Suggestion: make nobles actually wealthy

[Delusion]

This has cropped up in a couple threads lately, and an admin (Nyr?) said that noble stipends were changed to provide proper levels of income, except, even with the changed versions (changed when?) the stipends are honestly pathetically paltry, looking at them from a player level rather than an admin's point of view. Without giving precise numbers, a weekly stipend can be outstripped by a salt grebber's player spending an RL evening watching a couple movies and mashing 'forage salt' every twenty seconds. They can be outstripped by indie merchants in no time at all, too, by selling whatever crafted goods they feel like to whatever NPCs will buy.

The sneaky noble thread had a few people pointing to the problem that nobles have no real, tangible power. One thing to address for a start might at least be the lack of any real wealth. People working for nobles are at most playing along with the idea that nobles are wealthy, and pretending that the two or three thousand coins a noble might offer for a monumentally difficult task are actually worth it, compared to just finding someone who sells five pairs of black silky braies after each reboot to join up with.

Same problem applies to GMH people, but I don't even want to try to kill two birds with one stone.

[HavokBlue]

Giving nobles money won't solve that issue because people don't care about money, or they'll just take your money and fuck you over regardless.

[FantasyWriter]

I always thought that the point OOCly and ICly (though less so) of your House giving you a low stipend was to encourage you (OOCly) to be more involved and (ICly) to be out trying to better your interests (and thusly the House's).  Some houses have a business end that provides income: slave sales for Borsail/Winrothol, taxes from the templarate for public works for Jal/Tennessee).  Others have to rely on the House Stipends that comes from taxes. (probably assigned by the Senate or some Templarate council.)  That where the money probably comes from "on the books."  Then there is murder, corruption, and betrayal, always great sources of income.

[Riev]

First: Nerf Salt (by adding more roaming toughies)

Second: As above, the stipends are to help drive people into the clan initially, but if you want more coin its time to horn in on someone's territory. Try to cut a deal with a templar to bring in some spice or other things the State might need. Decide its your job to help govern independent trade in the city, so you seek out taxes and protection coin from what small groups pop up. Come up with creative ideas to generate coin, and know that the stipend will always be there.

[FantasyWriter]

Best subguild for Nobles: Conartist.

[Delusion]

I always thought that the point OOCly and ICly (though less so) of your House giving you a low stipend was to encourage you (OOCly) to be more involved and (ICly) to be out trying to better your interests (and thusly the House's).  Some houses have a business end that provides income: slave sales for Borsail/Winrothol, taxes from the templarate for public works for Jal/Tennessee).  Others have to rely on the House Stipends that comes from taxes. (probably assigned by the Senate or some Templarate council.)  That where the money probably comes from "on the books."  Then there is murder, corruption, and betrayal, always great sources of income.

Only ever once seen slaves sold in-game. Where's the money for all this intrigue and bribery going to come from? Nobles only have token sums to pass around compared to what commoners can make. They have no tangible power of their own and, let's face it, really very few incentives for minions to join up with and get involved with them - I daresay that for the past several years, nobles have basically never directly employed any of the most powerful PCs IG (making Meso a remarkable exception, which is why I guess he keeps getting mentioned), not counting magickers.


The idea that commoners should be funding nobles is patently absurd, but if that's the done thing, fine, and it should be in the documentation that nobles rely on luring simple-minded sorts with knowledge of braies production into their employ as a primary source of income, never once letting the hapless employee realise that they would be much wealthier and better off if they left the noble and worked alone.

You guys are presenting arguments that seem to be based on an idea of how the game plays rather than how the game actually plays -- namely with people doing a lot of pretending that things are what the docs say they are, even if the IG reality contradicts that.

[Riev]

Admittedly, the cost of operating a Warehouse in game (which is typically a merchant and a couple hunters at best) and the stipend that nobles get (last I checked) were pretty different. I'm not saying a noble should, outright, be able to just afford a warehouse out the gate, but to not even have access to as much coin as a 10day merchant might seem to be a slap in the face?

[FantasyWriter]

Only ever once seen slaves sold in-game. Where's the money for all this intrigue and bribery going to come from? Nobles only have token sums to pass around compared to what commoners can make. They have no tangible power of their own and, let's face it, really very few incentives for minions to join up with and get involved with them - I daresay that for the past several years, nobles have basically never directly employed any of the most powerful PCs IG (making Meso a remarkable exception, which is why I guess he keeps getting mentioned), not counting magickers.


