Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[Revenant]

So you think that whether someone identifies as a male or female in their own mind is the product of the environment they grew up in? I've seen that position from some people on the far left before and I'm always amazed at the apparent double thick it presents.

Homosexuals are born that way but transsexuals aren't? Or do you think that children can be taught to be gay as well, thus validating the conservative right's fears about letting gay/trans tolerant material into classrooms etc.

It would seem to me that if you really can teach children to be gay, straight, bi, male, or female ... then the far right has a valid point of concern in not wanting their children to be exposed to those concepts.

I'm on the other side of the fence. I don't think any of that is a choice and exposure to it as a child is just going to engender tolerance rather than conversion.

But alright, I'll listen to the podcast you posted. While I'm doing that, why don't you give the story of David Reimer a read and then we'll take the topic to PM's.

I used to work for a district manager who spent most of his adult life unhappy because he tried his damndest to be straight, he had this issue with what he was on the inside, and fought hard to suppress it, even as an adult, went to camps and classes meant to make him straight, had, five children. Good fellow, actually, good manager... it wasn't until he was much older and his hair was grey and falling out that he said "You know what, I've been fighting this my whole damn life, and this is just, who I am." and allowed himself to be as he was. He said he was unhappy before, deeply so, but letting himself be liberated from his preconceived notions and learn to love what he was made his life quite a bit more tolerable. Sometimes, I think, life is a journey to free yourself from what you've been taught to think is right, and to accept what you actually feel is right. Life should be a celebration of all the opportunities we have to enjoy it, and not a rigid, mechanical doctrine on how we should behave ourselves. I understand that opens the door to a lot of scarier notions, but with empathy exercises and careful introspection I believe these could be avoided.

[Revenant]

Also, no hot dogs on Friday.

[musashi]

I edited that out Beethoven because while it is a common pro-gay argument made by people that "they were born this way thus ... you shouldn't hate them" ...

It's not actually my position personally. I wouldn't hate them even if I knew for a fact that being gay or transsexual was as whimsical a lazy afternoon choice as deciding pizza or a sandwich.

I included it at first because it's been a popular pro gay argument in general, but then snipped that bit out because it's not actually a thing I find compelling.

[Beethoven]

I edited that out Beethoven because while it is a common pro-gay argument made by people that "they were born this way thus ... you shouldn't hate them" ...

It's not actually my position personally. I wouldn't hate them even if I knew for a fact that being gay or transsexual was as whimsical a lazy afternoon choice as deciding pizza or a sandwich.

I included it at first because it's been a popular pro gay argument in general, but then snipped that bit out because it's not actually a thing I find compelling.

Then I will edit my bit out likewise.

[musashi]

And Revenant I think I'm 100% in your boat. My point is that society can try for all it's damnest to raise you and indoctrinate you as straight and cisgendered.

But if that isn't who you are ... then it isn't who you are. Thus, I reject the notion that gender identity, and sexual orientation are socialized behaviors, and lean instead in the direction I think the science supports ... that it's primarily a predetermined genetic disposition.

[Revenant]

Well, not to compare sexuality or gender-identity to mental illness, but much like any other state of being, there can be both biological and environmental components... You can have genetically identical twins and one will develop a mental illness while the other will not. There are trigger events as well, you may be predisposed to cancer, and never encounter the situation that triggers it, like, not keeping a stash of uranium rods in your closet, or not contracting certain illnesses that cause it. For numerous mental illnesses, the conditions seem to require some kind of stress and abuse, possibly mental and/or physical. For other states of being, I can't really speak because I haven't really looked into the causes. As far as sexuality and gender-identity are concerned, I don't see them as problems so I have little reason to investigate the causes.

[bardlyone]

sex - biological, inborn
gender - society's idea of how the sexes should act.

It's really that simple.

When sex and gender do not match up, that is when you are considered transgender.

That's not saying you weren't born that way (You were born loving pink and dresses), that's saying that it's society telling you you're female because men don't wear dresses or like pink, due to gender roles. I don't really understand how you think I'm saying what you implied, there, musashi, unless you're talking about someone else I don't know? Because that doesn't conflict. If you were born as a guy who likes dick, that's not a choice, if you were born as a guy who likes pink (and also by extension of the example "feels like a woman"), also not a choice. I never said otherwise. I said that if society didn't have dictates for how a man acts and how a woman acts, gender roles and gender identity would be more or less irrelevant.

[musashi]

Bardlyone,

As I said before, we were using two separate definitions for the word gender.

You meant that. I meant what you would probably refer to as "gender identity".

But I'm a little confused now because even by the source material for the definitions you provided, transgender is not when gender and sex don't match up. It's when gender identity and sex don't match up.

I'm talking less about a man being born liking pink (a rather cosmetic cultural thing that could just as easily be associated with men or women depending on the culture's fancies) ...

And more about a man being born feeling like he should be getting pregnant and growing breasts. Feeling like you're in the wrong body. This isn't a cosmetic cultural thing. It's a biological thing. This is what it means to be trans-gendered.

A guy who likes pink and otherwise feels comfortable in his own skin is just a guy who likes pink. If he likes dresses and make up and wants to make out with boys ... but still feels like he's biologically a man ... then by the definitions you provided he isn't trans-gendered. He's a gay man exhibiting gender non-conformative behavior.

