Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[Saellyn]

Know another solution?

Make the CLAN account your bank account. How?

Simple.

Log in reports exactly how much PERSONAL money you deposit in, and how much is paid into the account for the House. Then, at the summary, you write up what was deposited x week, and how much total you have deposited over time.

That way Staff can see you're not just using the infinite bank account for withdrawals, and they can also check back on what you're taking out/putting in to make sure you aren't skeezing them.

If that's not viable, well... shit. I'm just trying to make you guys realize this isn't that bad. There's almost nothing to complain about.

[Armaddict]

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

[Saellyn]

I know, right? Holy shit. Talk about an immediate 180. This is something YOU ALL WANTED. If I were Nathvaan I'd be crying that so many people out of nowhere just hated what I did without even legitimately trying it out first.

Then I'd drop 50 meks on all of you and laugh at your meagerness.

[Mordiggian]

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Saellyn]

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To be fair I never asked for more options damnit!


But I'm also busy with my role and can't apply. Sorry! At least I'm not the one whining about it amirite ?

[LauraMars]

People will always be worried about a change in routine.

Pretty much every major change that happens in is complained about in some way.

It is just part of game design and development human nature.

[wizturbo]

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

Like all economics, the devil is in the details.  I don't think anyone is saying they disagree with having a fee, but with how it was implemented.   I'm 100% behind a fee, I love the idea.  But I'd have implemented differently.   If Nenyuk charged 100 sid with every deposit, it would encourage people to carry more coin and act as a coin sink, but still encourage large amounts to be deposited/withdrawn because the fee is worth it at that point.   But now, choosing to deposit 10,000 in the bank is effectively costing you 2,000 coins...whether it's there for 5 days, or 5 years.  That's very, very expensive.

If a leader was putting together 50,000 coins for a festival, it'll now cost them 60,000 to do that, unless they choose to find places to stash their coin.  That could mean an extra month of fundraising...which can still be pillaged.  While outsiders might not be able to easily break into your estate, inside jobs can and probably will happen.  I know I sure as hell would plot against my fellow nobles if they had 50k stashed in their room ripe for the taking...this is Zalanthas after all.

Again, I'm not opposed to this, I just think it could've been implemented in a way that feels harsh and oppressive, without having such a harsh effect on the PC's that are supposed to be filthy rich.

[bardlyone]

That's because people don't know what they want. Of course they're bitching. It makes the game harder.

Disregard the fact that before it was implemented, making the game harder is why people were bitching that they wanted it to happen.

You can't please people. Especially when those people can't come to a consensus about what they want. Hell, even when they can, it doesn't mean they'll be happy to get it.

That's part of why I've never favored something like this. It doesn't really benefit anyone, and now everyone's bitching. A+ for effort. D for implementation. Not because it's bad, but because when you listen to the meat and potatoes of the bitching, that's what most of it revolves around. That just goes back to the problem of people not knowing what they want, though, ultimately.

[Saellyn]

.... Wizturbo.


WHAT?

Isn't this SUPPOSED to be harsh and oppressive!? This is ARMAGEDDON! You make no sense!

If you dump 50k into a bank account, I mean jesus, why do you care if 10k comes out for a withdrawal? It's based on how MUCH you withdraw, not how much you have IN.


Also, if you have a bank account that big, and you need to take that much money out of it, then a fucking fee is the LEAST of your problems.

[Case]

I like it. I enjoy despotic unfairness though.

Can't see how this would be a huge issue for my PCs, and I pay super poor and super rich. Just extra cost.

[Mordiggian]

If your bank balance is 60,000 (it almost definitely isn't) and you need to withdraw all 60,000 coins, the coins Nenyuk takes as a service fee are probably the least of your worries.

[KankWhisperer]

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wanted to be able to vertically achieve role options and not have someone be appointed. Also  I'm not complaining about the bank change yet, just amused

[Saellyn]

If your bank balance is 60,000 (it almost definitely isn't) and you need to withdraw all 60,000 coins, the coins Nenyuk takes as a service fee are probably the least of your worries.

Shut up, you, I just said that !

[Eyeball]

I know, right? Holy shit. Talk about an immediate 180. This is something YOU ALL WANTED.

If that's what you think, go back and read the thread again. The very first part of it was a suggestion that there be more options for spending money. Not just slamming the lid even harder on having money to spend.

[musashi]

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just to be fair ... I thought people were asking for the opportunity for more vertical promotions rather than vertical app-in's.  Then again I haven't read the boards in a long time. Could be wrong. But in my experience with leadership roles in a clan, it was a turn off realizing that my PC was app'd in at the only rank they were ever allowed to have as long as I was still playing them. I would imagine promotion equaling storage was the root of that complaint. Hence, app'ing someone in over head of you who also ... can't be promoted without being stored ... seems to miss the mark to me.

[wizturbo]

.... Wizturbo.


WHAT?

Isn't this SUPPOSED to be harsh and oppressive!? This is ARMAGEDDON! You make no sense!

If you dump 50k into a bank account, I mean jesus, why do you care if 10k comes out for a withdrawal? It's based on how MUCH you withdraw, not how much you have IN.

Seriously, this concept isn't that hard to grasp.  It's all the same.  The moment you deposit coin into Nenyuk, a percentage is lost.  Sure, you can look at your bank account number and see a number that's 10-20% larger than what you can actually withdraw, but that doesn't make it anymore real and useful to you, unless seeing a bigger number makes someone feel better?

