Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[Beethoven]

The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.

If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.

It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.

A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.

I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.

I know the shoes you mean, and they are only "masculine" because that is the OOC descriptor for the player to visualize them.

Nobody in game on the IC level will look at them and say, "Those are boy shoes.".

They only have that sdesc as a OOC descriptor....the same way you will sometimes see people with "sky-blue eyes" even though we have no blue sky in Zalanthas, or "ice-colored hair", even though they have never seen ice.

So on and so forth. It's an OOC descriptor thing, not an IC thing.

Are you sure? I have heard it argued both ways on these boards. I personally imagined it meant that it was a style more commonly worn by men. I mean, certain styles do appear to be worn more by men and others by women. If you go around looking at NPCs, the male ones tend to wear pants. I don't think I have seen a male one with a skirt and high heels. I wish there were more "cross-dressing" male NPCs, but alas, they seem to be lacking. If it is the intention to convey that all styles are worn equally by both genders, the NPC world does not appear to be conveying that any better than the PC world.

Seriously, though, eunuchs.

[Desertman]

I have no comment on the idea of transitioning in game without modern medicine and science to aide in that process.

It's a world full of magick, so, anything is possible I guess.

My only comments are related to the idea that transexuals wouldn't exist in game the way they exist in real life when we think about a stereotype for a transexual.

They wouldn't "dress up as the other gender", because there are no gender roles on clothes.

They wouldn't, "act like a boy or a girl", because we all act the same.

They wouldn't "think they felt like a girl or a boy", because psychologically we are all exactly the same on the same playing field.

The absolute only way they could be a transexual would be at the bare base core of wanting either a wang, or a vag, and that's it.

[Desertman]

The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.

If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.

It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.

A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.

I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.

I know the shoes you mean, and they are only "masculine" because that is the OOC descriptor for the player to visualize them.

Nobody in game on the IC level will look at them and say, "Those are boy shoes.".

They only have that sdesc as a OOC descriptor....the same way you will sometimes see people with "sky-blue eyes" even though we have no blue sky in Zalanthas, or "ice-colored hair", even though they have never seen ice.

So on and so forth. It's an OOC descriptor thing, not an IC thing.

Are you sure? I have heard it argued both ways on these boards. I personally imagined it meant that it was a style more commonly worn by men. I mean, certain styles do appear to be worn more by men and others by women. If you go around looking at NPCs, the male ones tend to wear pants. I don't think I have seen a male one with a skirt and high heels. I wish there were more "cross-dressing" male NPCs, but alas, they seem to be lacking. If it is the intention to convey that all styles are worn equally by both genders, the NPC world does not appear to be conveying that any better than the PC world.

Seriously, though, eunuchs.

I'm fine with us starting to assign gender roles in game and assigning gender roles to clothing as such. Trust me, I would personally be more comfortable and I find most PC's play that way anyways.

Cross-dressing wouldn't even be a term that would exist on Zalanthas unless you were "dressing like an elf".

But the fact is, we don't. If we want to start we can, but for now, it just isn't a thing in Zalanthas.

[Beethoven]

Seems weird to me that there are no dresses that I have seen that are described as cut for a male body type, as in someone with no breasts, then.

[Desertman]

Seems weird to me that there are no dresses that I have seen that are described as cut for a male body type, as in someone with no breasts, then.

*shrug* You are preaching to the choir. I'm only stating what is....even if there is a lot of evidence in game that suggests not everyone is comfortable playing what is.

MOST people prefer playing traditional gender roles in game from what I have found, at least to one extent or the other.

Very few are the women I see who go full on "man"...even less are the men I see who go full on "woman".

Still, dresses aren't for women any more than armored gauntlets are for men. IRL...sure...in game, not at all. Is that jarring? Yeah. Do A LOT of people feel more comfortable going with what's "normal" to them...and do a lot of items reflect that preference? Yes....but that doesn't change the lore.

