Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[Beethoven]

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

Do the docs that say that kilts and bishts (aside from the Atrium uniform, I'd presume) are typically male garments need to be updated, then? Is Dman right that there are pretty much exactly as many Zalanthan men wearing dresses as there are men wearing pants and vests? I am not implying that a man wearing a dress should be prejudiced against in any way, but it does seem that the clothing descs, NPCs, and docs do not reflect absolute 100% gender-neutral fashion and an "everything is worn equally by everybody at all times" environment, if that is the imms' intention. (I don't even think I saw Nyr's NPC wearing a kalasiri or a wrap-skirt! And even if he did, he'd be the first one I ever saw!)

[Desertman]

If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?

Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.

With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.

I just want to know what staff has to say.

You can make a character that berates people for anything, an asshole is an asshole. What you CANNOT (I mean you CAN but it's against the docs) do is make fun of a male for wearing a dress or a woman for wearing a breech-guard because they're supposed to be treated equally, without sexism. Being gender BIAS is against the rules. Now if your character is a prick and just doesn't like dresses, sure, berate away. But unless you create an ic reason for your character to look down on people who wear specific clothing, you making fun of a man for wearing a dress is a real life prejudice/sexism.

I'm not talking about berating them because I don't like their style. I'm talking about berating them because they are wearing clothes that aren't for their gender. That and only that.

Either I can or I can't. One of those means clothing has gender-roles associated with in Armageddon, and one doesn't.

You can't have it both ways.

Edited to Add: Just realized I replied to this without seeing staff already weighed in. Oops.

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

[valeria]

Pretty sure she can, in fact, have it both ways  

~ It is our policy that the only prejudices to be RP'd out in game are those that only exist in game, or which don't exist outside of the game. Thus characters that discriminate based on the colour of a person's skin, their apparent gender or their sexuality will be just as maligned as those who discriminate because the way a character presents doesn't match their 'biological sex'. While I said these points would be presented in isolation I do want to add that calling these people 'mutants' to get around this is not appropriate.

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

Edit to add: damn your edit!

[Desertman]

Pretty sure she can, in fact, have it both ways  

~ It is our policy that the only prejudices to be RP'd out in game are those that only exist in game, or which don't exist outside of the game. Thus characters that discriminate based on the colour of a person's skin, their apparent gender or their sexuality will be just as maligned as those who discriminate because the way a character presents doesn't match their 'biological sex'. While I said these points would be presented in isolation I do want to add that calling these people 'mutants' to get around this is not appropriate.

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

Edit to add: damn your edit!

You realize this backs my point right? My point is that there are zero grounds in game to roleplay out calling out someone for wearing anything they want to wear because the very concept of "those are man's clothes" or "those are women's clothes".....doesn't even exist.

You should consider clothing styles as neither masculine, nor feminine, because they aren't....they are just made to fit a body type.

You can't have it both ways.

You can berate a man for wearing a dress that doesn't fit him. But only because he chose a dress that doesn't fit him. He can wear any dress he wants and it will be absolutely normal so long as the dress actually fits him.

[Desertman]

I got sidetracked. The reason the clothing issue matters to the OP is that it will set in a lot of ways the "precedent" for how transgendered characters are presented in game.

In real life if there is a transgendered person of the male to female persuasion, we generally associate certain characteristics with them.

For example, the above transgendered person in question would stereotypically do things like....wear make up, put on a feminine hairstyle, and start wearing "female clothing"...and usually try to alter the pitch of their voice to be more "feminine".



In Armageddon, a male to female transgendered individual WOULD NOT do those things....because those things aren't associated with females in Zalanthas any more than they are with men. They wouldn't run around wearing dresses because dresses are "girly"...they wouldn't put on makeup because makeup is "girly", and they wouldn't "grow their hair out" because it's "girly". All of those things in Zalanthas are just as much for males as they are for females in every single regard. They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.

If we are going to see transgendered individuals in Armageddon (and I'm sure we have before), I just want to make sure they don't start backing false stereotypes in order to "get the point across" that they are transgendered.

There are no stereotypes for them to even "cross" or "go against" or "conform to" in regards to gender roles, including their clothing options.

A transgendered male to female individual wouldn't need to nor would they even want to really change anything about themselves, other than their crotch bits. It wouldn't even be a concept because there already are no differences outside of that.

[Marauder Moe]

Given Armageddon's complete lack of gender roles/norms/expectations ... I'm hard pressed to think of what would stand out about a transsexual in the first place.

Pretty much my thoughts on the topic.

[Delirium]

Let's not drag this into that old argument again, Desertman.

It's been well established that "masculine" and "feminine" exist, one is simply not better than the other.

I know you love to get off on a tear about how you visualize it, but let's just let that poor horse die.

[Desertman]

It's been well established that "masculine" and "feminine" exist,

I don't think it has. Please quote.

[Delirium]

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

Body shape = masculine, or feminine.

