proof?  When's the last time you wandered across someone solo RP'ing that they were out in the Flats, the Scoria, the Red, or anywhere really harassing the vNPC population?  Nope.  But, speeding through the wastes until they home in like a heat seeking missile on that PC grebber?  Yep.  On that. 

The OOC side of the conversation goes something like this: "Gimme your stuff ya spent RL time bored to death grebbing up or start a new character."
and: "What?  You had all the choices.  Conflict!"

Followed by: "Look at me conflicting as I run back to my safe house where no one can touch me."
and:  "It's so stupid that the entire Byn jumped my raider.  I was only hitting pathetic grebbers."

I've seen a couple of decent raiders that stuck around, chatted up what they were doing, and took a less than insane bribe to keep moving.  Gimme your beetle?  Yeah... that's a week of real life time spent getting another typing Forage x.  Nope.  Even if you're just taking a couple small, that's probably all that player was going to earn grebbing that day, meaning instead of RP'ing with other players, they can either spend another hour typing Forage x.  Or quit and go play Fallout 4. 
So, the grebber PC, already bored to death, decides it's not worth it to greb over and over again until the next Raider comes along and quits.  I think I've heard this story before.

How to survive a raid?  Don't leave the city walls in groups less than three.  The raiders will never darken your campsite.

[nauta]

How to survive a raid?  Don't leave the city walls in groups less than three.  The raiders will never darken your campsite.

I understand that this is a pretty perennial and controversial topic -- and just to put my cards on the table: I'm pro-raider.  (I've been a raider a few times, got some kudos for it, but never went to code; most of my raiding was virtual, and I think I made a whopping fifty sid from actual PCs.)

I just wanted to pop into this conversation to highlight what you said there.  I think you've unintentionally pointed to one of the benefits of having a raider out there: it encourages people to interact, and that can be a good thing: going out in groups, even hiring a Byn Trooper for protection.

If there isn't one out there already, I think a "HOWTO Raider" guide might be a really cool thing.

[whitt]

I think you've unintentionally pointed to one of the benefits of having a raider out there: it encourages people to interact, and that can be a good thing: going out in groups, even hiring a Byn Trooper for protection.

Actually it promotes folks sitting in the Gaj until they idle to quit unless they know someone else who grebs.  If they know someone else who grebs?  They would've already brought them along without the need for a raider.  Folks don't generally greb because they can't think of anything better to do with an hour of their day.

Hiring a Byn Trooper for protection?  (a) is not usually possible, I've tried, hard enough finding a sergeant for a real contract and (b) would cost more than you're likely to earn grebbing.  So you're just pre-raiding yourself.  Unless you've got a grebbing crew, then... you don't need the Bynner... catch-22.

If there isn't one out there already, I think a "HOWTO Raider" guide might be a really cool thing.

This I'd love to see. 

[hopeandsorrow]

Although I've stated in other threads,  Sometimes 'raiders' are use a hell of a lot of OOC knowledge about their 'victim' then perhaps we care to admit.

Again, you really expect players to want to stick around? Learn about the game? When they;ve ALWAYS have to be on the losing end?

Yeah I've given into raids, all it was, was a HUGE OOC inconvenience to me.  Great, now I have to spend hours mindlessly grebbing for a mount again. Great now I need to take a few hours I'd actually like role play, to earn enough coin so I'm not useless.

Again, perhaps some of you, don't have these issues.  I'm envious, but in the last few months all 'raids' come from this really bad place I think, especially. Half-giants, creatures who on the whole... I believe should be seeking guidance and belonging.  Not engaging in premeditated criminal activity all on their lonesome.

As well, again I call bad faith, you've got 3 karma of utter killing power, it's rather convenient that you 'raid' characters who matter little, have no risk to your OOC efforts, and ensure you will suffer no IC consequences.  Quiet intelligent decisions, considering.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if I wasn't always the victim, if it wasn't me getting pounded down, robbed, and then having happen again and again before my character can even matter to player base as a large.

Perhaps those of us victims, wouldn't be so salty if we saw punches and blows around the same weight, you know "plot" and "intrigue".  There is no plot or intrigue and bashing on day 1 unaffiliated PCs, its fun for the raider, annoying for the victim. 

[Delirium]

Half-giants, creatures who on the whole... I believe should be seeking guidance and belonging.  Not engaging in premeditated criminal activity all on their lonesome.

