Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.  I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Does the T-slur just go unchallenged on these boards? Keep in mind this is offensiveness equivalent to calling a gay man Faggot or a black man the N-slur.

[Nyr]

It doesn't go unchallenged, but it would have to be reported to moderators (using the report to moderator button).  I did not see the post in question and I imagine other moderators did not, either.  After you brought it up I found it and moderated it, so in the future, just report the post.

[LauraMars]

yeah, this thread has grown fast. it's hard to keep up. if you notice something offensive or against the rules, please report to moderator.

[Beethoven]

Eh.  I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.

If there are no secondary sex characteristics other than breasts and facial hair or lack thereof, and men and women dress in exactly the same way (men wear dresses with the same frequency as women do, etc.) and there are no culturally or biological behavioral cues that can reveal a person's gender, how would you EVER tell a flat-chested woman from a clean-shaven man? Should people always be asking everyone who doesn't have visible breasts, a bulge, or a prominent Adam's apple if they're a guy or a girl? I've had PCs accepted who were described as being "androgynous" in their sdescs, so I thought that was a thing, but apparently everyone in this world is equally androgynous.

[Desertman]

Eh.  I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.

If there are no secondary sex characteristics other than breasts and facial hair or lack thereof, and men and women dress in exactly the same way (men wear dresses with the exact same frequency as women do, etc.) and there are no culturally or biological behavioral cues that can reveal a person's gender, how would you EVER tell a flat-chested woman from a clean-shaven man? Should people always be asking everyone who doesn't have visible breasts, a bulge, or a prominent Adam's apple if they're a guy or a girl? I've had PCs accepted who were described as being "androgynous" in their sdescs, so I thought that was a thing, but apparently everyone in this world is equally androgynous.

First, facial hair isn't only for men. I've seen women with facial hair. I had one I actually named Rosey Guts in a crew of mine many years ago. She had a fine moustache as I recall. (Awesomely played too.)

The issue you are running into here is assuming everyone rides the center line. Everyone CAN be equally androgynous, but not everyone is.

What is being stated is there is a "median value" across the board for "everything".

There are just as many androgynous people as there are "large-breasted, wide-hipped woman" and there are just as many of those as there are "hulking, flat-chested women", and there are just as many of those as there are "soft-skinned, wide-hipped men".

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.  I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.

If there are no secondary sex characteristics other than breasts and facial hair or lack thereof,

So that is not an assertion of mine.

and men and women dress in exactly the same way (men wear dresses with the same frequency as women do, etc.)

Also not an assertion of mine.

and there are no culturally or biological behavioral cues that can reveal a person's gender, how would you EVER tell a flat-chested woman from a clean-shaven man?

Stubble?  Voice?  Hips?  Biologically, we're pretty good and picking up on physical subtleties.

Should people always be asking everyone who doesn't have visible breasts, a bulge, or a prominent Adam's apple if they're a guy or a girl? I've had PCs accepted who were described as being "androgynous" in their sdescs, so I thought that was a thing, but apparently everyone in this world is equally androgynous.

Again, not an assertion of mine.

[flurry]

They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.

That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.

[Beethoven]

I'm not arguing that women with facial hair wouldn't exist. Lots of unusual characteristics exist IRL, and often even more so on Zalanthas. I mean, you mentioned mutant men with boobs, so that could be a thing that exists, too. Would a woman with facial hair be considered out-of-the-ordinary, or normal? Do women have to shave their faces just like men do, or do only some men have to shave their faces, along with some men, or...I mean, you've been pretty clear on your position that the ONLY difference between Zalanthan men and Zalanthan women is the wang and the vag. Occasionally you will concede that women also have breasts, so I'm wondering about whether you also think it's normal for women to have facial hair IC, or if that would be as weird as the guy with boobs. I haven't figured that out yet.

I get the point you're making about "just as many androgynous people" or whatever, but the point I'm making is that the word "androgynous" itself would be utterly meaningless in a world where everyone looks exactly the same except for some people have boobs.