I really don't think we need to make as huge a deal out of this as you're trying to. It's semantics. This has been a good discussion.

[Desertman]

[img width=400 height=300]
*snarky picture removed*

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

Body shape = masculine, or feminine.

I really don't think we need to make as huge a deal out of this as you're trying to. It's semantics. This has been a good discussion.

You are quoting my exact point. They aren't feminine or masculine in terms of gender roles. They are designed to fit a body shape. The "masculine" and "feminine" descriptors aren't an IC concept. They are an OOC concept to help the player get a visual based on OOC norms and expectations. In Zalanthas, they wouldn't be referred to as masculine or feminine.

If a man with unusually large pecs felt like a "feminine breastplate" was more comfortable for him....it would be absolutely normal for him to wear it and nobody in Zalanthas would find it odd in any regard....unless it actually didn't fit him...then the only thing odd would be his choice of picking armor that didn't fit him.

[Desertman]

If a female character wanted to wear this because she found it more "comfortable" personally....nobody would think it was weird, or think she was wearing anything unusual for her gender. IRL it's for a man obviously, in game....it's just a choice of armor. There are no gender roles associated with it.

[Delirium]

The way I read it, you were trying to completely abolish gender roles at all - like I said, it's a semantics thing. Maybe we actually agree, you're just being more hardline about it.

My point is that feminine and masculine DO exist they're just not seen as better or worse. It's a fine distinction.

I'm done.

[LauraMars]

This has been a good discussion.

Indeed it has.

Let's pray it continues to be a good discussion.

I think gendered clothing, attitudes, and behavior can exist on Zalanthas, but I also think these things are on a level.  Unlike real life, feminine mannerisms are on the same social level as masculine mannerisms.

So while a male acting full out feminine and wearing clothes cut for a female body might be seen as unusual, my take is that the behavior and dress wouldn't be considered bad, weak, sissy, limp-wristed, or any other negative term that is usually applied to feminine behavior.   I imagine reactions to cross dressing would raise far fewer eyebrows as a result.

Can you imagine a world in which girly behavior is considered acceptable for everyone?  Gosh, Zalanthas is a paradise of equality and I wish I could live there.

[Delirium]

Thank you, Laura, that's a much better explanation of what I was trying to say.

[Nyr]

Yep, that makes sense to me.

[Alesan]

[img width=400 height=300]
*snarky picture removed*

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

Body shape = masculine, or feminine.

I really don't think we need to make as huge a deal out of this as you're trying to. It's semantics. This has been a good discussion.

You are quoting my exact point. They aren't feminine or masculine in terms of gender roles. They are designed to fit a body shape. The "masculine" and "feminine" descriptors aren't an IC concept. They are an OOC concept to help the player get a visual based on OOC norms and expectations. In Zalanthas, they wouldn't be referred to as masculine or feminine.

If a man with unusually large pecs felt like a "feminine breastplate" was more comfortable for him....it would be absolutely normal for him to wear it.

I strongly disagree with the notion of OOC descriptors used in in-game items. How do you refer to that item in-game without delving into an explanation of what it is while avoiding the word that is meant to help describe the item in question? If a word is not to be used in the Zalanthan world, don't put it in any desc or sdesc. It's as simple as that.

I've read this entire thread plus that other thread where this same discussion went on and apparently this playerbase cannot agree on what gender-neutral means in the world of Zalanthas. It's no wonder it gets reflected in-game and some people are feeling like the gender role neutrality doesn't get represented enough. I can imagine new players being rather confused as to how it should play out in-game as a result.

[Desertman]

I don't disagree with either of your points that some things in Zalanthas would obviously be made for a traditional female body type.

I think we even agree on why that matters.

My point is that if "The hulking, brutish man" walked in the Gaj wearing, "a large-breasted, feminine breastplate", nobody would bat an eye because "that's for a girl".

The only thing they would really say is, "You might want to see Salarr about that Amos. Get that taken in a little, it doesn't fit right.".

The reason that matters to the OP is because a transgendered character wouldn't intentionally pick "girly clothes" or "manly clothes"...because there are no girly or manly clothes. There are only clothes that fit, and clothes that don't fit.

Outside of that one scenario, really....nothing else is even on the table. That is the exceptional and I agree....jarring circumstance.

A list of things that wouldn't even be on the radar:
Softer voices
Smaller/weaker frames
Long/Feminine hair
Clothing options (outside of specific breast-related body type designs, which is covered above)
Makeup
Profession choices


So on and so forth. I think it would be extremely hard to truly "get the point across" that you are transgendered in Zalanthas, without just coming out and saying, "I feel like I should have a wang/vag.".....because there really are no norms for you to either conform to or go against.

[LauraMars]

dude, Desertman, you have stated the same opinion multiple times on all three pages of this thread...we understand.

anyway, this idea about boob-shaped armor is silly, because as we all know, boob armor is an impractical invention created by fantasy artists and writers who are way more concerned about looking at armored boobs than a protected torso.  and a true zalanthan warrior, concerned with staying alive, would not be wearing boob shaped armor, because it's fucking stupid and won't protect you nearly as well.