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

[wizturbo]

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

100% agree.  Half-giants shouldn't be lone raiders in most circumstances.

A raider having a half-giant minion is completely logical though.

[nauta]

Half-giants, creatures who on the whole... I believe should be seeking guidance and belonging.  Not engaging in premeditated criminal activity all on their lonesome.

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

Actually, if I see a half-giant out there, I usually default to sticking around, since I know OOCly that they are higher karma, and so if they up and smoosh me with no antecedent RP, I'll file that player complaint quicker than a virgin jozhal.  (A fortiori for muls.)

[Delirium]

I don't mind raiding, but I do mind half-giant raiders. By the docs, half-giants should not be raiders, and OOC, it's an obvious "easy mode" raider choice for people who just want to subdue/win.

100% agree.  Half-giants shouldn't be lone raiders in most circumstances.

A raider having a half-giant minion is completely logical though.

Even then, I can see a lot more fun coming out of the difficulty of training a naturally kind and curious (by the docs) half-giant to be a raider than in having zero problems training one to do your bidding. I don't think they should be able to "operate alone", because they're so easily led. You'd have to be very explicit and careful in how you taught them, or run into situations like this:

Pointing at the skinny, wild-haired grebber, the mustachoied, dark-haired man says to the tall, muscular half-giant, in sirihish:
   "Grab him."

The tall, muscular half-giant subdues the skinny, wild-haired grebber.

Squirming painfully in the giant's grip, the skinny, wild-haired grebber exclaims, in southern-accented sirihish:
    "Ow! Please! Let me go!"

The tall, muscular half-giant releases the skinny, wild-haired grebber.

The tall, muscular half-giant exclaims to the skinny, wild-haired grebber, in sirihish:
    "Okay, sorry!"

The mustachioed, dark-haired man poorly suppresses an irritated sigh.

[RogueGunslinger]

I find the idea that Raiders force people to stay inside the safety in the Gaj laughable. Raiders are not prominent enough to effect anyone's play-style. And anyone who's played a raider knows that they in fact encourage people to come banded together to hunt them down like they're Sorcerers.

I've been raided three or four times in 7 years. Hell, I've probably seen and heard about PC raiders on the in-game message boards and through other characters less than ten times.

[Delirium]

A little less tangentially, I've (almost) always enjoyed being raided, and interacting with them, but I have a feeling that's because I purposefully try to play dangerous situations to the hilt.

Sometimes I've cut deals with the raiders, because I was playing a 'kick it with the underdogs' sort, and sometimes I've (vaguely) reported them. It depends on the PC.

There's only been once where I rolled my eyes and said "REALLY??" to my computer screen, and that was a half-giant subdue/knockout despite me trying to interact with him and play out the scene.

It wasn't about "losing" - I still survived, and heck, he didn't even take much of my stuff. The situation just felt really silly and jarring to me.

[hopeandsorrow]

a naturally kind and curious (by the docs) half-giant.

See this how I interpret half-giant docs.

So, yes in a hope not to vague book.

I have seen at lest 5 half-giant lone raiders with a refusal to be trick or charmed.

To me, it comes off as a player use the coded power rewarded to them to rob me a low karma player of my efforts.

But I didn't mean to get this thread off topic.  Lizzie wanted to give tips for surviving a raider and being raided with grace.  I shouldn't of in theory, not voice my distrusts of these players here.  I should try to give the benefit of a doubt, but seeing that MO played upon me in the last year, particular when I was playing pc's who were obviously 'newish'  while an encounter on a PC who had a tiny bit more status (code wise/oocly)  the experience was entirely different, when if that player was player according to their own rules of their character, wouldn't they have tried the same thing? 

Which I guess would be a tip for raiders.  I'd be a more graceful victim if you actually seem unique, or if you actually appear to be risking something.  As oppose to using the pure raw Coded power afford to you to alleviate your own tedium at the expense of rewarding me more.

Again, I didn't mean to get this thread off topic.  I'd mind the raiding less the pk's less, if certain MO's weren't so eerily familiar.  I dunno if a particular player set a precedence and these are merely copy cats or if I'm seeing a consistent character concept crop up.

[Desertman]

One thing I can say for raiders though:

If you don't get vague-booked about at least three times on the GDB over the course of your "career", you don't deserve to be a raider.

[KankWhisperer]

Should be a feign death skill.

