Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities

[wizturbo]

Templars could even be paid to assign gemmed to a noble house, on a renewable contract. This would create an arms race for nobles to have the best mage working for them who can support their goals. (probably 1 per house but it would be in addition to the aide cap). It would also create magickal rivalries between house mages if done properly, which it turn would create work for pc assassins and thugs perhaps.

I really like the direction of this.  Nobles are highly educated (by Allanaki standards) and should realize more than the common populace that Gemmed are not nearly the threat to the city that the stupid commoner population might believe.  House Borsail hates magick, and they might have political allies who follow their lead (or pretend to follow their lead to get goodies from Borsail), but I see no reason why ~50% of the noble population couldn't have the Oashi opinion on magick.  

Magick is real.  Magick is incredibly useful.  Magick is the whole reason the Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and he permits Gemmed to live in the city... So why would everyone but House Oash hate them?  House Oash (an Upper Tier House) understands magick's value...but the rest of the Houses are too stupid to understand it?!    To me, it just seems like some staffers arbitrary decided that's how the world should be, with no documented reason, and that's why it is what it is today.

I think the biggest offender of all is House Tor not having war mages anymore.  Allanak has these wildly powerful and advantageous weapons at their disposal, and House Tor, the most militant house in the city, that's all about tactics and glorious victory...doesn't want to have anything to do with them?!?!   HUH?  That makes no sense whatsoever, unless House Tor is sucking on Borsail's teet and giving up War Mages was the price they had to pay for that.

Keep in mind, I'm in no way advocating that noble House's flaunt their adoption of magick.  Even House Oash doesn't flaunt this.  But having behind the scenes, or subdued gemmed employee roles seems entirely logical to me.

[Armaddict]

Problem is that the role of nobility, in terms of the city, is often as a liaison between the populace and the templarate.  Templars are feared for their magick just as much as a gemmed is.  For nobility to embrace the thing that the common people are afraid of is a reversal of their role in the city (which is actually in the documentation for 'why templars need nobles').

In terms of keeping it secret, such happens.  However, keeping it secret is hard when they wear a gem.  If they do not wear a gem, it makes you potentially at odds with the templarate for having one that is not regulated and controlled.  If they do wear a gem, you can't exactly keep your use of magick away from the populace that you work with.

Edited to add:  Also.  Let's work on getting -mundanes- back into military clans before we suggest that they should be bodyguards again.

[wizturbo]

The entire game is catering to Mundanes already.  Mundanes are already in military clans, and military clans are by far the most populated clans in the entire game.

I don't see why everyone (and honestly, I don't think its everyone, I think its the vocal minority that posts on the GDB that tends to dislike magick) is opposed to adding some fucking roles for people who enjoy playing magickers.

[Armaddict]

The entire game is catering to Mundanes already.  Mundanes are already in military clans, and military clans are by far the most populated clans in the entire game.

I don't see why everyone (and honestly, I don't think its everyone, I think its the vocal minority that posts on the GDB that tends to dislike magick) is opposed to adding some fucking roles for people who enjoy playing magickers.

There are 3 military clans.  Three.

And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

[Taven]

Magick is real.  Magick is incredibly useful.  Magick is the whole reason the Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and he permits Gemmed to live in the city... So why would everyone but House Oash hate them?  House Oash (an Upper Tier House) understands magick's value...but the rest of the Houses are too stupid to understand it?!    To me, it just seems like some staffers arbitrary decided that's how the world should be, with no documented reason, and that's why it is what it is today.

Magick does also have a habit of making things go horribly wrong sometimes, too. Admittedly, 'Nak moved the giant, smoking, hulking, lava-spewing reminder of one of the last big times that things went horribly astray... But PCs may have been told by their parents of when everyone was starving, hungry, and it was all the gemmed's fault. True, the nobility would have been less affected, but I'm sure they had to deal with some of the affects. Like, say, Trader's Inn getting burned down. I imagine that the nobility is largely encouraged away from it by the templars, as well, who likely want to keep the power to themselves (and keep nobles from meddling in things).

Nobles are highly educated (by Allanaki standards) and should realize more than the common populace that Gemmed are not nearly the threat to the city that the stupid commoner population might believe.  House Borsail hates magick, and they might have political allies who follow their lead (or pretend to follow their lead to get goodies from Borsail), but I see no reason why ~50% of the noble population couldn't have the Oashi opinion on magick.