[Malken]

Man, I dunno why I feel like I need to say that I'm super liberal irl (must be Lauramars' threat! ;p) but I still think that transexuals (again, not cross-dressers) would be deemed mutants and not someone that would be praised for being "different", otherwise, what is a mutant and what isn't on Zalanthas then?

Mutants -

Biology.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.

Isn't that what a trans-sexual is? Someone that is going against its biological nature (either by choice or not?)

Great! Now I wrote that transexuals are mutants ;p

[Beethoven]

Yeah, I agree, we're talking past each other, even though we're kind of on the same page. But if the lore is "there are just as many men waltzing around in dresses as there are prancing around in pants" (which I agree there should be, based on what staff has said before about there being no difference between the sexes, culturally speaking,) then I don't understand why the NPCs that staff wrote up to reflect the game world and the atmosphere and the culture do not reflect this. It's sort of confusing, and I think it's because I think it's not so much about "lore" as it is about the fact that everyone is allowed to play whatever kind of character they want, adhering to or bending or breaking whatever gender norms they wish.

[Desertman]

Yeah, I agree, we're talking past each other, even though we're kind of on the same page. But if the lore is "there are just as many men waltzing around in dresses" (which I agree there should be, based on what staff has said before,) then I don't understand why the NPCs that staff wrote up to reflect the game world and the atmosphere and the culture do not reflect this. It's sort of confusing, because I think it's not so much about "lore" as it is about the fact that everyone is allowed to play whatever kind of character they want, adhering to or bending or breaking whatever gender norms they wish.

Likely because we don't have a lot of people who are cross-dressers IRL or transexuals writing up NPC's. People tend to write up what they are comfortable with and relate to personally or would "find fun" personally, if they were playing that NPC.

I don't think we should read anything into it in terms of the lore and gender roles in game....NPC's are still .000001% of the population anyways.

[Beethoven]

This thread has inspired me to be the change I want to see. And the change I want to see is more eunuchs.

[Desertman]

This thread has inspired me to be the change I want to see. And the change I want to see is more eunuchs.

My next PC: (will report everyone who looks at him funny or makes comments about his fashion choices in game)

[Beethoven]

Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."

I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.

[Desertman]

Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."

I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.

If staff wants to chime in and say we are now assigning gender roles to clothing...I'm on board heh. I just don't think that is going to happen.

[ShaLeah]

Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."

I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.

If staff wants to chime in and say we are now assigning gender roles to clothing...I'm on board heh. I just don't think that is going to happen.

Clothing has and always will be gender specific until the documents say otherwise and males start wearing gowns and bras. And when kilts are called skirts or vice versa. We use the terms we understand in real world and men don't wear panties... unless they're transgendered or cross dressers.

[Beethoven]

Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."

I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.

If staff wants to chime in and say we are now assigning gender roles to clothing...I'm on board heh. I just don't think that is going to happen.

I'm just pointing out that it's actually in the documentation. Staff obviously has "chimed in," because they put those tendencies into the docs. It's not something that is "now" happening--it looks like those descriptions have been there for a while. If they're outdated, they can be updated. I don't think anyone would be seen as a weirdo for wearing a kilt as a female, but it looks like they're supposed to usually be worn by males, just like IRL.

[Erythil]

I have always interpreted the 'no gender roles' moreso to mean that women can fulfill traditionally male roles, and that men can be effeminate without it raising eyebrows.

I think it's pretty clear that cross-dressing, although it would be tolerated, would be by no means the norm.  In a world without gender roles, for instance, what would be so thrilling about a man wearing a bra?  It's just an unnecessary garment.

[Desertman]

If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?

Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.

With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.

I just want to know what staff has to say.

[Beethoven]

If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?

Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.

With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.

I just want to know what staff has to say.