[Molten Heart]

Templars and military organizations seem to do fine with half-giant soldiers. Seems reasonable that conditioning a half-giant to be a raider would be similar. Half-giants don't seem to have what it takes to be long term serial criminals without someone calling the shots for them.

But about raiding in general... Raiders usually don't need their victims money, they usually just want power over their victims. It's a power play. Raiders who kill their marks aren't thinking ahead. If people keep dying they're going to stop exposing their characters and play somewhere else. It's not unlike a templar walking into a bar. If a Templar routinely walks into a tavern and accosts people and tosses them into the arena to die, players will stop playing characters in that templar's area and things will become boring. But in the case of a raider or raiders there's the chance for bounty hunters who may only be interested in killing the raider and not in taking time to roleplay the nuances but instead roleplaying only with coded commands to execute their pvp battle, which gets old.


So yeah, examples need to be made and that means someone may need to die in order to show how ferocious a raider but there's game play value in getting killed. Don't be afraid of raiders, but do what they say and get out of there. Wise raiders won't kill you or make the experience overly grievous and run the risk of players OOCly creating IC reasons to play elsewhere.

[Narf]

Just to provide some counter experiences, my characters have talked their way out of every single half-giant raider they've ever encountered. So there are people out there playing the dumb and easily fooled giant raiders.

[Inks]

I hope someone was vaguebooking about a pc of mine on here.

[Lizzie]

Surviving a Raid - tips and hints
« on: Today at 09:17:29 AM »
Reply with quote  Modify message
I made this thread because a few other threads are being used to discuss this topic, and it seems like it might be useful to have its own topic.

So uh - if no one else wants to actually discuss the topic, maybe a moderator would kindly lock it. I was really really wanting to AVOID talking about how to be a raider, who should be a raider, who shouldn't be a raider, or why being raided sucks or is awesome.

[bardlyone]

Should be a feign death skill.

Not to be cynical af but that seems like something that would lead to a lot of beheadings 'just to tie up loose ends'.

[BadSkeelz]

Beheading is awesome, loose ends or not.

I think we need a "how to get people to let you raid them" thread more than a survival thread. Surviving a raid is easy - either cooperate or run the fuck away.

The hard part is getting people to sit still and roleplay. I'd suggest shouting at people telling them you're coming in to the room. That little bit of Roleplay is enough to get me to give the raider a chance.

[bardlyone]

That's true. Usually the people who announce themselves are ready to roleplay, whether it's antagonistic or cooperative.

I've both been raided, and raided, but never played a "raider" per se.

The pc I had who raided someone did it once because the character in question had something her boyfriend equivalent's people thought was sacred, so she trapped the guy and demanded it back. When he showed he was willing to RP and not try and scan and spam look to see my pc (who was a whiran), she made herself visible, and RPed staying in the air a good ways above him (as he had melee weapons and she saw no bow). It was good times, and I hope the other person didn't mind it too much. That pc is also the only pc I've had to kill someone, but that was due to him threatening a different boyfriend's people and getting a lot of them killed - she made sure the guy knew he was dying for being a traitor.

When it comes to being on the receiving end, I miss the Red Fangs, honestly. I've been raided a few times, but the Red Fangs were my favorite, and the raid turned into working for/with them, mostly. There was another time where a guy came out, looked at the newbie in newbie gear with me, demanded the mount and all his newbie coin on pain of death, and of course I gave over what was demanded, but it was nowhere near as fun, and probably sucked hard for the new player involved. I get that being raided and/or pked with no visibl roleplay is awful, so I try never to do it to people. Given the way the code is set up, unless you have specific abilities, that's really damn difficult to do, which is part of why people run, and part of why people engage combat on entry to prevent it.

Perhaps some sort of trapping ability that emulates the abilities (nonmundane) which allow exits to be blocked, could be of help in this, if it were coded as a mundane skill.

[Dar]

okey. I've never seen that word before, but suddenly it's all over GDB.


Wtf is VagueBooking?

[LauraMars]

Wtf is VagueBooking?

It's a term that comes from when people post purposefully vague status messages about their life situation on Facebook or other social media sites.  Usually as a passive aggressive way of getting attention and validation.

[Desertman]

okey. I've never seen that word before, but suddenly it's all over GDB.


Wtf is VagueBooking?