I'm sure nobles can and do occasionally hire gemmed on the side, but they likely want to keep it low key. I don't think that's a bad thing. If gemmed are so desirable that the majority or even a good portion of noble houses hire them... Then that's going to significantly change the social structure. The moment gemmed don a House cloak, their status dramatically changes. They're not just some social pyrriah to be feared and hated... They're bearing the emblem of a noble house. They're important.

Commoners don't like feeling magickers are important. They like burning shit down when that happens. Namely, like the riots that assaulted the gemmer temples, as a prime example.

I think the biggest offender of all is House Tor not having war mages anymore.  Allanak has these wildly powerful and advantageous weapons at their disposal, and House Tor, the most militant house in the city, that's all about tactics and glorious victory...doesn't want to have anything to do with them?!?!   HUH?  That makes no sense whatsoever, unless House Tor is sucking on Borsail's teet and giving up War Mages was the price they had to pay for that.

I haven't been playing long enough to know about a time when Tor did have warmages, so keep that in mind.

But if I was a templar, I sure as hell wouldn't let the most militarily efficient noble house with soldiers also have deadly magick potential. That's ground for a coup.

From the perspective of a Tor, they're trained to dislike and hate magick too. Think about your traditional fantasy setting, and the division between your standard fighter and mage. The fighter wants to rely on himself, things he understands. He doesn't trust in that strange finger-wiggling nonsense. Building on that for our setting, Tor trains good soldiers, making them the best of the best. Magickers are a different catagory entirely; they focus on the arcane, Tor focuses on the martial.

[BadSkeelz]

Magick does also have a habit of making things go horribly wrong sometimes, too. Admittedly, 'Nak moved the giant, smoking, hulking, lava-spewing reminder of one of the last big times that things went horribly astray...

That was Magick working as intended.

It sucked from a mundane action point of view, but working as intended. Gerderm magick stealing mundane thunder and turning a wholesome bloodbath into something strange and weird.

Since I needed to edit this anyway, it wasn't even the volcano that screwed things up. Mass disarm spells and fire seeds and other shenanigans had already happened.

[BadSkeelz]

A noble who publicly hates magickers but nevertheless uses them on the sly is, of course, entirely in the realm of possibility.

[wizturbo]

I haven't been playing long enough to know about a time when Tor did have warmages, so keep that in mind.

But if I was a templar, I sure as hell wouldn't let the most militarily efficient noble house with soldiers also have deadly magick potential. That's ground for a coup.

I was around when House Tor had warmages.  They were a rare role, and the Gemmed who got them were tried and tested individuals.

As for your comment about being grounds for a coup, I'll just say for IC reasons that's not true.  

Military wise, House Tor's Scorpions are only a fraction of a single Legion's strength, and Allanak has multiple legions.  Magickally speaking, using the Gemmed against the Templarate in a coup is...well, lets just say not a realistic threat.

[Taven]

The entire game is catering to Mundanes already.  Mundanes are already in military clans, and military clans are by far the most populated clans in the entire game.

I don't see why everyone (and honestly, I don't think its everyone, I think its the vocal minority that posts on the GDB that tends to dislike magick) is opposed to adding some fucking roles for people who enjoy playing magickers.

Just for the record, my favorite PC of all time was a magicker. I think playing magickers is awesome. I love magick and learning about magick.

It's just that the gameworld isn't designed to be very magicker friendly, by intent. Allanak's mages are more or less slaves to the templars, who use them to keep power and accomplish their own ends. Oash also wants to keep their noble monopoly on gemmed--They moved through the senate to get rid of the Council of Allanaki Mages. There was a period when a Tor noble was hiring a couple gemmed, contractually and on the side, and even that pissed off some Oashi (which was neat conflict, but my point is that Oash wants to keep their power). Most nobles probably don't know much about magick, or want to know much about it. Commoners hate and fear it, and for good reason. The gameworld's perceptions are intentionally designed to ostracize the mage.

Also, we're fairly off topic. Would any staff or moderator be willing to start a thread called "Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities" starting with this post and including relevant ones after? It would be much appreciated. It's a good discussion to have, and it deserves its own thread.

