Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[Beethoven]

Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not.

Actually, I think what Lauramars and others mentioned earlier suggests that the opposite is true. The new banking system is suitable to first world standards and is not fitting with a harsh world environment. When you're asking the rich to contribute more BECAUSE they are rich, you're thinking very modern indeed. Fairness for all should not be an every day trait on Zalanthas.

Understand, I'm only being mildly critical about this, however, because I support the overall idea which has been implemented, and I believe the banking system should cost for its services (just like stabling an animal for endless months at a time should cost more than 20 coins). But it does seem like Nenyuk would simply lose all their noble customers when they have a free, 99% safe alternative to the bank. If the Great Merchant House is fine with that, more power to them. To most merchants a noble is the sort of customer you should be willing to go to great lengths to prevent any loss of business. They're buying your yachts and private jets after all while everyone else is small time by comparison.

I'm 100% with you here, but Nyr has already mentioned that changes are in the works that will take social hierarchy into consideration. What we're seeing right now is just the bones of the system that's going to be fleshed out soon.

I don't know what staff has in mind, but if their plan is to have rich, unaffiliated commoners punished more than anyone, GMHs have things a bit more lax, and the nobility and templarate receive very low fees indeed, then I will be pleased as punch with that.

[Delirium]

Another example of something that needed to be rolled out after other fixes had been made. What's left over from and what goes into a craft, the cost of raw materials vs finished, cost of tools - it's a convoluted process and I wouldn't envy the initial task, but you whip out a few excel spreadsheets and do some formula magic and you could eventually tweak everything until it mostly made sense. Then you gradually implement it in batches throughout the game, then add in hard-coded stuff like tools and wear and tear and banking fees.

Yes it's a huge task, but a virtual economy is never going to be simple. If you're going to fix it, then make the effort to fix it rather than band-aid it until it sort of works.

Do I appreciate that a lot of work went into it? Yes. Do I appreciate that steps are being taken and something is being done? Yes.

All I ask for is some care to how making these sorts of changes affects players on the ground level and doing things in the right order, instead of from easiest to hardest.

That's all I ask. I guess it's a lot.

[Suhuy]

sometimes the code is just the code.

True dat. It's what I meant when I was talking about suspension of disbelief.

And to follow your suggestion, Desertman, a noble PC could always make up an IC excuse as to why they can't safely keep their money in their 99% safe bedrooms. Maybe they have a virtual relative who breaks in and steals their spice all the time. Now they're going to steal even more if they don't cough up the fees required to store it with Nenyuk!

[Desertman]

sometimes the code is just the code.

True dat. It's what I meant when I was talking about suspension of disbelief.

And to follow your suggestion, Desertman, a noble PC could always make up an IC excuse as to why they can't safely keep their money in their 99% safe bedrooms. Maybe they have a virtual relative who breaks in and steals their spice all the time. Now they're going to steal even more if they don't cough up the fees required to store it with Nenyuk!

That's so funny because I was actually hired by one noble to steal something from another noble's room back in the day....they were part of the same House and they let me into their compound to do it ahahah.

[Suhuy]

Yes, but just to point it out, Dman, your situation is the 1% of the time it'll actually happen IC by PCs. Rare instances aside, nobles will have to fabricate virtual reasons because, yes, their rooms are probably 99% safe.

[Desertman]

Yes, but just to point it out, Dman, your situation is the 1% of the time it'll actually happen IC by PCs. Rare instances aside, nobles will have to fabricate virtual reasons because, yes, their rooms are probably 99% safe.

Oh I agree, I just thought that was funny.

(What I was sent to steal also ended up not being there.)

[LauraMars]

Heh, when I played a noble, the biggest threat to my belongings were all my burglar classed cousins!

[Beethoven]

Heh, when I played a noble, the biggest threat to my belongings were all my burglar classed cousins!

They just wanted to look you over carefully, I'm sure.

[Suhuy]

And there's nothing wrong with fabricating virtual reasons. It gives players opportunities to do something half the time, rather than sit and idle in a tavern. Want to visit Red Storm, but have no IC reason to go? Maybe your virtual aunt is sick and you need a remedy found only in the village.