It instantly qualifies you for a 7.5 minimum on the Rustled and Jimmies (tm) Mad-Bro Scale.

[Inks]

People complaining about being non-fatally raided.

........

[lostinspace]

okey. I've never seen that word before, but suddenly it's all over GDB.


Wtf is VagueBooking?

From what I understand it's when you put a status on facebook that is vague but negative, to get people to ask what's going on and draw attention. In terms of the GDB I understand it to be when you want to complain about a character/player/playstyle you do not agree with/enjoy/think is RPing well.

Here's a definition
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Vaguebooking

[RogueGunslinger]

So we all agree on what Vaguebooking is now, right? I'm not sure...

[nauta]

So we all agree on what Vaguebooking is now, right? I'm not sure...

I'm not sure of the etymology or whatever, but around here I think it's when you discuss stuff that is happening in the game on the gdb in a vague way. Since there's an actual rule against discussing stuff happening in the game on the gdb, people have to be vague, and thus you get vague posts (which somehow turns into vaguebook because Facebook rules?  Dunno.)

Usually, it's to complain, and it was noted in a few reviews on mudconnect as a pretty big turn-off to at least some people.  As far as I know, there's no rule against it (according to Forum Rules).

[manipura]

I'm pretty sure that RGS is very sure what vaguebooking is and he was just making a funny because it was already explained and then explained again and again.

[RogueGunslinger]

Err... weird. My post seems off now because I think some of the answers got moved or deleted. But I had previously explained the term, and so did someone else.

[nauta]

Err... weird. My post seems off now because I think some of the answers got moved or deleted. But I had previously explained the term, and so did someone else.

Hehe.

[Nergal]

Discussing things going on in-game vaguely is still discussing things going on in-game, so yes, "vaguebooking" is against forum rules when it's about IG matters.

Anyway, let's get back on topic.

[TheWanderer]

beg for your miserable life. if it was really beneath you, you wouldn't be in that position

[Lizzie]

Discussing things going on in-game vaguely is still discussing things going on in-game, so yes, "vaguebooking" is against forum rules when it's about IG matters.

Anyway, let's get back on topic.

Erm, there have only been three posts ON topic, including mine, which started the thread. I asked back on page 1 for the thread to be locked since no one wanted to actually talk about the topic. It was derailing into more of the same that was pushing the Random Arm topic and another one into just a bunch of negativity.

[Dalmeth]

Eh, I've looked through this, and I say the issue is how to raid, not how to survive.

The answer to that also seems to be, "Announce yourself."  If you approach with socializing, you'll get socializing.  If you approach with code, you'll get code.  Seems pretty simple.

If anything, it seems raiders focusing on successful raiding killed raiding.

[CodeMaster]

A followup question might be how we can open more sociable exchanges between raiders and victims?

Shouting from one room away is a possibility but requires one-room proximity.

Using the Way is probably out if you want to keep your naked sdesc a secret.

shoot east far would be a cool way to announce a raid.  What if it became a common thing for a red-fletched arrow hitting the ground between someone's feet to signify a raid, like a jolly roger?

[Majikal]

shoot east far would be a cool way to announce a raid.  What if it became a common thing for a red-fletched arrow hitting the ground between someone's feet to signify a raid, like a jolly roger?

We did this a couple of times in the Red Fangs to announce ourselves and scare people. Was my own idea, and my own arrowcraft. =P Made for some pretty cool scenes. Random thought: I miss all my Red Fang crafts, they were so rockin. =(

Also I didn't read much beyond the OP and title of the thread, so sorry if I'm recapping anything people already said but here's my piece.

As for surviving a raid, if a raider doesn't open up the scene with a coded command. Not that there's anything wrong with that, though it's never been my preference or style, but if they take the time to RP a raid for you, be that holding you at spearpoint or whatever, chances are they're looking to make a scene enjoyable for both parties. Take it, enjoy it, it's 20x better than an automated npc gith 'raid' I assure you. Usually the players that take the time to run a raider want nothing more than to see the outside world come alive and be dangerous. I haven't seen or been targeted by a random straight-to-combat raid in probably 5 years and I think that says something about the playerbase. If a raider gives up coded advantage/surprise to give you a scene, be grateful. They've already done you and them both a solid. Your hearts pumping while you stare at the screen, wondering what direction it's going to go. Their hearts pumping as they stare at the screen wondering the same thing. It's moments like that which make the game great.