[Taven]

Military wise, House Tor's Scorpions are only a fraction of a single Legion's strength, and Allanak has multiple legions.  Magickally speaking, using the Gemmed against the Templarate in a coup is...well, lets just say not a realistic threat.

Not with just House Tor as-is, for... IC reasons, yes, I agree. Gemmed being used against the state directly is limited by the nature of the reason they're allowed to live. That doesn't mean that they couldn't be used in a round-about way, though. Or that it wouldn't increase the threat of leading to non-sanctioned magicks which might be more dangerous.

Anyways, that point is debatable and hypothetical, but suffice to say that templars probably want information on magick to be limited. They already butt heads enough with Oash as it is, they probably don't want a military clan also getting gemmed.

[wizturbo]

And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

You see, I view it exactly the other way.  

When I started playing this game, magick was feared and distrusted, but not nearly as limited in roles as it is today.  Then over time, OOCly people made the argument "I don't like magick, so we should change the game to accommodate how I want to play" and the setting was slowly inched over towards fear and hatred rather than mere distrust.  My argument is there is no basis for magick being hated as much as it is in Allanak, save the "I don't like magick" crowd, be it players or staff, influencing things in that direction.

[Armaddict]

Not -nearly-?

Back then there was the conclave, which was hard to find and reclusive in their involvement with the rest of the world (and I would not be against this coming back), Tor with it's usually one warmage, which had less to do than oashi mages and....what else are you talking about, exactly?

I was the player of a Tor noble when the warmages were ended, or shortly after.  There was one left.  However, I very specifically remember reading the post that limited it to one because two was causing problems.  So you talking about a time where there was so much more to do, and how it has swung in the opposite direction, is directly referencing the time of the Council of Allanaki Mages, in which case there is a pretty widespread acknowledgement that it got out of hand.  Aside from everyone who wants magick to be the mainstay of the game, in which case it is referenced as a golden era, despite it being only one clan who managed to dominate pretty much every plot that ever rose up.

I came just -barely- after the destruction of first Tuluk by the elementals, so are you referencing pre-antimagick tuluk?

Edited to add:  And to discuss this the second time for the week, the CoAM was not making more roles.  It just signified a sudden mindstate shift as mages became organized that they were tools to be used for every single situation.  I can see how that would be a golden age to mages.  However, it also changed the entire dynamic of the game to one where magick was not fulfilling its place in documentation.  It became 'We have it, so we're going to use it', with no regard for the social ramifications that come from it.  Again, I point to the example of where a thriving clan of Tor soldiers was threatened with being left out of a plot because of the noble's request to not have his soldiers serving as glorified bodyguards for gemmed in a mundane task, i.e. One that could be solved with normal combat, where no magick was 'needed' for the plot.

[Taven]

And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

You see, I view it exactly the other way.  

When I started playing this game, magick was feared and distrusted, but not nearly as limited in roles as it is today.  Then over time, OOCly people made the argument "I don't like magick, so we should change the game to accommodate how I want to play" and the setting was slowly inched over towards fear and hatred rather than mere distrust.  My argument is there is no basis for magick being hated as much as it is in Allanak, save the "I don't like magick" crowd, be it players or staff, influencing things in that direction.

I'm not sure when you started playing.

When I was a fresh-eyed 100% total n00b was about the time the end of the world plots were happening. Samos was in the south, and it was a time when gemmed were everywhere. Around this time on the GDB was a huge kick-back by players, who decided that there was too much magick, and they wanted to be the change. Players voluntarily committed to having their karma locked away by staff, as a show of support for less love for magickers, and more support for mundanes.

I think since then, there's been a larger sensitivity and favoritism to mages getting too much love in the game. You seem to think it's gone too far the way of mundanes, I'm not sure that it has. I view mages as a sort of 'make your own fun' type role. You know ahead of time you're going to be socially ostracized. You can hide what you are, be an unaffiliated gemmer, or work for Oash. If you're an unaffiliated gemmer, there's nothing stopping you from trying to get nobles of other houses to hire you on the side. True, you won't get to wear Tor's cloak... But with when I started as a player and with my experience, I see that as normal and expected.

[Rokal]

And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

You see, I view it exactly the other way.  