And I'm all for harsh and oppressive.  Believe me...that's kinda my motto...  But this is going to have negative consequences on leaders, purely because its a large percentage based fee with no maximum.  Hell, put a maximum on it and that'd solve the problem.  Make it 20%, up to 1,000 coins, and you'd have created the same harsh and oppressive environment, without basically making the use of the bank only for the poor, financially retarded, or extremely risk adverse.

[Mordiggian]

If you feel like you have too much money and nothing to spend it on, I encourage you to look into things like paying taxes, renting a warehouse, hiring NPC guards, hawkers, merchants...

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just to be fair ... I thought people were asking for the opportunity for more vertical promotions rather than vertical app-in's.  Then again I haven't read the boards in a long time. Could be wrong. But in my experience with leadership roles in a clan, it was a turn off realizing that my PC was app'd in at the only rank they were ever allowed to have as long as I was still playing them. I would imagine promotion equaling storage was the root of that complaint. Hence, app'ing someone in over head of you who also ... can't be promoted without being stored ... seems to miss the mark to me.

Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

[Saellyn]

If PC Leader A has 30k and PC Leader B has 50k, the amount that they get fee'd for withdrawing 5000 coins is, if I'm right in what staff said, going to be 1,000 coins period. Which isn't that much. You lose 6,000 to get 5,000 out. How is that such a big deal? I'm not seeing it.

[musashi]

Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint 

[Rhyden]

Skimmed most of the thread so apologies if it's already been said.

What about deposited items such as jewelry? Will they be taxed too? Based on their value? Thanks.

[musashi]

Seriously, this concept isn't that hard to grasp.

I think you underestimate how hard the concept is to grasp. Think about how many people don't understand simple real world economic theory enough to realize why a flat tax sounds fair to everyone on the surface but actually screws the little guy to cater to the rich one ...

[Is Friday]

Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint 

Doubt it, since only 2 people wanted to play someone boxed into Lieutenant for their entire lifetime.

[musashi]

Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint  

Doubt it, since only 2 people wanted to play someone boxed into Lieutenant for their entire lifetime.

Starting a new PC at that rank is different from earning it in game. The Sergeants who would be promoted to that rank are going to be characters that are already in the Byn for their entire lifetime. But I don't want to derail the bank thread with that.

But for a real life comparison ... imagine that you were told you could not be promoted past Sergeant. No one in the Corps at your rank and below could. You complain about it, and then in response a civilian off the street is enlisted as a Staff Sergeant over you. Would you stop complaining? Or greif harder?

Also, would you be surprised if civilians, with no prior experience or commitment to the military ... were hesitant to enlist at that level of responsibility making turnout sparse? Would you take that to mean that people like you who are already in the Corps aren't interested in that promotion?

I think you're looking at apples and oranges.

[Pale Horse]

I like the change, but you can take my opinion with a crystal of salt since I'm not actively playing right now.

And, forgive me if I am wrong, but I am getting the impression from reading the posts in this thread that people are going off their initial "PANIC!!" and gut reactions and forgetting that the fee is based off of how much you withdraw.

Indie hunter #7 has a bank account of 5,000 sid?  Awesome for them.  They have the privilege of storing their cash in a totally secure location instead of the apartment/hovel/their own person where thieves can break in/thugs can knock you out and take everything.  What does indie hunter #7 get out of this?  Security and peace of mind that even if they did get robbed they had a completely secure money-space that, for a nominal fee on however much they withdrew at the time, they can access.

5,000 sid?  Withdraw 200 to cover your current expense..Banker takes out 20 'sid as a fee from your remaining money.  Entitled modern-day player thinks :"Fook da man for taken mi moneez!"  Indie hunter #7 in Zalanthas, who risks life and limb on a daily basis hunting beasts which (if everyone didn't take advantage of game mechanics and always had in mind that it's a mob with a limited set of coded behavior and not a Zalanthan animal with a vested interest in living) could kill or cripple them thinks: "Holy Tek!  I just survived a 'met hunt, crazy grass-loving elves and the daughter-of-a-'tok sands to get back to civilization to enjoy a round of drinks and Nenyuk is only taking 20 'sid for having kept my cash safe for the last 10 years!  The last time I dealt with nobles, they took 200 'sid as a fee for the glory of having worked with them and then docked my pay further for having gotten the color of my kank wrong (it didn't match the hunting party color scheme)!"

[wizturbo]

If PC Leader A has 30k and PC Leader B has 50k, the amount that they get fee'd for withdrawing 5000 coins is, if I'm right in what staff said, going to be 1,000 coins period. Which isn't that much. You lose 6,000 to get 5,000 out. How is that such a big deal? I'm not seeing it.

You're not grasping the concept...

PC Leader A doesn't have 30k.  They have 24k available to them...Nenyuk is going to seize 6k if they're at the 20% rate (which they are).  In fact, if they're actually intelligent bankers, they'll take your 6k away immediately and lend it to someone else.  No point in holding 30k in the bank for you, you won't be getting more than 24k back.

Sure, they might on paper only show that they're taking away your 6k slowly, as you withdraw from the account...but in reality, the moment you deposited that coin, the money was gone.

If a PC leader needs to accumulate large amounts of coin, to pay for a festival, an RPT, a massive Byn excursion, a wagon, an auction, or any number of other content generating activity....they now needs to accumulate 20% more, or store it in their bedroom and hope their clan members don't steal it.