I'd like to think those that ran Red Fangs back in the glory days made being a victim of raiding pretty damn enjoyable. Nothing made me smile more than spying on some salters while they emoted trembling and taking turns on watch because they heard stories of us. As a point of pride in tribal docs we never raided to kill, the only kills were when someone made the mistake of attacking us. The less of an advantage you had on your 'prey' the more pride the elf won with the tribe. We'd go so far as to raid nearly nude with only a skinning blade in hand, just to show that's how scary we were. Of course we'd be ridiculed if the prey gave us the slip or whooped our ass. Man I miss it... good times, good times. #redfangfanboy

/rambling

[Aruven]

Don't use the look command.

[555]

Don't use the look command.

Don't tell the mul not to worry about your salting buddy escaping because what did he want with that sunback anyway, when clearly your beetle is the superior mount?

[Aruven]

Don't use the look command.

Don't tell the mul not to worry about your salting buddy escaping because what did he want with that sunback anyway, when clearly your beetle is the superior mount?

If I am raiding, and I ride into a room and yell:

"Gimme yer feckin' sid!"

And the target; Doesn't look, doesn't talk, and strips down everything they have and drops it = I will take stuff and not kill them, and leave. We are talking about raiders specifically here.

If someone kills you after that evolution, they're a musty butt-hole in the sand and you had no chance anyways.
I also don't play anymore so you can't count on it being me. So maybe don't do this.

[Eilwen]

A followup question might be how we can open more sociable exchanges between raiders and victims?

Shouting from one room away is a possibility but requires one-room proximity.

Using the Way is probably out if you want to keep your naked sdesc a secret.

shoot east far would be a cool way to announce a raid.  What if it became a common thing for a red-fletched arrow hitting the ground between someone's feet to signify a raid, like a jolly roger?

If someone had the time and interest in writing a How To Guide for playing a raider and it was nicely done, I would be surprised if the staff wouldn't put it up for general player consumption. Then good ideas like this would become more mainstream, instead of lost amid the clamor of the GDB.

If only we knew a good writer, CodeMaster, with an inventive yet clear turn of mind and an interest in such things.

[555]

Don't use the look command.

Don't tell the mul not to worry about your salting buddy escaping because what did he want with that sunback anyway, when clearly your beetle is the superior mount?

If I am raiding, and I ride into a room and yell:

"Gimme yer feckin' sid!"

And the target; Doesn't look, doesn't talk, and strips down everything they have and drops it = I will take stuff and not kill them, and leave. We are talking about raiders specifically here.

If someone kills you after that evolution, they're a musty butt-hole in the sand and you had no chance anyways.
I also don't play anymore so you can't count on it being me. So maybe don't do this.

Well, they didn't kill my PC, they damn near broke their neck with that mace, though. Good times, they didn't even take /everything/, kudos to that mul.

[Armaddict]

As a note with gith...you don't survive.  Unless you run.

[RogueGunslinger]

As a note with gith...you don't survive.  Unless you run.

Yes. You should run from Gith for sure... But that will be obvious by the arrows sticking from your torso, possibly heralded by war-drums.

[Vwest]

How to survive a raid: Kill the raider.

[JackGibbons]

Don't use the look command.

Don't tell the mul not to worry about your salting buddy escaping because what did he want with that sunback anyway, when clearly your beetle is the superior mount?

If I am raiding, and I ride into a room and yell:

"Gimme yer feckin' sid!"

And the target; Doesn't look, doesn't talk, and strips down everything they have and drops it = I will take stuff and not kill them, and leave. We are talking about raiders specifically here.

If someone kills you after that evolution, they're a musty butt-hole in the sand and you had no chance anyways.
I also don't play anymore so you can't count on it being me. So maybe don't do this.

New here. Sorry for resurrecting, but I'm curious what people mean by 'not using look'. Do you mean don't look at 'the tall, red sandcloaked figure' who is speaking to you? It seems odd to me that you wouldn't even look at them. Staring/eyeballing is one thing, but simply looking at them seems like a normal response. I haven't been in many PvP/raiding scenarios, though. Is there a semi-OOC preference for raiders not to be the object of a 'look' command, treating it ICly as if they were being carefully stared at with disguise-penetrating eyeballs? Because people will try to play gear and desc games to 'out' people? Is it in fact a survival tip that when someone you don't know comes into the room with you but you suspect they might have hostile intent, not to use 'look' just in case they ARE hostile and will now want, semi-OOCly, to kill you before you can identify them?