When I started playing this game, magick was feared and distrusted, but not nearly as limited in roles as it is today.  Then over time, OOCly people made the argument "I don't like magick, so we should change the game to accommodate how I want to play" and the setting was slowly inched over towards fear and hatred rather than mere distrust.  My argument is there is no basis for magick being hated as much as it is in Allanak, save the "I don't like magick" crowd, be it players or staff, influencing things in that direction.

I'm not sure when you started playing.

When I was a fresh-eyed 100% total n00b was about the time the end of the world plots were happening. Samos was in the south, and it was a time when gemmed were everywhere. Around this time on the GDB was a huge kick-back by players, who decided that there was too much magick, and they wanted to be the change. Players voluntarily committed to having their karma locked away by staff, as a show of support for less love for magickers, and more support for mundanes.

I think since then, there's been a larger sensitivity and favoritism to mages getting too much love in the game. You seem to think it's gone too far the way of mundanes, I'm not sure that it has. I view mages as a sort of 'make your own fun' type role. You know ahead of time you're going to be socially ostracized. You can hide what you are, be an unaffiliated gemmer, or work for Oash. If you're an unaffiliated gemmer, there's nothing stopping you from trying to get nobles of other houses to hire you on the side. True, you won't get to wear Tor's cloak... But with when I started as a player and with my experience, I see that as normal and expected.

I agree with this (bolded part as usuall especially) ,very much this, but to me, part of the fun of playing said mages isn't just the magick, or anything like that. I'm a explorer of lore by nature and hope to learn more about the lore of the world. Be  it mundane things or magick ,but if im ever playing a mage - rouge or otherwise, Im hoping to do what I can to not only bring the magick side to life and potray it well ,but i want to LEARN that lore. I do not know how hard it is to get into such kind of lore and explore those kind of things - i'm just barely past my first year of playing, and my first character saw all kinds of -cool- things. (tuluk staff, you were awesome for putting up with my nubbish ways).

what gets me engrossed in these worlds and the RP isn't just the character, but the lore and the stories of the past. The -journey- of going through that and learning those things, even in character? thats the greatest thing to ever experience in a story - to get so engrossed in something's lore that no matter how story for a single character ends. It wasn't the ending that was the reward. its what built up to it. The inbetween. The small ripples my character have spread into other characters - or the ripples that other characters spread into mine.

mages, gemmed or otherwise have all sorts of possible opportunists if they're capable of making their own fun. But what if they want to make fun for themselves and others? Magick is mysterious and always will be - if I ever play a magicker, I want to include mundanes where I realistcally can. I want to potray the lore as I learn it. I want to make sure those characters that interact with mine.  Mundane, or otherwise, are influnced by it.

Those are make the best stories imo. It doesn't need to be a grand adventure of saving the world. But a small group (or large group!) of people forging their own little role and  postion in a much grander world.

When you can get deeply involved in the lore, and then potray it in your RP... It adds another edge, another dynamic to it.

Lore is central to any RP. Lore is awesome to discover - and my biggest thing i've found difficult on armageddon, is sometimes .. Discovering that lore.

I know in the IC sense. The massess are kept ignorant for various reasons. But . .that doesn't change how I feel about it.

I don't want to see huge elemental plots, or magick plots. But .. I want to see the chances of characters who think "I became a Krathi .. Why me? I didn't want this. I want to find out why me. I want this curse gone.." be able to delve into that, and reach into learning the purpose of their element, or more deeper meanings to magick, if at all possible.  It adds an.. esoteric sense and level of depth to a character that could vary from character to character, but add just another level of depth to each character as they interact. (Even if its kind of a generic plot point, im sure tons have done it, but cliches can be amazing if executed right)

As a whole. I cant' really say i have much experience with magick - I don't think much needs to be changed for rogue mages. Gemmed mages, as stated before, I think the hate and fear part has gone to such extremes that .. its effecting the game, and peoples out of character take on it. I personally feel gemmed should have a bit more opportunity then they do have.

TLDR: I'm just saying that a mage, gemmer or otherwise doesnt need to be just focused on their outright power and such, but touch upon that power in a way that draws an interest for the characters and adds a sense of mystery to the game, especially if said pcs are enable to have their own little mysterious things about them that they discover. i feel a lot of people look at mages and think: "mage powerhouse, they can do this this and this." instead of. "A typical person (usually) in some sort alkward circumstance that they have to live with and adapt to, with little nuances and mystery behind them."