OK, MM, I apologize. I'm getting your position mixed up with Dman's. He takes a pretty hardline stance.

[Desertman]

They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.

That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.

The code indicates a lot of things that aren't necessarily in line with the way the world actually works.

I think we have "feminine/masculine voices" in game for ease of playability, but I think it would be absolutely fine for a female PC to be made with a "manly voice" coded to them if they wanted to play that specific role.....because that role would be just as common in the population as a "feminine voiced" female.

We have to set the default somewhere. They set it codedly at what most people will want to play.

[LauraMars]

so as much as this thread is making me want to reread Ancillary Justice, I'm not sure what it truly has to do with OP's original question.

Since it's been a couple of years, here's LoD's quote on the staff's policy against no sexism yet again.

The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

-LoD

Could we perhaps discuss the idea of transexuals on Zalanthas a little more directly?

I think they exist, just like homosexuals exist.  And, like homosexual behavior, I'd imagine it isn't seen as deviant, nor would a transexual person have a lesser social status. It's probably rarer than...not transexuals (I don't know the term for that, sorry), just like it is in real life.  It's hard for the majority of us to put ourselves in that mindset, since most of us present and identify as the sex we were born with.  Which is probably why it's difficult for us to discuss, and also why it's rarely played out in game.

I like the idea of playing that sort of character.  I think as long as it was done in a non-immersion breaking, low-tech, Zalanthan way, I don't think it would be out of place or breaking the theme of the game at all.

[Desertman]

We established they absolutely exist.

I think we have moved on to discussing what ways would be acceptable for them to "express" their transexuality without trying to conform to or go against RL gender roles and expectations as a default.

If transsexuals go against them or try to conform to them as a default in game, it means they are stating in game that those gender roles and expectations exist for them to conform to or go against as a rule....when they don't.

[Beethoven]

It kind of feels like this gender roles thing is a hurdle that we have to get past to address the question properly.

[Desertman]

I'm not arguing that women with facial hair wouldn't exist. Lots of unusual characteristics exist IRL, and often even more so on Zalanthas. I mean, you mentioned mutant men with boobs, so that could be a thing that exists, too. Would a woman with facial hair be considered out-of-the-ordinary, or normal? Do women have to shave their faces just like men do, or do only some men have to shave their faces, along with some men, or...I mean, you've been pretty clear on your position that the ONLY difference between Zalanthan men and Zalanthan women is the wang and the vag. Occasionally you will concede that women also have breasts, so I'm wondering about whether you also think it's normal for women to have facial hair IC, or if that would be as weird as the guy with boobs. I haven't figured that out yet.

I get the point you're making about "just as many androgynous people" or whatever, but the point I'm making is that the word "androgynous" itself would be utterly meaningless in a world where everyone looks exactly the same except for some people have boobs.


OK, MM, I apologize. I'm getting your position mixed up with Dman's. He takes a pretty hardline stance.

There are just as many women who can grow facial hair if they choose as there are men who can't grow facial hair even if they want to. Neither would be considered an abnormality or a special circumstance/minority to be treated as such.

[whitt]

I think there is a big gap in the difference between genders being equal for all physical capabilities and there being no difference in how those gender are treated.  

This is sexism (belief certain genders should fall into certain societal norms) vs chauvinism (believe one gender is superior to the other).

IMHO, chauvanism should not exist is Zalanthis, but there are certain roles for which one gender is simply going to be selected over the other by pure biology.

For example.  In this post-apocalyptic world, men (far as I know) still do not bear children.  If the biological override to sustain the populace is gone, that's one thing.  If it is not, then by that very fact men and women are not equal.  You don't need a bunch of men to sustain the population.  Men aren't going to be carrying children to term.  Men aren't going to die as a result of the birthing process.  Men can't feed the child after it is born.  In short, men are far more disposable than women.  You just don't need them past that one moment in time.

So... who do you send out on the dangerous tasks?  The disposable ones.  Who do you keep around (to a point)?  The ones that can replace all those disposable minions.