[Molten Heart]

Raiders like to remain anonymous, the best way to do that is to make sure people don't see their main description. If a raider says don't look at me, and someone looks at them, the best way for a raider to maintain anonymity is to kill that person so they can't tell their story about how they got raided (accompanied with a description of the raider.)

[nauta]

Raiders like to remain anonymous, the best way to do that is to make sure people don't see their main description. If a raider says don't look at me, and someone looks at them, the best way for a raider to maintain anonymity is to kill that person so they can't tell their story about how they got raided (accompanied with a description of the raider.)

You know, I was thinking about this in relation to the mdesc-masking gear topic.  I agree with JG that to the new player, this is very bizarre meta behaviour, that only makes sense once you walk someone through the steps like Molten Heart did. 

At base, the problem is an OOC one: if everyone played by the 'rules' -- and so victims didn't report the exact mdesc of the raider even if the raider is all bundled up with facewraps, etc. -- then this wouldn't be the case.  But a lot of new players don't know these 'rules' -- they aren't listed anywhere, although they strike old players as common sense.  I think everyone agrees that this is the basic problem, and the solution put forward is to kill people that look (in the absence of mdesc-masking gear).  But what if we had another solution (no-code), namely:

Place at the end of your tdesc the following line (something like):

ooc: Please note that this character has his/her mdesc completely masked, and so your character would not know what they look like, and be unable to report anything more than the kind of cloak, gender, and size to authorities.

(Or something like that.)

It's a no-code solution: a gentle reminder to players to play nice with raiders, because we all love them so much.

[Asmoth]

Raiders like to remain anonymous, the best way to do that is to make sure people don't see their main description. If a raider says don't look at me, and someone looks at them, the best way for a raider to maintain anonymity is to kill that person so they can't tell their story about how they got raided (accompanied with a description of the raider.)

Until there is a way to hide mdescs, there is no way besides killing them to stop a guy from going to a Templar or whatever and going.

He looks like, pasted description, but I couldn't see anything else...

[Fujikoma]

Sadly, you can't trust players to NOT out your raider, maybe most times they don't, but it's safest just NOT to look.

[JackGibbons]

Raiders like to remain anonymous, the best way to do that is to make sure people don't see their main description. If a raider says don't look at me, and someone looks at them, the best way for a raider to maintain anonymity is to kill that person so they can't tell their story about how they got raided (accompanied with a description of the raider.)

Hmm, thanks for the replies guys. I'm specifically thinking about the case when they haven't told you 'don't look at me' yet, but you just have that habit of instinctively looking at people as they arrive (how else can you tell if they're armed, for example?). If you don't even look once, they might be holding you up with...no weapon at all, right? Maybe you can somehow work it into your emotes or at worst pop an OOC that you can't actually see the mdesc and just need salient features like - are they armed? - with what? or if you're just straight up curious and look (glancing over warily) when people pop into your room unannounced.

I'd hate for that to be a death sentence because other people can't handle attire masking.

[Delirium]

assess -v will tell you if they are armed, but I agree that the way things stand currently is not ideal. It's just the best compromise we have right now.

[JackGibbons]

Hmm, alright then. Good to know. I will try to train myself not to codedly look but instead to purely emote looking over warily (with verbiage that hopefully is distinct enough from coded look + emote) when there's any concern that someone popping into my room might be a raider, in order to avoid sending us down this road. I've lost a lot of PCs to stupid OOC lessons. Glad I found this thread before sacrificing another now that I've managed to make it to longer days played.

[whitt]

So instead, without looking, you get.

Militia: "What did this person raiding you look like."

Raidee: "I don't know"

Militia: "They searched your entire pack, took all your coin, and your beetle and the best you can give me is a dark cloak?

Raidee: "Umm..."

Militia: "You say they were armed?"

Raidee: "Oh!  Yes!  They were.  Definitely!"

Militia: "With What?"

Raidee: "Ummm... Don't Know".

Militia: "You don't know.  Were you conscious during this?  Or did you just close your eyes the whole time until they wayed you to open them?"

Raidee: "Ummm..."

Militia: "You know what?  I'm raiding you.  Right now."

Raidee: (covering eyes and bending over) "Well ok, but I already looked at you..."

