Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[EvilRoeSlade]

So this is something I'm personally interested in and haven't yet seen represented in the game or the documentation. Then again, I've only recently come back from my retirement. Where are all the transsexuals of Zalanthas?

In before someone points out that the tech/knowledge doesn't exist. I would assume that it does. Since ancient times people have been using herbs and the glands of animals to alter their hormone levels, or consuming the crystalized urine of teenage girls, pregnant women, and pregnant mares for estrogen. So the means to alter one's secondary sexual characteristics is probably there, whether from spice, herbs, animal parts, or teenager pee, and there will be those who seek it out. It might not be as effective as modern day drugs, and nothing short of magick is going to alter your junk, but a little makeup and confidence can probably take you the rest of the way.

What about transsexuals in society though? Are there people who value them as high-class escorts? Tribes that revere their duality? Has anyone played one or role-played with one? I want details and lurid speculation!

[Erythil]

I've seen a couple people over the years play out-and-out hermaphrodites, though that's obviously different from a transexual.

Since you don't have modern medicine or any kind of accessible transmogrification magic you can't really 'transition' so the 'trans' in 'transexual' doesn't really work.  I would be very interested in reading about ancient sex transition techniques that you claim existed, but I'm very dubious about their veracity.

I assume cross-dressers exist, and men living as women, and also women living as men.  It's not out of theme.  It's just probably that players haven't been enthused about this concept.

[Desertman]

I'm no expert, but aren't transexuals individuals who are one gender, but feel as though they are psychologically another gender and lend themselves more towards the characteristics of that gender?

If all males and females are physically on the same playing field, and there are no gender stereotypes (regardless of what the playerbase plays because they are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population and the exception) then what would they "relate to"?

If males and females have no gender role stereotypes, then how would we even "know" they were transexuals to begin with?

Is it a matter of, "I feel like a woman because I feel like I should have a vagina for some reason."?

It can't be, "I feel like a woman because I have always just felt more girly and feminine and more like I should be woman-like.".

It can't be number two because men and women don't fit gender roles in this game. They don't exist.

Masculine and feminine are fundamentally only related to "having a vagina" or "having a penis".

So while there might be transexuals...I don't think they would fit the real world connotations we usually associate transexuals with.

Men trying to "act more feminine" because they believe they are women.

or

Women trying to be more 'butch" because they believe they are men.

In Zalanthas, women act no different from men, and men no differently from women on the "gender role" and "stereotypical gender qualities" playing field.

The only difference is either a vag or a tandu sausage, and that's it.

So I think there might be transexuals on Zalanthas, you would just never know unless they came out and said, "Hey man, you know, I feel like I should have a dick, and I don't know why.". Because really, there would be zero other indicators to even go off of.  

(In Zalanthas things like dresses, skirts, pants, etc...etc...wouldn't be gender specific. Men would wear dresses and heels all day and it would be normal, even if the playerbase doesn't always play it that way.)

[Beethoven]

I don't know, I have thought about it and since we are told that there are no differences between the sexes except for the physical (and quite a few of the physical differences are not present either!) and that what we would think of as classical "femininity" and "masculinity" would not be associated with any particular sex, I would not think that transgender people would be such a "thing" on Zalanthas. Yes, I know that being transgendered is biological, and biological sex exists on Zalanthas, but what does it mean to have always "felt like a girl" on Zalanthas, when the sexes are almost identical? Maybe people who like to dress in clothing that is traditionally worn by the opposite sex, sure, although I'm not sure that would be seen as all that strange, either. Maybe some people would like to stuff their pants or their shirt, but it's just...weird to me to think about being transgendered in a world where gender identity means so little.

HOWEVER, we're also told that a big reason that we have total gender equality on Zalanthas is so that female players feel comfortable playing whatever role they want to play, and don't feel bogged down by RL sexism, which is another driving factor behind the no-homophobia rule, as well. So, while I am not staff, I have a suspicion that staff would want transgendered people to feel comfortable as well.

[Beethoven]

Yeah, Dman, I played a skirt-wearing man once and I tried to play it off as normal, but no one treated it that way! Everyone looked at him like a complete freak. It really wasn't my intention to play him as a "cross-dresser." It was just his fashion choice.