The idea that commoners should be funding nobles is patently absurd, but if that's the done thing, fine, and it should be in the documentation that nobles rely on luring simple-minded sorts with knowledge of braies production into their employ as a primary source of income, never once letting the hapless employee realise that they would be much wealthier and better off if they left the noble and worked alone.

You guys are presenting arguments that seem to be based on an idea of how the game plays rather than how the game actually plays.

Noble HOUSES do not have an endless supply of money, especially for relative nobody noobles. 
There were/are still poor nobles throughout the real world.

I was referring to where the houses get the funds to pay out stipends to individual nobles. Borsail (because of the slave trade) should probably have a higher stipend than Fale, for example.
Ways my noble (Fale) made money:
Gambling racket: Ran a gaming tournament, arranged word of mouth only RPTs for "secret" back alley fights, ran a sliding-odds board for arena matches.
Had a long lived grebber start a resource gathering company that I provide with start up funds and political/social backing against GMHs in exchange for first dibs on goods and a cut of the profits.  
Selling legit information gathered from spies.  Selling misinformation gathered from his own imagination (This stuff was FREE!).
Planted people in the Arm, Byn, and GMHs and tried to help them rise to positions that were useful and profitable to the noble.
Pissed off a lot of other nobles. (this part was the most fun).
Undermined rival noble plots against particular commoner groups gaining loyalty (or at least financial or informative gratuity) from the commoners in questions.
Building a throne of elven sku..... wait, nevermind, that one didn't make him any money.

[bardlyone]

How monumentally difficult a task for the coin (the 2-3k suggested)?

Working off of the prices I've seen so far, that is:

2.5-3.75 pieces of clothes from an expensive clothes shop (using an 800 coin average).

4-6 pieces of jewelry from a regular jewelry store (at 500 coins each, average outside the really low end 100ish coin stuff).

8-12 pieces of clothes from a regular clothing store (250 coins each, average).

16-24 low end pieces of clothing (at 125 coins each, average).

45-67 bottles of alcohol, depending on alcohol (using a 45 coin baseline).

45-68 cups of tea (at 44 coins/cup)

5.71-8.57 rent payments in the building available for noble employees.

The question is, is that on a par with whatever this epic task is, it seems?

[Barzalene]

Let nobles earn, merit, or beg more sid as needed from their houses.

Maybe they already can. My last noble was ten years ago.

[Nyr]

We changed this around the middle of last year.  Noble incomes were increased.  The House of the noble reflects the level of income (as does the rank of the noble in some cases).  The amount that even the poorest House noble PC gets on a weekly RL basis is still greater than what it was for nearly all nobles prior to review.  If nobles need more coin than what they get, they can ask for more, or request it for a particular project, or things like that.  There was also a pay restructuring for many clans at the same time to reflect that noble Houses can afford to pay their people more, meaning that noble employees (working for the House) get paid out of funds that don't come directly from their PC noble.

And yes, if a noble were able to lease a warehouse out of the gate, they'd have plenty of money to do so.  They're not able to for other reasons, but money is not one of those reasons.  Could they pay for a warehouse and have some lackey not associated with the House run it?  Yes, they would start with (and make) enough money to do that.

[HavokBlue]

Not to mention there is an entire Tuluki House dedicated to lending and financing. If you need money, ask the Lannisters.

[Saellyn]

Seriously, nobles have oodles of cash.

request:

I need money to fund a pc's venture to buy a warehouse and start a business. He's paying me 30% of his total income

Answer: Cool beans. Here's more money. Make sure you don't waste it.


Truth: Noble just wanted money to blow on hookers and spice and his family is gonna yell at him later (probably).

[Semper]

So basically wealth is not enough to run plots? If that's the conclusion, then there's something else causing Nobles to hit a roof when they are trying to do something.

Not enough incentive for other PCs to join a House as a minion?
Perhaps red tape from superiors? (preventing a Noble from pursuing a plot, long length of time before plots can happen, etc)
Nobles are not politically powerful enough? (Maybe Templars are too independent from Nobles now?)