*beep*

If you can't trust the player populace?  Don't play a raider.

If someone reports a raider to you?  Filter their information for them.  Per the above...

Militia: "What did this person raiding you look like."

Raidee: "pasted mdesc"

Militia: "So... this person was hooded, with a wrap over their face and you know for a fact that they're a buck-toothed breed?"

Raidee: "Ummm..."

Militia: "Why are you trying to frame this buck-toothed breed?"

[Molten Heart]

If you can't trust the player populace?  Don't play a raider.

You can't trust anyone, don't play a raider. Or just kill people who may threaten the existence of your character, it's a harsh gritty world.

[Asmoth]

One of the worst things to happen while playing a raider.

A foreign presence contacts you.

Kill guy, ding.

Your buddy telepathically sends you, "Hey what's up man?"

Think Fuck...

[Delirium]

"Well, militia fellow sir, they were taller'n me, and a big bigger, and wore a dusty old red cloak, and I didn't get much a good look besides that, cause they was standing behind me, so I just ain't sure."

"Fair enough, I don't give a shit about what happens to commoner trash outside the city walls anyway."

[whitt]

"Fair enough, I don't give a shit about what happens to commoner trash outside the city walls anyway."

This is an even better response.  So it really doesn't matter if they looked or not.

[nauta]

While I agree the onus should be on veteran players in the AoD/Templarate to transform dishonest admissions into more honest admissions, as suggested, and also to not do a damn thing, as also suggested, I think that's only part of the problem.  I've seen first hand how packs of independents and friends will insta-way each other the description of that guy who attacked their friend.  (Or other things, e.g., hiding a gem around your neck in the tdesc but that being conveniently 'overlooked'.) So it doesn't solve the whole problem.  Moreover, sometimes the description is filtered through many different characters, and so eventually there's little even a 'good' recipient can do -- they don't know if that person saw them unmasked or not.  (Sometimes sure.)

The problem is that the problem here is one of distrust, and that bothers me that the solution that veterans have at present -- if you look at me, I will kill you -- assumes OOC mistrust, both of the victim and their friends.  (I think a lot of us would actually trust the AoD/Templar to RP appropriately.)

Frankly, it's not an ideal solution at all.

Moreover, it's jarring: I'm someone who looks because it informs my RP and interaction with you.  I look all the time, and bristle when someone will take a blank look as some sort of ogle.  I'd be furious if a raider took a look as an invitation to kill when, in the scene, my character is looking at them.

I honestly hope that there aren't very many that do the 'look-at-me-I-kill-you' thing.  Fortunately, every raid I've had has not had someone on the other end like that.

 

[Fujikoma]

Honestly, the AoD hires newbs and promotes faster than the Byn, so no, I don't trust them.

[Bushranger]

Soldiers chasing down and capturing raiders is an awesome adventure for the AoD. It happens so infrequently (PC-wise) that when it does occur they're all excited and eager to have some fun that they race out and do everything they can to catch these raiders and have their fun even if this one raider only stole a couple sacks of salt from this one independent salter.

Because the AoD react so swiftly and so eagerly to even minor raids it causes PC raiders to think twice about the dangers of raiding, come up with over-the top demands to try and maintain their anonymity and makes PC raiding rare. It's a vicious circle.

Be the change. Raid with abandon. Don't chase raiders!

[BadSkeelz]

I never chased a raider because they're probably twinks, magickers, or both. Also I didn't have hunt, ride, or direction sense.

[CodeMaster]

(Or other things, e.g., hiding a gem around your neck in the tdesc but that being conveniently 'overlooked'.)

I've done this before by accident.  I meant no malice

Random thought: it might be nice if closing a cloak hid things that were worn around your throat.  Even better, if you could close scarfs the way you can close cloaks, leaving gem-discovery up to a diceroll on peek.

[Asmoth]

(Or other things, e.g., hiding a gem around your neck in the tdesc but that being conveniently 'overlooked'.)

I've done this before by accident.  I meant no malice

Random thought: it might be nice if closing a cloak hid things that were worn around your throat.  Even better, if you could close scarfs the way you can close cloaks, leaving gem-discovery up to a diceroll on peek.

Yeah I've long thought there should be a way to hide the gem.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like being able to tell who's a magicker. If we couldn't it would cut back on the fear and hate by a substantial amount.