But in the case of rich nobles and merchants, it needs to be understood this is being done because of the current game mechanics, not because it makes sense for a banking house to want to lose all their valuable customers. If someone on staff has already mentioned this is being adjusted, then cool.

And one needn't be a burglar in order to break into a family member's home, Laura. Only in the coded world of this MUD. Breaking into a sibling's room reminds me of the TV series the Borgias, as children to the Pope the children were practically royalty but they still pulled it off.

[Barzalene]

Thank you!

I love when we ask for change and get it.

I am trusting that if we try this for a few months and it needs tweaking staff will tweak. If not I will bitch loudly and whine. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. But let's see how it goes, you know.

I am worried about my pc's personal finances, but really hopeful about the change generally. Again, what I am saying is thank you staff.


Modiggitty, what does that Byn Lt get paid? I love my current pc, but I asked for vertical and I hate that you feel that it's not appreciated. You should talk with my clan staff. They might want to trade me to you in return for a turtle. I could Lt. The fuck out of the Byn.

[Suhuy]

Just to clarify my point earlier. They're not coded burglars if they're virtual.  They're virtual, they're part of the story line and not bound by the limitations of the code. Imagine a noble relative who waits for the maid to finish dusting the hall, then when she's done the noble takes her silver dinner knife and uses it to break the lock (or whatever method there is for a layman to do it in the real world but is not reflected with the code). People do it all the time in movies or novels and no one ever stops and says "they must be a coded burglar cuz otherwise it's not possible". The code also won't let you break a door down with force bur that doesn't mean doors are never broken down with force on Zalanthas. Just for us PCS.

[Nyr]

All I ask for is some care to how making these sorts of changes affects players on the ground level and doing things in the right order, instead of from easiest to hardest.

That's all I ask. I guess it's a lot.

We do consider how changes affect players on the ground level before making changes.  Sometimes we make additional changes because of how those changes affect players.  This happens every time anything gets debuted.  Some things (by their nature) get deployed all at once because it is self-contained (like a new skill, or a new functionality for a skill, or command emotes for several things, or moons rising and setting).  Some things (by their nature) get deployed in a piecemeal fashion.  This is one of those latter things, not one of those former things.

Do not let "perfect" be the enemy of "good". This is an improvement on the way to more improvements.  There is PC impact (this was in fact the intention) and that was weighed and determined to be an acceptable level of PC impact for staff.  We can and will tweak this and other things as we get more than 24 hours of data.

[Beethoven]

It must be kind of funny to be playing a noble at the moment. One day, everyone is keeping all their money at the bank because of course, they always have. Nobody wants to lug those hulking bags of 'sid around. The next day, what kind of madman uses the bank? Those fees are ridiculous! It's highway robbery, I tell you! Everyone and their [exotic novelty pet] keeps their obsidian stashed away under their mattress!

Later, maybe the social-hierarchy-friendly tweaks Nyr vaguely alluded to will come into play, and nobles will start always having gone to the bank once again.

[TheWanderer]

fees? pfft. #poorpeopleproblems

Code Select Expand

House Nenyuk lunges at you, but its blow is deftly deflected by a salting empire.

[wizturbo]

As I've said before, this is a net awesome change for the game.  My only gripes are relatively minor and I've confident they'll be tweaked and improved on.  

Great work, please don't let perfectionist tendencies detract from the overall win on this!  95% of players are getting the right dose of harshness

[Eurynomos]

Muahahahaha...

This is going exactly as I planned.

[Eurynomos]

More seriously, I don't think anyone is saying 'Screw off players, you've had your speech, now get on with it!' It's not black and white like that. Ultimately we have to make decisions to move the game forward -- We can't appeal to the player base for every step of the way. We can take what they say after the change has been effected into account, and we will, but again, we ultimately have to decide what to do not based on Player consensus, but Staff consensus.

Our policy is 'Show, don't tell'. It's safe to say we have more plans for the economy in the future -- This is the first of many changes to come. I'd recommend patience, and offering feedback and criticism is encouraged, but it may not necessarily means it effects change on the system.