[Desertman]

Yeah, Dman, I played a dress-wearing man once and I tried to play it off as normal, but no one treated it that way! Everyone looked at him like a complete freak.

I remember him. He was awesome and hilarious.

Keep in mind what the playerbase does doesn't matter in terms of the lore most of the time. The PC's in game are .000001% of the population. Them calling out your dude in drag was the exception and arguably the odd behavior. (But you know that. I'm just stating it.)

[Quell]

I assume cross-dressers exist, and men living as women, and also women living as men.  It's not out of theme.  It's just probably that players haven't been enthused about this concept.

You see crossdressing every once in a while, though it seems less common now than it used to be. As for the actual hormone adjustments, I think most people wouldn't have thought of  using natural means for it.

[Beethoven]

This conversation makes me want to play a "cross-dresser" in that vein again.

[TheWanderer]

i wear skirts so it's easier for me to grab my dick when i walk into the gaj.

pst me family role, beet

[EvilRoeSlade]

Is it a matter of, "I feel like a woman because I feel like I should have a vagina for some reason."?

Pretty much

(In Zalanthas things like dresses, skirts, pants, etc...etc...wouldn't be gender specific. Men would wear dresses and heels all day and it would be normal, even if the playerbase doesn't always play it that way.)

The playerbase -never- plays it that way and I don't buy that they should. Even if the sexes are equal it doesn't mean there aren't cultural distinctions between them. Since no one's whipping out their junk and showing it off (usually), you need indicators to tell people whether you're a man or a woman so that they can pursue or ignore you appropriate. Transsexuals generally want the opposite indicators.

[Desertman]

I don't think they would exist only because gender roles don't exist nor do the concepts of "masculine" and "feminine".

You can't, "feel like a girl".

You can, "feel like I should have a vagina".

Girls and Boys in Zalanthas are exactly the same with the exception of what's in the crotch. Outside of that, there are no differences. They think the same way. They perform the same way. They even look the same way minus breasts (and not always) and crotch-things.

Being a transexual in Zalanthas would just mean you feel like your crotch should be different, since psychologically you are ALREADY the same in every way.

[Desertman]

Is it a matter of, "I feel like a woman because I feel like I should have a vagina for some reason."?

Pretty much

(In Zalanthas things like dresses, skirts, pants, etc...etc...wouldn't be gender specific. Men would wear dresses and heels all day and it would be normal, even if the playerbase doesn't always play it that way.)

The playerbase -never- plays it that way and I don't buy that they should. Even if the sexes are equal it doesn't mean there aren't cultural distinctions between them. Since no one's whipping out their junk and showing it off (usually), you need indicators to tell people whether you're a man or a woman so that they can pursue or ignore you appropriate. Transsexuals generally want the opposite indicators.

Dresses aren't any more for girls than chitin breastplates are for men in Zalanthas.

If we want to start assigning gender roles to clothing, we can, but we have to do it across the board, not just where we feel comfortable personally.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Absolutely.

[Malken]

I don't think that cross-dressers = transexuals.

Transexuals in the way EvilRoeSlade is talking about would probably be deemed mutants I'm thinking.

A woman with a penis would be a mutant, since there's no real way she could have a surgery to have one attached medically speaking.

There's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.

[Beethoven]

There are indicators on some of the clothing descs that say whether or not the articles appear to be made for a woman or a man, so I would say that at this time, at least, Zalanthan fashion appears to be gender-specific. I would say that "cross-dressing" could be seen as a fashion choice, a personality quirk, a novelty, a hobby, or "meh," but definitely not OMG WTF THAT MAN IS WEARING A DRESS. Should it really be weirder for a man to be wearing the "feminine" shoes than it is for a woman to be wearing the "masculine" shoes? On Earth, it's more acceptable for women to wear traditionally "masculine" clothes, at least in Western society, but all things should be equal on Zalanthas, really.

But we digress.

I'm more inclined to wonder if eunuchs would exist on Zalanthas than transgendered people as we know them. That seems very thematic, actually.