[Alesan]

I like being able to tell who's a magicker. If we couldn't it would cut back on the fear and hate by a substantial amount.

I always thought gemmed mages should be punished for trying to hide their gem.

[Asmoth]

I like being able to tell who's a magicker. If we couldn't it would cut back on the fear and hate by a substantial amount.

I always thought gemmed mages should be punished for trying to hide their gem.

If there was a way to do it, they should be.  But as of right now, there isn't.

[manipura]

The tricky thing with having your tdesc state something is that not everyone thoroughly reads descriptions, they just sort of skim.  So they aren't necessarily disregarding the fact that "This woman currently has a cloth scarf looped and twisted around her neck, obscuring any jewelry worn beneath it." they just aren't noticing it.  Or they're reacting to your equipment list before reading your description.  Like Codemaster said, more often than not I don't think it's malicious, just a mistake that's hard to backpedal from.

I love tdesc and make use of it all the time and I've had some very obvious things in it that have apparently gone unnoticed by people until it's pointed out to them.  Then they 'look person' again and it's sort of an awkward situation for a couple minutes while things are figured out.

The idea of a closed cloak hiding what's worn about your throat makes sense.  And closeable scarves is an interesting idea.

[Fujikoma]

When my breed got his neck near broken by a mul, he'd looked at the mul previously, but he and the mul had a friendly chat for a bit and it was only when he cracked a joke about beetles that suddenly the mul flew into a rage. Then tap-danced around my breed's unconscious body, slamming his mace into the salt near his head.

When my breed awoke and drug his ass back to town, his salting companion had already reported the raid to the militia, my breed was just grateful to be alive, I was such a newb. So anyway, pass out, no, private shakes his wounded-ass neck awake and demands details, I tried every excuse, hood up, facewrap, vicious bludgeoning... finally she started threatening him with bandages and I freaked. So, newb reaction, dropped a couple more details, didn't think they were that significant. Just go away and leave me be, Private. "Oh, we know just who that is! Carry on." "Fuuuuuuck."

[Inks]

My last raider told the people he was raiding his name. 

[Delirium]

I like being able to tell who's a magicker. If we couldn't it would cut back on the fear and hate by a substantial amount.

I always thought gemmed mages should be punished for trying to hide their gem.

They should be and are, if a templar or a soldier catches them doing it.

[Tisiphone]

The gem specifically mentions in its description that it's designed to be hard to hide with neckwear like a scarf. So no, I don't feel bad at all about noticing it even when you've tdesc'ed that it's hidden.

[nauta]

Since my 'gem' example shifted us off-topic, two comments on it. 

First, I tossed it out as a hypothetical -- so don't worry, CodeMaster, it wasn't you!  I've never had it happen in-game, although I've had similar things happen in-game.

Second, here are Nauta's tips on tdesc usage.

1. The secret tdesc.  I like making my mdesc end perfectly on a line, so then I can add a tdesc if I like that will blend perfectly in with my mdesc to the casual observer.

2. The in-your-face tdesc.  You can add a blank line as the first line of the tdesc (or split your tdesc with a blank line).  I like to think our eyes are drawn more to things after the blank line, so REALLY important things can be highlighted by adding a blank line first.

3. Emote.  I recognize that a lot of people (myself included) don't re-look, especially if they know someone well.  So emote that aspect of your tdesc if it's important enough.

4. Keep a notepad filled with tdescs.  I have a notepad filled with tdescs, so I don't have to retype them out when I change something small, e.g., I can keep my awesome haircut (cut-and-paste) then tack on a line about a black-and-blue eye, or whatever.

5. Don't power tdesc.  The code here might allow us to get away with some things, but try to be realistic with your expectations -- we're not all super ninja, and so even if you tdesc being all wrapped up, one or two of your wrappings might slip down, or whatever.  Absent some code solution to this -- based on dice rolls and skill checks -- there's going to be mutual trust between the masked and the looker here to both play realistically.

All that said, absent a coded solution, I still prefer the tdesc/emote-being-wrapped-up route towards anonymity/masking yourself over the you-look-I-kill-you route, for a lot of reasons -- but I understand the frustrations when someone by accident or on purpose overlooks your attempt at anonymity/masking yourself.

[Malken]

There should be a skill where you can instantly turn yourself into a corpse (pretending you're dead) - that idea came from witnessing my last mudsexing partner