Just focus on that mystery and depth, rather then what they can do on a coded level. Thats what fantasy is about, imo. Even low fantasy.

[Old Kank]

One thing that may be getting lost in all of this is that some of the magick roles that went away were sanctioned magickers embedded in non-magick clans, similar to the Tor war mages.  It wasn't all magick-based supergroups.  I can only think of two clans, pre-2010, that didn't have a MAJOR non-mundane role/character in it at one point or another.  And I'm not talking about a rogue here or there, I'm talking about mages who were openly acknowledged by clan leadership, even if their existence was a secret outside the clan.

That's integral to Zalanthas:  If you don't have magick or psionics at your disposal, someone else is going to come and take everything you hold dear because you can't stop them.

Editing to say:  I think a big shift in this, more than anything, came as leadership of clans was taken away from players.

[Taven]

One thing that may be getting lost in all of this is that some of the magick roles that went away were sanctioned magickers embedded in non-magick clans, similar to the Tor war mages.  It wasn't all magick-based supergroups.  I can only think of two clans, pre-2010, that didn't have a MAJOR non-mundane role/character in it at one point or another.  And I'm not talking about a rogue here or there, I'm talking about mages who were openly acknowledged by clan leadership, even if their existence was a secret outside the clan.

That's integral to Zalanthas:  If you don't have magick or psionics at your disposal, someone else is going to come and take everything you hold dear because you can't stop them.

Editing to say:  I think a big shift in this, more than anything, came as leadership of clans was taken away from players.

I'm curious how you saw the inclusion of magickers in-house, back in the day. Did you felt it led to overuse of magick? Or a lack of discrimination towards mages? Or did it seem fairly balanced, in your opinion?

[Erythil]

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for many clans to have one or two mages, tried and proven, on retainer.  The utility of something like a vivaduan is hard to deny, and it makes sense that their abilities would not be feared to the same extent as those of, say, a drovian.  And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

[BadSkeelz]

And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

Trust me, they're on the list.

[Old Kank]

I'm curious how you saw the inclusion of magickers in-house, back in the day. Did you felt it led to overuse of magick? Or a lack of discrimination towards mages? Or did it seem fairly balanced, in your opinion?

How do I feel about it?  Ehhhhh!

I think it was problematic in terms of balancing clans, and I assume that's why staff nudged things away from that.  If all clans are more or less competing with one another, then the clan that has the best/most mages is going to win.  Clans that mix mages and mundanes are especially brutal.  Armaddict is right on the money when he talks about mundanes becoming bodyguards for mages, and that's a bad situation for a bulk of the game.  But the downside to minimizing mages, in my limited view, is that the game has become very narrow.  And I think that's a bad situation for the whole game.

As far as discrimination, I don't know what to say.  I think people should focus more on their own characters' likes and dislikes, and less on what other people are doing.  Read the docs, and then build the character that you want to play, and let the staff reinforce the environment.  It was frustrating to play a "preserver-hater" back before karma went in, but some people still did it.  It's easier, and frequently more rewarding to be inclusive, and I think that's a huge problem for those that want to discriminate, but that's just human nature.  It's not something we can fix.

[Old Kank]

And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

I hate, hate, hate half-giants.  It's all farts and big dick jokes, and everybody seems to love it.  Get off my damn lawn!

[Lizzie]

I'm curious how you saw the inclusion of magickers in-house, back in the day. Did you felt it led to overuse of magick? Or a lack of discrimination towards mages? Or did it seem fairly balanced, in your opinion?

How do I feel about it?  Ehhhhh!

I think it was problematic in terms of balancing clans, and I assume that's why staff nudged things away from that.  If all clans are more or less competing with one another, then the clan that has the best/most mages is going to win.  Clans that mix mages and mundanes are especially brutal.  Armaddict is right on the money when he talks about mundanes becoming bodyguards for mages, and that's a bad situation for a bulk of the game.  But the downside to minimizing mages, in my limited view, is that the game has become very narrow.  And I think that's a bad situation for the whole game.