[musashi]

BTW I disagree that people are born loving pink and dresses too 
I'm don't think NOTHING can be the result of environment ... I just think THIS THING that we're talking about isn't one of them.

[musashi]

Well, not to compare sexuality or gender-identity to mental illness, but much like any other state of being, there can be both biological and environmental components... You can have genetically identical twins and one will develop a mental illness while the other will not. There are trigger events as well, you may be predisposed to cancer, and never encounter the situation that triggers it, like, not keeping a stash of uranium rods in your closet, or not contracting certain illnesses that cause it. For numerous mental illnesses, the conditions seem to require some kind of stress and abuse, possibly mental and/or physical. For other states of being, I can't really speak because I haven't really looked into the causes. As far as sexuality and gender-identity are concerned, I don't see them as problems so I have little reason to investigate the causes.

I think that the science backs you on this point when we're talking about sexual orientation. Going by research as it stands most people seem to be born on a spectrum and environment seems to further narrow said spectrum for them as they grow up. And women seem to exhibit more sexual plasticity than men post-development.

But most of the research we have today on gender identity actually suggests genetic and hormonal influences are the overwhelming primary drivers.

[bardlyone]

Guess it depends on who you talk to. My best friend, who is a transmale, always talks in terms of male parts of culture and male things. Not a male body specifically, and in fact, has never used a binder or anything similar, unlike another transmale friend of mine, who has dysphoria over having breasts. Of course, it doesn't just vary between the six trans people I know, but almost universally. This is a pretty good article from a trans woman on such: everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/not-born-in-the-wrong-body/ - but yes, please forgive me for using gender and gender role interchangeably once.

[musashi]

Guess it depends on who you talk to. My best friend, who is a transmale, always talks in terms of male parts of culture and male things. Not a male body specifically, and in fact, has never used a binder or anything similar, unlike another transmale friend of mine, who has dysphoria over having breasts. Of course, it doesn't just vary between the six trans people I know, but almost universally. This is a pretty good article from a trans woman on such: everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/not-born-in-the-wrong-body/ - but yes, please forgive me for using gender and gender role interchangeably once.

The article ... while a very moving story about that person's struggle to accept themselves, does begin with:

When the doctor asked me why I wanted to begin the hormone therapy that would lower my production of testosterone and increase the level of estrogen in my body...

Which would seem to undercut the point.

Maybe I'm missing something in what you were trying to convey but to me this article said: After years of hating my body, and always feeling like no matter how much I try to modify it, it will never feel perfect hence ... I have decided to accept it.

Rather than: I have never felt uncomfortable in my own skin.

[bardlyone]

Whatever, musashi. It's all alien to me. I don't identify with a personal gender at all.

Say what you want, make it about what you want, keep thinking the way you think. Just don't act like I'm twisting anything or throwing anyone anywhere. Because until the comment about twisting things to fit with feminism, I was pretty much done with the thread. And I still am.

[musashi]

I should clarify I'm not saying I think every transsexual person must have sexual dysphoria.
I am saying that it is more common the further apart your body type and gender identity are statistically, but I don't want to give you the impression that I think it's an absolute prerequisite.
I'm sure there are transsexual people out there (especially in societies that have a space for them to exist) who feel comfortable in their own skin.

My point about biology is simply this:

When humans are born the evidence appears to show that they already have a predisposition for whether they identify as male or female. This does not always line up with how they physically developed.

From there ... what happens is very likely the result of culture.

If the culture has a place for males who identify as females and the other way around, and it's accepting of them, I personally suspect they will grow up feeling fine because there's a spot for them to exist in without constantly feeling like an outcast.

If the culture doesn't have a spot for that ... we get what we have now.

[musashi]

Whatever, musashi. It's all alien to me. I don't identify with a personal gender at all.

Say what you want, make it about what you want, keep thinking the way you think. Just don't act like I'm twisting anything or throwing anyone anywhere. Because until the comment about twisting things to fit with feminism, I was pretty much done with the thread. And I still am.

I don't think you're personally doing anything.

I think that certain strains of feminism, in their effort to get more women into roles they don't seem to want to voluntarily go into despite having largely eliminated the barriers that were in their way, approach what they perceive as a problem from the angle of: Genders roles must receive no influence from biology. It must be an entirely socialized construct. So we change the construct, and then we'll have 50/50 parity of the sexes in every available role.

It just had the unforeseen effect of leaving trans-gendered people out in the cold by suggesting that their claim of having felt the way they feel since birth must be false ... since society should have been able to indoctrinate them into whatever role society normally sets up for their biological sex.

[Asche]

Just pointing out, boobplate definitely exists in game, in the sense of ornamental breast-forming armor. I saw it on a templar I interacted with fairly frequently. I actually think its a nice touch. Ornate, while giving a clear impression this person probably shouldn't be in combat. Boobplate actually makes sense as parade armor.

[musashi]

Yeah.

Functional armor on the other hand has always been pretty gender neutral by necessity in so far as to say, plate mail for example has a convex empty space in the breast plate of it's armor not because it cares about boobs or lack thereof, but because it wants to present a slanted angle to an incoming spear/lance/arrow so that the thrust/pierce is encouraged to slide off the armor instead of punch through it and skewer the wearer underneath.