[Barzalene]

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

The poorest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much money in 3 IC years by doing nothing except logging in and getting their stipends.  The richest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much in about 1.5 IC years.  If this is the biggest concern, I think they'll be okay waiting a week or two more if they wish to use Nenyuk to store their coin.

I have clearly lucked out with imms. Because I've always gotten the ones who would kick in the last 20% if I came up with the first 80%. I'm looking at you no saying imms. I am looking at you.

[Delirium]

I guess after the arm 2.0 debacle we're still regaining trust on both sides of the fence.

Being burnt doesn't mean we have to resort to information lockdown though. Or being afraid to ever state something in case you can't deliver.

Sometimes it's nice to have things to be excited about. So I'm glad to hear that this is part of a more holistic change.

[Eurynomos]

It is a good thing to remember there is no 'two sides to the fence'. Staff is comprised of 100% players. We also like playing the game still, and try to do what is best for the game in consideration of that as well. We don't want to make a game that is 100% fun to Staff, and 0% fun to play.

A change like this is one of those changes that is trying to get the game better in line to what it should be -- As it was pointed out, the banking code was basically stock DIKU, with no IC explanation as to why Nenyuk would be offering this service for free beyond the OOC convenience of having your coins stored in a 100% safe environment.

Now, your coins can be stored in that environment, but not free of charge. Other methods can be employed to keep your coins safe, but they will not be 100% safe. This is the way we believe it should be, in the general sense.

More specifically, there are modifications we are interested in that will take more time to code and effect -- We made a list from "easiest to hardest" of what we could implement to effect change. This was the 'easiest', though Nessalin put in a bunch of work to effect this change. We wanted to start broad, generalize, and build a good foundation. From that point, we can get more specific and address specific avenues of change, and make it less of a lumpy, big project.

[BadSkeelz]

People make money?

[roughneck]

The fact that my illiterate commoner with no social insurance number or identification documents can use a bank at all is far-fetched. I think this is a great step in the right direction.

Now, if there was a minimum balance required (5 - 10k) to use the bank, and even steeper fees, I'd think that's even better.

[wizturbo]

I just want banking fees to be an item that comes up in the Allanaki Senate for PC's to get their grubby hands on and play with...  Oh, how much fun it'll be to piss off all of the independents by raising those bank fees, to help pay for some noble's garden, or water fountain...  *cackle*

And, as someone else mentioned on this thread, please let this be the beginning of House Nenyuk becoming a playable merchant house...  I want to play a greedy Zalanthian banker and slumlord so bad.  So bad!!!!!  They even have awesome looking uniforms!

[Ender]

Our policy is 'Show, don't tell'. It's safe to say we have more plans for the economy in the future -- This is the first of many changes to come. I'd recommend patience, and offering feedback and criticism is encouraged, but it may not necessarily means it effects change on the system.

I think the problem I have with this system, is when it comes to a major change that fundamentally changes a coded aspect of the game, it's really painful to just blindside players with little to no warning.  Even like a two weeks heads up would be better.  And what would be BEST is to have the change occur ICly.

Changes that completely alter how an IC institution works and is used are JARRING when there's literally no build up or explanation other than "you were all idiots to think it hasn't always run like this."

It's way more fun when you roll out a seemingly punitive change to have a story to go along with it that people can get involved in and excited about.


Knowing there's more changes coming in the future but no clue what they are and how they will effect my PCs and his plans are kinda terrifying.  How do I plan for that?  Knowing one day I could log in after taking a week off at the beach, and my war beetle is dead because a change was rolled out without warning that all beetles need to be paid rent on or will be chopped up in the slaughterhouse.

[Delirium]

It is a good thing to remember there is no 'two sides to the fence'

That is a wonderful sentiment.  Something to strive for, certainly.

It is certainly not the impression that I get. The impression I get is more of an iron curtain than a fence.

More efforts at positive support, actual collaboration and honest communication would "show, not tell" that far more than simply claiming that we're all on the same side.

I'll reiterate that I don't hate the change, but the way it was implemented is symptomatic of these larger issues.