I don't know, throwing stuff out there to see what everyone else thinks. (Could probably further discussion apart from financing in a different thread)

[Barzalene]

I don't know, throwing stuff out there to see what everyone else thinks. (Could probably further discussion apart from financing in a different thread?)

This is what I was trying to get at here - http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49003.0.html

[MeTekillot]

Nobles ddon't get paid a lot

[Semper]

Instead of coded wealth, give them coded power. =)

[Armaddict]

I think wealth, as a whole, has become less powerful on Armageddon.  My at-the-moment appraisal of why...

We can nerf economical sides of the game, we can correct prices...that would all be welcome and good, but I think one of the ways this has changed over time is that PC's, as a whole, are living longer now (this is not verifiable).  That means more people able to accumulate wealth, over time, which in turn means to more of it being distributed.  It isn't that nobles need more of it, per se, but that with everyone having more of it, it's become less valuable.  Purely increasing stipends will only exacerbate that problem, I think, unless there's other changes at the same time.  This is why I'm more in favor of an approach that isn't based on nobles having MORE money, but being more entrenched in power-schemes other than wealth, i.e. the functionality of their houses.

As an example, off the top of my head, this can be readily seen in -bounties- on Armageddon.  When I started, a five thousand coin bounty was a huge amount.  People would -turn- bounty hunter for that kind of price, because they could turn around and make that profit, by itself, into customized items or long-term bribe arrangements.  Nowadays, five thousand seems to be the going rate for even small-time bounties...everything else is a relatively piddling amount that will basically get you the 'if I get an opportunity' treatment.

I think nobles should not have unlimited amounts of coin.  Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses, which they use to grease the wheels of nobles and templarates, because they are on a set budget.  Noble houses aren't enterprising ventures, but nobles may engage in enterprising ventures on their own, which gains them favor from their own house, at least in the older platforms.

So, the contribution to the thread?  Higher wealth pyramids don't fix the noble power discussion in itself, I don't think, though it can of course be re-examined to keep them in line with the way of things.

[Is Friday]

Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses

Disagree.

[MeTekillot]

The typical nooble is likely to fall out of their chair when they go to place their first order for an outfit from Kadius

[wizturbo]

This is realistic though.  Historically speaking, having fine clothing was insanely expensive.  A nooble should have trouble affording such things right out of the gates.

[Armaddict]

Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses

Disagree.

I could be very wrong on that point.  It's one of those 'hovering ideas' in the back of my head that came from -somewhere-, but I don't know if that's actually the case.  I meant to use the 'I believe' as a tempering statement to show I was open to clarification on it.  With my current understanding, Houses are given a set amount based off of their standing with the city, which is then distributed downwards through their hierarchy based off of projects and stipends.  Hence, a noble content to live the high life, but not contributing to any House business, has a healthy stipend, but it will be lower than their same-ranked cousin who is running a project that increases the efficiency of their House's duties, etc etc.  Merchant Houses, on the other hand, have a constant income based off of profit, with no ceiling imposed by the ones they answer to, and are thus subject to the heavy taxations and fines, and also, as stated, are prone to giving contributions that gain them favor or greater freedom, due to the nobles just -loving- the idea of having more of that money pie.

[Semper]

I think nobles should not have unlimited amounts of coin.  Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses, which they use to grease the wheels of nobles and templarates, because they are on a set budget.  Noble houses aren't enterprising ventures, but nobles may engage in enterprising ventures on their own, which gains them favor from their own house, at least in the older platforms.

Except that the reality within the game is the exact opposite. A Noble PC is at the beck and call of a GMH PC if they want any kind of special item, or throw a party, or do whatever social needs ask of them. On the flip side a GMH merchant PC could probably play the game never bumping into a Noble PC and still be fine. Something else needs to be considered for a Noble's influence when this kind of power imbalance is possible.

[bardlyone]

The typical nooble is likely to fall out of their chair when they go to place their first order for an outfit from Kadius

Not sure if there's a lot of difference in placed orders vs ones bought at npc shops, but yes, if it's less than 10k, that means 2-5 items would eat up the entire thing, if not exceed it, based on prices from Minia's.

[Talia]

Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses

Disagree.

Armaddict is actually correct. GMHs are vastly more wealthy than noble houses. However, they do not have the political power that noble houses do.