[ShaLeah]

Kojiro Fale was a cross dresser sometimes.
More recently there was a Kadian who cross dressed. I've never seen someone labeled that. I'd say it's an underplayed thing considering how many PLAYERS are transexuals here. Guess they wanna play something OTHER than themselves in game?

Revered? I wouldn't say so.
Valued as escorts? I wouldn't say that has anything to do with transgender and more to do with an individual character, like whores or concubines. There's no entity of transgendered escorts.
I'd say they'd be as accepted as gays and straights are in the known, that they're totally normal. Rare (as in represented in the game world rare) perhaps, like eunuchs, but normal. I'd add that (imo) any character shunning them is reacting against docs.

[Quell]

One thing you could do is play in a tribe that does have gender roles. Some of the tribes break the general Zalanthan mold and have distinct positions for male and female.

(An Arabetti male>female transgender would be so much fun!)

[Desertman]

There are indicators on some of the clothing descs that say whether or not the articles appear to be made for a woman or a man, so I would say that at this time, at least, Zalanthan fashion appears to be gender-specific. I would say that "cross-dressing" could be seen as a fashion choice, a personality quirk, a novelty, a hobby, or "meh," but definitely not OMG WTF THAT MAN IS WEARING A DRESS. Should it really be weirder for a man to be wearing the "feminine" shoes than it is for a woman to be wearing the "masculine" shoes? On Earth, it's more acceptable for women to wear traditionally "masculine" clothes, at least in Western society, but all things should be equal on Zalanthas, really.

But we digress.

I'm more inclined to wonder if eunuchs would exist on Zalanthas than transgendered people as we know them. That seems very thematic, actually.

The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.

If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it (or a mutant man with breasts...or a really fat man with boobies).

It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.

A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.

[Beethoven]

Being a transexual in Zalanthas would just mean you feel like your crotch should be different, since psychologically you are ALREADY the same in every way.

Are they the same in every way, though? I am kind of with you on this, as indicated by my previous posts, but there are still some differences. The voices are still pitched differently on Zalanthas (I assume,) and women have child-bearing hips (I assume,) breasts, and no facial hair (for the most part!) A lot of times male puberty is very traumatic for MTFs, because they start sprouting all this facial hair, and their voices drop, and they wish they were getting breast buds like their female friends their age, but...nope.

[Beethoven]

The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.

If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.

It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.

A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.

I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't think that cross-dressers = transexuals.

True.

There's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.

Not even a little true.

[Malken]

There's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.

Not even a little true.

In a world like Zalanthas? Come on..

Just the fact that we might start wondering if people living in a crazy dangerous world attempting to survive on a day to day basis would start wondering about their sexual identity is pushing it a bit, imho.

[Desertman]

The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.

If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.

It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.

A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.

I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.

I know the shoes you mean, and they are only "masculine" because that is the OOC descriptor for the player to visualize them.

Nobody in game on the IC level will look at them and say, "Those are boy shoes.".

They only have that sdesc as a OOC descriptor....the same way you will sometimes see people with "sky-blue eyes" even though we have no blue sky in Zalanthas, or "ice-colored hair", even though they have never seen ice.

So on and so forth. It's an OOC descriptor thing, not an IC thing.

[Beethoven]

There's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.

Not even a little true.

In a world like Zalanthas? Come on..

Just the fact that we might start wondering if people living in a crazy dangerous world attempting to survive on a day to day basis would start wondering about their sexual identity is pushing it a bit, imho.

I think it's plausible, but they wouldn't treat it like we're used to. "Oh, I just always -felt- like a woman." Some sort of tribal 'two-spirit' type thing makes more sense to me and reeks less of modernity and first-world problems.

(Now, mind you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having always felt like a woman, but we're allowed to just pursue how we feel because we live comfortably, which is why that sounds so Western and modern to our ears.)

[LauraMars]

Oh man.

I blinked and this thread grew almost an entire page.

Great question ERS (and welcome back) but so help me the rest of you if you mess up this thread or turn it into a spiral of nonsensical flaming I'll find you and I'll kill you I'll politely ask you to stop, and moderate any offensive posts.