Men would be kept around if they were healthy and strong, eg able to better produce offspring that are likewise "useful".
Women would be kept around if they were healthy and strong and able to bear children that were healthy and strong.

Everyone else (and here's your true equality) would be disposable.  

You're a weak, sickly female?  You're a drag on your society.  Good bye.
You're a weak, sickly male?  You're a drag on your society.  Good bye.
You're a strong, healthy male, do your duty then get out there and do those dangerous tasks that are likely to get someone dead.  Thanks for helping.
You're a strong, healthy female?  Don't want to bear children?  Ok, you're in the same boat as the strong healthy men.  Eg, you're disposable.  Get into the grinder.
You're a strong, healthy male that doesn't want to behave like a strong, healthy male?  Well you're more of a drag that the weak, sickly guy.  Who's gonna feed you?  Get out.
You're a strong, healthy female?  You're able to bear strong healthy children?  You're top of the food chain... Until there's too many children.  Then you're disposable.  Get into the grinder.

So does it make sense for a woman to present as "masculine" sure does.  Says, I'm not here to bear children.  I'm here to break shit and get stuff done.
Does it make sense for a man to present as "feminine"?  Much less so.  That says, I'm really confused about what makes me valuable to society.

Trying to force complete gender invisibility?  Why not replace every he and she, his and her, with "they" and "their", because there is no need for gender to be described at all.

So... to the OP, Transsexuals on Zalanthas.  I can completely buy that there would be men that wish they could bear children and women that wish they could impregnate other women.  These are the only differences between the genders that matter.  Not sure how that could play out, beyond trying to find a way to fill that role with the equipment they have.  

[flurry]

They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.

That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.

The code indicates a lot of things that aren't necessarily in line with the way the world actually works.

I think we have "feminine voices" in game for ease of playability, but I think it would be absolutely fine for a female PC to be made with a "manly voice" coded to them if they wanted to play that specific role.....because that role would be just as common in the population as a "feminine voiced" female.

We have to set the default somewhere. They set it codedly at what most people will want to play.

As far as I know, the code never suggests that a voice is "feminine" or "manly." It says "female" or "male." This indicates that there is generally a difference between male voices and female voices.

In any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.  

[Beethoven]

I'm not arguing that women with facial hair wouldn't exist. Lots of unusual characteristics exist IRL, and often even more so on Zalanthas. I mean, you mentioned mutant men with boobs, so that could be a thing that exists, too. Would a woman with facial hair be considered out-of-the-ordinary, or normal? Do women have to shave their faces just like men do, or do only some men have to shave their faces, along with some men, or...I mean, you've been pretty clear on your position that the ONLY difference between Zalanthan men and Zalanthan women is the wang and the vag. Occasionally you will concede that women also have breasts, so I'm wondering about whether you also think it's normal for women to have facial hair IC, or if that would be as weird as the guy with boobs. I haven't figured that out yet.

I get the point you're making about "just as many androgynous people" or whatever, but the point I'm making is that the word "androgynous" itself would be utterly meaningless in a world where everyone looks exactly the same except for some people have boobs.


OK, MM, I apologize. I'm getting your position mixed up with Dman's. He takes a pretty hardline stance.

There are just as many women who can grow facial hair if they choose as there are men who can't grow facial hair even if they want to. Neither would be considered an abnormality or a special circumstance/minority to be treated as such.

So, would you agree that it should actually be impossible to tell a flat-chested woman from a man without a prominent Adam's apple IG? (I mean, assuming women don't have Adam's apples as well, which is something I probably shouldn't assume, given your stance on these things.)

[LauraMars]

In any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.  

Absolutely this.  Nobody should feel pressured to take Desertman's interpretation of the docs as gospel, just because he's being very vocal about it.  This is a storytelling game in which multiple opinions and interpretations of the game world are valid.  The no sexism rule is not an old testament commandment to always roll up an androgynous character.  It's just a no sexism rule.

[Desertman]

They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.

That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.