As far as discrimination, I don't know what to say.  I think people should focus more on their own characters' likes and dislikes, and less on what other people are doing.  Read the docs, and then build the character that you want to play, and let the staff reinforce the environment.  It was frustrating to play a "preserver-hater" back before karma went in, but some people still did it.  It's easier, and frequently more rewarding to be inclusive, and I think that's a huge problem for those that want to discriminate, but that's just human nature.  It's not something we can fix.

I think it's this perception that created the pull away from mages in clans. It was like everyone (the players) were thinking "oh if I have 6 mages I can beat Tor." instead of "if I have 1 krathi and 1 drovian during peak time and maybe one drovian off-peak, I could help the city win the war against Tuluk."

I notice often, players think in terms of "can I beat this guy" or "can my clan beat that clan" or "can my unit beat the other noble's unit." But you don't see too much of "can I help these other tribes defend and win against the enemy from the other side of the known who are threatening our existence?"

Sadly, there's only virtual enemies to fight against now, and so we're stuck with our characters fighting amongst themselves instead of the greater good. But "back in the day" the greater good was ALWAYS in peril, and I think that's why mages became such a huge asset.

Without a world-wide threat, the magick aspect reverts to "me vs. him" and is no longer "us vs. them." You don't need magicks for that. You just need a well-trained assassin.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I think that magickers are already viewed in a way which was never intended. From my experience over the last couple of years players are far more accepting of them and even treat them as equals. Magickers are to be feared and hated, not to rub elbows with because they can make a neat fireball or <whatever>. While the nobles of the city are more educated I believe that most still believe what has always been known to be true: magickers bring disaster, both personal and world-wide. The Almighty Highlord is the only one that can contain them.

These are not your local Wiccans, Shamans, Druids, X-Men, or Harry Potter-like Wizards. Every time they use magick (or maybe even take a breath), something bad probably happens. A puppy somewhere is kicked. A baby is miscarried. Some noble falls down the stairs. Your mother stubs her toe. A Silt-Horror is born. A half-elf is made. ...you get the idea.

Oash is unique in their perspective of magick for some very old IC reasons which, considering all things, makes perfect sense. Some other noble houses might dabble on occasion but, as far as I know, never in a large capacity (if at all). Just because someone is educated doesn't mean that they are correct, people have taught ridiculous ideas to scholars many times over. Besides, who says that magickers don't really cause all the bad in the world?

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Superstitions

[Beethoven]

I am all for following the docs and making my characters realistic products of their background, but remember that if exceptions to the rule did not exist, no Zalanthan would ever pursue sorcery.

I think it's great that people are dedicated to maintaining the culture and enforcing the docs with their own PCs, but there are realistic so-called "exceptions" that I would not qualify as speshul snowflakism. Yes, if somebody's being all friendly with magickers in public and acting like there's nothing wrong with it and they act all surprised when anyone gives them shit for it, that's pretty borderline, but I don't think that hiring a couple of them under the table falls into the same category. Some people are power-hungry enough to tolerate anything or anybody to achieve their ends. Not every PC should be willing to use the gemmed to take on a task, by a longshot, but if your PC is a hardline "victory at all costs" sort I don't see a problem with them using shady, forbidden methods like employing the gemmed...or maybe even worse.

Some people don't care about the destruction of the world or the danger of magick. They just want to get ahead.

[Majikal]

Eh, I've had gemmed get on the payroll with nearly every noble house in the game. Of course I was never codedly clanned except in one instance, but I was doing work, violent work, shady underhanded work, making jobs easier, or possible for their crews. I think allowing mages in clans openly would take some social restructuring and a documentation overhaul. Personally I think if you feel like gemmed don't have enough roles or opportunities you just aren't creative or driven enough.

Also, some people think the world is too carebear towards gemmed now? How do you expect they'll be treated once they're in a Salarri cloak, A Tor cloak. Clans have some pretty serious perks.

[Delirium]

Some people don't care about the destruction of the world or the danger of magick. They just want to get ahead.

The problem is when everyone plays like that, "plays to win". You can't win. You just don't "win" a game like Armageddon. You tell a story, and then you die (or store).

Having victories as part of the story is great and nobody likes to be depressed and beaten down all the time in the game, but it's so refreshing when someone is obviously playing to tell a story rather than to try and "win" the weird socio-political game of Armageddon character power level. What do you win, anyway? Like, really, what do you win?