Here's a feminine breastplate.  It looks the same as a masculine one.

[Beethoven]

Dman, do you really not think that women in Zalanthas have other differences from men besides having a vag instead of a wang? Even if they don't have "softer" voices, do you not think their voices are higher pitched, or are all voices in Zalanthas pitched the same? I do not think that is necessarily what the creators of this game had in mind when they proposed total gender equality. Is facial hair the same too? The Adam's apple (Amos' ginka?) You mentioned breasts. Maybe we can be generous and nix the childbearing hips, but even without those, there are still other differences. Just because Zalanthan men 100% match Zalanthan women in strength and social power doesn't mean there aren't any secondary sex characteristics at all.

[Desertman]

dude, Desertman, you have stated the same opinion multiple times on all three pages of this thread...we understand.

anyway, this idea about boob-shaped armor is silly, because as we all know, boob armor is an impractical invention created by fantasy artists and writers who are way more concerned about looking at armored boobs than a protected torso.  and a true zalanthan warrior, concerned with staying alive, would not be wearing boob shaped armor, because it's fucking stupid and won't protect you nearly as well.

Here's a feminine breastplate.  It looks the same as a masculine one.

I've seen boobed breastplates in game. They were pretty awesome, if impractical. (Written to look pretty frickin' awesome.)

[Beethoven]

In other words, if there were actually no differences between women and men on Zalanthas except the wang, the vag, and the breasts, women with small enough breasts would be absolutely, 100% indistinguishable from men. Flat-chested women should all put "human" in their sdescs and not reveal their gender in their mdescs because LORE.

[Nyr]

The example about the hulking brute wanting to wear the breasted breastplate is pointless, mostly because we don't have those.

The list of things that have the word "feminine" in the description is pitifully small, same as "masculine".  Most describe clothing or shoes.  Only two breastplate pieces are described that way, and neither say they have boobie bulges, merely that they are adapted for a feminine form.  Your interpretation after that point is more subjective.  Some females may have a more feminine form and might wear them.  Some males may have a more feminine form and might wear them.  Conversely, some females and males may be hulking brutes that will instead wear the WoW-inspired pauldrons of might.

[Desertman]

The example about the hulking brute wanting to wear the breasted breastplate is pointless, mostly because we don't have those.

The list of things that have the word "feminine" in the description is pitifully small, same as "masculine".  Most describe clothing or shoes.  Only two breastplate pieces are described that way, and neither say they have boobie bulges, merely that they are adapted for a feminine form.  Your interpretation after that point is more subjective.  Some females may have a more feminine form and might wear them.  Some males may have a more feminine form and might wear them.  Conversely, some females and males may be hulking brutes that will instead wear the WoW-inspired pauldrons of might.

Yeah I've never actually seen it happen, and the one boobied breastplate I'm thinking about doesn't even have "feminine" in it.

But I've never seen a transgendered character in game either. So, I'm throwing out potential situations based on possibly new situations to "map out" expectations, so to speak.

I just don't want to see a transgendered character walking around wearing "heels" because heels are "girly" and they feel like a girl.

That sort of thing.

At the end of the day I'm trying to think of a single thing they "could" do to express their sexuality beyond just saying they "feel like their parts should be different". I can't. I think it's an interesting topic.

[LauraMars]

In other words, if there were actually no differences between women and men on Zalanthas except the wang, the vag, and the breasts, women with small enough breasts would be absolutely, 100% indistinguishable from men. Flat-chested women should all put "human" in their sdescs and not reveal their gender in their mdescs because LORE.

It's interesting how much of our social gender coding relies on cues other than sexual characteristics.  If I go take out the garbage in baggy pants and a hoodie, random people driving by will still know I'm a girl, because my nails are long and painted and my hair's styled in a feminine way.  I probably move a lot like a girl, too.  Really, this is true for everyone.  Tons of guys have bigger boobs than I do, but I'd still know they were guys if I looked at them, even if they were clean shaven and had long hair.  Why? Because they don't go to the trouble of presenting as a woman.  Just like I don't go through the trouble of presenting as a man.

I imagine there's similar social cues in Zalanthas that lets people know whether or not that runty, flat-chested street rat is a boy or a girl.  The only difference is that one set of behavior isn't seen as superior to the other set of behavior.  They're both just street rats.  Oppress them!

[Desertman]

^ That's a interesting thought.

I hate to err on the side of "norms" and "expectations" when it comes to gender-related characteristics beyond basic biological necessities. (The wang and the vag.)

The hulking, brutish woman would be just as common as The hulking, brutish man.

The large-hipped, soft-skinned man would be just as common as The large-hipped, soft-skinned woman.

We don't see that reflected a lot in the PC's in game, but I think it holds true anyways.