The code indicates a lot of things that aren't necessarily in line with the way the world actually works.

I think we have "feminine voices" in game for ease of playability, but I think it would be absolutely fine for a female PC to be made with a "manly voice" coded to them if they wanted to play that specific role.....because that role would be just as common in the population as a "feminine voiced" female.

We have to set the default somewhere. They set it codedly at what most people will want to play.

As far as I know, the code never suggests that a voice is "feminine" or "manly." It says "female" or "male." This indicates that there is generally a difference between male voices and female voices.

In any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.  

Then change the words in my original post from "feminine" and "manly" to "female" and "male" and give it another read. That's what I meant anyways.

[Desertman]

In any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.  

Absolutely this.  Nobody should feel pressured to take Desertman's interpretation of the docs as gospel, just because he's being very vocal about it.  This is a storytelling game in which multiple opinions and interpretations of the game world are valid.  The no sexism rule is not an old testament commandment to always roll up an androgynous character.  It's just a no sexism rule.

I never said that. In fact I actually said there are just as many androgynous people as there are "feminine" and "masculine" people, so people should write up whatever they want.

There is a median baseline of "equality" across the board with nobody being more traditionally "masculine" or "feminine" than anyone else.

[Desertman]

Basically you can't treat anyone as "the odd man out", because nobody is the "odd man out" when it comes to what is considered traditionally masculine or feminine.

[Beethoven]

I just feel like if Dman's rule were gospel, then no one should put "man" in their sdesc or mdesc unless they have a huge bulge, because no one would be able to tell for sure, and no one should put "woman" unless they have prominent breasts. Because noticeable breasts or a bulging crotch would literally be the only way to discern the genders, and that seems wrong to me. That does not seem like the intention of the imms when they put in a rule to protect people who want to play whatever gender they want in whatever role they want. That is just...boring.

Anyway, back to transgendered stuff. I really enjoy the creativity of the OP, especially the tribal stuff, and I think the OP coming up with a tribal role call based around some of those ideas would be pretty sweet.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As Laura says, there is no sexism. Sexism is the inequality of the sexes. There is none of that whatsoever.

All of this other shit suggested in this thread is basically bs. Women are women, and men are men. Wearing obviously female clothing as a man would be odd. Wearing a dick-like  cod piece as a woman would be odd. Not wrong, not bad, not soft, not hard. Just odd. So yes, a man who wanted to be a woman could do that, and it would never be considered by civilized Zalanthans as more than than odd. Your skirt wearing, powdered female-man could then go on to lead the Arm to glory untold.

That's pretty much the long and short of it.

[whitt]

As Laura says, there is no sexism. Sexism is the inequality of the sexes. There is none of that whatsoever.

That's chauvanism. 

Sexism is believing that men should carry all the heavy things and fight all the wars while women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

[Desertman]

I just feel like if Dman's rule were gospel, then no one should put "man" in their sdesc or mdesc unless they have a huge bulge, because no one would be able to tell for sure, and no one should put "woman" unless they have prominent breasts. Because noticeable breasts or a bulging crotch would literally be the only way to discern the genders, and that seems wrong to me. That does not seem like the intention of the imms when they put in a rule to protect people who want to play whatever gender they want in whatever role they want. That is just...boring.

Anyway, back to transgendered stuff. I really enjoy the creativity of the OP, especially the tribal stuff, and I think the OP coming up with a tribal role call based around some of those ideas would be pretty sweet.

My only point is that the genders exist in a way in game....equally across the board....that you can play anything you want in any mix/match/concoction you can come up with and you will/should be treated "normal" (not odd), because there are no expectations or traditional values associated with gender equality, identity, or characteristics beyond the bare bones fundamentals of sexual biology.

I'm not trying to make you fit a mold. I'm trying to tell you there is no mold.

*Neo Voice - There is no mold.*

(I agree that can seem a little boring until you realize that it lets you play really masculine men and really feminine women if you want to....and most people sort of do to some extent anyways. This rarely actually affects gameplay from what I have found.)