I don't think that is true. Something can be slightly uncommon without being jarring enough to be called freakish, especially when the genders are not really much of a dividing line, anyway. Just because something is a trend to be worn by one gender or another doesn't mean it's crazy or bizarre for the other sex to wear it. And I know you want to hear from staff directly rather than some noobish player like me, but no matter whether or not some clothes have a gender association, I do not think staff would look fondly on anyone berating someone for wearing gender-bending clothes.

[Erythil]

If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?

Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.

With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.

I just want to know what staff has to say.

It can certainly be unusual, or outlandish.

There is gender-neutral clothing and gender-specific clothing, but there's no huge taboo if the specifics are bent a bit.  That's the way I see it.

[ShaLeah]

If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?

Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.

With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.

I just want to know what staff has to say.

You can make a character that berates people for anything, an asshole is an asshole. What you CANNOT (I mean you CAN but it's against the docs) do is make fun of a male for wearing a dress or a woman for wearing a breech-guard because they're supposed to be treated equally, without sexism. Being gender BIAS is against the rules. Now if your character is a prick and just doesn't like dresses, sure, berate away. But unless you create an ic reason for your character to look down on people who wear specific clothing, you making fun of a man for wearing a dress is a real life prejudice/sexism.

[Beethoven]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it would be seen as sexism. Because you'd have to think: what would you be berating a man in a dress for, actually, even if it's determined that dresses are, for whatever reason, much more commonly worn by Zalanthan women? Would you be making fun of him for...looking like a woman? Because that would not be seen as "weak" or "fragile" or "pansy-ass" on Zalanthas. If you're giving him shit for wanting to look like a woman, that edges dangerously close to sexism. I guess you could make fun of him for wearing fancy floofy impractical clothes, just as long as you'd make fun of a woman in the same outfit, or a man in an equivalent vest and breeches set.

Now, if he likes dressing up like an elf, and he's not some sort of performer...there's definitely something wrong with that!

[musashi]

Given Armageddon's complete lack of gender roles/norms/expectations ... I'm hard pressed to think of what would stand out about a transsexual in the first place.

[Majikal]

I've seen furries come into the game, why not a transexual?

Really though, playing a trans in Armageddon wouldn't add much to the world for me, it'd likely start jarring conversations in the tavern, ooc hurt feelings and be a general annoyance in it's mere existence. Not because it's a transexual pc, but because I don't think enough players would understand how to handle it and those that didn't handle it right would annoy me to the point of avoiding it alltogether.

Edited by Nyr.  Please don't use such epithets to describe transexuals.

[Rathustra]

Just several pieces of information on the subject, in no particular order, written in isolation and not connected to any of the other posts in this thread:

~ The selection of male or female at character creation determines your character's presentation. It codedly results in assigning your character's pronouns and what other players will assume your character's sex is at a glance. It is not tied to anything physiological or psychological about your character - you are free to play your character as you wish. This is in line with our policy of zero sexual dimorphism in our currently playable races.

~ Characters can still experience body dysmorphia and attempt to attain an outward appearance that is in-line with their wishes. Just because men and women in Zalanthas can possess any sort of body type doesn't mean individuals cannot feel uncomfortable with their body.

~ It is our policy that the only prejudices to be RP'd out in game are those that only exist in game, or which don't exist outside of the game. Thus characters that discriminate based on the colour of a person's skin, their apparent gender or their sexuality will be just as maligned as those who discriminate because the way a character presents doesn't match their 'biological sex'. While I said these points would be presented in isolation I do want to add that calling these people 'mutants' to get around this is not appropriate.

~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.

[Nyr]

To piggyback on that same bit from Rathustra, I've played at least one male NPC that wore items deliberately sdesced as "feminine" because he thought they were stylish.  They fit his body better (or at least, he thought so).

[valeria]

I don't see why trans people wouldn't exist in Zalanthas.  Just because the gender roles are equal doesn't mean you couldn't be born feeling that your sex doesn't fit who you are.  Transzalanthas just wouldn't have the benefits of hormones or surgery.  And not all trans people choose to take hormones or have surgery even when they're available.